Clash of Cultures Looms in Europe, Experts Say

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

umaril- you should work for Jesse Jackson or Abe Foxman. They could really use someone with your skillset of taking everything as a slight and finding bigotry where no one else can see it.

Bigotry?
I'm not the one who assumed to speak for Roeder, you did. And in your assumption that Roeder would "probabaly admit that he was a Christian extremist," you yourself are not only assuming to speak for Roeder, but you are also trying to turn the tables on me for pointing out the dual nature of your statement.  Maybe you should work for Olbermann.

at any rate, China is conquering western civilization, not islam. They are eclipsing us in econmic strength and will fairly soon eclipse us in most other meaningful ways in no small part because they don't get caught up in ivory tower debates of this nature. They do business with Iran, they do business with us.

And? 

They don't care if we appreciate Confucious or Lao Tze or Mao for that matter.

Any more than anyone of the Liberal mindset (or the general well intentioned White Liberal guilt mongers) would be spared if we welcomed Islam and it's teachings the same way were they taken hostage. 

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

And, the fact that they have been slamming Christianity to the exclusion of the actions of extreme Islam,  is an example of that mindset, as well as their blatant hypocrisy in their dismissal of all things Muslim.

you've stated this numerous times and provided no proof. who is the media anyway? does FOX news bash christianity?

Does Al Jazeera or the state run Islamic media slam the actions of their extremist brothers?

is the guy that killed the abortion doctor a good example of "mainstream christians"?

Is 9\11 a good example of decent Muslims? 

Was The murder of Pro-Life man James Pouillon (and the Media's overlooking of it while they canonized Tiller) a decent example of the assumed tolerance the Left has towards other peoples' opposing views, or the fact that both were wrongdoing defined?

would you like some cheese with your whine?

Oh yes, the usual desperate attempt to antagonize when one is cornered on his\her hypocrisy with no way to disprove. Let it be said for the record that it's you doing this, and not me. 

Finally:

If the people in Europe don't want muslims they should pass a law expelling them and /or not allowing any more in.  no war of civilizations neccesary.

Expelling Muslims? NOW whose attacking religion?     Way to contradict yourself, bud. 

[lester1/2jr]

Does Al Jazeera or the state run Islamic media slam the actions of their extremist brothers?

Al jezeera does all the time. but what does this have to do with anything?

Is 9\11 a good example of decent Muslims? 

no, so Olbermann slamming the guy who killed dr Tiller is no more anti christian than saying 9/11 was done by muslim extremists is anti muslim. whose point are you trying to make?

Oh yes, the usual desperate attempt to antagonize when one is cornered on his\her hypocrisy with no way to disprove

??  You are being a blowhard and a wuss at the same time. it has nothign to do with the merits of this discussion at all.

Expelling Muslims? NOW whose attacking religion?     Way to contradict yourself, bud

I was not advocating they do that. You are totally missing the point. My point was that Frances open borders imigration policy and massive welfare state doesn't mean there is a war of civilizations, it means France's policies aren't working for it. 

Any more than anyone of the Liberal mindset (or the general well intentioned White Liberal guilt mongers) would be spared if we welcomed Islam and it's teachings the same way were they taken hostage. 

"if we welcomed islam and its teachings the same way were they taken hostage". I'm sorry I do not understand what that  means.

[Flick James]

And, the fact that they have been slamming Christianity to the exclusion of the actions of extreme Islam,  is an example of that mindset, as well as their blatant hypocrisy in their dismissal of all things Muslim.

you've stated this numerous times and provided no proof. who is the media anyway? does FOX news bash christianity?

Does Al Jazeera or the state run Islamic media slam the actions of their extremist brothers?

is the guy that killed the abortion doctor a good example of "mainstream christians"?

Is 9\11 a good example of decent Muslims? 

Was The murder of Pro-Life man James Pouillon (and the Media's overlooking of it while they canonized Tiller) a decent example of the assumed tolerance the Left has towards other peoples' opposing views, or the fact that both were wrongdoing defined?

would you like some cheese with your whine?

Oh yes, the usual desperate attempt to antagonize when one is cornered on his\her hypocrisy with no way to disprove. Let it be said for the record that it's you doing this, and not me. 

