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October 20, 2014, 01:03:48 PM
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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Television  |  Broadchurch: the American Remix Version « previous next »
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Author Topic: Broadchurch: the American Remix Version  (Read 3698 times)
BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 05:40:19 PM »

Final questions for which I have no answer.

1. I do not expect a fictional story to be totally realistic. It is most likely impossible, but when does an unrealistic story = bad writing?

2. Nor do I expect a story to be totally devoid of plotholes. Again, it is most likely impossible, but when do multiple plotholes = bad writing?

3. Not this TV miniseries, obviously, but what mystery TV series accurately portrays small town life?

4. What if a viewer, who thinks this is the bee's knees, and it is not, take their ignorance of what is good into someplace that is important? Such as the voting booth?

Next time: Final questions for which I have a partial answer.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2014, 05:16:32 PM »

Q: Is someone who molests, but then refuses to kill the victim, even if it means discovery, and then admits to what he is  and takes responsibility for his actions better or worst than someone who refuses to molest, but then kills the victim to prevent discovery, and then when captured, refuses to admit to what he is and refuses to take responsibility for his actions.

A: Of course, the 1st is taken from the book "Taken by the Wind," and the 2nd is from the TV series "Broadchurch." With the 1st being better than the 2nd, as he may molest, but he refuses to kill like the 2nd, and he takes responsibility for his actions, again unlike the 2nd. And the 1st is more realistic than the 2nd, for in order to make it better the writer of the 2nd makes it worst, or to make a better character the writer creates a worst characterization. For we know how such characters behave in fact. They have written books on the subject. Their victims have written books on the subject. People who work with them have written books on the subject. And even their spouses have written books on the subject. And none of it applies to the character in the TV series, who is unrealistically written.


Q: There is no question that children make the best victims, but does a boy child or a girl child make the best victim?

A: Of the previous 28 novels and mysteries read, from various authors, from various countries, and taking place in various times, 12 had child victims or potential victims or (43%) of kidnapping, murder, and/or rape (both forcibile and statuatory.) The age of the victims ranging from under 1 to 17. Of these victims there were 5 or (42%) that were both boys and girls.  4 or (33%) were girls only. And 3 or (25%) were boys only. Or to divide it out: Girl victims (52.94%) and boy victims (47.06%) With no answer as to whether boys or girls made the best victims. But, there was one interesting thing that came out of it. In the books with girls being only the victims, boys could have been exchanged for the girls with some change in the story. But, in the books with boys being only the victims, boys had to be the victims. Girls could not have been exchanged for the boys, for if such was done, the story would cease to exist.

Next time: 1 final question, and then after that, some final thoughts.

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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2014, 05:22:37 PM »

The whole scenario of the boat to transport the dead victim from where he was killed to where he was found, then the burning of the boat to destroy the evidence, is really not credible, but it gets worst.

So, what type of boat was it?

At first, I thought it might be what is known as a Montauk Whaler, but it's not. Then in a fluke, I was reading a mystery set in the Shetland Isles of Scotland, and on the book jacket, there was a picture of a boat very similiar to the one in the TV mini-series. A boat called a Shetland yoal.

At first used as a fishing boat in the Shetland Isles, it is now used in racing regattas in the Shetland Isles. While it can take a mast with a square sail, propulsion, both in racing and in normal use, is by oar. It needs as little as 3 people with 2 oars each, but in racing the crew is normally 6 people with 1 oar each, and with a coxswain calling out the stroke.

The size is . . .
23'5" length
14'10" keel
5'8" beam

Clinker construction and all wood.

Normally, it is an easy boat for 1-man to launch from a trailer. Just back the trailer into the water and then float the boat off, but the man in the TV miniseries did not launch it from a trailer. He had to push the boat, what I took to be some 40, 50, 60 meters along a flat sandy beach into the water, but first as the boat was most likely resting upside down, he had to lift it upright and turn it over on its keel, before he pushed it into the water. At least the writer of the script didn't make him row the boat, but use the outboard motor, which was attached to the boat by a chain of sorts. Which means he would need a bolt cutter to cut the chain, whic is plausible. And what is not plausible, and while I did not find out what the boat weighs, it probably weighs more than 1 man can manhandle into the water, and certainly more than 1 man can lift upright.

