Faith

[lester1/2jr]

indiana - bleak in the sense that he is alone on the cross after being betrayed and abandoned and even God seemingly abandons him. and the original ending is a bit more open ended than the revisions. its not to challenge that a ressurection happened. its just that he received the treatment anti authority figures tend to get: thrown under the bus and vilified in their own time and lauded later by people who realized what he represented

[Svengoolie 3]

I think most christians suffer from a very primitive "Like me=good. not like me=bad" mentality and kind of, deep down, like the idea of those who are not like them being crushed and suffering for all eternity. Ditto for muslims.

I have a more cosmopolitan, egalitarian mindset and find the idea of eternal agony and suffering for the majority of people absolutely intolerable. there are people i would not like to have in the same afterlife i went to if there is one, and there are people i'd like to see sent to a sort of correctional hell to show them how their actions affected others, but eternal hell is just an evil, terrorist concept meant to terrorize people into bowing to a particular social form. I cannot believe any mind that could create a universe could be so small, petty, childish and evil to do that.

You could say I have faith that no being that could create the intricate universe we have, quantum mechanics, etc, could be that barbaric.

[indianasmith]

That is one of the great objections to Christianity that has been raised many times, Svengoolie, and it's a valid question.
If I may point you to the best answer to it I have ever read, there is a book by Lee Strobel called THE CASE FOR FAITH that has a whole chapter on the question of hell.  It's a very good read, and whether you wind up agreeing with it or not, I think you might find it interesting.

[Alex]

Been thinking for a while about posting on this thread. Going to get back to the OP a bit.

For me RC, faith isn't a bad thing, but then equally faith does not have to be in any way connected to religion. You can have faith in an ideal, someone you look up to, science, little green men from Mars, your fellow human beings or any number of things without having to go near religion. I've met the heads of two major world religions and a few who founded their own smaller ones. Some seemed delusional, others genuinely nice people who wanted to make the world a better place. None of them ever had any kind of holy aura about them, or anything that would make them stand out from anyone else in the street and despite many long debates and arguments none of them were ever able to give me anything that would make me doubt my belief's and switch to theirs. I've also read the books of and spoken to various scientists and athiests many of whom denounced religions so vehemently I couldn't tell the difference between them and a religious zealot. Both seem inclined to force their views on others and be equally unaccepting of others views.

What I think you are needing most isn't faith in a god though. Some people go down that path and it works for them and that is great as long as they don't try forcing it on other people in either hard or soft ways. What I think you need faith in first of all is you. If you are unhappy with your life, it is never to late to start to turn it around. I just think you need that faith in yourself that you can do it and I hope you can find it.

Jumping onto the later posts. Given the requirements to get in and the people who wouldn't be allowed in I think I'd rather suffer in hell than be with the smug gits in heaven. Should the rapture ever come, I can't remember the exact number, but isn't it around 100,000 people on earth get saved? Given how many people their are on earth currently your odds of being one of them are pretty damn low, but the idea of being lifted up and saved while everyone else suffers whatever fate does not sit easy with me. But then I also turned down the chance to go for my commission as I tend to view officers as being smug gits who I didn't want to have to spend more time with than necessary so I many be biased there.

On a slightly lighter note, with the sheer number of religions out there who for the most part tell you that they are the only way to salvation how would you even start to pick out which one is right? Might as well stick their names in a hat and pick one at random. When I was in my mid twenties I sat down and made a list of all the things I'd expect from a benevolent deity and what I wouldn't. I think looked in the belief's of as many of the worlds religions as I could and all of them fell short of what I'd expect from any creature who expected my worship and devotion, so I am mostly athiest. I'm prepared to be proved wrong though.

In the meantime, I'll stick with pagan gods on the basis of, well I might not 100% believe in them but at least they generally knew how to have fun and didn't claim to be perfect.

[indianasmith]

Well said and reasoned out, Alex.

One slight correction: while interpretations vary, the Bible NEVER lists the number of people who are going to be "caught up."
The figure you mention is probably the 144,000 cited in Revelations.  But that is not the total number who are saved or raptured; it is the number of Jewish proselytes who will be preaching on the earth during the time of the Beast.

As for the rest - it is a matter of individual choice to believe in God or not believe.  For me and ER, the evidence of Christianity is strong enough.  It might not be for you - but I appreciate your willingness to discuss it without being rude or inflexible.  Tip o' the hat, sir!

[ER]

Been thinking for a while about posting on this thread. Going to get back to the OP a bit.