Finally:

If the people in Europe don't want muslims they should pass a law expelling them and /or not allowing any more in.  no war of civilizations neccesary.

Expelling Muslims? NOW whose attacking religion?     Way to contradict yourself, bud. 

Now you two, this is silly. My opinion is that this is much more an East vs. West struggle in general. The lines are being drawn, and in my mind we are fighting over the wrong things. Far too many people are looking at this from a religious perspective and mixing religion with politics and that's not going to solve anything. lester brought up a salient point in that whatever is going on between the Christian world and the Muslim world is peanuts compared to what China is doing. China loves all this religious fighting. Why? Because it keeps us Americans distracted while they leverage the USA into complete self shutdown. If the deal with Russia happens and they abandon the US dollar, the Euro will become the world reserve currency by default. The collapse is happening and here we are arguing over religion.

The important tragedy is the loss of the Western culture, and that is what should unite us. Western civilization has been the light of the world for several centuries, and that light is going out. The Roman Empire was the light of the world at one time, and look at their religious beliefs? One could generate a powerful argument that Christianity played a significant role in the downfall of Rome. My point is that religious turmoil seems to accompany the collapse of great civilizations throughout history. Look at every great civilization and the amount of religious turmoil that was happening at the time of collapse. The religious turmoil that accompanied the fall of the Roman Empire is particularly significant when you look at the 1000 years of the Dark Ages that followed.

Given the bigger picture, and with all due respect to both of you, WTF are you arguing about? And me too, for that matter?

[lester1/2jr]

I apologize to umaril for calling him names. not kosher at all. 

[indianasmith]

This has proved to be a fascinating thread, as I hoped it would. 
Lester, your absolute indifference to human evil as long as it doesn't touch you personally continues to bother me.
Umaril, although we agree on many things, I do think you tend to wax thick-skinned at times.
Flick - You are a remarkably reasonable person, and I hope, at some point, that life throws us together so that we can sort out the cosmos over a fresh pizza - my treat!
Rev. Powell - kudos for the light touch when things get heated!

And to everyone else who responded, thanks!

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

Does Al Jazeera or the state run Islamic media slam the actions of their extremist brothers?

Al jezeera does all the time. but what does this have to do with anything?

You know what it has to do with. FOX gives Christians a free ride, Al Jazeera syas nothing of Islamic extremism.  Don't play dumb with me.

Is 9\11 a good example of decent Muslims?

no, so Olbermann slamming the guy who killed dr Tiller is no more anti christian than saying 9/11 was done by muslim extremists is anti muslim. whose point are you trying to make?

Whose point were you trying to make when you spoke for Roeder below?

he was right. the guy who killed Dr Tiller would probably freely admit he was a far right christian extremist or whatever. Thats not an attack on religion.

It IS an attack on religion, as it is assuming religious beliefs were Roeder's SOLE motivation. And that's just what the Media wanted you to believe, to the exclusion of all other possible factors.

This was the Media's wet dream and gotcha' moment for everything anti-Christian. 

And to be fair, they never said one word about the murder of James Pouillon by a Pro-Choice man who killed him for the sign he was holding. Only one act was seen as wrong, and Tiller was martyred by the media for being Left-Wing and Pro-Choice.

Oh yes, the usual desperate attempt to antagonize when one is cornered on his\her hypocrisy with no way to disprove

You are being a blowhard and a wuss at the same time. it has nothign to do with the merits of this discussion at all.

Neither does namecalling.

Expelling Muslims? NOW whose attacking religion?     Way to contradict yourself, bud

I was not advocating they do that. You are totally missing the point. My point was that Frances open borders imigration policy and massive welfare state doesn't mean there is a war of civilizations, it means France's policies aren't working for it.

If I, as a right-wing person, said "expel all Muslims" I'm sure there would be hell to pay, regardless of the context with which I was trying to make the statement.  But, I'll give you half off for your nail-on-the-head statement that France's immigration policies smell just about as bad their cheese. 

Any more than anyone of the Liberal mindset (or the general well intentioned White Liberal guilt mongers) would be spared if we welcomed Islam and it's teachings the same way were they taken hostage. 

I was harmonizing with your earlier statement that we would be wiped out by the Chinese whether or not we "appreciated" Sun Tzu or Confucius or Mao.   