Which is the problem, as I see it. The script writer making no effort to find something that 1 man could manhandle into the water, such as a regular rowboat, but just throwing anything into the story, plausible or not. Credible or not.
Or, a case of bad writing (IMHO.)

What is more the owner of the boat is portrayed as being too blase about somebody borrowing his boat without his permission, as this is not--apparently--the only time it has happened. Too blase like so many characters in the TV miniseries. And again bad writing.

Next time: 1 final question and then some final thoughts on the TV miniseries.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2014, 04:30:23 PM »

Who is the most important character in a mystery, including this one?

The most important? The victim. For without the victim, that story ceases to exist.

The 2nd most important? The villain. For the villain is the actor who initiates the action. Everyone else, for the most part, then becomes a reactor, reacting to the villain's action.

And the least important, especially here. The hero or heroine. Here . . .

take away 1 policeman and you have 1 policeman.

take away 2 policemen and you have . . .

the reporter who seeks to solve the murder.

the minister who seeks to solve the murder. Indeed, there are a couple of mystery series set in small towns in present day England, where the local minister is the hero who takes the lead in trying to solve a murder.

the victim's parents. Who are dissatisfied with the job the police are doing and seek to find their young son's murderer themselves.

the victim's older sister and her boyfriend. Who are dissatisfied with the job her parents are doing, with the job the police are doing and seek to find her younger brother's murderer themselves.

or any of the other suspects, who are not the murderer, who are trying to clear himself or herself of suspicion of the murder by finding the murderer themselves.

And then we have the two most interesting characters who could be the hero.

the grandmother of the victim who seeks to find the murderer of her young grandson. Frankly, I hate those know-it-all types like Jessica Fletcher and Jane Marple, but thinking about it, they know-it-all because they have seen it all and heard it all, because they have lived in the same place all their lives, and knowledge about what is normal and abnormal is often what is needed to solve a crime.

the psychic guy. A completely unnecessary character and story line the way the story is written, but what if we make him the hero who seeks to find murderer of the young victim in the story. And maybe his advantage is that he more "sensitive" to everything that is going on around him than most of the other characters in the story.

So, what we get is a story with too little face time with the two most important characters in the story: the victim and the villain, and too much face time with the two least important characters: the heroes, who are actually also the least interesting of the possible heroes in the story.

Next time: I said this would be the last question. I lied. There is to be one more question, or who is as "bad" a writer or maybe as overrated a writer as the writer as this one. And then some final thoughts on the story.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2014, 12:07:15 PM »

Q: Are there any writers out there as "bad," or maybe I should say as "overrated," as the writer who wrote the British original version of "Broadchurch?" Unfortunately, yes. But, first . . . ? Let me say that from everything I have heard this man say and what has been said about him, he's a decent human being. No, more than that. He's more than a decent human being, but as a writer . . . ? His writings suffer from the same problems (IMHO) that "Broadchurch" suffers from.

1. Unbelievable character reactions.
2. Ridiculous events.
3. Unrealistic characters.
4. Incredulous character actions.
5. Too long of a story.

Plus . . .

6. Too many characters that are not different, which makes the story hard to follow. Even in the graphic novel version of the story.

So what makes the writer so overrated, when (IMHO) there are a lot of similar writers who are far better.

the Chris Piersons
the Dennis McKiernans
the Douglas Niles
the Margaret Weises
the Terry Brooks
the Tracy Hickmans

Ignorance of what is out there that is better. For example . . .

in the writer's writing, there is a scene where you have a 6-year-old boy nursing on his mother's teat.

Now compare that scene with the following scene from the writings of Chris Pierson.

After some time apart, a mother and son, the boy not much older than the other boy in the other writer's writings, are reunited. And they are both sitting on the steps of a building, totally exhausted:  physically, mentally, emotionally. And the boy lays his head on his mother's shoulder. And she not only allows him to rest his head on her shoulder, but she puts a comforting arm around him.

Now what is better about that scene than the other scene. It is . . .

more realistic
less ridiculous
more maternal
less perverse
more warmth to it
and it's less "shocking."

