Okay, this topic may bother some people, but this is actually a good place to RANT. I'm talking about how films (especially b films) tend to depict people in the military, and all the craziness therein. I've never been in the military myself, but I do have respect for those who serve and there are some things depicted in films that even *I* know are flat out idiotic.
Now, when I say this, I'm not talking about what are, to me, picayune things, like, "Hey, that admiral isn't wearing the right number of a medals" or, "Hey, the Army guys service weapon is not the type they use in that area."
No, I'm talking about BIG things, like guys with (supposed) military training doing incredibly STUPID things. Yes, I know history has it's share of military blunders (that famous battle where they sent several hundred guys armed with only swords to fight in a gun battle, for instance), and I know in every group there are going to be people who are not exactly Mensa material, but STILL.
Okay, here's my picks for some of the dumbest actions by military guys in movie history.
House of the Dead 2
Believe it or not, this sequel is actually WORSE than the original. While the original had some "so bad it's good" moments lines and unintentionally funny dialog, this film just sucked balls. From a military point of view, we've got a small group of guys going into a zombie infested college campus to retrieve something or other (been a bit, don't remember all the details.) In addition to doing such as not bothering to stay together, and other crazy things, at one point a guy goes into a dorm room, and, seeing a camera and a dead women (as in, "injured in the head and not coming back as a zombie" dead) he decides to
Wait for it...
Pose the girls corpse and TAKE A PICTURE WITH HER.
As my friend from work said, "What the hell?"
This reminded me a lot of the my next incident..
Night of the Zombies aka Hell of the Living Dead aka Zombie Creeping Flesh (this film is review on this site btw http://www.badmovies.org/movies/nightzombies/index.html (http://www.badmovies.org/movies/nightzombies/index.html) )
Not only do none of these idiots seem to know how to shoot someone in the head (course, that's standard in a lot bad foreign zombie films), at one point one of the army guys, in the midst of searching a house, comes across a large closet. He puts down his gun, opens the closet and begins trying on the WOMEN'S clothing within.
And now, probably the biggest one of all.. moving away from the horror genre.
Full Metal Jacket
I know, a lot of people with argue with this one, but the scene where Sarge is yelling at Pyle and gets shot seems REALLY dumb on his part. Yes, I suppose you could say it was in the Sarge's character to believe he's firmly in control of every situation, but, in my humble, non-military opinion, insulting someone with a LOADED weapon never seems like a good idea.
Well, that's all I can think of off-hand. I could get into the numerous instances in films where the military is portrayed as borderline psychopaths who just want to come in and kill whatever threat is depicted in the film (usually with scientists being the reasonable, trying to tell them hardheaded military guys that just blasting away at the enemies won't work) but I think I've talk long enough.
Any great examples you guys want to give?
It's interesting that back in the wholesome, patriotic 1950s movies the military usually worked closely with scientists to defeat the aliens or monster or whatever. Now, most movies portray the military as the guys who won't listen to anyone. This generally results in large-scale mayhem and destruction. Sometimes, even the scientists are stupid and pig-headed in modern movies. Luckily, in the end, someone like Bruce Willis (who is smarter than the m,ilitary AND the scientists) shows up to save the day.
Oh, come on! Only ONE reply? Thought for sure this would generate a lot of discussion...
Ah, well.
You stated it best in the firts post, BTM, no more is needed :wink:
However, if spamming is okay for a reply it should be known that the board's new Interactive B-Movie contains an idiot military commander... well, corporal technically... http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,116331.0.html :bouncegiggle:
I see stuff that drives me up the wall all the time. It's remembering where it all comes from that is my problem. Okay, how about "AI Assault" for one. The crack military team goes in to stop the two killer robots that are loose. The robots have ultra armor, so the special forces guys need a laser to cut through it. They take one laser. They also take one radio and go in without any sort of air support on call.
The tactics used by the highly training team are as follows: clump together, stand still, shoot in the offhand, and get killed once the robot walks up to them.
Andrew, you stillneed to do that essay on 'Stupid movie military tricks'. I wanna hear a rant from an expert!
Yeesh!
You ever wonder, if the view of the military Hollywood has is infulanced by the film makeing process? Is the military a standin for all the hamhanded, incompitant decision makeing that takes place in the boardrooms of lala land?
That might explain a LOT!....
The LT in Aliens telling the marines not to use their guns with no mention of why always annoyed me (even though Gormon is portrayed as inexperienced and a bit of a tool). If he'd said that they were under th reactor and gunfire might make it go boom, I don't think Vasquez would have disobeyed the order.
The soldiers in Dog Soldiers seemed pretty believable. Knew when to abort the training mission, decamped to (what they though was) a more secure location, tried to establish contact with HQ, the list goes on.....