For me RC, faith isn't a bad thing, but then equally faith does not have to be in any way connected to religion. You can have faith in an ideal, someone you look up to, science, little green men from Mars, your fellow human beings or any number of things without having to go near religion. I've met the heads of two major world religions and a few who founded their own smaller ones. Some seemed delusional, others genuinely nice people who wanted to make the world a better place. None of them ever had any kind of holy aura about them, or anything that would make them stand out from anyone else in the street and despite many long debates and arguments none of them were ever able to give me anything that would make me doubt my belief's and switch to theirs. I've also read the books of and spoken to various scientists and athiests many of whom denounced religions so vehemently I couldn't tell the difference between them and a religious zealot. Both seem inclined to force their views on others and be equally unaccepting of others views.

What I think you are needing most isn't faith in a god though. Some people go down that path and it works for them and that is great as long as they don't try forcing it on other people in either hard or soft ways. What I think you need faith in first of all is you. If you are unhappy with your life, it is never to late to start to turn it around. I just think you need that faith in yourself that you can do it and I hope you can find it.

Jumping onto the later posts. Given the requirements to get in and the people who wouldn't be allowed in I think I'd rather suffer in hell than be with the smug gits in heaven. Should the rapture ever come, I can't remember the exact number, but isn't it around 100,000 people on earth get saved? Given how many people their are on earth currently your odds of being one of them are pretty damn low, but the idea of being lifted up and saved while everyone else suffers whatever fate does not sit easy with me. But then I also turned down the chance to go for my commission as I tend to view officers as being smug gits who I didn't want to have to spend more time with than necessary so I many be biased there.

On a slightly lighter note, with the sheer number of religions out there who for the most part tell you that they are the only way to salvation how would you even start to pick out which one is right? Might as well stick their names in a hat and pick one at random. When I was in my mid twenties I sat down and made a list of all the things I'd expect from a benevolent deity and what I wouldn't. I think looked in the belief's of as many of the worlds religions as I could and all of them fell short of what I'd expect from any creature who expected my worship and devotion, so I am mostly athiest. I'm prepared to be proved wrong though.

In the meantime, I'll stick with pagan gods on the basis of, well I might not 100% believe in them but at least they generally knew how to have fun and didn't claim to be perfect.

Considering Hinduism has a third of a billion gods, Alex, if you went that route you could have some anthropomorphic deity all to yourself.  Might I recommend one of those with human female bodies from the neck down? 

[Alex]

Been thinking for a while about posting on this thread. Going to get back to the OP a bit.

For me RC, faith isn't a bad thing, but then equally faith does not have to be in any way connected to religion. You can have faith in an ideal, someone you look up to, science, little green men from Mars, your fellow human beings or any number of things without having to go near religion. I've met the heads of two major world religions and a few who founded their own smaller ones. Some seemed delusional, others genuinely nice people who wanted to make the world a better place. None of them ever had any kind of holy aura about them, or anything that would make them stand out from anyone else in the street and despite many long debates and arguments none of them were ever able to give me anything that would make me doubt my belief's and switch to theirs. I've also read the books of and spoken to various scientists and athiests many of whom denounced religions so vehemently I couldn't tell the difference between them and a religious zealot. Both seem inclined to force their views on others and be equally unaccepting of others views.

What I think you are needing most isn't faith in a god though. Some people go down that path and it works for them and that is great as long as they don't try forcing it on other people in either hard or soft ways. What I think you need faith in first of all is you. If you are unhappy with your life, it is never to late to start to turn it around. I just think you need that faith in yourself that you can do it and I hope you can find it.

Jumping onto the later posts. Given the requirements to get in and the people who wouldn't be allowed in I think I'd rather suffer in hell than be with the smug gits in heaven. Should the rapture ever come, I can't remember the exact number, but isn't it around 100,000 people on earth get saved? Given how many people their are on earth currently your odds of being one of them are pretty damn low, but the idea of being lifted up and saved while everyone else suffers whatever fate does not sit easy with me. But then I also turned down the chance to go for my commission as I tend to view officers as being smug gits who I didn't want to have to spend more time with than necessary so I many be biased there.

On a slightly lighter note, with the sheer number of religions out there who for the most part tell you that they are the only way to salvation how would you even start to pick out which one is right? Might as well stick their names in a hat and pick one at random. When I was in my mid twenties I sat down and made a list of all the things I'd expect from a benevolent deity and what I wouldn't. I think looked in the belief's of as many of the worlds religions as I could and all of them fell short of what I'd expect from any creature who expected my worship and devotion, so I am mostly athiest. I'm prepared to be proved wrong though.

In the meantime, I'll stick with pagan gods on the basis of, well I might not 100% believe in them but at least they generally knew how to have fun and didn't claim to be perfect.

Considering Hinduism has a third of a billion gods, Alex, if you went that route you could have some anthropomorphic deity all to yourself.  Might I recommend one of those with human female bodies from the neck down? 

Thank you ER, now in my head I have some sort of wierd hentai thing going on with Ganesh and that trunk of his. I am just going out to order some mind bleach.

