Clash of Cultures Looms in Europe, Experts Say

[indianasmith]

So far, the Islamic immigrants pouring into Europe have shown little sign of assimilating. Look what happened in Holland when a newspaper dared to print political cartoons that depicted the prophet Muhammad.  PEOPLE DIED.  BUILDINGS WERE BURNED. RIOTS STARTED.  Then look at what happens when Hollywood, the media, and left-wingers like Olbermann and his ilk take advantage of every single opportunity to verbally and visually kick the church in the b@115 - NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.

That is why I find it so incredible when theists, atheists, and agnostics say there is no difference between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam.  When was the  last time you saw a Baptist suicide bomber?  Or a Methodist hijacker screaming praises to John Wesley right before he slammed his plane into a building full of innocents?  Or a Presbyterian driving a truckload full of explosives into a Buddhist house of worship?  I'm not saying that Christians have never been violent - such a claim would be ludicrous - BUT I will shout from the rooftops that Christians who practice violence in the name of their faith do so in ABSOLUTE VIOLATION OF EVERYTHING JESUS OF NAZARETH EVER TAUGHT.   Muslims who make war on the infidel are simply doing what Muhammad ordered his followers to do, and what he himself did.  He was a violent man of the sword from the beginning to the end of his religious career.

EXAMPLE FOLLOWS:
  You can read this story in John's Gospel, chapter 8.  A woman was dragged before Jesus who had been captured in the very act of adultery and thrown down at his feet.  The Pharisees demanded to know what should be done with her - should she be stoned, as the law suggested, or not?  Jesus stooped and wrote in the dirt without a word.  When they persisted in their demands, he said: "Let her be stoned - but let him among you who is without sin cast the first stone."  They dropped their rocks and split. (Yes, that is a paraphrase.  But what comes next isn't.)  Jesus said "Woman, where are your accusers?  Does none condemn you?"  She said "No one, Lord."  He replied: "Neither do I condemn you.  Go your way, and sin no more."

This story comes from the Hadith, the stories of Muhammad's life that were written down by his disciples after his death for the guidance of future Muslims.  A woman came to Muhammad and said "Prophet of God, I have committed adultery.  How can I make amends?  He refused to answer, and she said:  "O Prophet!  I am with child!  What should I do?"  He said: "Return to me when you have delivered the child of your adultery."  She came back after the child was born, and asked again how to atone for her sin.  He said "Wait till the child is weaned, then give it to one of my followers." When the child was weaned, she returned to Muhammad and presented it to one of his close followers.  She asked again how to atone for her adultery, and Muhammad had her buried in the sand up to her neck and stoned to death.  When her blood splashed the robe of one of her executioners, he cursed her lifeless body.  Muhammad chided him, saying that she had paid a dear enough price for her sin, and blessed her corpse before he walked away.

Now, do you STILL say that there is no difference between Christianity and Islam?

[Rev. Powell]

I don't know that the fact that there have been riots over sensitive issues proves that Muslims don't assimilate into democratic societies.  Particularly when you consider the fact that Muslims in many parts of Europe are still an underclass: poor, and often discriminated against.  We had disaffected people in this country rioting over the Rodney King verdict.

France has suffered the worst Muslim riots, and from everything I can tell they treat Muslims the worst.  From what I hear (and not just from Doggett) things seem to be much better in Britain.

For the record I don't think Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists are the same, or equally dangerous. I also have very little fear of Islamic fundamentalism overthrowing the world order.  Their harsh, anachronistic philosophy doesn't have an ability to win many hearts and minds.  I suspect Western sitcoms, video games and bikinis win over two Muslim teens for every one Western teen who's attracted to shia law, stoning adulterers and praying 5 times a day.     

[RCMerchant]

Welcome to the jungle,folks. I wonder what the American Indians thought when us white folks ran them into the ground? I don't feel sorry for Europe,, I don't feel sorry for us, I don't feel sorry for anyone. The world has been turning for millinium...ain't gonna stop cuz I don't like it.

I think the world would be a better place if we all read Robert Heinlan. But I sure ain't gonna enforce that on anyone....
What's that song...by Doris Day...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJD798-q0bY

I like the idea that,in the film, all sortsa mad sh!t is happening around her....yet....

[indianasmith]

You are both right on one count - what will happen will happen.  If God is real (and I believe He is), it's all part of some plan too big for us to grasp.  And if, per chance, he isn't, then none of it will matter in eternity.

In the meantime, I will continue to teach my students to cherish our Western heritage and not listen to those who would tear it down because of its flaws.  I will live large, love extravagantly, laugh often, and (hopefully) die happy before things hit their worst.

[Flick James]

You are both right on one count - what will happen will happen.  If God is real (and I believe He is), it's all part of some plan too big for us to grasp.  And if, per chance, he isn't, then none of it will matter in eternity.

In the meantime, I will continue to teach my students to cherish our Western heritage and not listen to those who would tear it down because of its flaws.  I will live large, love extravagantly, laugh often, and (hopefully) die happy before things hit their worst.

