OT- Yet Another Computer Related Question

[odinn7]

I'm sorry for these questions but I need an opinion here for my DSL service.

I have DSL through Verizon at home and I've been paying $29.95/month for service that's supposed to be rated at 1.5mbps. However, due to problems with the phone lines in our area, I have only been able to achieve 700k or so, which to me is fine. This is directly related to my phone lines and is a whole different can of worms that I have over the years just decided to live with. Anyway, I now see that Verizon offers DSL service at $14.95/month for up to 768k. I would prefer to pay the $14.95 price and have contacted them about it and they told me it's possible to do so if I want to, but I need to be aware of the difference in speed. Now, if you've followed me so far, more power to ya as I'm often confusing.
What I want you techs to let me know about is if you think that paying the lesser amount will drastically reduce my speed even though I am only getting around 700k anyway. The way I see it is if I'm paying for 1.5 service and can only get 700k out of the phone line then I should still be able to get 700 out of the line if I'm paying for 768 service, correct? Or is there the possibility that it will also split the speed in half through my line? I suppose even if it does that, over 300k is still fine for my home use.
Any ideas on this?

[Menard]

Thanks for the heads up on the Verizon service. I'll check them out for my local area.

I would think along the same lines as you, that you should get about the same performance, or close to it, considering if the problem with the phone lines is that it has a maximun bandwidth it will allow. If the line is just simply lossy, then there probably would be an equivalent loss in the new service as well. Just my opinion, but I want to see what Skaboi and Ulthar have to say; after all, they scored the highest on that geek test. (:

Recently, my sister got this DSL Lite service from our phone company, which does not require a special jack. It would have been nice if they had mentioned to her that it does require a network card, as she does not have one on her computer.

It seems that in order for them to get a faster connection and allow phone service without a modified connection that they have reduced the allowed bandwidth for dial-up, as no computer in the house can connect above 28K at this point. I am waiting impatiently for her to dump the service, which she is not using, so we can get our internet connection back to reasonable.

[ulthar]

Short answer: yes, lowering your service will lower your bandwidth.  

A bit longer answer: The 1.5 Mb/s or 768 Mb/s are theoretical and assume a point-to-point connection between two computers doing absolutely nothing else.  That means the transfer rates you OBSERVE are based on net latency (which is different from bandwidth) of the entire path between you and the computer you are connecting to.  You have to consider the latencies of all the routers between connection points, as well as the latency of the server itself.

For example, suppose I connect two computers with a 1Mb/s link.  But, the server is busy doing a lot of things (serving to other computers, for example), so that you are not getting 100% of the capability of that server.  You may not (probably won't) see the 1Mb/s data transfer rate you think you should.
Now, multiply this by the myriad of routers between you and the server when on the Internet, and you see why you have lower than theoretical transfer rates.

Also, there is protocol overhead.  The software you have that is 'reporting' to you x bits per second may only be counting actual payload data.  All the handshaking may not be counted.

Also, sometimes we look at BYTES/sec (B/s) rather than BITS/sec (b/s).  It just depends.  1 Mb/s would be 125 kB/s.  Just more fly in the ointment.

Anyway, the upshot is that there is a difference between bandwidth and latency.  Bandwidth is the size of the pipe (the amount of data that CAN get through in a given time), whereas latency is the sum of all the delays during a real transfer.  The smaller the bandwidth, the more effect subtle latencies will have, so a smaller pipe will generally lead to lower transfer rates.

Hope this helps.

[trekgeezer]

I'm not familiar with Verizon, but most of the phone companies I deal with at work really don't guarantee the top speed. SBC sells and standard home service of 384k, but you can upgrade to 384k-1.5m which means 384k is guaranteed but you could get up to 1.5m depending on your distance from the switch and line conditions..

You might try it if you are not getting any better than 700k. The only problem is that usually those prices are tied to a contract and have an early out fee you have pay if you decide to drop it before the contract runs out.

I've actually never been able to figure out how they regulate the speed to individual phone numbers. I would think that if the lines are carrying 700k now, they should still be able to do so if you switched.

