Supreme Court Hearings on the Affordable Health Care Act (PT)

[tracy]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

[Flick James]

I will say this, statistics can be used to fudge an argument, in the case above, in favor of more govt. control of one's health. I know that's  not your intention, but, I've seen those statistics many times used in favor of govt. control.

That's true. They can be and are used to justify many arguments. It doesn't make any of them true or untrue.

The statistics you state are mostly from nations with highly controlled immigration and population control, unlike the tens of millions of mostly already in poor health folks who flood the USA every year.

The statistics I'm referring to are simply a statement of life expectancy. Something that the U.S. was once number one in, and is consistently falling. Interpret it any way you want to. I never said it was the primary or only indicator of national health, but as far as indicators go, it's certainly a valid one.

Also, the 'life expectancy' says nothing of the quality of living longer and suffering with medications, machines.

There's a lot of things it doesn't say, including that countries with socialized healthcare are keeping people painfully and sufferingly alive as you appear to be suggesting.

I could quote statistics like how the #1 life expectancy people of Japan have a much higher death rate of stomach cancer than the USA or how 'wealthy' Canadians cross the border to get procedures they would otherwise  have to wait for leading to their life expectancy being higher?

Yes, you could do that. The evidence that Japanese people have a higher incidence of stomach cancer than the U.S. is certainly available and appears to be pretty valid. I just don't know what it demonstrates. So, Japanese are outliving us despite having higher incidence of stomach cancer? Wouldn't that suggest a superior rather than inferior healthcare system?

As for Canada, I'm not sure how to process your statement. Are you saying that wealthy Canadians come to the U.S. for healthcare? If so, in what numbers? Are you saying that wealthy Canadians coming to the U.S. for healthcare skews the life expectancy of Canadians? Canada must have an enormous number of wealth people. Holy crap, I'm moving to Canada! 

But, I just don't see as  life expectancy being all that important as  much as quality of living longer.

I happen to agree with you there. Again, what you haven't managed to do is demonstrate that all of these other countries have an inferior quality of living. Have you ever been to Australia or New Zealand? The quality of living is freaking amazing there AND they outlive us. Not to mention that "quality of living" is a pretty hazy term.

One's health should be an individuals responsibility first, not anyone's Govt. I had one 'Mommy and Daddy', thank you, and the only time I gave up my independence was for what  I thought was a  higher cause, serving in the US Armed Forces.  There has to be some sort of system, regrettably, but, like anything else out of one's hands it should be limited to when one can't help themselves any longer and not to just die in the street. The problem with modern healthcare goes way beyond funding and the root is  too centered on after the fact costly illness. Finally, medical intervention at all costs  to keep someone alive is insane. We are ALL going to die, we have to face it, no amount of  intervention  will stop it, many times prolonging it is  much worse than entering eternal rest.

I don't really disagree with you here, except I don't really know how military service fits into the argument. I served as well, six years in the U.S. Navy, but I'm not sure that that qualifies my opinion in any way. My personal experience was that the medical care sucked but the dental care was surprisingly excellent. But again, I don't know what that establishes.

This thread is really about the Supreme Court case about whether or not the U.S. government has the constitutional right to require citizens to have healthcare or suffer a tax penalty. It started getting into a debate about socialized healthcare in general, and I tend question claims or data that I find questionable, regardless of where it comes from. That's just something I do. You've presented a number of claims that I either find factually questionable or wonder what they are intended to suggest.

I have a tendency to challenge even those I agree with either partially or completely. Anybody who has gotten into discussions with me here over the past few years knows this about me. You may not know this about me yet, so I know that I run the risk of offending you or boiling your blood. I've done it many times with many members and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I'm a Devil's advocate. Indy can attest to that, and he and I have a very respectful relationship.

[Hammock Rider]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

  That's what it's all about, politicians appeasing big business to feather their own nests.

I'd love to get up before Congress and give the " Five years ago I'd have taken a flame thrower to this place!" speech Al Pacino gave near the end of Scent of a Woman.

[indianasmith]

Another telling statistic, though, is survival AFTER diagnosis with serious diseases such as cancer.  I know one statistic I heard a couple years ago was that, in Great Britain, the average survival rate after cancer diagnosis was SIX YEARS less than us.  I also know that, last summer when my mother-in-law fell and broke her hip, she had hip replacement surgery in less than 24 hours.  In Great Britain, the wait for hip and knee replacement may be six weeks to six months.

