Clash of Cultures Looms in Europe, Experts Say

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

You owe ME the apology.

I did apologize several pages ago. i don't expect the same from you though your calling me a p***y and now a f**kin hypocrite is way worse than anythign I said. You've really made quite an entrence for yourself on this forum sir

Just a reminder that you're not the only one on this board who can be a real SOB when he has to.  Don't expect it from me? Don't do it again then. Do it, and expect it. That's your two choices. Pick one or the other.

Gulf War 1. You know which one I'm talking about. Again, nice try to conflate the two.

They are the same thing.. It's the same country.  If we'd "finished the job" in the 90's  we would have occupied Baghdad in the 90's. The equation was the same, same people same place. Al queda was in existence.

Al Qaeda was in existence? Oh so it this to say that Al Qaeda DOES have ties to Iraq? Oh but noone belived that before, why believe it now?  Now you support the second invasion and legitimize Al Qaeda's role in Iraq?   Uh huh...explain.

Then don't complain about the CIA and America then, because if you suport the media, you support the biggest liars of all.  Good call, Les.

does anyone know what umaril is saying here? supporting trhe media? you mean supporting free speech? I don't know what you are talking about seriously.

You know damn well. Again, good try.

So you WANT a World War?

I want to prevent a world war

Over your selfish needs to pry into things that aren't your business?

they are very much my business.

Oh, and you are...?

The human race thanks you for your part in our forthcoming extinction.

lol you're welcome. but it's the guys in the think tanks in DC and the senate who you should be thanking. they're the ones starting the wars. The only war i'm fighting is on them.

Oh yes, again calling America and the CIA on alleged lies while taking everything Assange says as truth.  Again, thank you for your hypocrisy.

America started the wars? Apprently WE gave N. Vietnam and N. Korea and the Middle East all those AK-47's and Soviet supplied hardware?  Good one. You're really on a roll, Les.  So we have no right to fight Communist aggression at all?

Oh and don't forget it was a DEMOCRAT who got us into Vietnam (Kennedy) and 2 Republican presidents that got stuck with HIS mess. And it was a DEMOCRAT (Bill Clinton) who made enemies out of former Bosnian Serb allies when he bombed Yugoslavian Kosovo, a country where we had NO STAKE OR BUSINESS AT ALL.

Want to talk about useless wars now?  What does your buddy ASS-ange say about THAT?

Any why is it that it's only OK for the LEFT to have a right to know, but when the Right wants to know something, it's none of our business?

I think everyone shuold know everything.

Oh sure, that's why you're trying to dismiss and invalidate MY questioning of your motives. And that's why the left constantly calls any attempt at Right-Wing questioning as desperation and denial.  Again, good call, Les.

I suppose the fact that the Media gave Bill Clinton rock star status for his Whitehouse follies with Monica was a great example of keeping people honest?  Did you support THAT?

Oh but I forgot, it was HIS business, but yet if a Bill was a Right-Winger he'd be treated like crap.

You're such a fuc*in' hypocrite.

was there something ELSE about that affair you needed to know?? I think we got the gist of it in the Starr report. The guy lied under oath. This is ancient history and I'm a registered republican fyi.

You're a Republican?  Yeah, sure. Believe everything Lefty Assange says in Wiki, then suddenly become a fair-weather, bubble-gum Republican when it suits your need. Not a good time to change horses here, bud. A bit "transparent" in it's own doings, wouldn't you say? You're about as Republican as Hitler was a humanitarian.

Just remember that when Chinese soldiers begin landing in our backyard..

I doubt that would happen unless they want to come into posssession of about 14 trillion in debt.

And how much do we owe them, in trillions? Think of it as "foreclosure" of an unpaid mortgage..

Have you (or anyone else) ever one thought about how much of Wikleaks is deliberate, bald faced lies aimed at intentional defamation, and not the real truth?

I don't think anyone has made that claim. If they feel they have been lied about they should say so. I don't think there is any speculation that the documents aren't genuine is there?

