Human Shields

[Ash]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed as a seperate topic before.

In my Total Recall thread someone mentioned Quaid using that guy as a human shield.
When I watched it I remembered that being a particular bloody scene.
The guy gets shot at least 10-15 times and is a bloody mess by the time Quaid throws his body onto people in the lower part of the escalator.

I was wondering if a human body would be sufficient protection to stop bullets.

I imagine that many variables could  be taken into account.
The type of bullet the weapon fires, the body mass of the subject taking the bullets etc...etc.

What would the chances of survival be to use a human shield?

Would you use one?

I would never use a live one but if the person were dead, no problem.

What's your take on this?

[-=NiGHTS=-]

I would, but there are a couple provisos:

1: How much do I like the shield in question?

2:  Is it a woman?  If so, is she hot?

3:  What sort of bullets are flying at me?

[raj]

A single body would be good at stopping M-16 rounds (.223 caliber) or AK-47 rounds (embarassingly, I'm blanking on the AK's caliber, I think 7.43 mm, but that doesn't sound right).  However, the US army's new .50 caliber sniper rifle will go straight through one body -- dunno how many it'll go through.  I've shot 9mm Mauser rifles from The Great War, those suckers went through 18 inch diameter logs (lot denser than people.)  Most handguns generally stop at one person, partly because you'd likely be in close quarters and may not want to shoot through a bad guy into your buddy.

[ulthar]

raj wrote:

> A single body would be good at stopping ... AK-47 rounds (embarassingly, I'm >blanking on the
> AK's caliber, I think 7.43 mm, but that doesn't sound right).
> However, the US army's new .50 caliber sniper rifle will go
> straight through one body -- dunno how many it'll go through.
> I've shot 9mm Mauser rifles from The Great War, those suckers
> went through 18 inch diameter logs (lot denser than people.)
> Most handguns generally stop at one person, partly because
> you'd likely be in close quarters and may not want to shoot
> through a bad guy into your buddy.

Uh, this is not quite right.  An AK-47 round will most definately go through a person; at least one.  The AK-47 cartridge is the 7.62x39 mm, which is ballistically equivalent to a 30-30 Winchester.  Couple the fact that most 7.62x39mm ammunition uses Full Metal Jacket bullets, and overpenetration (passing completely through a body) is quite common.

You don't need to step up to .50 Browning to talk about multiple body penetration.  Anyone who has deer hunted knows this.  A deer is generally 'tougher' than a human, and a through-and-through shot on a deer is common with virtually all modern hunting loads.  This included .243 Winchester, .308 Winchester, etc. etc. Incidentally, this includes the 30-30 Win (and therefore 7.62x29mm).  

Also, 'most handguns' needs to be qualified as well.  First, most of the penetration issue is based on bullet selection.  Most handgun ammunition is designed for self and home defense, so is designed for energy retention not overpenetration.

Now, there are two very common exceptions; Both the .357 Mag and .44 Mag are very well known overpenetration candidates.  Bullets from these handguns have been known to pass completely through a body, and through a wall, to do damage outside the house.  That's why a lot of pop Gun Magazines tend to downplay the role of these magnums in home defense; the possibility of killing a neighbor is significant.  It does, however, depend on the bullet design.

I have loaded .357 Magnum rounds that penetrated four 2L bottles LENGTHWISE, and still went deep enough into moist clay that I would not reach the bullet with my fingers.  That's serious penetration, and would definately not stop at one human body.

Forget what you see in movies and on tv about stuff stopping bullets; it just ain't real.

[Eirik]

Ulthar's right.  An Ak-47 or M-16 will shoot through a car, they'll certainly shoot through a person.  However, having a human shield in front of you would be better than nothing as the high velocity rounds of both weapons would likely deflect if they hit bone and the might keep them from penetrating straight through.  Additionally, depending on who's shooting at you and who your shield is, a human shield might deter the shot from taking place at all.  Finally, remember that when a human body dies or loses consciousness, it becomes far more difficult to hold up (ever been holding up a drunk at the time he passed out?  A lot harder to hold up.).  Once your shield died, you'd almost certainly drop him, especially if you were holding with one arm.

Would I ever use one?  Would anyone else on this board?  I think you'd be pretty surprised what you'd do if someone was shooting at you... .

[Desslar]

Eirik wrote:
>
> Would I ever use one?  Would anyone else on this board?  I
> think you'd be pretty surprised what you'd do if someone was
> shooting at you... .

