OT: Graphics Card

[odinn7]

Back to more computer illiterate questions from me...

Well, some of you may recall that a few months ago I purchased a new Dell Dimension 3000 (P4 2.8 ghz) system for home use. The thing has been great so far and has done anything and everything that I have needed it to do...that is until now.
I saw the F.E.A.R. game and wanted to try the demo version of it because frankly, it looks like a game that dreams are made of (haha). From what I have read, this game is a graphics killer and many systems are incapabale of playing it. I tried anyway and it didn't work. So I could live with that but then I tried the Doom3 demo and I have to have the quality setting all the way low and it will hang up now and then and that really blows. So, I have determined that my system will play Land of the Dead with no problem, Doom3 barely, will not touch F.E.A.R., has major shading issues with Area5,1 but will play all of my older games with no problem (AvP 1 and 2, Soldier of Fortune, Secret Service). Yes, I'm rambling. My wife says I should be happy with this but alas, I am never happy. I would like to be able to play Doom3 and I figure if I can play that, I should have relatively few issues with most other games (FEAR not included!).
I know very little about graphics cards other than the one I have now is an integrated card (yes, Trek warned me months ago) and I installed a PNY Verto GeForce MX100/200 in my old system years ago and it took nothing to do it. What I need to know from you computer experts is what you can recommend to me as far as brand and all that which would allow me to get into the almost modern age of gaming.
My system has a PCI slot but that also confuses me since I have seen cards that say PCI-Express and PCI-e so I would have to assume those would not be compatible, or would they? Also, remember that I'm trying to save up $600,000 to buy the house and chick that I posted about so I also don't want to spend a fortune.
Any help?

[ThadC]

Try this site.     http://www.buydirectpc.com/show.go?id=M-DG-960-I

I just ordered a whole new PC of the build your own game machine page. There is a list of graphics cards that should work, just depends on your machine.

[Ed, Ego and Superego]

I have the same problem.  My "Integrated Graphics Processor" in the eMAchine I bought a couple years ago cannot handle much in the way of games.  Luckily, I am not into cutting edge gaming, but its a hassle.  
-Ed

[ulthar]

Your system undoubtedly has a PCI slot (or more than one), but those are not used for today's graphics cards.  It may have an AGP slot, of say 4x variety.  Even AGP is sorta out dated now.

PCI Express is different from PCI.  PCI slots are for things like internal modems, network cards, serial ports, sound cards, etc. PCI Express is a graphics interface that is newer than the AGP interface.  I don't know if your Dell system has a PCI-Express slot; if not, you probably want to check into an AGP board.

(You can get graphics cards for regular PCI slots, but these won't be high end by any stretch of the imagination...bandwidth to the CPU is way too small).

One difference between old video adaptors and newer ones is the presence of a so-called Graphics Processing Unit (GPU).  These are processors present on the video adaptor that actually handle much of the vector calculations for the graphics rendering, thus off loading that computation from the main system CPU.  This frees the main CPU to do things like AI and physics calculations.  A lot of modern games 'require' this level of parallelism, so even if you have a FAST system CPU, a weak (or non existent) GPU in the video adaptor leaves you with a system that does not meet the minimum specs.

Gaming systems tend to be expensive for this reason - they have rather high end hardware, not just a certain MHz CPU.

For PCI-Express, if your board has a slot, I can recommend the NVidia GeForce PCX5300 as a lower end PCI Express board.  You can pick them up for about $50. It only has 128 MB RAM on board, which is light for modern games.  You'll want to check the games' mininum recommended specs to see what they require.

If you really want the cheese, check out SLI boards...but it is doubtful your DELL mother board supports that.  Higher end main boards can now take TWO graphics cards and 'dual process' across the GPU's.  In a manner of speaking, such a system would have THREE processors (the main system CPU and two GPU's).

Herein lies perhaps the main problem with DELL (and Gateway, and other 'package' systems).  It is often difficult to customize them (and what about your warranty??). A lot of times, DELLs are not really compatible with other after market components.  If your system DOES have a PCI-Express slot, do some research before you buy one to see if others have added the board you are considering to a DELL of the your model with success.  And that still might not mean anything, since not all DELLs of a given model have exactly the same components.

[Mr_Vindictive]

Odinn,

Unfortuantly, your computer probably does not have PCI Express (PCI-E).  Only the really new high end motherboards carry it.

Your best bet would be to find an 8x AGP video card.  I'm sure that your motherboard supports AGP, most newer Dells do.  AGP stands for Advanced Graphical Port and was and pretty much still is the standard for video cards.  

I am currently using an ATI Radeon 9800Pro, and I can run Doom 3 pretty well.  F.E.A.R. is a different story though.  I have to crank down the graphics on it for it to become playable and not just a slide show.  

If you are looking for a great gaming video card, then I would recommend the new ATI Radeon X700.  I'm a huge fan of ATI's products, and have had great luck with them so far.  I'm actually thinking about getting an X700 myself, and they come in AGP and PCI-E models.  Last Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, a retailer had them for 99.00.  I checked at a Best Buy yesterday and they are 199.00 right now.  Keep an eye out and the price should go down.  I paid about 200.00 for my current 9800Pro earlier this year.

Another thing to consider would be more RAM.  I'm running 512MB PC3200 right now, and I'm considering putting in either another stick of 512 or a stick of 1024MB sometime soon.  That will definently boost your gaming performance.


Hope I've been some help.  As for buying any parts, I recommend newegg.com.  They're about the best online parts retailer.

[Mr_Vindictive]

Ulthar,


SLI...............................


~drool~

[ulthar]

I've got two systems with ASUS A8N-SLI Deluxes...but alas, I am not using SLI graphics cards. I just have a single PCI-Express adapter in each.  BUT..they are both Athlon64 X2's, and they ROCK.  I use 'em as a 4P headless cluster with GbE interconnect.