Oh sure...the media (whom you support) will make sure than ANY and ALL claims to truth about Wiki and it's BS will be promoted, while any proof that they are LYING, will conveniently get buried in the backrooms of the news vaults.  Don't kid me..you yourself said you know how the media works, and you're Ok with it. And if so, you promote your own brand of deceit.

In your little "quest" for truth, be sure to questionthe motives of those whose word
YOU are taking as ultimate gospel. That's all I ever asked, and I don't think that's an unreasonable request.  If you think it's unreasonable, that's your problem.

[lester1/2jr]

That's your two choices. Pick one or the other.

so if I call you 2 extremely mild pg rated names once then apologize for it, you have the right to call my expletives for the rest of time. got it

Al Qaeda was in existence? Oh so it this to say that Al Qaeda DOES have ties to Iraq? Oh but noone belived that before, why believe it now?  Now you support the second invasion and legitimize Al Qaeda's role in Iraq?   Uh huh...explain.

no al queda exists to drive out occupiers from foreign nations. so if we'd gone to iraq they would have come over to help the locals drive us out like they ended up doing in the 00's.

Al queda didn't have a "presence" in iraq though. They had one in Afghanistan quite openly.

Oh, and you are...?

an american citizen. I'm paying for this, I own it.

Oh and don't forget it was a DEMOCRAT who got us into Vietnam

yeah exactly. whose point are you trying to make?

And it was a DEMOCRAT (Bill Clinton) who made enemies out of former Bosnian Serb allies when he bombed Yugoslavian Kosovo, a country where we had NO STAKE OR BUSINESS AT ALL.

couldn't agree more.

the left constantly calls any attempt at Right-Wing questioning as desperation and denial.

take it up with the left. Again, I'm for all questioning.

You're about as Republican as Hitler was a humanitarian.

republican is just a box you check off on a ballot. I am, in fact, a registered republican. I have registered to vote and I am registered with that party. sorry if that offends you in someway.

And how much do we owe them, in trillions? Think of it as "foreclosure" of an unpaid mortgage..

yeah good point. maybe we should stop trying to spread democracy and start trying to get our own house in order so this doesn't happen.


and again, no one in the whole world besides you is claiming wikileaks forged any documents. THat's not the issue with it.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

That's your two choices. Pick one or the other.

so if I call you 2 extremely mild pg rated names once then apologize for it, you have the right to call my expletives for the rest of time. got it.

Oh yes, you're the victim. And that's "me" not my.  And those were your words, not mine.

Al Qaeda was in existence? Oh so it this to say that Al Qaeda DOES have ties
to Iraq? Oh but noone believed that before, why believe it now?  Now you support the second invasion and legitimize Al Qaeda's role in Iraq?   Uh huh...explain.

no al queda exists to drive out occupiers from foreign nations. so if we'd gone to iraq they would have come over to help the locals drive us out like they ended up doing in the 00's.

Oh yes, and their rejection of womens' rights, throwing acid in their faces,  bombing womens' schools, and the arrest of women for simply showing an ankle is the mark of a group that you support?  Do you support abuse of women too?

Oh, and you are...?

an american citizen. I'm paying for this, I own it.

No you don't own Wikileaks.

And if you continue to deny that they are adding lies to an already volatile mix of deliberate instigation for their own motivated personal revenge (and not the truth itself) all the while you point the finger at your enemies for doing the same, you are NOT an American citizen.

You are an insult to the country for using hypocrisy as your ledge for rationale in this thing, while claiming truth and honesty to be your motives. And for you to attack me and try to discredit me for trying to point this out to you, shows your very being. 

Flick James already said it a few posts back. You are very unfair. And apparently very offended at those who point it out, otherwise you wouldn't continue to twist my words all the while you know damn well what I'm saying.

Oh and don't forget it was a DEMOCRAT who got us into Vietnam

yeah exactly. whose point are you trying to make?

For your little buddy ASS-ange to criticize that as wrongdoing as well, if you see ALL wars and such as the wrongdoing he is using as his front to throw the world into chaos.

