Here are the facts, you decide.

ER · October 15, 2008, 10:12:29 AM

Actually Senator Obama's "tax cuts" work out to more like a welfare check being given out, because of the fact that literally tens of millions of those who under his plan would receive this check, actually pay zero taxes to start with. Pay no taxes, get money from the government? Unearned money? Sounds like welfare if you ask me, and I'm not alone in thinking so:

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/oct/13/obama-tax-cut-refunds-those-who-dont-pay/

For those who don't like clicking links, here's an excerpt:

"Barack Obama says he will give 95 percent of all American workers a tax cut but does not mention that his plan would send checks to tens of millions of tax filers who pay no personal income taxes - payments that critics say look "suspiciously like welfare."

Mr. Obama's campaign promise, which he has repeated in his speeches and in the presidential debates, stems from his "Making Work Pay" tax cut that will give a $500 refundable tax credit to every worker or $1,000 to each working couple. But because this provision in his economic-recovery plan is "refundable," a large number of middle- to lower-income workers who have no income-tax liability after taking tax credits and deductions the that Internal Revenue Service allows, will be given the equivalent of the tax cut in the form of direct payments from the U.S. Treasury - funded by higher-income taxpayers.

Because the IRS says that nearly 46 million tax filers - one-third of all filers - had no tax liability in 2006, there is the question of how millions of Americans can receive an income "tax cut" when they pay no taxes.

"It's got to raise alarm bells when you claim you are going to cut taxes for 95 percent of working families when more than 40 percent of them pay no income taxes," said Phil Kerpen, policy director at Americans for Prosperity, a grass-roots free-market advocacy group."

Okay, that's my contribution to this topic. Hope everyone has a wonderful day!

Rev. Powell · October 15, 2008, 02:49:57 PM

"Pay zero taxes to start with" is incorrect. Even if workers don't mail a check to the IRS on April 1, they pay income taxes all year. They're called withholding taxes, they're sent by the employer directly to the Department of they Treasury, and they are why people get tax refunds at the end of the year.

I'm not voting for Obama and I don't like what I can discern of his plan, but that article is misleading, to put it kindly.

I also think Cheeze's interpretation of Obama's plan as taxing gross income before deductions is highly unlikely, because that would be an unprecedented move and would have been much bigger news. I couldn't find the actual details of his tax plan, though, as opposed to summaries put out by one party or the other, so I can't really contradict him.

CheezeFlixz · October 15, 2008, 05:35:42 PM

Quote from: Rev. Powell on October 15, 2008, 02:49:57 PM
I also think Cheeze's interpretation of Obama's plan as taxing gross income before deductions is highly unlikely, because that would be an unprecedented move and would have been much bigger news. I couldn't find the actual details of his tax plan, though, as opposed to summaries put out by one party or the other, so I can't really contradict him.

Exactly his plan is vague, very vague. Now understand I'm not talking about C Corp, but S Corp and as a S Corp Obama has not defined which line of the 1040 is taxable and if they don't tell you what line is taxable, odds are it's the line with the biggest number. Nonetheless he has a a really, really bad plan and every time I hear another part of it, it's gets worse ... he is clueless and yet people think he's the best choice for the economy ... excuse me while I get the duct tape.

RCMerchant · October 15, 2008, 05:59:08 PM

"Obama says-" this-or "Obama plans-" that. None of it means nothing. Obama-or McCain-when in office-will do what congress alows them to do. Or not. It's the giant beind the scenes corporations that REALLY decide. And whoever owns the most of any given canidate,wins. My own paranoid world view. (Which MAY be RIGHT....or it isn't!

)

CheezeFlixz · October 15, 2008, 08:01:53 PM

Quote from: RCMerchant on October 15, 2008, 05:59:08 PM
"Obama says-" this-or "Obama plans-" that. None of it means nothing. Obama-or McCain-when in office-will do what congress alows them to do. Or not. It's the giant beind the scenes corporations that REALLY decide. And whoever owns the most of any given canidate,wins. My own paranoid world view. (Which MAY be RIGHT....or it isn't! )

RC if Obama wins and you have Pelosi and Reid heading the congress and IF congress get a filibuster proof majority we are all so screwed, Obama will get any socialist plan he wants passed and it will take decades to recover. I'm not thrilled with McCain but at least he understand capitalism and how it works, currently throwing all this money at the problem is only making it worse.

Rev. Powell · October 15, 2008, 09:29:31 PM

Cheeze, even though I disagree with your interpretation of how the tax would be administered, I agree that small business need tax cuts, not tax hikes. That, and that most voters don't really grasp that it's small businesses that get hardest by these kinds of taxes. Most seem to imagine that the top marginal rate only effects shiftless billionaires who inherited all their money anyway.

CheezeFlixz · October 15, 2008, 10:38:33 PM

And as you know you don't pay taxes on money you have like trust funds (i.e. Paris Hilton) I can't give you a clear interpretation of Obama plan, I just watched the debate and I still didn't hear a answer. He's playing his cards so close to the vest you can't see them and that is concerning. He talks and talks and never really says anything. It's all smoke and mirrors.
If he is elected and I'll admit it looks like it he will be, people are going to see just how bad this guy is and the gang of 3 (Pelosi, Reid, Obama) likely it will put me out of business or I'll have to seriously scale back which includes laying people off. Facts are I can not and America can not afford Obama.

What I want to know who is Obama going to tax when there are no more "rich" people to tax. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor if I was rich I'd move my money off shore like all the really truly rich people will do. I just don't understand why people don't get it. People think Obama is going to take money from people like their boss or company owner and give it to them, what are they going to do when their boss says, "I can't afford you anymore"?

CheezeFlixz · October 17, 2008, 11:39:19 AM

In regards to NET vs GROSS.

Obama said "If your REVENUE is above $250,000 your tax will be higher."

REVENUE is GROSS the top line according to the IRS.

It might not apply to you, but it likely applies to who you or some one in your family works for. More taxes = less jobs.

Rev. Powell · October 17, 2008, 03:59:47 PM

I'm certain Obama misspoke. See this discussion:

http://ask.metafilter.com/104398/Obamas-Small-Business-Tax-Revenue-or-Profit

No one would propose taxing gross revenue. That would mean taxing people who actually lost money in a given year; no one would stand for it. A few states tried gross receipts taxes, and they were disasters. Even if Obama really proposed it, Congress would never go along with it. It would be re-election suicide.

Put your mind at ease, Cheeze! Everything's nifty in Obama's America!

CheezeFlixz · October 17, 2008, 07:21:45 PM

Quote from: Rev. Powell on October 17, 2008, 03:59:47 PM
Put your mind at ease, Cheeze! Everything's nifty in Obama's America!

Way to many "probably", "maybe", "perhaps" and "I don't know." in that transcript. It seems to me that the Obama team doesn't even know what the Obama plan is and I don't say that jokingly.