Again, I agree with this post immensely. I understand that you may take offense over someone like myself saying I don't see a difference between Christian and Islamic fundamentalism, but to a deist like myself who DOES believe in a higher order that is far too big for us to grasp, fundamentalism is fundamentalism. I also should have clarified myself a bit better, as I'm talking more about if the Christian world, in an effort to combat Islamization, takes on a more fundamentalist approach in reaction, I can certainly see just as much likelihood at extremist and violent behavior, because of what I think about that potential in humans. True, you don't see Christians, even ones who would be defined as fundamentalists behaving to some of the these extremes, probably because they reside within a Western culture that shuns such behavior, but I firmly believe if you put the more fundamentalist-minded Christians within the same environment as the middle east, you would see some soldiers of God do some pretty horrendous things. Perhaps not in a suicidal sense, but certainly homicidal.

As much as you may think this is a slam of Christianity, I assure you, it is equally applied to all religions. And it is fair to recognize peaceful Muslims for whom the fundamentalists are a source of shame, just as it is fair to recognize Christians who love everybody and hate the sin over the sinner, as compared to the "God Hates Fags" crowd. I for one do recognize the difference and don't lump all Christians in the same category.

Where I come from is a place where I recognize that religious fervor can stir ANY religion to acts similar to what you see the fundamentalist Muslims committing. If you don't think Christians are capable or would do that kind of thing, I would point out Jim Adkisson who walked into a Unitarian Universalist Church and killed two people because he was upset with (his words) "liberals in general as well as gays." And what about the KKK, or groups like the Lambs of Christ? Yet somehow it is unreasonable for me say there is no difference. Fundamentalist extremism recognizes no religious boundaries. Whip people into enough of a fervor over their faith and all is possible.

So, indianasmith, it's clear we are going to disagree on some items and probably some definitions of terms, and you may take offense. I take offense from what I consider fundamentalist whackos who would take upon themselves the judgement of humanity that only God should judge, be it Christianity, Islam, etc. While I am in direct disagreement with revealed religion according to my spiritual beliefs, I do recognize Christians and Muslims I meet who are good and decent people and who live in a manner that would seem to reflect what their faith is supposed to be about. What you say about the Muslim faith is true, their very faith and beliefs ARE more readily condusive to violence and extremism than Christianity, which is all the more reason why I don't understand the actions of some fundamentalist Christian groups who supposedly believe in a faith of peace, turning the other cheek, and loving all people. So why don't more of them practice it? Again, because of the potential for violence over religious fervor that humans have always had.

I hope you recognize our shared reverence for our great Western civilization. I do cherish it and will fight for it, but on my own terms. This is a part of Western society, the sovereignty of the individual, and this is what I hold so dear and detest seeing vanish. And yes, Islam and the East in general are in great odds to that, which is the greatest of all Western virtues in my opinion. I think if we are honest with ourselves we will admit that we are in greater agreement over the basics of what makes Western society so great than our disagreements in this thread would suggest.

[lester1/2jr]

Then look at what happens when Hollywood, the media, and left-wingers like Olbermann and his ilk take advantage of every single opportunity to verbally and visually kick the church in the b@115 - NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.

??? like the topic itself, this is a really stale and mostly false talking point. When was the last time anyone here remebers any of these entities doing this to "the church" ?

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

Then look at what happens when Hollywood, the media, and left-wingers like Olbermann and his ilk take advantage of every single opportunity to verbally and visually kick the church in the b@115 - NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.

??? like the topic itself, this is a really stale and mostly false talking point. When was the last time anyone here remebers any of these entities doing this to "the church" ?

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, for one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj5IOWvttq8

In this clip Olbermann mentions "far right extremism" and also mentions the religious implications and associations that played the part in Tiller's murder.

He mentions prayer vigils for Tiller's death (allegedly attended by Scott Roeder) and far-right religious anti-abortion groups such as "Project Rescue." 

And he mentions Scott Roeder's attendance at a prayer rally, and outrightly calls Roeder "a terrorist."   All point to religious aspects of Tiller's murder. 

And it's no secret that anti-abortion shares a space with Christian beliefs.  As we can see, Olbermann was his usual less-than-subtle self.

[lester1/2jr]

he was right. the guy who killed Dr Tiller would probably freely admit he was a far right christian extremist or whatever. Thats not an attack on religion.

[Flick James]

Then look at what happens when Hollywood, the media, and left-wingers like Olbermann and his ilk take advantage of every single opportunity to verbally and visually kick the church in the b@115 - NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.

??? like the topic itself, this is a really stale and mostly false talking point. When was the last time anyone here remebers any of these entities doing this to "the church" ?

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, for one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj5IOWvttq8

In this clip Olbermann mentions "far right extremism" and also mentions the religious implications and associations that played the part in Tiller's murder (as well as O' Reilly getting the blame.)   And this is directly from Olbermann's show.

Here is another example of how a fundamentalist Christian walked into a church and murdered someone over religious reasons. Could somebody explain to me how he was NOT a terrorist?

