You Can't Say That! Stop It! Stop It!

[The Strange German]

Excuse me for dropping in on this subject, but given the fact that I'm (obviously) German and living in Berlin I'd like to put one or two things in perspective from "our" point of view...

First - there is, like probably everywhere, a small antisemitic minority in our country, and every now and then these folks manage to stir some uproar - but compare vote results from Germany with those of other European countries you'll find the number relatively small (all extreme right-wing parties combined gained about 1.5 % at our recent election, and that includes parties which aren't specifically antisemitic).
I don't want to deny the fact that there are still a couple of Neonazis around here, but their numbers are few and I don't think they're really kind of a threat to societey 'round here. Nonetheless, they're a problem to be dealt with. Currently it is tried to ban one of the more prominent neofascist party, the National Democrats.

Second - it's true that many Jewish organisations/buildings etc. are protected, as you saw on the Berlin synagogue. Alas, you have to see that Berlin has a tremendous number of Arab/Palestinian folk and authorities worry more that the current (and past and probably future) Middle East situation causes an Arab group to stage a bombing etc.

So there is, at least as I see it, not more or less open antisemitism 'round here than in other places of the world - especially since the generation who actually supported Hitler or at least did not anything against him is dying out...
I'll grant you that - regarding the Middle East situation German public tends to lean more towards the Palestinian side (like in "Give them their land and then all's well) - that may be a bit naive, but we've become quite some suckers for peace everywhere, given our experiences with war in the past (that's valid for the Iraq-war-thing, too... it's not that all Germans have turned into Anti-Americans, we just believe in this United Nations thing... naivity, again, I suppose).

Of course, no offense was intended with this post, I'll gladly discuss German politics with anyone via email (as I don't really think this board is appropriate...).

cheers
Markus

[Dano]

I was speaking from my experience and should have mentioned that most Germans I interacted with showed me no signs of antisemitism.

I also hadn't considered Berlin's Middle Eastern population as a possible reason for the APC at the synagogue.

I did notice a lot of disturbing graffitti, but it's fair to argue that that is a small and vile minority.

[Dano]

ChrisK wrote:  Sorry about saying you said all Germans are anti-Semitic, I kind of took it out of context to what point you were trying to make earlier (so right now, I should be kicking my own ass). But your examples do show that indeed their are some who are anti-Semitic, but not all.
*****  No problem.  Of course, I may have just been oversensitive because I was in Germany and I knew the History.  And in fairness to the Germans, there were concentration camps in lots of other countries (Poland, Italy, France, Austria, Czech Republic, Belgium... pretty much every occupied country with the possible exception of Norway -- though I don't know for certain)... and they were mostly manned by locals, not Germans.  There were also lots of people who turned in Jews and shipped Jews to concentration camps that were also not Germans.  Germany was the catalyst and they played the biggest role, but the Holocaust really was a continental European phenomenon, not just a German one.

[Dano]

Abby wrote:  Ha ha ha ha -- right. Sorry -- I was on my way out the door. I'm thinking Melissa Gilbert or whatever her name was. Gilbert played both Frank and Keller -- and she'll be both of them forever in my mind.

*****  : )

They both wrote diaries.  I think that's what messed you up.

[Abby]

Nope, trust me: it's gotta be the Melissa Gilbert connection because I've only ever read Frank's diary. I'm still a dope though.

[jmc]

Bergen-Belsen was in Norway, I believe...

[peter johnson]

Bergen-Belsen was in Poland.
Neither Hellen Keller nor Anne Frank hid Jews from the SS.  I don't know who you may be thinking of.  Anne Frank & her family hid from the SS, unsuccessfully.
Corrie Ten Boom's family did hide Jews from the Nazis, as documented in "The Hiding Place".
In point of actual fact, the residents of the occupied countries of Europe during the Occupation (by Germany) handed over Jews willy-nilly to the Central (National Soc ialist) authority.  The Latvians, especially, prided themselves in their ability to smack Jews over the head with long poles & kill them.
Surprising exceptions to the handing over of Jews occurred -- oddly enough -- in places like Berlin, wherein there was a huge street protest by wives and daughters and friends of persecuted Jews that were listed to be removed from the Berlin suburbs.  Hundreds were saved.
Funnily enough, Hitler himself signed numerous orders to allow individal German Jews to serve in the Wehrmacht, long after Himmler and the SS were in full swing.
The British Army successfully deposed pro-Nazi governments in Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, and Jerusalem.  The head mufti of the Islamic entity in Jerusalem at the time went to Berlin and lived out the war under the aegis of the SS.
peter johnson

[Abby]

No one was saying Melissa Gilbert, Anne Frank, OR Helen Keller was hiding jews. Rather; it was a quick brush off to denote that the issue didn't have anything to do with Schindler.

[Dano]

Neither Hellen Keller nor Anne Frank hid Jews from the SS. I don't know who you may be thinking of. Anne Frank & her family hid from the SS, unsuccessfully.
*****  No, but Anne Frank was hidden (or helped) by a non-Jewish family, wasn't she?  I thought that was Abby's point.  On the History Channel they had a photograph of a wedding reception in WWII Germany and it turned out that the bride and groom were standing outside the house where Anne Frank's family was hiding and in the photo you can see a little girl peeking out from a second story window.  They said it was the last photograph taken of Anne Frank.

[The Strange German]

No problem, I certainly wasn't offended...

You're quite right about the graffiti, yet few of this brainless creeps that spray them actually are anti-semitic (if, their quite anti-all-foreigner, and, therefore, braindead) - they don't really live on Nazi ideology, but mostly are those typical uneducated lower-class kids with no real perspective in life and therefore looking for someone supposedly weaker to pick (and occasionally, I admit, kick) on...

But I think it's fair to say that compared to several other European countries, and especially such countries that used to be quite liberal (thinking of the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark - all countries in which extremist right wing parties actually are part of the government coalitions, or France - think of that Le Pen guy during their last presidential election), our right wing extremist groups are rather smallish and powerless (and would probably be even smaller if not non-existant if they wouldn't get all those freakin' media attention... every gathering of 20 or so so called National Democrats with their stupid uniforms makes worldwide TV coverage - if these few dumbasses would be ignored, we'd probably gotten rid of them quite a long time ago... but all these attention they get just works to their cause, not really successfull, but nonetheless).

In short, most of us, according to the last election 98.5 %, have learned their lesson well ;-)

cheers
Markus