"Shocking." Why the other writer's writings are said to work. Ah, no. Not really. Or they should not work. The reasons for which we will get to later, but thinking about it, that is why "Broadchurch" does not work as a well written work. The writer tries to "shock" his audience like the other writer.

As for the other writer, if one has not yet guessed, who I am talking about, I am talking about George R. R. Martin, and his work "Game of Thrones."

Next time: that was finally the final question, so we'll have some final thoughts about why "Broadchurch" is so poorly written (IMHO), and why maybe people so overrate it.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 05:31:02 PM »

The standard for unreasonable stupidity by a victim is "Broad church," because the reasons for the stupidity of the young victim are either non-extant or so murky ([1] maybe the victim got smacked around a couple of times by his father) that they are unclear. Being smacked around is bad, but it is also bad writing.

On the other hand . . .!?

The standard for reasonable stupidity by a victim, because reasons are given for the victim's stupidity, is the boy scout in Ken Russell's "Lair of the White Worm," where the young scout is stupid enough to get into a strange car with a stranger, then compounds that stupidity by allowing the stranger to take him home, instead of the youth hostile, where he wants to go. But, there are clear reasons for his stupidity.

(1) He is hungry. And (2) tired, coming some 8 miles or more by hiking the distance since 1:00 p.m. that afternoon and carrying a heavy backpack besides. The (3) strange car is a classic Jaguar XKE, and the (4) stranger driver is a sexy, beautiful woman. What boy could resist?

Thus, there is no need for a rainstorm to be written into the story, but one is written into the scene, so he is now also (5) wet and (6) cold and (7) chilled to the bone.

And when she has him at her home, she has him (8) out of his wet scout uniform and underwear and (9) into one of her comforters, which makes him vulnerable to whatever plans she has for him, and then (10) out of that and (11) into the bath, which makes him even more vulnerable to whatever plans she has for him, where (12) she bathes him with a loofah, while (13) coming on to him. And during all this time in her home, (14) she is plying him with brandy to further lower his inhibitions. And on an empty stomach, too. Not good, but good writing.

Next time: the one thing that "Broad church" is good for.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2014, 02:48:24 PM »

It is good for . . . ?! And it may be a low standard, but it does serve as a standard by which to measure other writers and their mysteries and other similar stories.

Thus, a measurement of . . .
HD=Harry Dolan's "The Last Dead Girl"
with . . .
MC=Marc Chibnall's "Broadchurch"

1. HD: Of human behavior, he seemingly has understanding.
MC=Of human behavior, he seemingly has no understanding.

2. HD=Thus, he does not soft soap and soft peddle sex.
MC=Thus, he seemingly soft soaps and soft peddles sex.

3. HD=Thus, his villains are credible human beings and villains.
MC=Thus, his villain is not a credible human being and villain.

4. HD=Thus, they are scary.
MC=Thus, he is not scary.

5. HD=And dangerous.
MC=Nor dangerous.

6. HD=Thus, revealing villain is like getting smacked between the eyes by a sledge hammer.
MC=Thus, revealing villain is like no impact.

7. HD= Wish for more explanation, but villain's motivation is provided.
MC=No or little motivation for villain is provided.

8. HD=Some flashbacks work better than others, but flashbacks work.
MC=Flashbacks do not work.

9. HD=Most twists work well.
MC= Most twists work poorly.

10. HD=Realistic emotions are in control, except at the end, which is why . . . (See 11.)
MC=Unrealistic emotions are out of control or non-extant.

11. HD=the ending fails.
MC=the ending also fails.

12. HD=Two stories which do not really merge.
MC=Too many story lines, but one story which works, but would work better with better writing.

Apparently, a prequel to two older books, Dolan is hard to get into, or, at least, I found it hard to get into, but bear with it. It is one of the best written books out there. At least, it is better written than Chibnall's "Broad church."

Next time: something else the British original is good for.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2014, 05:58:32 PM »

This is not only a standard by which other works of fiction can be measured, but it also serves as a good intellectual experience. Though, unlike "Maleficent," which gets better and better, the more you think about it, this gets worst and worst the more you think about it and compare it to better writings by better writers. For example . . .