And it was a DEMOCRAT (Bill Clinton) who made enemies out of former Bosnian Serb allies when he bombed Yugoslavian Kosovo, a country where we had NO STAKE OR BUSINESS AT ALL.

couldn't agree more.

Oh but there's no wrongdoing on Clinton according to Wikileaks, is there? OR that he and Hillary voted FOR Iraq 2?

the left constantly calls any attempt at Right-Wing questioning as desperation and denial.

take it up with the left. Again, I'm for all questioning.

No, I'm taking it up with YOU and your quest to turn America into a Third World country in your support of what you call right. But like most people, when it affects YOU, you'll be the first to whine, so...

You're about as Republican as Hitler was a humanitarian.

republican is just a box you check off on a ballot. I am, in fact, a registered republican. I have registered to vote and I am registered with that party. sorry if that offends you in someway.

It's not me you have to prove your worth to, you've betrayed yourself. You already proved that you care nothing for the party you represent,that you are just using it for inner theme.

It's all about what you can get and how you can get it. You've shown that. And in doing so, proved your true worth as a true self-serving sociopath.  No skin off my back, ain't my problem. You have to live with it, not me.

And how much do we owe them, in trillions? Think of it as "foreclosure" of an unpaid mortgage..

yeah good point. maybe we should stop trying to spread democracy and start trying to get our own house in order so this doesn't happen.

Oh sure, and we should allow the Chinese and Russians to be our housekeepers as we allow ourselves to become a paper tiger? So we stop spreading democracy, but allow our enemies to continue their own human rights violations until it reaches our doorstep? 

and again, no one in the whole world besides you is claiming wikileaks forged any documents. THat's not the issue with it. If they are then I hope we find out.

Oh yes I know, I'm very much the problem.  I'm your problem. I'm your problem because I don't believe you.

I too, am an American, and I'M paying for it too.  So if MY questioning of YOU, and YOUR motives, is somehow offensive to YOU, that's YOUR problem.  I have rights too.

I have to congratulate you Left-Wingers. Knowing that you continually LIE, CHEAT, and have the power to SILENCE your opponents (and never get caught doing it because of all those who protect you) must be a nice thing. 

Maybe Assange sould address that too.

[Flick James]

You guys are killing me. It's like it's gone from ping-pong game to war-ball to hurling grenades at each other.

Let me know when you break out the RPGs.

[lester1/2jr]

let's get back on topic if we can.

[indianasmith]

Oh, NOTHING I said was intended to justify America's treatment of the Indians!  And you really won't find me trying to do so.  The seizure of the continent from them is one of those ugly, oozing moral sores from America's past that we are still trying to sort out.
That being said, for the most part, North and South were equally guilty of oppression of the Natives - it was the people of Georgia and Alabama who demanded that the government drive the Cherokee off their lands, and the people of New York and Pennsylvania that stole land from the Iriquois and Seneca.   As far as Lincoln goes, his policy towards the Indians was better than that of many Presidents, and worse than a few.  He was, in that regard, not as far ahead of his time as he was on the issue of slavery and citizenship for African Americans.  But, considering his remarkable capacity for personal growth, had he lived, I think that his attitude towards the Indians would have grown and changed for the better as he had more time to deal with Indian affairs.

Now, as far as motivation of emancipation goes, the truth of the matter is this: Lincoln, as President of the United States, had no legal authority to free the slaves in any states, and in fact told the South so in his first inaugural address.  However, once the rebellion began, he did have the authority as commander-in-chief to sieze rebel property and resources in order to limit their ability to make war.  That's why the Emancipation Proclamation applied ONLY to those states in rebellion against the Union at the time it was issued: Lincoln still did not have the constitutional authority to touch slavery in the parts of the Union where armed insurrection was not occurring.  But, the South's willingness to start a war to save slavery, as well as the shift in public opinion towards emancipation, did create a groundswell of support to eliminate slavery once and for all in the only Constitutionally legal way: via the Amendment Process.  Lincoln lived just long enough to see the 13th Amendment ratified.