By the same token, extremist Muslims wouldn't spare any of us if we appreciated Mohammed or The Quran.  That's what I meant.  Was it really that hard?

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

And, the fact that they have been slamming Christianity to the exclusion of the actions of extreme Islam,  is an example of that mindset, as well as their blatant hypocrisy in their dismissal of all things Muslim.

you've stated this numerous times and provided no proof. who is the media anyway? does FOX news bash christianity?

Does Al Jazeera or the state run Islamic media slam the actions of their extremist brothers?

is the guy that killed the abortion doctor a good example of "mainstream christians"?

Is 9\11 a good example of decent Muslims? 

Was The murder of Pro-Life man James Pouillon (and the Media's overlooking of it while they canonized Tiller) a decent example of the assumed tolerance the Left has towards other peoples' opposing views, or the fact that both were wrongdoing defined?

would you like some cheese with your whine?

Oh yes, the usual desperate attempt to antagonize when one is cornered on his\her hypocrisy with no way to disprove. Let it be said for the record that it's you doing this, and not me. 

Finally:

If the people in Europe don't want muslims they should pass a law expelling them and /or not allowing any more in.  no war of civilizations neccesary.

Expelling Muslims? NOW whose attacking religion?     Way to contradict yourself, bud. 

Lester brought up a salient point in that whatever is going on between the Christian world and the Muslim world is peanuts compared to what China is doing. China loves all this religious fighting. Why? Because it keeps us Americans distracted while they leverage the USA into complete self shutdown. If the deal with Russia happens and they abandon the US dollar, the Euro will become the world reserve currency by default. The collapse is happening and here we are arguing over religion.

I'm not disagreeing with the point made by Lester. The Chinese ARE the wild card in any future conflict.  But I would hardly call the literal street fight America is into with Islamic extremists, "peanuts."  We are losing.

We are losing for the same reasons we lost Vietnam..international and domestic political interference, and the fear of what the other countries would think, if we stooped to Al Qaeda's level to beat them at the own game. America always has to "go by the book" all the while our enemies hit below the belt. And as long as we don't take the gloves off, it will be the same.

The important tragedy is the loss of the Western culture, and that is what should unite us. Western civilization has been the light of the world for several centuries, and that light is going out.

Too many factors to label here, but I agree with you. I understand what he was saying. 

But when people like Lester are content to allow the world to go to to hell in a handbag along with his indifference to human evil (as Indianasmith said earlier) then you have to ask yourself just WHY it is that our light is going out.

Noone cares, that's why.

[lester1/2jr]

, Al Jazeera syas nothing of Islamic extremism.  Don't play dumb with me.

when was the last time you watched an al jezeera broadcast?

But when people like Lester are content to allow the world to go to to hell in a handbag along with his indifference to human evil (as Indianasmith said earlier) then you have to ask yourself just WHY it is that our light is going out.

the light  is going out because we waste blood and treasure "caring " via our government/ miltary industrial complex about problms in parts of the world who don't want our help and who we have no interest in. the road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say. Conservatives seem to grasp this when it comes to domestic policy but get lost in nationalistic hubris when it comes to foreign policy. I have no idea why that is.

fighting wars in the middle east is not compassioniate and doesn't make us stronger.  It's sadistic and makes us weaker. The war on terror has cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of lives and has not made anyone more pro US or made us safer. Whatver it was supposed to do, which was somehow inspire deomcracy to take hold in the middle east so they would be more interested in starting starbucks franchises than terorrism or something, hasn't worked.  

We are losing for the same reasons we lost Vietnam..

we lost vietnam because it was a dumb idea that people, you know the ones who were PAYING for it and fighting in it, didn't support.  It wasn't vital to our national security for Vietnam to become a democracy. killing tens of thousands of vietnamese didn't make it any more vital to that security.  


Of course, once we left and Vietnam got a chance to soak in communism for a few more decades they said holy crap this system stinks, now they are begging us to open sweat shops there and we are trading with them.  Markets "won" the vietnam war, the state lost and the same thing will likely happen with the middle east where they are now getting american satellite tv and loving it  Jihad? sorry I don't want to miss desperate housewives

bottom line: our government should leave us and other people alone.

People in Europe should have more kids and anyone who thinks muslims or mexicans or mexican muslims are taking over western civilization should do the same.

