What's up with all the "pronoun" stuff?

[Paquita]

I see the pronoun thing akin to someone introducing himself saying, "Hi, I'm Joseph, you can call me Joe." and if people are comfortable, want to be friends, etc., they'll call him Joe, if they don't, well that's fine too. 

What confuses me is the pronouns most often provided (she/her, they/them, etc.) are the ones used to reference you when someone talks to someone else about you.  They're almost never used politely in your presence unless it's a group conversation.  So why are we telling everyone else how to talk about us to other people?  I get the intent for it to be a subtle, polite way of letting people know about certain important aspects of your life, but why are we not focusing more on direct name prefixes like Mr., Ms., Mx., etc?  Isn't that what prefixes are for anyway?  To let others know about gender and important aspects of your life, like you're a married woman or a doctor?  You can infer pronouns from there. 

If I think about it too much, I can almost be convinced that the obsession with pronouns was created by some evil mastermind that wanted to start controversy and cause division amongst folks by handing them new ways to offend and be offended, but I prefer to blame it on the long-term abandonment of caring about etiquette. 

[ralfy]

^  
Sounds like a bunch of political gibberish.
I'm talking human beings, not politics.
What I was saying- Kennedy was a good man at heart, while Trump is a racist, misogynist, compulsive lying  narcissist.
Yup. Star Trek.  

From JFK himself:

https://yipinstitute.org/article/where-would-jfk-align-politically-today

On the Second Amendment:

"The battle for American freedom was begun by the thousands of farmers and tradesmen who made up the Minutemen -- citizens who were ready to defend their liberty at a moment's notice. Today we need a nation of minutemen; citizens who are not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. The cause of liberty, the cause of American, cannot succeed with any lesser effort." — John F. Kennedy

On taxes:

"A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and a balanced federal budget. Every taxpayer and his family will have more money left over after taxes for a new car, a new home, new conveniences, education and investment. Every businessman can keep a higher percentage of his profits in his cash register or put it to work expanding or improving his business, and as the national income grows, the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues."

On Communism:

"There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the communist world. Let them come to Berlin ... There are some who say that communism is the wave of the future. Let them come to Berlin ... And there are even a few who say that it's true that communism is an evil system, but it permits us to make economic progress. ...let them come to Berlin!"

The only difference between him and the likes of Reagan involves taxes! Do you understand? JFK is what a liberal today would consider a conservative. A classical liberal is someone who takes the best of liberalism and conservatism, which is the point of the Star Trek: Uhura didn't mind being called a negress because words don't hurt her. Lincoln, who's a Republican, still apologized not only for racism that was part of his world but also for his fellow Democrats who that time supported slavery. And what about Kirk: he explains how in their world they learn to tolerate differences, and sees Spock and Vulcan's as models.

Now why would Roddenberry do all that? Because he was a classical liberal who idolized JFK. But as shown in JFK's words he was also a conservative.

Hopefully, this no longer sounds like "political gibberish" to you.

Finally, how do we see this in light of the "pronoun" stuff? What JFK implicitly slows is that there are limits to freedom; at some point, one also has to adhere to things that are part of tradition and authority. In which case, there may be people who think they are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, non-sexual, etc., all the way to 50+ genders:

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users

but for a classical liberal there are only two genders, which means one is either a man or a woman who imagines he or see is someone else, and you can't force others to imagine the same.

Finally, at this point, you should understand that I was not only talking about politics but also about people, and for the simple reason that you can't have one without the other.

[RCMerchant]

[Allhallowsday]

...
Hopefully, this no longer sounds like "political gibberish" to you.

Finally, how do we see this in light of the "pronoun" stuff? What JFK implicitly slows is that there are limits to freedom; at some point, one also has to adhere to things that are part of tradition and authority. In which case, there may be people who think they are heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, non-sexual, etc., all the way to 50+ genders:

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users

but for a classical liberal there are only two genders, which means one is either a man or a woman who imagines he or see is someone else, and you can't force others to imagine the same.

Finally, at this point, you should understand that I was not only talking about politics but also about people, and for the simple reason that you can't have one without the other.

[ralfy]

I see the pronoun thing akin to someone introducing himself saying, "Hi, I'm Joseph, you can call me Joe." and if people are comfortable, want to be friends, etc., they'll call him Joe, if they don't, well that's fine too. 