American history is filled with examples of moments that we have failed to live up to the creeds our founders articulated.  Even our founders themselves did not always live up to the ideas they believed in.  But that does not make those ideas any less worthy of emulation.   And the beauty of it is, for every moment America has failed to live up to its promises, there are many moments that it has done so magnificently, which is why I still believe this is the greatest nation on earth.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

Umaril, my bud, you are right on so very many things, but . . .

slavery a "fringe issue" in the Civil War?

Please.  Get real.

"Our government is founded upon the supposition. . . that the white man is not equal to the black man, that slavery is his natural and normal condition. . . Our government is the first in the world to be founded upon this. . . fact"

No slavery, no Civil War.  Pure and simple.  Or, as one of my colleagues put it: "The cause of the Civil War was perhaps not so much slavery itself as the South's irrational desire to hang on to it at all costs . . . "


OK, so if I need to "get real", and if 'All men Were Created Equal' as you say, explain the case of the American Indian.  They were treated WORSE than the slaves..

Apparently we were under the supposition that the Indian was also inferior to the White man? What's yer old Honest Abe have to say about that? What were his and Grant's feelings about "killing the noble savages"?

Maybe now is a good time to quote your good old, reliable history books that say that General Philip Sheridan was quoted as saying that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian'? That's some quote from a guy who recently fought to free others who were felt about the same way...

The Black man was freed to make the American Federal govt. the heroes, then it was back to killing the Red man by the same hand that acted in freedom for the Black man.  Can you deny that? 

A bit hypocritical, perhaps? Oh but land and gold were involved. I see...

Forced onto reservations...forced to cut their hair and attend "Christian" schools who forced them to forget their heritage. Prevented from practicing their religious customs and languages.  Occasionally massacred to make examples out of those who would dare take pride in their heritage.  Denied the ability to own land.   

The Indian agencies gave them sh*t and Shine-ola and made them believe they could live off of it.  Promised them good land for crops and gave them dust and sand, with the saved money used for more important things like whiskey and whores at the local bar..

Oh and who was it that turned the Indian into alcoholics, all the while the same behavior was seen as culturally acceptable by those of other White Anglo-Saxon ethnicities?

Did the Black man have to suffer these indignities after the Civil War? No, the Black man walked free after the Civil War.

The Indian became nothing more than cannon fodder because the Settlers wanted their land, with their rejection of Anglo-Saxon Christianity as their excuse to remove them of that land. "Manifest Destiny" as it were?

Were 46 treaties broken with the Blacks? No, but they were with the Cherokee. Oh and let's not mention the Trail Of Tears and Washeeta River (one of many previous high scores by those who previously fought for the freedom of ALL men.)

What does history say about THIS?   I'm not mad at you, but I wonder what your feelings as a historian are about that, given history promotes the victor and smites the vanquished..

[indianasmith]

See my reply above on that issue, Umaril - think you double posted, or else took your previous post and added a few comments.

To recap:
I don't justify or admire the 19th Century White man's treatment of the Native Americans.

[Flick James]

Oh, NOTHING I said was intended to justify America's treatment of the Indians!  And you really won't find me trying to do so.  The seizure of the continent from them is one of those ugly, oozing moral sores from America's past that we are still trying to sort out.
That being said, for the most part, North and South were equally guilty of oppression of the Natives - it was the people of Georgia and Alabama who demanded that the government drive the Cherokee off their lands, and the people of New York and Pennsylvania that stole land from the Iriquois and Seneca.   As far as Lincoln goes, his policy towards the Indians was better than that of many Presidents, and worse than a few.  He was, in that regard, not as far ahead of his time as he was on the issue of slavery and citizenship for African Americans.  But, considering his remarkable capacity for personal growth, had he lived, I think that his attitude towards the Indians would have grown and changed for the better as he had more time to deal with Indian affairs.