As loosely focused as the story is in "Broad church," you do get something on . . .

the police
their families
the victim
the victim's family
the townspeople, including the town's minister
the children of the townspeople, including the victim's best friend
the suspects
their families
and the killer.

But, if you compare it to Amanda Kyle Williams' who is the better writer, "Don't Talk to Strangers," which is better written, and which is tightly and solely focused on the hero and the case of the 2 dead girls and 1 missing girl, she is investigating, unlike Chris Chibnall's "Broad church," which is loosely focused on several stories, you do not only get all the above, but also . . .

a hero who is not police, so one gets something on her and her . . .
boyfriend and
the friends she left behind.

And you get all this in and with more detail than Chibnall's " Broad church."

And not only more detail, but also fewer problems, both major and minor.

Minor
The town in "Broad church," (15,000 population) is so large, that some do not even know who delivers the mail. That is not true with Williams, whose town (2882 population) is so small, that not only does everyone know who delivers the mail, but everyone else in the town, as well.

Major
The police in "Broad church" may be likable, but they are clearly less than competent (i.e. no victimology done, etc.) That the case is solved almost solely and merely by happenstance. Again, unlike Williams, where the police may be unlikable, some of them, but they are none the less competent (i.e. victimology done, etc.) That the case is not solved by happenstance nor luck, as in "Broad church," but by good, solid police work.

Thus, a better writer than Chibnall and a better written story than "Broad church," and one to be sought out and read.

Next time: the villain.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2014, 04:29:29 PM »

Different author.
Different book.
Different location.
But, same time period.

"All the elements of masculine sexuality . . . 'dominance and power, youth . . . power over innocence, and of course, performance. If you combine these elements into a single fantasy, into a single act, you have then created the ultimate sexual encounter . . . one that contains all the necessary sins to make it forbidden and irresistible dominance over the subject, the destruction of youth, physical coercion, the corruption of desire. And that is precisely why it is so powerful.'"

Andrew Brown's "Cold sleep Lullaby" p. 178

Did the writer of "Broad church" know what he was doing, when he created the villain for the limited TV series? Because what you see above, is not only from a much better writer, but describes the villain in "Broad church" to a T.

Now, taking what we know from the series, let us extrapolate something that is logical and credible, from what we are given about the villain. Recently, the villain's wife gave birth to a child, their son, so the villain was potent an year ago, but what if within that year, for some reason--emotionally? mentally? physically?--he has become impotent. And the only way he can now get it up is to be hugged by a young boy. With both of them clothed. With both of them naked. With one or the other naked. That is what the writer for the series may have created. Does the writer for the series even know this?

Next time: We'll continue talking about the villain in the series.

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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2014, 06:47:04 PM »

I was watching "Heathers" for the 3rd time. A film I don't particularly like, and which I think is overrated, but while watching it, I did realize something I had not realized before, and that is that the villains are actually better conceived than the heroes, and not on purpose, but seemingly by accident. Which may be why, unlike most fans of the film, my favorite character is not the heroes in the film, but one of the villains. Namely, Kurt. As there is more there than one first supposes. Also . . .

The villains are often more important than the heroes, because they initiate the action and become the actor in the story, while the hero often only reacts, and thus becomes the reactor in the story. They are also often more colorful than the hero. More entertaining. More complex. More interesting. And if played by a foreign actor, better acted than the hero, which is often played by an American.

Of course, none of this applies to the villain in "Broad church," except for being more important than the heroes.

So, unlike Kurt in "Heathers," I have no empathy for the villain in "Broad church." Who I do have empathy for in that, is the young victim. Who I think does not get the respect that a victim deserves. especially, if the victim is a child, as here. And those are the victims, especially in films and TV shows, for whom I have the most empathy. Those that don't get the respect that I think they deserve as victims.

And as for what heroes I feel empathy. Those that seemingly have an emptiness inside of them. And emptiness that is so big, that they are willing to give up their lives to fill it.

Next time: we'll continue to talk about the villain in "Broad church," and all the contradictions inherent in the character.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2014, 05:09:30 PM »

There are two types of villains with mass contradictions.