[ulthar]

trek_geezer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I've actually never been able to figure out how
> they regulate the speed to individual phone
> numbers. I would think that if the lines are
> carrying 700k now, they should still be able to do
> so if you switched.
>

It's called throttling.  Basically, you put a device (or program running on a router) in line that limits throughput through the device.  You'll sometimes see this called traffic shaping when it is done to actually improve performance of heavily loaded networks (you throttle bandwidth hogs so everyone gets a little piece of the pie).

Depending on the level of service you pay for, you may connect to different upstream routers at the ISP.  These in turn may have different shapers running on them.

Look at it this way: if the ISP is selling two levels of service, 700 kb/s and 1.5 Mb/s for significantly different prices, their load for each service will differ.  That is, you will likely have far more users on the lower priced service.  So, you have more people sharing resources.  You can stick in a shaper to limit each user to the advertised rate, which will always be a MAXIMUM and is also subject to the latencies of the various routes even upstream of the ISP itself.

In other words, it takes different technology to deliver 'guaranteed' 1.5 Mb/s than 768 kb/s.  What you pay for is connection to the tech that gives you the service you are paying for.

[odinn7]

I'm already locked into a contract with them for a year so switching will not cause me a problem with them since I already asked. There is no penalty fee for me to pay unless I cancel their service completely which won't happen since they're all I've got for DSL where I live.

The story with the phone lines is that there is noise in the line which was always limiting my dial-up to no more than 26.4k. I have fought them on this and all they ever said was that they guarantee voice service over the line. I know there is noise in the line (probably older than I am) because I had a phone tech run a check on it and he told me so but when they found out that it was my concern for internet service they didn't care...and it's outside the house but they refuse to do anything about it.
 
Now, with DSL, I was guaranteed over 384 when I signed up for the 1.5 service (which is all they offered at the time) but I don't know what the guarantee is with the 768 service. I think I kind of understand what ulthar is saying (wow, people tell me I'm confusing!) and I realize that there is a possibility that I could wind up way slower than I would hope.

This is tough because I really don't want to switch and then have them switch it back again but when the wife found out it was available at half the price, she's been a nagging at me.

[ulthar]

Do you do a lot of large file downloads?  If not, there's a good chance you may not really notice much difference.  Do you know anyone who has the lower service so you can try it out?

[odinn7]

ulthar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you do a lot of large file downloads?  If not,
> there's a good chance you may not really notice
> much difference.  Do you know anyone who has the
> lower service so you can try it out?
>

Once in a great while I will download a large file but not too often. I know of no other person in my area who even has DSL. The neighbors that I do talk to are set in their ways and don't want evil computers in their houses.

[Mr_Vindictive]

I'm with Ulthar.  If you are mainly just browsing the web / popping email then there won't really be a noticable difference.

I would recommend trying it out.  If you are already in a contract then I don't see any reason why they wouldn't let you switch back to the more expensive service if you are not satisfied with the slower service.  

I work for an ISP that offers DSL, yet I use cable at home since the phone lines where I live are much worse than yours Odinn7.  As for your phone company saying that they only gurantee voice data, that is true.  When it comes to dial up for ISPs, most only gurantee 14.4k.

Anyway, I say try the DSL Lite and see how you like it.  It's still going to be a hell of a lot faster than dial up, and the price seems good.  If I had the option here, I'd jump all over it, instead of paying 40.00 for cable internet.

[odinn7]

Thanks for the help everyone. I guess it's a crap shoot either way and I won't know for sure until I try it. As was pointed out though, I probably will not even notice a difference. I'll let you know how it goes when I get it.

[odinn7]

Well, I made the switch and it became effective yesterday. I'm at 300-350k as an average (which I was at quite often with the higher cost service) and I have peaked a few times at 460+. With the other service I hit peaks of around 700k but didn't hold that too often. Overall, I haven't noticed any visible difference and am glad I made the switch now that I see this.

Thanks to everyone that offered their opinions and help on this.

[Mr_Vindictive]

Good to know that everything is working out w/ the DSL.  

Atleast the price is much better.  I wish I didn't have to pay 40.00 each month for broadband.

[ulthar]

Glad it's working for you.  It's always cool to CUT the cost of something.