Quote from: BTM on October 16, 2007, 10:35:27 PM
Now, when say this, I'm not talking about what are, to me, picayune things, like, "Hey, that admiral isn't wearing the right number of a medals" or, "Hey, the Army guys service weapon is not the type they use in that area."
aka 'pulling a wyrewizard' :smile:
There is some hope though. I know it's only natural for a lot of film makers to have a somewhat cynical view of the military, but in Transformers, the soldier types turn out to be really good guys, while the secret organization guys, who you'd think would be the voice of reason, turn out to be the a***oles in a lot of ways.
OK I'll step up on this one. This just from a couple of movies I caught this week.
28 Weeks Later. Wow.. Where to start on this one? Hmm how about using more than 4 snipers to cover a 50 mile perimeter? Then there is the 2 kids that get out. Military guy" hey we got 2 kids sneaking out on this camera!" Commander" hmm, ok guys go for a quick nap, maybe have a shower and then get out their and find them at their house!" What the hel? I don't even want to get into the snipers.. Plus what is up with the helicopter that flies around the whole movie? He is not obeying orders.. Where is he getting fuel?
Godzilla (1998)"ok so when the 100ft tall lizard shows up for the fish, I want only 10 of you guys shooting with anything over .50cal. Everyone else, hmm 7.62 should do it!" wow. If that was me, as soon as that lizard turned up I would have pumped about 100 LAW rockets into his head. At least. Oh and yet again we have a moronic helicopter pilot ( watching movies has led me to believe that most USAF pilots fly only in 2 dimensions.) When Godzilla is chasing them after the military has finished shooting them with spitballs and BB guns, why don't they fly UP?!? C'mon, they are still well within ground effect, they could have shot pretty much straight up. But noooo, they fly in between all the skyscrapers about 50ft off the ground. Duh.
Well that's a couple right off the top of my head. :cheers:
In looking at military in B movies, and monster movies in particular, you must never forget that they are essentially plot devices and not accurate portrayals of any reality whatsoever.
To take another example, what I call the 30-30 immunity. In a classic 1950s monster movie, quite early on there is usually a moment when the monster is shot at (typically with a 30-30 lever action rifle), of course with no effect. Now, the only reason for this sequence is to demonstrate that BULLETS CAN'T STOP THIS THING. There is even a variant on this in Tremors.
Many film sequences with the military have the same function. They only serve to underline that THE MILITARY ARE POWERLESS, and that it is up to the hero to figure out some smart way of dealing with the thing. In that kind of scenario you don't want your military to be very smart and/or very capable. Otherwise you'd have a very boring finale such as
Monster threathens major city
Air force jet drops smart bomb on monster
Monster explodes
Roll end credits.
Quote from: AlexB on October 25, 2007, 09:45:28 AM
Otherwise you'd have a very boring finale such as
Monster threathens major city
Air force jet drops smart bomb on monster
Monster explodes
Roll end credits.
Well, you can always go with the route they did in "Tarantula" where the military can deal with the creature - the problem is contacting them and getting them there. "The Beast from 20,000" fathoms had a great take on this. The military was completely capable of seriously wounding the creature once they brought it to bay. Problem was: doing so would unleash a prehistoric plague.
Ah, but then you'd need to do some work on your scenario. Find out what the military can and cannot do, figure out a way round it....
Much easier to have incompetent military.
Ah yes. Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. Rings true all the time. In this case, for both the screenwriters and the military that they write.
I'd say that the root of the problem is that not much people trust the military this days, as oppossed to the 50s, when WWIII was a fresh memory. The defeats in Korea and Vietnam changed the way people looked at the military.
Then everybody followed Hollywood's new vision on military and the whole thing became a great f*cking cliché. As someone said, just put moronic soldiers and then we don't need to worry about this part of the movie.
As a leftist of sorts, I don't find the whole thing as annoying as others do, but I do recognise it's reached and exceeded all limits. As Frank Miller put it when he rambled about "300", when there's trouble you don' send diplomats to negotiate, you send soldiers to kick some butt. And we shouldn't be afraid to recognise that they often achieve their goals.
QuoteI know, a lot of people with argue with this one, but the scene where Sarge is yelling at Pyle and gets shoot seems REALLY dumb on his part. Yes, I suppose you could say it was in the Sarge's character to believe he's firmly in control of every situation, but, in my humble non-military opinion, insulting someone with a LOADED weapon never seems like a good idea.