Those that are so complex and complicated and credible and well-written by someone who knows what they are writing about, and then there are those that are not credible, poorly written, and written by someone who apparently does not know what they are talking about. One guess as to which of these applies to the villain in "Broad church."

01. The villain is a pedophile and will eventually want sex from his victim.
The villain is not a pedophile and will never want sex from his victim.

02. He is a psychopath.
He is not a psychopath.

03. He is a sociopath.
He is not a sociopath.

04. He is a recidivist.
He is not a recidivist.

05. He has offended before.
He has not offended before.

06. He will offend again.
He will not offend again.

07. The killing was deliberate.
The killing was accidental.

08. He is careless about leaving clues.
He is not careless about leaving clues.

09. He is stupid.
He is not stupid.

10. He shows no sympathy for his victim.
He shows sympathy for his victim.

11. He wants to be dominant.
He does not want to be dominant.

12. His final act of dominance. Leaving the victim's body in a public place.
Or not?

13. He wants the victim's body discovered and is a thrill killer.
He wants the victim's body discovered, but he is not a thrill killer.

14. He is emotionally detached from his violent behavior.
He is not emotionally detached from his violent behavior.

15. He has no remorse for what he has done.
He has remorse for what he has done.

16. He is in denial about what he has done and does not take responsibility for what he has done.
He is not in denial about what he has done and takes responsibility for what he has done.

17. The character is not credible.
The character is credible.

Next time: how the writer is a mass of contradictions.
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 05:32:08 PM »

Maybe the villain is such a mass of contradictions, because the screenwriter is himself a mass of contradictions.

1. He has more respect for the villain, then he does for the victim.
He does not have more respect for the villain, then he does for the victim.

2. He tries to make the villain a "better" person.
He is not trying to make him a "better" person.

3. If this is what he is trying to do, then he fails.
If this is what he is trying to do, then he does not fail.

4. He muddies the waters of the story.
He does not muddy the waters of the story, but makes all clear.

5. He little understands or has no understanding about what he writes.
He understands about what he writes.

6. He does not have the courage to write about what he writes.
He does have the courage to write about what he writes.

Next time:

But, 1st . . .?! The American version, called "Grace point" has started to play on American TV, as I do not have a TV set, I can't see it that way, but it is also apparently available by streaming on the world wide web, and more importantly, it is free. I may try to watch it that way. But, till then . . . as we wind down . . .

Next time: a reminder why the British original is such an unmitigated, overrated piece of crap. Till then . . .?!
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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2014, 05:38:24 PM »

If you do not already know, then I think much of the writing for this British limited series is overrated crap, but what about the other aspects of the series?

Crap, or, at least many of the scenes are poorly presented. The would include, but not limited to . . . as compared to similar scenes from other stories.
1. the funeral scene
2. the confrontation with the paparazzi.
3. the murder scene.
4. the victim's father's reaction to hearing his young son's killer confessing to killing the boy.
5. the wake for the victim.

And as a reminder as to why I think much of the writing is crap.
1. Character(s) . . .
a. . . . actions are unbelievable.
b. . . . reactions are unrealistic.
c. . . . motivations are murky or non-extant.
d. . . . emotions expressed are either overblown or under inflated.
e. . . . behave stupidly without justification for behavior.
f. . . . misbehavior ignored. No repercussions.
g. . . . of victim and villain, the two most important in the story, are underwritten.
h. . . . are just not credible, for the most part.

2. Story lines . . .
a. . . . unnecessary added.
b. . . . dropped without explanation as to why they are dropped.

3. Story . . .
a. . . . lacks intensity of similar stories.
b. . . . lacks focus.
c. . . . lacks logic.
d. . . . lacks continuity
e. . . . lacks tension.
f. . . . and like George R. R. Martin, the story is "shocking." As to what is wrong with that, this . . .

A. It is unrealistic, as one character, in a better story, pointed out "Mankind is not by nature totally violent."
B. It loses effect quickly. Seeing a man slapped is "shocking." Seeing him slapped more than once is not.
C. It is dangerous. One has to constantly ramp up the violence to be "shocking."
D. It is based on audience ignorance, as to many audience members think this is typical behavior, when it is not.

