Hidden meanings

[raj]

Fearless Freep wrote:
>
> Not at all. People who put their heart and soul into a
> work often reveal more about themselves than they intend; the
> themes which they fixate on are often driven by desires,
> fears, etc., that they had no conscious intention of putting
> into the text.
>
> That's true if somehow the divined meaning relates back to
> the author.  For example, relating "Alien" back to a fear of
> rape would only really make sense if the original writer was
> a woman, and still doesn't explain why the movie is so
> effective for men as well.  I would hesitate to reverse
> engineer from that "hidden meaning" back into an opinion or
> judgement on the life or mental state of the author

Usually I put myself in the position of the people in the movie, and seeing the men "raped" in that was probably what (subconciously) scared me.  The theory isn't mine; being 14, I wasn't aware of a lot of subconsious things, but I think it does explain why I was so freaked out; there wasn't a monster going to kill you who might be around that corner, but a monster who was going to make you her b***h.
I don't go around thinking or fearing being raped (probably it is different for women) but if the scenario is presented to me, the idea does pop into my brain.

I do have to disagree with the notion that a fear of rape only makes sense if the writer is a woman.  A good writer should be able to transcend boundaries if he (or she) has a good imagination.  How many directors have actually come across zombies?  One, two?

As for Tolkien, I'm sure that the Hobbit was written before WWII. I agree with what you said

[J.R.]

Actually, I once read a biography of Tolkien, and much of LOTR's themes were based on the industrial revolution in England. Tolkien himself grew up in an area much like the Shire, with rolling hills and pastures. Then as industrial factories creeped into the countryside large smokestacks were erected and the ground was burned black, exactly the thing the hobbits are afraid Sauron would do. In the end his goal was to create a mythology for England, but some other ideas crept in there as well.

On a related note, C.S. Lewis had dinner with Tolkien one evening and was inspired to pen the Chronicles Of Narnia,, which I'm sure you're all aware is a metaphor for Christianity.

[Fearless Freep]

On a related note, C.S. Lewis had dinner with Tolkien one evening and was inspired to pen the Chronicles Of Narnia,, which I'm sure you're all aware is a metaphor for Christianity.

C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were good friends and members of a small group of scholars together called the Inklings.  Lewis was very encouraging of Tolkien and Tolkien would often bring his work on the books to Inkling get togethers and read it aloud and get feedback from the others.  I can't remember which direction it went, but one of the two had a strong hand in the others conversion to Christianity.  Tolkien was far more resistant to using allegory that Lewis was; which is why, although the Silmalrillion, and perhaps LotR have some echoes of Christian thought, they are not nearly as blatant as either the Lewis' Narnia stories or his sci-fi trilogy

[frannie]

i think it does a better job of pricking that primal, subconscious, fear of some animal with big ass teeth ripping you apart

[Chadzilla]

Kind of like Jaws did, but in outer space.

Although the Alien does look a tad phallic in the cranial department, though I doubt I could call it a dickhead to its face and live.

[Sakerson]

From IMDB Trivia on this movie:

Conceptual artist H.R. Giger's designs were changed several times because of their blatant sexuality.

It was my understanding that the tops of the eggs looked too much like a vagina.  A face hugger I can live with....

[Nathan Shumate]

Fearless Freep wrote:
>
> That's true if somehow the divined meaning relates back to
> the author.  For example, relating "Alien" back to a fear of
> rape would only really make sense if the original writer was
> a woman, and still doesn't explain why the movie is so
> effective for men as well.  I would hesitate to reverse
> engineer from that "hidden meaning" back into an opinion or
> judgement on the life or mental state of the author

I dislike the term "hidden meaning," but look at Alien this way:

Let's say that there are parallels to the rape experience.  Whether or not it was an intentional symbolism, the movie works so well because the correspondence is there -- and men, who normally don't have that fear in their lives, react so strongly because this IS a movie in which a man is a victim of a rape-like experience.  Whether or not it's intentional, the parallel is one of the things that makes the movie effective.


> I would say that that is more in the eyes of the reader than
> the writer.  Remember, Tolkien was also a strong Christian
> and many people read into his stories a lot of metaphors to
> Christianity, especially in the character of Gandalf
> representing Christ.  Although I'm a Christian myself, I
> don't really see that at all.   I think that's more wishful
> thinking on the people who want the story to mean and say
> more than it was intended too.   You could say that there are
> a lot of parallels to a *lot* of things in LotR.  Tolkien was
> a professor of mythology, and the parallels between LotR to
> certain European mythologies is stronger than the parallels
> to WW2.   I think it flows the other way, WW2 was almost like
> an epic myth in the scope of the battle in good verse evil
> where evil can be identified to a single  person.  That
> Tolkien was writing a story based on mythology at a time when
> a living epic was being played out doesn't mean that his
> story is about that real-life epic

Yes, but I think you're misunderstanding me.  Tolkien didn't intend to write a novel about WW2, but his outlook and imagination were so informed by his wartime experiences (as well as his perception of industrialization destroying the idyllic English countryside) that parallels couldn't help but pop up.

And yes, there *are* parallels to a lot of things in the LotR; it's a big-ass novel, and there's room for lots of stuff, and being a mythology professor I'm sure Tolkien would agree that parallels and recurring themes are part of what tie mythologies together.  Although the book is expressly NOT a Christian allegory per se (just ask all the fanatical fundies who decry it as a Satanic influence), ideas in it are informed by Christian mythology:  death and rebirth, an apocalyptic battle against evil personified, etc.  But that's just another flavor in the pot, along with the obvious Celtic mythologies, the characteristically British obsession with former golden ages (inculcated, I presume, by the status afforded Roman ruins in the centuries after the Roman withdrawal), etc.

Nathan

[Nathan Shumate]

Lewis was the convert, under Tolkien's tutelage, and thought that his new-found faith was so incredible that he intentionally used his children's books, along with several nonfiction books, to teach Christian ideas.

Nathan