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The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!

Started by indianasmith, February 23, 2022, 11:16:30 PM

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Quote from: lester1/2jr on December 05, 2022, 12:39:01 AM
The Military Industrial complex appreciates you guys' support. war is peace, freedom is slavery
And China's MIC uses forced labor inside penal camps. Again, which side is worse? I'm sure the Chinese appreciate your ethnomasochism, lester.
What does not kill me makes me stranger.

Rev. Powell

Special military operation is peace.
I'll take you places the hand of man has not yet set foot...


As Americans, its our job to forgo things like free health insurance and modern infrastructure so we can police conflicts around the world. conflicts that pre date the forming of our country in many cases.

Nine of the 20 richest counties in the US are in the Washington DC suburbs. tax $$$


Can you name a country, past or present, where the rich didn't hold power, where the wealth was not concentrated near the seat of power? THAT is your great reveal on America's deficiencies?

I begin to sense your grudge is rooted in anger that the US shares traits in common with every state in human history. What about what Indy wrote? How about investing some b***hing about places that are truly terrible instead of a nation that stands for human rights, and whose all-terrible sin in your eyes seems to be the fact it is powerful and imperfect?

Do you know what a glorious aberration in history this nation is? And yet you nit-pick over flaws that have hamstrung every nation?

I've read some impressive posts you've made over the years, Chris, posts that showed true examples of evaluative thinking, but this US-bashing is simplistic moaning, and frankly beneath the intellect you've proven you have. It disappoints me, and I do mean that.
What does not kill me makes me stranger.


Quote from: indianasmith on December 04, 2022, 09:31:17 AM
So once again, everything bad is America's fault.

Many don't know this, but the U.S. is the strongest military force in the world, with a budget greater than that of the next nine military powers combined:

Not only that, but based on its annual budget, defense is also its largest expense:

In short, it spends more on the military than on health care or education.

Why is its military force so strong? It has no external or even immediate threats, and yet is responsible for mayhem on a global scale:

But it has effectively used consumer spending so successfully that most of its citizens can barely say anything about the same interventions, let alone point out on a map countries where "their" troops should intervene in the name of "freedom and democracy." From 2014, and of all places, a neocon/neolib cheerleader:

QuoteOn March 28-31, 2014, we asked a national sample of 2,066 Americans (fielded via Survey Sampling International Inc., or SSI), what action they wanted the U.S. to take in Ukraine, but with a twist: In addition to measuring standard demographic characteristics and general foreign policy attitudes, we also asked our survey respondents to locate Ukraine on a map as part of a larger, ongoing project to study foreign policy knowledge. We wanted to see where Americans think Ukraine is and to learn if this knowledge (or lack thereof) is related to their foreign policy views. We found that only one out of six Americans can find Ukraine on a map, and that this lack of knowledge is related to preferences: The farther their guesses were from Ukraine's actual location, the more they wanted the U.S.  to intervene with military force.


Too many Americans are poorly educated, I agree.
I have a master's degree in history and I have taught U.S. History, World History, World Geography, and U.S. Government for nearly 30 years.
I know exactly where Ukraine is, I know a bit about its history, and I know that Vladimir Putin, while he may not be crazy, is a ruthless dictator who has poisoned, jailed, and silenced all opposition for the last 20 years.
The world will be a better place when he is no longer in it.
"I shall smite you in the nostrils with a rod of iron, and wax your spleen with Efferdent!!"


Out of curiosity, ralfy, my good man, is this the sort of s**t academics sit around and talk about when they're alone? Y'know, instead of what it'd be like, for instance, to bang an angel?
What does not kill me makes me stranger.


Quote from: ER on December 04, 2022, 11:06:23 AM

That tends to be how most university-level academics see the world, and what's worse, they pass that erroneous mindset off to students at an impressionable age, perpetuating a shame and blame cycle. The prevalence of that outlook is one of two reasons I didn't become a college professor. (The other being I'd already entered a career at age seventeen.)