I have to say, from 11 years of military experience, that is EXACTLY how many Drill Sergeants would have handled it. You'd have to be in boot camp to realize the situation, , physically exhausted, sleep deprived, and trying to learn a bunch of stuff that's fairly forign to you, ,all at the same time. I ween through Army boot camp back in the late 80's, and I can see a bunch of truth in how they depicted the situation in FMJ. We had a private try and commit suicide, and the DI pretty much yelled at him like the Sarge in FMJ did until he gave it up. A D.I. has an enourmous mental advantage over a 'cruit (age, experience, a decent night's sleep), and that's what he was drawing from in that scene, , or at least that's how I saw it.
STERLING HAYDEN in DR. STRANGELOVE (1964)
ROD STEIGER in MARS ATTACKS (1996)
Quote from: Andrew on October 25, 2007, 10:11:14 AM
Ah yes. Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. Rings true all the time. In this case, for both the screenwriters and the military that they write.
Of course, sometimes malice is involved. Some movies really try to make the military look like idiots (Mars Attacks and Godzilla spring to mind). This has indeed to do with a loss of confidence in the military as an institution. Long gone are the days when a small boy could give the alert that the Martians had landed, and an entire armoured division would have been dispatched. Now the feeling is, if you involve the military, they'll only mess things up (not to use a stronger word)
On the other hand, for a number of screenwriters the military are just a variant of the ninja's who conveniently line up to be defeated one by one. It is not just Earth soldiers that suffer from this. Imperial Stormtroopers, to name just one. They're beaten by a bunch of teddy bears.
Too lazt to write well? That explains so much of Hollywoods output....
STARFLEET SECURITY : WE LOOSE MORE PERSONEL IN A MONTH THEN MOST FLEETS DO ALL YEAR!
Quote from: Flangepart link=topic=116316.msg166736#msg166736
STARFLEET SECURITY : WE LOOSE MORE PERSONEL IN A MONTH THEN MOST FLEETS DO ALL YEAR!/color]
Course, Starfleet supposedly isn't military. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.)
What I loved about Star Trek (especially TNG) is how they reacted in combat situations. As Phil Farrand (who wrote the wonderful Nitpicker's Guides) points out, their strategy goes something like this: "Get fired at a hundred times, ask for a shield status. Get fired out a hundred more times, ask for a damage, get fired out a hundred MORE times, fire ONE shot back."
I forgot to mention in the last big cliche thread (when I went on about how herbivorous dinosaurs can be dangerous too) - Good guys in movies seem to always put themselves in a position where they're defending a fort when they know the bad guys are attacking at dawn. I've got no training, but that seems like pretty bad tactics to me. If you know that they know where you're going to be, shouldn't you be somewhere else? Especially since the good guys are usually outnumbered, outgunned, etc? This dosen't seem to be a case of trying to present anyone as stupid, maybe it somehow seems more virtuous to be on the defensive, reacting to an attack.
I can say that as a former Marine I get my skivvies in a wad when I see military things on movies done exceptionally wrong ... I not talking medal out of order as it's against the law to wear them in correct order if you didn't earn them. I'm talking officers saluting enlisted men first, as the only exception to this is if the E grade won the CMH. Otherwise it's wrong, wrong, wrong ... case in point the movie "Marine" every copy should be burned. For pete sack he was wearing a Army cover not a Marine one, and Marines calling covers, "hats" and the or the head, bathroom. I could go on with the lack of attention to detail. Anymore today with Hollyweirds ain't Military attitude I'd just they wouldn't make military movies.
Samuel Goldwyn said in 1961 ...
"We should never lose sight of the fact that, no matter how entertaining a picture may be or how much money it may make, it can do our country a great deal of harm if it plays into the hands of our enemies. We have a great responsibility in this regard – far greater than almost any other segment of our country – and we must guide ourselves accordingly."
Many movies today do just this, play into the hands of our enemies and I refuse to watch them.
Quote from: BTM on November 01, 2007, 07:19:05 PM
Quote from: Flangepart link=topic=116316.msg166736#msg166736
STARFLEET SECURITY : WE LOOSE MORE PERSONEL IN A MONTH THEN MOST FLEETS DO ALL YEAR!/color]
Course, Starfleet supposedly isn't military. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.)
What I loved about Star Trek (especially TNG) is how they reacted in combat situations. As Phil Farrand (who wrote the wonderful Nitpicker's Guides) points out, their strategy goes something like this: "Get fired at a hundred times, ask for a shield status. Get fired out a hundred more times, ask for a damage, get fired out a hundred MORE times, fire ONE shot back."
Tell me about it!
They
needed some Marines. Ship Security is like useing cops to handle an invadeing army. You need combat pros for kicking a$$ when you have to repell borders.
Next Gen....the PC military if Hillary has her way.
Yeah....I wanna see R. Lee put Worf to good use. Now thats a Marine waiting to happen.
Quote from: CheezeFlixz on November 06, 2007, 02:05:50 AM
case in point the movie "Marine" every copy should be burned.