Sweden has a very very selective immigration process and if you don't get a job in 6 months you're out. France and other countries could easily adopt a policy like this.

[Rev. Powell]

I'm not disagreeing with the point made by Lester. The Chinese ARE the wild card in any future conflict.  But I would hardly call the literal street fight America is into with Islamic extremists, "peanuts."  We are losing.

We are losing for the same reasons we lost Vietnam..international and domestic political interference, and the fear of what the other countries would think, if we stooped to Al Qaeda's level to beat them at the own game. America always has to "go by the book" all the while our enemies hit below the belt. And as long as we don't take the gloves off, it will be the same.

Really?  You think we're losing?  Why?  I see Islamic extremists like criminals, like the Mafia.  They kill people every now and then, but I have very little fear of them ever exerting significant power on the world stage.   

The exception would be Iran getting nuclear weapons, but that's not Islam per se.  I'm just as concerned, if not more so, about North Korea.     

[indianasmith]

Lester, I have come to like you over the years I've been here, although we very seldom agree about much save movies.  But there is a strain of . . . well, selfishness to your libertarian side that apalls me at times.

It seems like the world of Lester would be a place where the USA would stand aside and let Hitler finish the Holocaust - until there was not a single Jewish person left in Europe, or any gypsies or Slavs or Poles - because "he wasn't doing anything to us."

I believe it is the duty of good men, in every age, to oppose evil.  Sometimes by words, and sometimes by force.  If good refuses to oppose that which is plainly evil, how can it claim to be good?

Islamic fundamentalism is evil, pure and simple.  Glutted with oil money, its reach grows stronger day by day.  Saudi Arabia donates billions of dollars to U.S. Universities to fund "Departments of Middle Eastern Studies", then provides the "scholars" to teach there - and they use their classrooms to propagate hatred for Jews, Christians, and the U.S. and Israel.  All across Europe, in the land once known as "Christendom," the extinction of evangelical Christianity following World War I and the failure of "multicultural socialism" to provide a meaningful philosophy or belief system to replace it has resulted in hundreds of young people coming to mosques to hear what the mullahs have to say . . . and to be infused with their rage and hatred of the West.  Those who want no part of it are running away.  One Dutch expatriate, quoted by Mary Steyn, says "I was used to enjoying my freedom - I never did learn to defend it."

You  may be content to see the light go out, my friend.  But I am not.  I will speak out, and if it ever comes down to it, I will defend my way of life with all that I have.  But when you allow evil to camp on your doorstep before you try and do something about it, it's only one step away from being inside your house.

That being said, in the end, the only thing stronger than hate is love.  Our society has embraced sensuality in place of love and anger in place of passion, and all that does is make us vulnerable.

I don't know what the answer is, and I may not be making a great deal of sense right now.  But the current trend of events scares the hell out of me.

Nearly 100 years ago, Lord Grey said on the brink of the Great War: "The lamps are going out all over Europe. They shall not be lit again in our lifetime."

It's happening again.

[HappyGilmore]

  I'm just as concerned, if not more so, about North Korea.     

Same here. 

[Doggett]

I'm not concerend about anything.

Except my weird hand.

[Flick James]

Nearly 100 years ago, Lord Grey said on the brink of the Great War: "The lamps are going out all over Europe. They shall not be lit again in our lifetime."

The lamps are going out in the west because of the loss of reason. There is little other cause.

[dean]

Was bored and flicking through channels and came across this interesting documentary by chance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QKxHINgloA



http://www.reelbadarabs.com/synopsis.html


Basically it's about how Arabs are portrayed in Hollywood, and is pretty interesting.  One point they make which I found appropriate for this thread is how would you feel if every movie you see coming from America is either making you out as a fool or a violent Terrorist?  I imagine it doesn't do a lot to promote peace in any case.

Its like the outcry when Billy Zane was in that Turkish movie a few years ago about Americans killing Muslims; it wasn't exactly a good or accurate representation of Americans, people were hurt and upset, and that was just one film.  Imagine if there's practically a whole genre of movies like that about your culture, with little to no redeeming Arab characters in them at all.  And it's been happening since the beginning of cinema...

Not only does it p**s off the people being portrayed inaccurately but more importantly it also dehumanises them to the point where nobody cares about them anymore/actively hates them without just cause.