What confuses me is the pronouns most often provided (she/her, they/them, etc.) are the ones used to reference you when someone talks to someone else about you.  They're almost never used politely in your presence unless it's a group conversation.  So why are we telling everyone else how to talk about us to other people?  I get the intent for it to be a subtle, polite way of letting people know about certain important aspects of your life, but why are we not focusing more on direct name prefixes like Mr., Ms., Mx., etc?  Isn't that what prefixes are for anyway?  To let others know about gender and important aspects of your life, like you're a married woman or a doctor?  You can infer pronouns from there. 

If I think about it too much, I can almost be convinced that the obsession with pronouns was created by some evil mastermind that wanted to start controversy and cause division amongst folks by handing them new ways to offend and be offended, but I prefer to blame it on the long-term abandonment of caring about etiquette. 

Came from "wokes" and is part of a "liberal post-modern" life, i.e., that is, the assumption that everything is relative, including one's gender.

The problem is that the rich are encouraging it as part of "corporate social responsibility," and has now spilled over to government, such that one may be penalized for using the wrong pronouns. For example,

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/enoch-burke-teacher-transgender-pronouns-b2268405.html

https://vancouversun.com/news/fired-worker-awarded-30k-after-restaurant-co-worker-used-wrong-pronouns

Finally, it's also gone beyond pronouns. For example,

https://nypost.com/2023/01/14/sighting-of-trans-womans-penis-in-ymca-locker-room-sparks-tears/

https://www.reformer.com/local-news/coach-parent-daughter-student-sue-in-federal-court-over-mixed-gender-locker-room-in-randolph/article_9c3168a4-59f5-11ed-82f4-57580d013d61.html

https://www.newsweek.com/trans-daughter-school-bathroom-girls-iowa-1790146

[RCMerchant]

[ralfy]

Examples:

https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1648836309752881154

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F_IljWXErM

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQwZtdvnDoz/?hl=en

See

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/996319297/gender-identity-pronouns-expression-guide-lgbtq

Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically assigned at birth, usually on the basis of external anatomy. Sex is typically categorized as male, female or intersex.

Gender is often defined as a social construct of norms, behaviors and roles that varies between societies and over time. Gender is often categorized as male, female or nonbinary.

Gender identity is one's own internal sense of self and their gender, whether that is man, woman, neither or both. Unlike gender expression, gender identity is not outwardly visible to others.

Also,

Gender expression is how a person presents gender outwardly, through behavior, clothing, voice or other perceived characteristics. Society identifies these cues as masculine or feminine, although what is considered masculine or feminine changes over time and varies by culture.

That means you can be biologically male, gender-wise female based on your preference, neither or both else based on what you're thinking at the moment, and neither or both based on any outward characteristics.

[ralfy]

Some more examples:

England and Wales, 2021:

"Women face punishment for using wrong pronouns"

https://insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

Deliberately referring to a trans woman as "he" or "him" may be treated as breaching a prison rule against "using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" and could be brought before an Independent Adjudicator – a visiting judge – who has the power to award added days.

Side note: transgender and women prisoners are locked together.

From 2016:

"Not using transgender pronouns could get you fined"

https://nypost.com/2016/05/19/city-issues-new-guidelines-on-transgender-pronouns/

Employers and landlords who intentionally and consistently ignore using pronouns such as "ze/hir" to refer to transgender workers and tenants who request them — may be subject to fines as high as $250,000.

The Commission on Human Rights' legal guidelines mandate that anyone who providing jobs or housing must use individuals' preferred gender pronouns.

2017:

"New California law allows jail time for using wrong gender pronoun, sponsor denies that would happen"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-california-law-allows-jail-time-for-using-wrong-gender-pronoun-sponsor-denies-that-would-happen

California health care workers who "willfully and repeatedly" decline to use a senior transgender patient's "preferred name or pronouns" could face punishments ranging from a fine to jail time under a newly signed law.

2016:

"You can be fined for not calling people 'ze' or 'hir,' if that's the pronoun they demand that you use"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/17/you-can-be-fined-for-not-calling-people-ze-or-hir-if-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/

And this isn't just the government as employer, requiring its employees to say things that keep government patrons happy with government services. This is the government as sovereign, threatening "civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct" if people don't speak the way the government tells them to speak. Nor is this likely to stay in New York City: The New York officials are arguing that this is just what the New York gender identity discrimination ban requires, and indeed it is part of the standard ideology expressed by many transgender rights activists; the same logic would be easily applicable by jurisdictions that have gender identity discrimination bans, or will have such bans; the federal government is taking the view that existing federal bans on sex discrimination also in effect ban gender identity discrimination, and the New York analysis would equally apply to that view; and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has already taken the view that it is illegal under federal law to persistently call employees by pronouns that correspond to their anatomical sex but not their gender identity, though it has not yet had occasion to opine about "ze."