4. Miscellaneous
a. Multiple plot holes.
b. Seemingly no or little respect shown for young victim by writer.
c. Poorly plotted, as villain seemingly comes out of nowhere.
d. When most mystery stories now contain one or more characters that are gay or lesbian, that there are no gay or lesbian characters in this one is a point against it (IMHO.)
e. Writer seemingly lacks the courage to tell the story that should be told.

A. child kidnapping
B. child murder
C. child pornography
D. child prostitution
E. pedophilia and other child -philias
F. and child rape videos

. . . are all ugly subjects, but other better writers writing better stories have faced up to these subjects more or less squarely. They have not danced around the subject as this writer seems to do.

Nor does the writer seem to have the courage to have a scene where the victim is found naked or nearly naked, as is often the case for such crimes in real life. Both to male and female and to young and old. As to why such occurs, again, as pointed out in another better story similar to this . . .

A. Dehumanization and humiliation of dead victim.
B. Psychological need of villain to to show dominance over victim.
C. Destroys evidence, except that which is kept as souvenir of victim

f. and police are seemingly incompetent with no explanation as to why they are so incompetent.

Next time: reasons as to f directly above.

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BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2014, 03:24:13 PM »

Mostly, on the previous posts, we have been talking about my opinions. This time we are going to get away from my opinions and on to the facts. Not my facts, but facts from other better writers taken from their better writings, or "7 Reasons as to Why the Police in 'Broad church' Are Written as Being Incompetent."

1. They do not know how to meet, when in a better mystery, by a better writer, the police are always meeting. Either formally at the station or informally at the pub. Why?
a. To share ideas with each other, thus to share their ideas with the reader.
b. To share what they have done in the past, thus to share these with the reader.
c. To share what their future actions will be, thus to share these with the reader.
d. To share how close they are to finding the book's villain, thus to share this with the reader.

Little of this occurs in "Broad church," so . . .?!
The viewer has little idea what has been done, what needs to be done, what their ideas are on how to catch the villain, nor how close they are to catching the villain.

2. They do not know how to prioritize.
When the federal marshal service of the U.S. government gets an arrest warrant for a child kidnapper, a child murderer, a child pornographer, a child rapist, that warrant goes to the top of the stack of the outstanding warrants to be served.

That does not only not happen in "Broad church," but they allow themselves to work short handed, because some of the police have been sent off to provide security for an event outside of town, even when the best chance to catch a murderer is within the first 24 48 72 hours. And there is no hint, that they even asked that the missing police be sent back to catch the murderer, and we are told that the police that were needed, but missing, returned to town several days after the murder.

3. They seemingly do not know the value of a trace of semen on the victim.
No one wants to see another child sexually assaulted and/or murdered, but to be happy that no trace of the murderer's semen can be found in the victim's anus, mouth, on his body, on his clothes, when that is one of the best clues as to who is the murderer, that is just inexcusable.

A semen trace is so valuable in certain cases that in a better story by a better writer, the semen trace found on a victim was tied to the semen trace found on a previous victim, which the hero had a personal relationship. Thus, find the murderer in one case, and you have solved both cases.

The next three are from the same story.

4. The police here seemingly do not know how to use a computer and the world wide web to seek information. In this other story, when a girl goes missing the police are immediately doing a computer search for any previous crimes that are similar and to any and all information about the victim that the friends and family may not know about the victim.

5. The police here do not have an in-town expert who can go into the victim's computer to find any pertinent information that may solve the case, but have to send the computer out of town, and thus delay the receipt of the information. When the other story, the police have someone in town that they can send a computer for the information to be extracted. Thus speeding up the receipt of the information, even when this town is not even half the size of the other town.

6. No victimology is apparently done for the victim. And when this happens for a previous victim in the other story, the other story's hero frankly states that this is police incompetence at work.

7. Preventing contamination of the crime scene.
a, The victim's hands were not bagged to prevent contamination, even though, with a strangulation murder, there may be some trace of the murderer found under the victim's fingernails.

b. The tent put up over the victim and the crime scene seemingly was not put up as fast to prevent contamination as it should have been.

Next time: a scene that should have been in "Broad church," but was not.
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