As for O' Reilly, I personally, I would actually agree to some extent with indianasmith and Umaril on just the notion that the Hollywood left is very happy to attack Christianity and to give Islam a pass in many ways. But I'm isolating that item only. I have absolutely no problem with Hollywood attacking Christianity, I just find it hypocritical when they ignore the superstitious madness of extremist Islam, or paint Islam in a somehow more sympathetic light than Christiandom. As much disdain as I may have to either religion, I have just as much disdain for that kind of hypocrisy.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

he was right. the guy who killed Dr Tiller would probably freely admit he was a far right christian extremist or whatever. Thats not an attack on religion.

Well, first you're saying that religion "isn't being attacked."  But yet, you say that Olbermann is right, and you assume that  Roeder would "probably freely admit that he was a Christian extremist, or whatever."

Christianity is a religion, is it not? And Roeder is being associated with it.  It is an attack on religion because it's associating religious themes with the murder of Dr. Tiller.

Just because Olbermann isn't outrightly condemning the entire religion in a way that you or anyone else would define such a thing, dosen't mean it's not an attack.

[Rev. Powell]

Clash of cultures looms on badmovies.org, experts say. 

[Flick James]

he was right. the guy who killed Dr Tiller would probably freely admit he was a far right christian extremist or whatever. Thats not an attack on religion.

Well, first you're saying that religion "isn't being attacked."  But yet, you say that Olbermann is right, and you assume that  Roeder would "probably freely admit that he was a Christian extremist, or whatever."

Christianity is a religion, is it not? And Roeder is being associated with it.  It is an attack on religion because it's associating religious themes with the murder of Dr. Tiller.

Just because Olbermann isn't outrightly condemning the entire religion in a way that you or anyone else would define such a thing, dosen't mean it's not an attack.

Umaril, I'm trying to be fair here. lester has a point. The doctor was murdered over religious premises. That's not attaching religious themes to the murder. They were already attached. That would almost seem that you are suggesting that the murder should be reported by the media but the motivations behind the murder should be ignored if they are religious? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here but I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting.

[lester1/2jr]

umaril- you should work for Jesse Jackson or Abe Foxman. They could really use someone with your skillset of taking everything as a slight and finding bigotry where no one else can see it.


at any rate, China is conquering western civilization, not islam. They are eclipsing us in econmic strength and will fairly soon eclipse us in most other meaningful ways in no small part because they don't get caught up in ivory tower debates of this nature. They do business with Iran, they do business with us.  They don't care if we appreciate Confucious or Lao Tze or Mao for that matter.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

Then look at what happens when Hollywood, the media, and left-wingers like Olbermann and his ilk take advantage of every single opportunity to verbally and visually kick the church in the b@115 - NOT MUCH OF ANYTHING.

??? like the topic itself, this is a really stale and mostly false talking point. When was the last time anyone here remebers any of these entities doing this to "the church" ?

The murder of Dr. George Tiller, for one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj5IOWvttq8

In this clip Olbermann mentions "far right extremism" and also mentions the religious implications and associations that played the part in Tiller's murder (as well as O' Reilly getting the blame.)   And this is directly from Olbermann's show.

Here is another example of how a fundamentalist Christian walked into a church and murdered someone over religious reasons. Could somebody explain to me how he was NOT a terrorist?

No more than the extremists who used Islam and Holy War to attack on 9\11.

As for O' Reilly, I personally, I would actually agree to some extent with indianasmith and Umaril on just the notion that the Hollywood left is very happy to attack Christianity and to give Islam a pass in many ways. But I'm isolating that item only. I have absolutely no problem with Hollywood attacking Christianity, I just find it hypocritical when they ignore the superstitious madness of extremist Islam, or paint Islam in a somehow more sympathetic light than Christiandom. As much disdain as I may have to either religion, I have just as much disdain for that kind of hypocrisy.

Very well said, and worthy of a free drink  

People tend to forget the Media and their age old practice of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."  Even in jail, you will have rival gangs who ally for the purpose of taking down a common enemy (or a percieved enemy.)  No different in The Media either.

And, the fact that they have been slamming Christianity to the exclusion of the actions of extreme Islam,  is an example of that mindset, as well as their blatant hypocrisy in their dismissal of all things Muslim.

But it also shows FEAR on the part of The Media. Mainstream Christians are tolerant and turn the other cheek to The Media and their antagonism.

On the other hand, the ambiguous nature of Islam (made clearer by the recent calls for Jihad against The Media for taking that one step too far against Islam) also play a fair part in so-called "free pass" The Media gives to Islam.

No matter the ratio of hypocrisy to fear, it's no big secret that The Media is constantly exercising hypocrisy in their attacks upon Christianity, and their free pass to Islam.




Part hypocrisy, part fear. But being the lunatics they are, hypocrisy is and always will be the greater part of The media and their BS.

[lester1/2jr]

And, the fact that they have been slamming Christianity to the exclusion of the actions of extreme Islam,  is an example of that mindset, as well as their blatant hypocrisy in their dismissal of all things Muslim.

you've stated this numerous times and provided no proof. who is the media anyway? does FOX news bash christianity?

is the guy that killed the abortion doctor a good example of "mainstream christians"?

would you like some cheese with your whine?




If the people in Europe don't want muslims they should pass a law expelling them and /or not allowing any more in.  no war of civilizations neccesary.