"Misgendering Is a Human Rights Violation, Canadian Court Rules"

https://www.them.us/story/canadian-court-rules-misgendering-human-rights-violation

Deliberate misgendering in the workplace is a human rights violation, according to a ruling from a Canadian court.

Last Wednesday, the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal ruled in favor of Jessie Nelson, a restaurant worker who filed a complaint against their former employer, Buono Osteria. Nelson, who is nonbinary and genderfluid, claimed the British Columbia Italian restaurant discriminated against them by intentionally using incorrect pronouns. They alleged that their former employers deliberately referred to them using gendered nicknames such as "sweetheart," "sweetie," and "honey."

"Wisconsin Parents Sue School District for Refusing to Misgender Their Child"

https://www.them.us/story/wisconsin-parents-sue-school-district-refusing-misgender-their-child

A renowned hate group is suing a Wisconsin school district for respecting trans childrens' names and pronouns.

Longtime anti-LGBTQ+ organization Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) and nonprofit conservative law firm Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty (WILL) filed a lawsuit against the Kettle Moraine School District (KMSD) in the Waukesha County Circuit Court last Wednesday. The 17-page complaint, which was filed on behalf of two pairs of anonymous parents, alleges that the district's trans inclusive policy violates parents' constitutional rights by allowing children to use their preferred names and pronouns regardless of whether their parents approve.

Related:

"Minnesota Mom Sues Her Trans Child Over Gender Reassignment"

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/minnesota-mom-sues-her-trans-child-over-gender-reassignment-n685266

A Minnesota mom filed a lawsuit Wednesday against her 17-year-old transgender daughter, along with county health boards, a school district and local health care nonprofits.

"It was brought to my knowledge that my son (sic) began receiving hormone replacement treatments from Park Nicollet Health Services to transition from male to female, with medical assistance paying for this," Anmarie Calgaro told reporters in a St. Paul, Minnesota court. "I was not consulted or informed about this in any way."

"Teacher gets $95,000 to settle lawsuit over refusal to use student's preferred name"

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/01/us/kansas-teacher-suspend-settle/index.html

A Kansas teacher who argued she had a religious belief that prevented her from calling transgender or nonbinary students by their preferred names and pronouns reached a $95,000 settlement with school district officials, according to a release from the teacher's attorneys.

Pamela Ricard, who teaches math at Fort Riley Middle School, had been suspended for violating the Geary County Schools' Diversity and Inclusion Policy that requires educators to refer to students by their preferred names and pronouns. In the lawsuit, she said she refuses to use the preferred names and pronouns of transgender and nonbinary students because it violates her religious beliefs.

"Canadian Catholic school student who was suspended for protesting transgender bathroom policy speaks out"

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253702/canadian-catholic-school-student-who-was-suspended-for-protesting-transgender-bathroom-policy-speaks-out

Josh Alexander, a 16-year-old student in the 11th grade at St. Joseph's Catholic High School in Canada, was suspended this month for expressing his religious and moral objections to the school's transgender bathroom policy.

St. Joseph's Catholic High School in Renfrew, Ontario, allows males identifying as transgender girls to use bathrooms designated for females.

[RCMerchant]

[Trevor]

I'm LBGTI (celibate) and I don't use pronouns although I don't have an issue with peeps using them.

[RCMerchant]

^ The thing is, people should be concerned about REAL issues in this country, like gun violence, and not petty s**t like this.

[Trevor]

^ The thing is, people should be concerned about REAL issues in this country, like gun violence, and not petty s**t like this.

Agreed: here by me the corruption is scary, we have water and electricity supply issues and the government thinks only about themselves, not us. ☹️

[Leah]

^ That's what confuses me. The terminology.  
That's the title of this thread!

What do you mean by terminology,  which one goes where? If so then I'll gladly give it to you.
As for people putting pronouns in their name/bio I find that it's an easy way for some to express/be gendered correctly.

[RCMerchant]

^ Sounds good to me.

[Leah]

In a nutshell:
Male/masculine identifying people use he/him
Female/feminine identifying people use she/her
Non binary (think of the third gender) mainly use they/them, occasionally you'll see it/it's, but it's a bit rare as it/it's is a bit dehumanizing.
Now what's newer are demimen and demiwomen. Demimen use both he/him and they/them, demiwomen use both she/her and they/them. If you're wondering why that is I just like to think of it as punk move to be nonconforming.
If you see someone using all three then that person is probably genderfluid, which generally means that the person doesn't care how you gender them.