So, I really have not USED SLI...maybe someday.

;)

[odinn7]

Well, as I suspected, ulthar has once again been able to confuse me...

Seriously, I had the case open yesterday and all I saw was standard PCI slots and nothing that looked remotely like an AGP slot at all.
I was looking at some cards on newegg.com and saw an eVGA GeForce FX5200 and also the FX5500 which are both PCI and many of the reviewers on the 5200 mention that they bought it specifically for the Dimension 3000 like I have. I now have to really figure that all I have are PCI slots. I will check again but I am fairly certain.
It appears that Dell (and others to be fair) skimp in certain areas to keep the prices low. In this case it is with the integrated card and obviously the outdated motherboard. I saw something online that mentions that if your system is newer than 5 years old, you most likely have AGP...haha, not on low-end package deals apparently.
Anyway, I can't really talk sh*t about my system as it was a good deal and like I said, it does everything I wanted except for now I have this bug up my butt about playing slightly more modern games. It was my fault really as I could have spent more time researching and I would have known all of this ahead of time. I did upgrade the HD to 80gb, added a DVD player, and got 512mb of memory when I got it but now I see that I should have looked into something more expandable. Maybe next time I will have to have one of you guys build me something.
Still,  assuming that I am stuck with PCI, anyone have any comments on the eVGA FX5200 and FX5500 (I assume the 5500 is better? I dunno).



Post Edited (11-28-05 14:52)

[ulthar]

A couple of reviews on the GeForce FX 5200 you might want to check out:

GeForce FX 5200 Review 1
GeForce FX 5200 Review 2

Notice the dates.  From my first glance at the second article, it looks like the FX 5200 is an AGP 8x board.  Are you SURE you don't have an AGP slot (they are usually white and are often more in the center of the main board; if you have the main board manual, it should list it if it is there)?

The FX 5200 has 128 MB video RAM on board, so before buying this one, make sure it meets the need of the games you wish to play.  They currently retail for about $38 - $56.

On the FX 5500:

GeForce FX 5500 Review

This one is also an AGP board, and has 256 MB video RAM.  Retailing for $75-$100, they may be the better buy than the FX 5200; larger video RAM is worth a LOT when playing games.

Also, don't neglect the ATI boards Skaboi mentioned.

[odinn7]

Thanks for the review links ulthar.
I am 95% sure that I'm dealing with PCI slots. I looked online at the Dell site and after some research it appears that the Dimension 3000 uses a different board than the next model up. My guess is they had a warehouse full of older boards and they grabbed them for the low-end models.
Here is a pic of the inside of my tower:



The slots are just over 3" long and none look any different or are hidden anywhere that look like AGP slots are supposed to look. I will contact Dell if you think I should but I think you will agree with me that these look like PCI slots.

Going with the PCI assumption, it looks like there is no option for the cards that you mentioned Skaboi. As you computer guys know, I am somewhat limited in my choices now because of this. I do appreciate your help though as always. I think the next time I want a computer, I will pay you two to consult each other and then when you're done, you two can fight to the death. The survivor will build my new system of course.

I realize that the review links show the 5200 and 5500 cards as AGP but they are sold as AGP and PCI as the links below are from newegg.com.

FX5200
FX5500

[Mr_Vindictive]

Odinn,

You are right on the money.  No AGP slot there.

I'm really amazed.  I do freelance computer repair on the side, and I've worked on numerous Dell computers, ranging from cheap to medium priced and most have had an AGP slot.  I am honestly shocked that Dell didn't include this as a standard on the board.

Your best bet is a PCI card.  You won't be able to get a great one, but you certainly can get a decent one.

[odinn7]

The key words here are: Cheap and Package Deal

Don't get me wrong, I still like the computer but I now see why they have such great sales at times.

[Mr_Vindictive]

odinn7 wrote:

> The key words here are: Cheap and Package Deal
>
> Don't get me wrong, I still like the computer but I now see why
> they have such great sales at times.
>

LOL

Yeah, their deals do seem to be too good to be true, and in most cases, they are.

I would recommend building a PC the next time around.  I've probably invested about 400.00 or so in mine, and it is comparable to a 1,000 dollar AlienWare machine.

DIY is the best way when it comes to this sort of thing.

[odinn7]

Skaboi wrote:

> odinn7 wrote:
>
> > The key words here are: Cheap and Package Deal
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I still like the computer but I now see
> why
> > they have such great sales at times.
> >
>
> LOL
>
> Yeah, their deals do seem to be too good to be true, and in
> most cases, they are.
>
> I would recommend building a PC the next time around.  I've
> probably invested about 400.00 or so in mine, and it is
> comparable to a 1,000 dollar AlienWare machine.
>
> DIY is the best way when it comes to this sort of thing.
>

I honestly don't think I could do it. I wouldn't even know where to start and I would worry that too many things would be incompatible with each other. The way I see it is that there is just too much that could go wrong and cause me problems. I'm ok with replacing things as I have replaced cards and drives before but actually starting from the bottom would be too much of a task.

[Mr_Vindictive]

Odinn7,

That's what I thought the first time as well.  It's actually pretty simple.  The processor is extremely easy to install, but the fan can be an aggravation.  The RAM just snaps in, and you already know about installing cards/drives and such.

The only thing that can really cause headaches is the connections for the motherboard.  You have to connect the on/off switch, reset switch, hard drive light, etc for your case to the motherboard and that can be confusing sometimes.  But, as long as you follow the instructions, it's pretty easy.

Or, you could buy a barebones kit.  Most come with the motherboard already in the case, with all of it wired.  You just have to install the processor, ram, and drives.