Several who have spoken up are not academics but journalists and low-level personnel on the run because they exposed the underlying dirt of U.S. foreign policies, including Julian Assange and Edward Snowden, and journalists who have spoken to them or who have been in front lines, like Glenn Greenwald and John Pilger.

And this is not a new phenomenon? Remember how the Pentagon Papers were exposed?

Also, many of those who initiated policies of containment and then later spoke up against them were not academics but leading government officials, like George Kennan and even Robert McNamara. Even those with didn't go to college and come from older generations should easily recognize the latter:

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Finally, I think any academics who criticize the U.S. do not influence the mindset of young Americans. Rather, the equivalent of B-movies, do. By that, I mean mass entertainment. That's why if you ask them about things like Hollywood movies, the Kardashians, and the NBA, they can answer questions easily. But ask them about their own country and of others, and don't expect much.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1


Quote from: Rev. Powell on December 04, 2022, 05:05:00 PM
Some things are America's fault. Other things, like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, are the fault of other countries.

(Also, almost nothing is ever ENTIRELY anyone's fault, there are always multiple factors in play.)

Which countries? The latter word is plural, so that means it's not just Russia, right?

I wonder if a few will realize that your last point is what I've been trying to stress all along.


Quote from: ER on December 04, 2022, 06:00:52 PM
FINALLY lester gets it!

QuoteAmerican exceptionalism is the belief that the United States is inherently different from other nations.[2] Proponents of it argue that the values, political system, and historical development of the U.S. are unique in human history, often with the implication that it is both destined and entitled to play a distinct and positive role on the world stage.[3]

Political scientist Seymour Martin Lipset traces the origins of American exceptionalism to the American Revolution, from which the U.S. emerged as "the first new nation" with a distinct ideology.[4] This ideology, which Lipset called Americanism, but is often also referred to as American exceptionalism, is based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, republicanism, democracy and laissez-faire economics; these principles are sometimes collectively referred to as "American exceptionalism",[5] and entail the U.S. being perceived both domestically and internationally as superior to other nations or having a unique mission to transform the world.[6]

The basis is Americanism:

QuoteAmericanism, also referred to as American patriotism, is a set of patriotic values which aim to create a collective American identity for the United States that can be defined as "an articulation of the nation's rightful place in the world, a set of traditions, a political language, and a cultural style imbued with political meaning".[1] According to the American Legion, a U.S. veterans' organization, Americanism is an ideology, or a belief in devotion, loyalty, or allegiance to the United States of America, or respect for its flag, its traditions, its customs, its culture, its symbols, its institutions, or its form of government.[2] In the words of Theodore Roosevelt, "Americanism is a question of spirit, conviction, and purpose, not of creed or birthplace."[3]

Americanism has two different meanings: the defining characteristics of the United States, or loyalty to the United States and defense of American political ideals. These ideals include but are not limited to independence, equality before the law, freedom of speech, Capitalism, and progress.[1][4]


QuoteProfessor of political science at Clemson University C. Bradley Thompson stated that,

QuoteThe meaning of Americanism today, however, is very different. To the extent that the term is even still used, its meaning has been hijacked by both the Left and the Right. The Left most often identifies Americanism with multiculturalism, relativism, environmentalism, regulation, and welfarism — in other words, with progressivism. The Right typically identifies Americanism with Christianity, school prayer, tradition, family values, and community standards — in other words, with social conservatism. None of these values are, however, uniquely American. In fact, in one form or another, they all have a distinctly European provenance that is set in direct opposition to the native meaning of Americanism.[5]


Quote from: indianasmith on December 04, 2022, 06:45:57 PM
I just get sick to death of the moral equivalency games.  The Soviet Union murdered some 40 million of its own citizens during the 75 years of its benighted existence.
Communist China murdered 40 million of its own during Mao's tenure, and probably another 10 - 20 million since then.
Each nation completely suppressed free speech, freedom of the press, and persecuted anyone who dared make a public profession of ANY religious faith.
But CLEARLY the United States is the greatest force for wickedness in the last century, according to Ralfy's endless sermonizing.
I'm frankly sick of it.