[Flick James]

Another telling statistic, though, is survival AFTER diagnosis with serious diseases such as cancer.  I know one statistic I heard a couple years ago was that, in Great Britain, the average survival rate after cancer diagnosis was SIX YEARS less than us.  I also know that, last summer when my mother-in-law fell and broke her hip, she had hip replacement surgery in less than 24 hours.  In Great Britain, the wait for hip and knee replacement may be six weeks to six months.

That seems to match what I've seen, but there's always the matter of how much you can trust the source and what the agenda of the source is. The best I can determine from sifting through what I've seen is that service in the UK is excellent when it comes to routine healthcare, but slow when it comes to specialist care and surgical procedures. The problem is that left agendized sources are going to dote on UK healthcare and right agendized sources are going to bash it. No surprise there. The only way one is truly going to know is either by living in the UK as a citizen, or having a firsthand knowledge of it by knowing a cross-section of people there who access healthcare regularly. You're certainly not going to get the straight dope from about 99% of media sources, because they've all got an agenda. Not a bias, and AGENDA! Sorry, Indy, but that includes right-leaning sources, even though I think you are inclined to believe they are more truthful than left-leaning ones. My opinion is that they both lie. Which one lies the less?

[indianasmith]

A good point. Take what you get from each, add them together, and divide by two.  Filter vigorously with reason, then fry the whole mess and eat it with a grain of salt and some Morel mushrooms.

[Trevor]

A good point. Take what you get from each, add them together, and divide by two.  Filter vigorously with reason, then fry the whole mess and eat it with a grain of salt and some Morel mushrooms.

I think that lot would taste better than the beer that President Obama had in the pub in Ireland. 

[Frank81]

I will say this, statistics can be used to fudge an argument, in the case above, in favor of more govt. control of one's health. I know that's  not your intention, but, I've seen those statistics many times used in favor of govt. control.

That's true. They can be and are used to justify many arguments. It doesn't make any of them true or untrue.

The statistics you state are mostly from nations with highly controlled immigration and population control, unlike the tens of millions of mostly already in poor health folks who flood the USA every year.

The statistics I'm referring to are simply a statement of life expectancy. Something that the U.S. was once number one in, and is consistently falling. Interpret it any way you want to. I never said it was the primary or only indicator of national health, but as far as indicators go, it's certainly a valid one.

Also, the 'life expectancy' says nothing of the quality of living longer and suffering with medications, machines.

There's a lot of things it doesn't say, including that countries with socialized healthcare are keeping people painfully and sufferingly alive as you appear to be suggesting.

I could quote statistics like how the #1 life expectancy people of Japan have a much higher death rate of stomach cancer than the USA or how 'wealthy' Canadians cross the border to get procedures they would otherwise  have to wait for leading to their life expectancy being higher?

Yes, you could do that. The evidence that Japanese people have a higher incidence of stomach cancer than the U.S. is certainly available and appears to be pretty valid. I just don't know what it demonstrates. So, Japanese are outliving us despite having higher incidence of stomach cancer? Wouldn't that suggest a superior rather than inferior healthcare system?

As for Canada, I'm not sure how to process your statement. Are you saying that wealthy Canadians come to the U.S. for healthcare? If so, in what numbers? Are you saying that wealthy Canadians coming to the U.S. for healthcare skews the life expectancy of Canadians? Canada must have an enormous number of wealth people. Holy crap, I'm moving to Canada! 

But, I just don't see as  life expectancy being all that important as  much as quality of living longer.

I happen to agree with you there. Again, what you haven't managed to do is demonstrate that all of these other countries have an inferior quality of living. Have you ever been to Australia or New Zealand? The quality of living is freaking amazing there AND they outlive us. Not to mention that "quality of living" is a pretty hazy term.

One's health should be an individuals responsibility first, not anyone's Govt. I had one 'Mommy and Daddy', thank you, and the only time I gave up my independence was for what  I thought was a  higher cause, serving in the US Armed Forces.  There has to be some sort of system, regrettably, but, like anything else out of one's hands it should be limited to when one can't help themselves any longer and not to just die in the street. The problem with modern healthcare goes way beyond funding and the root is  too centered on after the fact costly illness. Finally, medical intervention at all costs  to keep someone alive is insane. We are ALL going to die, we have to face it, no amount of  intervention  will stop it, many times prolonging it is  much worse than entering eternal rest.

I don't really disagree with you here, except I don't really know how military service fits into the argument. I served as well, six years in the U.S. Navy, but I'm not sure that that qualifies my opinion in any way. My personal experience was that the medical care sucked but the dental care was surprisingly excellent. But again, I don't know what that establishes.

