Does God Exist?

[lester1/2jr]

great spaghetti monster in your example is another name for god.  so yes, the great spaghetti monster exists and is perfect

[ToyMan]

actually, the flying spaghetti monster is an argument for the absurdity of beliefs of divinity, so you've just said that faith in a "god" is a bunch of silly nonsense.

[CheezeFlixz]

They're no atheist in foxholes...


... and Jarlsberg is the best cheese.

[schmendrik]

great spaghetti monster in your example is another name for god.  so yes, the great spaghetti monster exists and is perfect

I don't want to argue for or against faith, the whole point of "faith" is that you believe without evidence or the need of proof. But I do want to argue against Aquinas' silly arguments, or the idea that there can be a scientific of philosophical proof of the existence of a God. I sketched one out to my wife yesterday. She's a very spiritual and intelligent woman, with not a lot of background in (or patience for) philosophy. As soon as I started saying "therefore God must exist" she started drawing big circles in the air and saying "circular argument".

OK, you made me do this:

1. The universe is run by 17 perfect beings named "Joe" who live in your basement, eating Cheese Whiz and pretzels and watching old reruns of Gilligan's Island. Since they are perfect beings, they don't even need a television to do so.

2. If they didn't exist, they wouldn't be perfect, would they?

3. Therefore statement number 1 must be true.

[Psycho Circus]

great spaghetti monster in your example is another name for god.  so yes, the great spaghetti monster exists and is perfect

I don't want to argue for or against faith, the whole point of "faith" is that you believe without evidence or the need of proof. But I do want to argue against Aquinas' silly arguments, or the idea that there can be a scientific of philosophical proof of the existence of a God. I sketched one out to my wife yesterday. She's a very spiritual and intelligent woman, with not a lot of background in (or patience for) philosophy. As soon as I started saying "therefore God must exist" she started drawing big circles in the air and saying "circular argument".

OK, you made me do this:

1. The universe is run by 17 perfect beings named "Joe" who live in your basement, eating Cheese Whiz and pretzels and watching old reruns of Gilligan's Island. Since they are perfect beings, they don't even need a television to do so.

2. If they didn't exist, they wouldn't be perfect, would they?

3. Therefore statement number 1 must be true.

Yes, so by that, even I could be god...

[lester1/2jr]

again, the 17 guys are just another name for god.  but you are arguing that in order to be perfect they HAVE to live in my basement and watch gilligans island which is not part of your definition for perfect.


also, why are people MAD at my 600 year old arguiment.  jeez

[ghouck]

You're still skirting the issue. YOU decided there is something, and that it is perfect, and are trying to pass of the fact YOU believe it is perfect as FACT, and then citing that supposed FACT, as proof it exists. CIRCULAR ARGUEMENT, period.

Also, nobody said they were MAD. This is simply an age-old tactic that people of faith use to try and discredit poeple who do not share the same beliefs: Make one's non-belief into anger or hatred. As for the 600 year old comment, didn't people think the world was flat 600 or so years ago?

[lester1/2jr]

I'm not trying to discredit anything in any age old fashion.  I'm just trying to participate in a thread.  it's light entertainment.

and I didn't decide that god was perfect.  I'm saying that God is by definition perfect.  that's the difference between god and man in the dictionary.  man makes mistake, god doesn't. 

[frank]

I'm not trying to discredit anything in any age old fashion.  I'm just trying to participate in a thread.  it's light entertainment.

and I didn't decide that god was perfect.  I'm saying that God is by definition perfect.  that's the difference between god and man in the dictionary.  man makes mistake, god doesn't. 

But who wrote the dictionary?

[ghouck]

I'm not trying to discredit anything in any age old fashion.  I'm just trying to participate in a thread.  it's light entertainment.

and I didn't decide that god was perfect.  I'm saying that God is by definition perfect.  that's the difference between god and man in the dictionary.  man makes mistake, god doesn't. 

Assigning the quality of "perfect" to something, real or not, does not prove it's existence. Not sure what is so hard to understand about that. Surely you'd not let that logic apply anywhere else.

As for discrediting people, I have a hard time believeing that. I've heard too many discussions about religeon that turn to "Why are you so mad" for no real reason just like you did, or "So tell me why you hate Jesus" for no apparent reason. The only explanation I have come up with is that it is a ploy to discredit. Accuse a person of being mad, associate that with defensiveness, and parlay that into insecurity. It's a simple tactic of diversion, just the same as labeling someone as evil and hate-filled by posing their non-belief as hatred.

As for "I didn't decide god was perfect", yes, you did. You were presented at some time with an idea. That idea was that there is a god, and that that god is perfect. you DECIDED thtat is a credible idea. You DECIDED that was the truth. By saying you didn't decide that, is just simply more "I'm right because I'm right". Again, more circular arguement.

[Menard]

But who wrote the dictionary?

He did:

[Psycho Circus]

and I didn't decide that god was perfect.  I'm saying that God is by definition perfect.  that's the difference between god and man in the dictionary.  man makes mistake, god doesn't. 

I don't recall seeing that in the dictionary. Also, going by the 'ol circular logic, man makes mistakes, god made man - something imperfect, therefore god isn't perfect. 

[ghouck]

They're no atheist in foxholes...

I've never heard that said by anyone that has actually BEEN in a foxhole. I have been, and I'm still an Athiest. So guess again.. . . This is just crap said by people of faith to try and proclaim that only people of faith are brave enough to serve their country, and try and claim that deep down Athiests know they are wrong. It is incorrect, and most people that say that will never find themselves in a foxhole, therefor will never know how wrong they are.

[Psycho Circus]

[Jim H]

They're no atheist in foxholes...

I've never heard that said by anyone that has actually BEEN in a foxhole. I have been, and I'm still an Athiest. So guess again.. . . This is just crap said by people of faith to try and proclaim that only people of faith are brave enough to serve their country, and try and claim that deep down Athiests know they are wrong. It is incorrect, and most people that say that will never find themselves in a foxhole, therefor will never know how wrong they are.

In extreme situations, some people move away from religion, others begin to believe in it.  I don't know which is more common.  That's about the best summation, I think.

I've talked to a few combat veterans before, that's what basically all of them seem to say. 

In any case, I still like the quote I've heard about that...  "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes." from James Murrow.