[Rev. Powell]

I used to argue about religion, but then I thought, what would happen if I won the argument? I'd convince some poor guy to give up a belief that brought him comfort? Now I just live and let live. Believe whatever you want, as long as you're not stepping on my toes I don't care.

[ER]

I used to argue about religion, but then I thought, what would happen if I won the argument? I'd convince some poor guy to give up a belief that brought him comfort? Now I just live and let live. Believe whatever you want, as long as you're not stepping on my toes I don't care.

Also, as I used to think, just imagine if you removed the hope of faith from someone and changed her whole life. That'd be heavy.

[Svengoolie 3]

Taking away belief in Christianity could be wonderful.  You could free someone from living in fear of a giant invisible man living way up in the sky on a cloud who will send them to an eternal flame  for not groveling to him.  You could free someone from feeling they gave to reject a loved one because that person isn't a halohead too.  You could free them from hating themselves because something about them doesn't pass holy roster.

http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/whos-your-daddy/

[Alex]

Trouble is, if you take it away I can promise you people would just replace it with something else that would have the same kind of benefits and drawbacks. The positive thing about hell though is that it is always going to be the right weather for a BBQ, which is why I plan on being buried with some steaks and my favourite beers.

[ER]

Taking away belief in Christianity could be wonderful.  You could free someone from living in fear of a giant invisible man living way up in the sky on a cloud who will send them to an eternal flame  for not groveling to him.  You could free someone from feeling they gave to reject a loved one because that person isn't a halohead too.  You could free them from hating themselves because something about them doesn't pass holy roster.

http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/whos-your-daddy/

You make me nostalgic since you remind me of myself as a teenager, though I was more open-minded and courteous, less convinced I knew enough to make absolute declarations, and also I had a better vocabulary.

As I said, and which you didn't do, explain the resurrection as a fraud in ways that cover every known fact and you'll have my genuine gratitude.

This topic grows stale. On to the next...

[lester1/2jr]

some of this is based on peoples personalities

Some people just aren't religious and some are and some of those people are born or fall into what is probably the wrong category for them.

people in weird cults based on UFO's and whatnot would probably be better of in a normal church, but wouldn't make good atheists bcuz part of their way of getting through life depends on faith in higher powers. People who don't connect with the idea of God and spirituality can recite the lords prayer all day and its just not going to mean what its supposed to for them, other than being blandly sort of nice.

My brother in law is an atheist and I can't picture him being anything else.


it gets to the heart of what really IS a religion?

What if you were a conservative Muslim who lived that way and felt it was the best but just really didn't believe that the arch angel Gabriel actually whispered the quran into Muhammed's ear ( if thats what it is I can't remember) are you still a Muslim?

Thats why I've always been interested in what people do as opposed to what they allegedly believe. The first Christians stopped  the practice of sacrificing animals, for example. whether they actually pooled their wealth , practiced chastity, rejected race and class and so forth who knows but the point is what something is IN PRACTICE and as a lifestyle is maybe better evidence of something than its holy books, which were written by human beings and ultimately are prey to human error and so forth.


otherwise it just becomes a holier than thou p**sing contest. how many Christians understand what the trinity is supposed to be, how many Jews have read the Talmud? how many Buddhists actually believe buddha cried or something and that first tear produced the first tea leave?

[Paquita]

When I was 10 and reading ahead in one of my textbooks in class, I ran across a Chinese version of a famous parable about the difference between Heaven and Hell.  I think the most popular version is called "The Parable of the Long Spoons".  The version I read had chopsticks.  Anyway, later in life, this parable kind of gave me the idea that, in very casual terms, God is throwing a party and doesn't want to invite the a-holes.  The a-holes' only punishment is to be in the company of their own kind.   Through our life, we present which of us is truly wicked through our words, actions, thoughts, etc., and only God will know who is virtuous for their own selfish purposes and who is sincerely good by nature.

Also, to piggy-back off what Alex posted in another thread, I don't think the devil's greatest trick was to convince people he doesn't exist.  After all, I think anyone who chooses to be kind and lead a somewhat moral life without a promise of reward or fear of punishment is a much better person than your average church lady.  Though I look forward to those people feeling salty in heaven.  I think the devil's, or rather evil's, greatest trick is to exist under the guise of good.

I have faith, but I don't go to church.  I can't stomach sitting through lectures that are guilting, pressuring, or frightening people into believing something or behaving a certain way.  I also don't like being called a sinner like it's an occupation.  I know they all aren't like that, but I think too many of them are.  I believe in Jesus, but I agree that too much of Catholicism/Christianity/whatever religion is muddled with historical corruption, and it's hard to trust churches.   I decided long ago that if I go to hell for being who I am, then I gladly accept my fate and I will be in good company.

[ER]

Missed ya, Paq.