For some reason your remark reminded me that I still haven't seen that one. I'm watching it as I write this lines, and I have to agree it's trash. I have no clue on the way real soldiers act, what uniform goes with what hat or if the sergants yell "Go!" or "Advance!" when it's time to kick butt, but the first three minutes of the movie had me laughing out loud harder than when I watched the first "Naked Gun". Which, BTW, it is a fitting comparison.
I hope bad movie reviewers welcome it with their pens sharpenned. Anyway, karmna for you and I'll go back to my guilty pleasure.
Quote from: ghouck on October 25, 2007, 02:50:45 PM
and I can see a bunch of truth in how they depicted the situation in FMJ. We had a private try and commit suicide, and the DI pretty much yelled at him like the Sarge in FMJ did until he gave it up. A D.I. has an enourmous mental advantage over a 'cruit (age, experience, a decent night's sleep), and that's what he was drawing from in that scene, , or at least that's how I saw it.
Weell.. I don't know. I understand totally what you're saying, but, I guess to me, yelling at a guy who's threatening to commit suicide (although, IMHO, not really the best tactic) is a bit different than CONTINUING to yell at someone who has a gun pointed AT you, and you know (as Sarge did from Joker telling him) that said gun is loaded.
Again, just totally my opinion. :)
Quote from: Andrew on October 23, 2007, 06:02:15 PM
I see stuff that drives me up the wall all the time. It's remembering where it all comes from that is my problem. Okay, how about "AI Assault" for one. The crack military team goes in to stop the two killer robots that are loose. The robots have ultra armor, so the special forces guys need a laser to cut through it. They take one laser. They also take one radio and go in without any sort of air support on call.
The tactics used by the highly training team are as follows: clump together, stand still, shoot in the offhand, and get killed once the robot walks up to them.
Now, you know how I feel about some of the most highly regarded films out there, but, when I see a character say and/or do something so illogical and irrational, that no one in his effing mind would do or say, I go straight up the wall. I expect more realism from my characters and less sloppy filmmaking from my filmmakers.
The only thing I would have to say to this is Robinson in Redneck Zombies. I mean, why the hell would you have a drum of radioactive material in the back of an army jeep and the back being OPEN might I add.
I mean its a Troma film so I guess something this is expected with their films.
In my opinion, the most idiotic portrayal of the military I have seen in a movie is the Vietnam sequence of The Twilight Zone Movie. Soldiers on patrol huddled together playing loud music and shouting at each other. :lookingup: I seriously hate that movie for the way it portrays American soldiers in Vietnam. Plus the old folk sequence is boring as hell.
When I served in the Marine Corps in the early eighties there were still quite a few Vietnam Vets around. Many of them were crazy :teddyr: but few were stupid.
There is a part in Aliens that disturbs me:
The marines knew that they could possibly be on a dangerous mission. Yet, they did not protect their primary escape route off the planet which was that Evac ship. They only left the chumpy guy who didn't do combat (was he a mechanic possibly?) and the one-liner pilot, strapped in and only armed with a pistol. When things got sticky that was the first thing they called on to retreat but it had already been wasted. You would think they would have left a few roughnecks behind to guard the ship.
Come to think of it, that spaceship in Aliens was awfully big considering how few people were aboard. They had an extra dropship - that didn't make any sense. If there are two dropships, I would think the standard procedure would be to have enough people to fully man both of them, you don't usually have multi-million dollar ships sitting around unused.
One thing I find silly is that every movie featuring the military has them being navy SEALS or Army Rangers, or some other elite organization. There's never any plain old Army guys. And then they always show these "elite" troops behaving exactly like an untrained actor would act in a situation. Raptor Island is a good example. No one ever aims at anything, they spray bullets back and forth in a wide arc, even though the creature is standing right in front of them. They'd never think of squeezing off a single round aimed at a raptor's head, they just spray a bunch of ammo in the general direction of the critters.
The General in REPTILICUS-the guy screams every thing he says! Hilarious!
OOOOO! That one guy from The Black Scorpion that electrocuted himself! HAW!
I just saw the Mist. The army guys in it actually weren't too bad. Very human and not really stupid.
***SPOILERS***
And as an addendum, while they were apparently to blame for what happened, they're also cleaning it up at the end and rescuing survivors and such - and doing a fine job of it, from what we see.
***END***
there was a super dumb army guy in the old beetle bailey cartoon. I remember one time one time it was his job to roll out a red carpet for some visiting dignatary. he had a codeword. but people kept saying the codeword at random times and he would throw the red carpet out "it's the reeeeeed carpet treatment!!!" bowling everyone over with it. :bouncegiggle:
What about Doom with the Rock? Anything bad/good to say about that. It seemed to this non military person those guys did okay.