Here's the problem: they're expected to do that because they're barbarians, right?

What's the excuse of "the greatest force [against] wickedness in the last century"?


Quote from: Morpheus, the unwoke. on December 04, 2022, 07:33:11 PM
This makes the second time Russia has invaded a country only to be dealt grevious blows by American arms sent in to support la' resistance.

The troubling thing I see is that pooty might learn from his carnival of errors abd get Russia's shi... er, act together and launch a new offensive . Even poots must have realized bubblibg himself in with sychophantic yes men who were robbing the military blind and toothless was a colossal Charlie foxtrot, he might try looking at the real situation and changing tactics.

Didn't I explain this in multiple posts? That's the same U.S. that was manipulating Ukraine in 2004 and 2014! That's also the same U.S. which began NATO expansion during the late 1990s for no logical reason. It reached a point where the main proponent of that as part of containment, Kennan, began to criticize his own government, arguing that such aggression would lead to a violent reaction from Russia, and that's exactly what happened.

The U.S. expected overwhelming support for it through sanctions on a global scale, and that didn't happen. Its own allies, ranging from Israel to Saudi Arabia, remained neutral.

Rev. Powell

I feel safe in saying no one here wants to commit U.S. troops to Ukraine.

If someone argues that Ukraine is not our business and we should not send them one cent in aid, I disagree, but acknowledge that's a rational position.

The only position I strongly object to is the idea that Russia is strategically and morally justified in its invasion, and it's primarily the fault of the West/US/NATO that Putin ordered Russian troops (who are victims too, it's important to remember) to cross the border and start killing foreign nationals. If no one here has that position, I have no strong disagreement.
I'll take you places the hand of man has not yet set foot...


You know what's bizarrely endearing about you, ralfy, albeit weirder than vanilla spaghetti? No matter what's said to you you don't get mad, you just go forth like Commander Data with your citations in reply. I bet I could call you mother horrid names comparing her mating practices to a rabbit and you'd calmly reply with posted links redeeming her virtue. You're an odd duck, but kinda likable in a cod liver oil way.
What does not kill me makes me stranger.


Quote from: ER on December 04, 2022, 07:34:28 PM
Really it is so much the norm across the world for people to live in fear of their governments that democracies that enshrine human rights truly are exceptional. And Indy is exactly right in his post. No nation is perfect, but Americans have much to be proud of, and I can think of nothing shameful in US history that most or all other nations were not also guilty of. At least we've tried to right our (and other's) wrongs and tried to balance the scale. The United States is a great and good nation. As Craig Ferguson put it in the day he became a US citizen: "America is the best place anyone's come up with yet." And any American who disagrees should take a moment to reflect you are ALLOWED to disagree. And that feeling you get when you realize this? Maybe it's a realization of the exceptionalism of democracy I mentioned at the beginning.

U.S. debts have now reached over $30 trillion, and that does not include corporate debts and over $170 trillion in unfunded liabilities. Almost half of the budget was being used by the military and intelligence agencies, most of which failed audits for a fifth time (the Pentagon can't account for at least $3 trillion gone). Years before that, the same government gave amost $30 trillion in bailouts to Wall Street bankers who were responsible for the 2008 global financial crash, and are now richer than ever. Not only do they control most of the U.S. economy, but even much of the bailouts were likely not audited, too:

It's essentially a country that's been on a heavy borrowing and spending binge since the early 1980s, and it can't stop because that's the only thing that's keeping its economy afloat:

And the only reason why it's been acting aggressively against many countries is because it needs the global economy to keep using the dollar. Otherwise, the binge ends.