Now, as far as motivation of emancipation goes, the truth of the matter is this: Lincoln, as President of the United States, had no legal authority to free the slaves in any states, and in fact told the South so in his first inaugural address.  However, once the rebellion began, he did have the authority as commander-in-chief to sieze rebel property and resources in order to limit their ability to make war.  That's why the Emancipation Proclamation applied ONLY to those states in rebellion against the Union at the time it was issued: Lincoln still did not have the constitutional authority to touch slavery in the parts of the Union where armed insurrection was not occurring.  But, the South's willingness to start a war to save slavery, as well as the shift in public opinion towards emancipation, did create a groundswell of support to eliminate slavery once and for all in the only Constitutionally legal way: via the Amendment Process.  Lincoln lived just long enough to see the 13th Amendment ratified.

American history is filled with examples of moments that we have failed to live up to the creeds our founders articulated.  Even our founders themselves did not always live up to the ideas they believed in.  But that does not make those ideas any less worthy of emulation.   And the beauty of it is, for every moment America has failed to live up to its promises, there are many moments that it has done so magnificently, which is why I still believe this is the greatest nation on earth.

In an earlier thread I refered to a quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald, one of my all-time favorites:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

I think that post, indiana, exemplifies the spirit of that quote. We may butt heads on matters of religious history, but this post was well done.

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

See my reply above on that issue, Umaril - think you double posted, or else took your previous post and added a few comments.

To recap:
I don't justify or admire the 19th Century White man's treatment of the Native Americans.

Yeah I did re-post.

I corrected some spelling typos. God forbid I mis-spell then that'll be used against me too.

I know you don't agree with the Indian issue.  You're an OK guy.

But apparently some people DO agree with mistreatment. 

In an earlier post, Lester praises Al Qaeda as a "force to drive others out of their countries" but says nothing of their mistreatment of women.

I guess that's a small price to pay for Al Qaeda's rock star status with Les and all their fanboys in Liberal La La Land?   Add potential mysoginist to Les' list.

[indianasmith]

You're never going to persuade Lester to agree with you when it comes to foreign policy - he is strictly an America first, isolationist thinker.  He has a good deal in common with the Republican party of the 1930's in that regard.  Of course, I think they were wrong too! LOL

However, he is NOT a Liberal.  He despises all government overreaches and expansions of power.

Personally, I say abolish the Congress and the Constitution and make me supreme emperor of the U.S.  I could get things fixed up in a jiffy!

Now . . . . what were we talking about?

[Umaril The Unfeathered]

You're never going to persuade Lester to agree with you when it comes to foreign policy - he is strictly an America first, isolationist thinker.  He has a good deal in common with the Republican party of the 1930's in that regard.  Of course, I think they were wrong too! LOL

However, he is NOT a Liberal.  He despises all government overreaches and expansions of power.

Personally, I say abolish the Congress and the Constitution and make me supreme emperor of the U.S.  I could get things fixed up in a jiffy!

Now . . . . what were we talking about?

So let me get Lester straight...we should abolish our Secret Service (our first line of defense) because of a few sh#t deals?  Does Lester think OTHER countries should do the same with theirs, or just America?  And does he see other countries as inherently evil, or just America?

And in his desire to pin something on American govt. he overlooks the fact that Wikileaks could easily start a war between one or more countries as they throw gas on something that was unfounded to begin with?  Are you going to tell me that ALL of Wikileaks is true?

Is he (or you for that matter) willing to risk the possible start of WW3 because of someone's deliberate lies?  Is this level of desire for truth worth the potential consequences, especially if it uses it's own version of the truth to tell a lie?

Have they thought that many more innocent people are going to get smeared from the implications of those who care neither for truth or lie as long as they get their desired effect?  There ARE other things to consider.

Are you or anyone going to tell me that Wikileaks is being totally honest?  I see, he can question, but I or anyone else can't?  If Les were so concerned about America he'd realize both parties have the right to question motives, not just he and his rapist friend Assange.

[Andrew]

This thread has also degenerated into a bunch of name calling.  Which is a shame, because there was quite a bit of thoughtful and respectful discussion by most everyone involved.  Locked.