I don't know what you guys get up to on the weekends but it sounds like one wild party.

[Brother Ragnarok]

Of course, I use 'em all the time.  It works best if you grab an armload of little kids, instead of just one adult, though.  Like holding a bunch of sandbags to your chest.

Brother R

[Mr. Hockstatter]

A lot of bullets have hollow points, they're designed to mushroom out when they enter the body, causing more damage.  It's quite possible that such a bullet wouldn't pass through a body.  Ideally, all of the kinetic energy of the bullet should be absorbed by the body, that way none is wasted.  If a bullet passes all the way through and still has enough evergy left to injure someone else, then you're not using the most effective ammunition for your purpose.  Unless of course you planned ahead and foresaw the need to shoot through one person and get the guy behind.

Realistically though, some bullets would certainly make it through.  Each part of the human body has a different resistance to bullets.  Hit someone in the chest, and the bullet might hit bone and stay in the body.  Hit someone in the stomach, chances are it'll go all the way through because there's only soft tissue and organs to slow it down.  

So no, using somebody as a human shield like that wouldn't work so perfectly as shown in the movie.  It would help, as even the bullets that did make it through would have their velocity reduced substantially, but you'd would still take some hits.

[odinn7]

Hollow points are designed to open up but using them is no guarantee that a round will stay in a body.  As ulthar had stated about magnums, it really doesn't matter what type of bullet is being fired, it's still going through. A .44 magnum hollow point will pretty much not even have time to open up before it's out the other side of the person. I remember watching the Dirty Harry movie "Sudden Impact" where Clint decides to try out his new Wildey .44 Automag and he's out target shooting. His friend is playing with a 12 gauge loaded with buck. They are joking back and forth to each other about their choices of guns. The friend says something about shooting a bad guy with the 12 gauge and "they'd have to strain for fingerprints" then Clint goes into his spiel about the Automag. "Blah, blah...and if used properly, it could remove the fingerprints." That was fairly funny and I do love that Automag but, in a shootout where I'm looking to stop someone, I'm picking the 12 gauge. Why? The .44 is a wicked gun but much of the power is wasted because the bullet is passing through the body. The 12 gauge is not likely to over-penetrate and deliver all of it's energy to the target. You see the human shield thing quite often in movies and it usually is laughable. The same thing goes with knocking a table over and hiding behind it. The other thing I see in movies is the use of a bullet proof vest. The guy wearing it most of the time gets hit and will occaisionally fall down but be fine. Good thing he had the vest on to stop the bullet from going into or passing through....never mind the broken ribs.
Would I use someone as a shield? Cosidering that most people I know, I don't like, I would use them as a shield just because ;-)

[AndyC]

It's funny how actual experience with guns changes the way you look at movies. I've owned a .303 hunting rifle since I was about 18. Found I didn't have the patience for hunting and hardly ever used it for that. But I did do some target shooting on an outdoor range with a buddy of mine - usually old toys, pop cans, and things that were more fun than paper targets.

The thing that impressed me most was drilling clean holes in a 3/8-inch steel plate 100 yards away. Granted, it was with a high-powered rifle and not a handgun, but ever since then, I've questioned every scene in which someone is saved by a tin badge, pocket flask or cigarette case. It's as if the screenwriters just automatically equate metal with bulletproof, regardless of thickness or hardness.



Post Edited (04-26-04 18:51)

[Jay]

It's funny how actual experience with guns changes the way you look at movies.

Try being a computer programmer...

[raj]

Color me embarassed.  I should have known better than to comment on a Saturday night;  stupid broadband connection.

It's been so long since I've shot, guess I need to get back out to the range.

BTW,  motherboards are pretty good at stopping .38 caliber and below.  .357 will get through, barely.

[Andrew]

I think that it would help against some rounds, especially if the meat shield was wearing a ballistic vest or body armor as it was.  The scenes I can think of usually have 9mm  submachine guns being sprayed into the unfortunate.  I can at least believe that a body-armor wearing guard would be a fair shield against one of those.

Oddly, nobody ever thinks to spray some rounds at the legs and feet of the good guy.

[Eirik]

"Oddly, nobody ever thinks to spray some rounds at the legs and feet of the good guy."

Nah, put an automatic weapon in a person's hand and they'll always go for the flashy head/chest shot.  It's human nature.

[ulthar]

Yes, but there WAS that one cool scene in the morgue in "The Rock" where Connery shot the dude in the foot under that desk.   Probably the only move in the movie that made his character believable as ex-SAS.