This thread is really about the Supreme Court case about whether or not the U.S. government has the constitutional right to require citizens to have healthcare or suffer a tax penalty. It started getting into a debate about socialized healthcare in general, and I tend question claims or data that I find questionable, regardless of where it comes from. That's just something I do. You've presented a number of claims that I either find factually questionable or wonder what they are intended to suggest.

I have a tendency to challenge even those I agree with either partially or completely. Anybody who has gotten into discussions with me here over the past few years knows this about me. You may not know this about me yet, so I know that I run the risk of offending you or boiling your blood. I've done it many times with many members and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I'm a Devil's advocate. Indy can attest to that, and he and I have a very respectful relationship.

Statistics, as well as, debate can be manipulated if one takes selected quotes and statistics to bolster a case. ;)

The USA  was  number  1 in a lot of things  in the past due to many factors, my point in this case, is that statistics you used can be misleading and I stated my reasons why I believe they are misleading involving healthcare. There is a  statistic I saw recently used in an ad of  the number of people in 'danger'  of being hungry in our country? I mean, aren't we all in 'danger' of being hungry?


I was showing, by pulling up other facts about health care and health in general from the countries said to be doing better than us how statistics alone can be manipulated to make an argument for or against a health care system.

Canada, is  much smaller, population wise, nation and even a  small 'relief'  valve of  people  coming here for care can boost a  statistics as  our 12-20 million  illegal's  here can skewer our  standing.

I wasn't qualifying my opinion based on my service; I was using it as an example of leaving certain rights aside by choice as opposed to it being imposed by govt.

No, nothing on message boards offends me or surprises me; I take it as akin to bar-talk while watching a game. I will say this; it would serve well to not cut certain quotes, out of context, because like statistics, it changes the writer's intentions. 

[Flick James]

No, nothing on message boards offends me or surprises me; I take it as akin to bar-talk while watching a game. I will say this; it would serve well to not cut certain quotes, out of context, because like statistics, it changes the writer's intentions.

So, in other words, you are an adult and we'll get along just fine. 

[tracy]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

  That's what it's all about, politicians appeasing big business to feather their own nests.

I'd love to get up before Congress and give the " Five years ago I'd have taken a flame thrower to this place!" speech Al Pacino gave near the end of Scent of a Woman.

Wow....cool!

[RCMerchant]

I don't care-I have health insurance and I still get slammed with outrageous hospital bills,because I can't even afford the f**king deductible!!!!  

And-no-I think it's insane to try to force you to have health insurance-or insurance of any kind! It's smart to do so-but being stupid should be your option. 

[Frank81]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

I won't speak ill of the dead, but, I am not a  fan of the late Ann Richards. The biggest business of all is Big Govt. and we ened up paying. There is no ideal solution, but, I will say this, my dearly departed Mom used to have Blue Cross/Blue Shield and they were   wonnderful    compared to all the hacks, including govt. funded social workers and other things the Govt paid for to help her in the end.

[tracy]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

I won't speak ill of the dead, but, I am not a  fan of the late Ann Richards. The biggest business of all is Big Govt. and we ened up paying. There is no ideal solution, but, I will say this, my dearly departed Mom used to have Blue Cross/Blue Shield and they were   wonnderful    compared to all the hacks, including govt. funded social workers and other things the Govt paid for to help her in the end.

My Dad was a retired postman and he had Blue Cross/Blue Shield....they were a good outfit back then.

[Flick James]

I really disliked the Affordable Health Care Act simply because I do not think that any government should force their citizens to pay for health insurance

Absolutely!
I voted for Ann Richards for governor years back and one of the platforms I supported was insurance reform....her idea of reform was making it the law that everyone must have liability insurance on their car. It's just become another bill I struggle to pay every month along with several others. I know a number of folks that simply cannot afford it. Of course,she went on after being governor to being a highly paid consultant in NYC....for an insurance company!
I'm sick of the government stepping all over us to appease big business!

I won't speak ill of the dead, but, I am not a  fan of the late Ann Richards. The biggest business of all is Big Govt. and we ened up paying. There is no ideal solution, but, I will say this, my dearly departed Mom used to have Blue Cross/Blue Shield and they were   wonnderful    compared to all the hacks, including govt. funded social workers and other things the Govt paid for to help her in the end.

My Dad was a retired postman and he had Blue Cross/Blue Shield....they were a good outfit back then.

They still are. I had them with my last employer and it was the best insurance coverage and service I ever had. I've since had United and Aetna, and it has gotten progressively worse.

[indianasmith]

We have BCBS through my wife's job, and while it is expensive, it's awfully handy when you have a kid with health problems.