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Author Topic: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!  (Read 79860 times)
Morpheus, the unwoke.
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I am a Bill Maher Democrat. Deal with it.


« Reply #780 on: December 11, 2022, 05:41:55 PM »

Ralfy, seriously, 5 long posts in a row.
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They will come back, come back again, As long as the red earth rolls. He never wasted a leaf or a tree. Do you think he would squander souls?” ― Ruyard Kipling

We all come from the goddess and to her we shall return, like a drop of rain flowing to the ocean.
ralfy
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« Reply #781 on: December 12, 2022, 12:12:14 AM »

ralfy- the point is your anaylsis is based on governments running their country's economy and they don't. you are essentially projecting socialism's failures onto capitalism.

The government didn't train Lebron James to be a great basketball player. South Korea's government didn't invent K Pop or Korean Bbq.


You are putting the cart before the horse.

Chinese people pulled themselves out of poverty only after the government stopped impeding them.

IN a healthy country the people don't need their government for much at all. it has a natural role in areas where it is convenient like defense but even that is debatable

I don't think governments run their countries. Rather, the ones funding governments do.

In this case, the government and corporations want to look good before Blackrock and others, and that means going woke.

Some additional points:

The Chinese did not pull themselves out of poverty because they stopped the government from impeding them. Rather, 800 million of them were lifted out of poverty because the CCP came up with two economic reforms which worked: mid-term economic planning and attracting FDIs but with the CCP being a major partner.

What works is dependent on present circumstances. For example, what China did was actually started by Japan, followed by Taiwan and South Korea, and then the rest of Asian countries: managed protectionism coupled with import substitution, nationalization of key industries that have no competition, export orientation for those sectors that have the potential for growth, and coordination through economic planning. Look up the "East Asian Miracle." It was only later that they started opening up to less intervention and more trade, and even then did so in a calibrated manner.

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ralfy
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« Reply #782 on: December 12, 2022, 12:12:59 AM »

Ralfy, seriously, 5 long posts in a row.

And all helpful, I trust. But if there's anything questionable, let me know.
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ralfy
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« Reply #783 on: December 12, 2022, 12:14:18 AM »

"Weapons Makers Profit Handsomely off Ukraine War, Three Months After Russian Invasion"

https://www.corpwatch.org/article/weapons-makers-profit-handsomely-ukraine-war-three-months-after-russian-invasion

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These companies are openly backed by the U.S. government. The Pentagon issued a press release on April 13 about a meeting that Kathleen Hicks, the deputy secretary of defense, convened with leaders of eight weapons makers, namely BAE Systems, Boeing, General Dynamics, Huntington Ingalls, L3Harris, Raytheon Technologies, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

...

Weapons companies were already receiving a massive amount of money from the U.S. government – some $768 billion in 2021 – before the war in Ukraine began. In the last week, the U.S. Congress approved a $40 billion spending package for the Ukraine war with a big chunk going to arms companies.

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ralfy
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« Reply #784 on: December 12, 2022, 12:17:53 AM »

Here's an interesting article, connecting Kennan to Soviet containment to Iraq to Ukraine to China:

"How China’s ‘wins’ in the Ukraine war can go beyond the economy"

https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3173749/how-chinas-wins-ukraine-war-can-go-beyond-economy

The implication is that the peacemaker in this issue is China, and it will succeed only if the U.S. works with it.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #785 on: December 12, 2022, 12:18:07 AM »

Quote
Rather, 800 million of them were lifted out of poverty because the CCP came up with two economic reforms which worked: mid-term economic planning and attracting FDIs but with the CCP being a major partner.


who put them IN poverty in the first place? the CCP. When they were no longer prevented from doing so, they began to  exercise their innate human instinct for survival via entreprenours creating goods, salesmen selling them, customers buying them etc.


Quote
What works is dependent on present circumstances. For example, what China did was actually started by Japan,

it started in Hong Kong and it was not calibrated. regulations mostly benefit corporations seeking to defend themselves against smaller more nimble rivals
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ralfy
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« Reply #786 on: December 12, 2022, 12:20:28 AM »

Here's something that's barely discussed, and reported by Eva Bartlett:

"Maligned in Western Media, Donbass Forces are Defending their Future from Ukrainian Shelling and Fascism"

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/11/19/maligned-in-western-media-donbass-forces-are-defending-their-future-from-ukrainian-shelling-and-fascism/

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America is widely understood to be a key instigator behind conflict in Ukraine that has pitted brother against brother

Smeared, stigmatized, and lied about in Western media propaganda, the mostly Russian-speaking people of the Donbass region were being slaughtered by the thousands in a brutal war of “ethnic cleansing” launched against them by the neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv, which the U.S. installed after the CIA overthrew Ukraine’s legally elected president in a 2014 coup.

One can argue that this is merely "vatnik" propaganda, but the same can be said about U.S. mainstream media mostly controlled by the rich.
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ralfy
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« Reply #787 on: December 12, 2022, 12:23:46 AM »

Quote
Rather, 800 million of them were lifted out of poverty because the CCP came up with two economic reforms which worked: mid-term economic planning and attracting FDIs but with the CCP being a major partner.



who put them IN poverty in the first place? the CCP. When they were no longer prevented from doing so, they began to  exercise their innate human instinct for survival via entreprenours creating goods, salesmen selling them, customers buying them etc.


Quote
What works is dependent on present circumstances. For example, what China did was actually started by Japan,


it started in Hong Kong and it was not calibrated. regulations mostly benefit corporations seeking to defend themselves against smaller more nimble rivals


China was poor even when the Nationalists were in control. In fact, that was the main reason why the people turned on them and started backing the Commies. Recall that the latter almost lost while the U.S. was desperately supplying Chiang.

It gets even weirder when on realizes that Mao actually wanted state capitalism and was willing to work even with Truman:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 Small | Large


It didn't start in HK but in Japan. Even until the '70s HK was only making plastic toy balls while Taiwan was making slippers.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #788 on: December 12, 2022, 12:32:56 AM »

No Hong Kong was one of the four "asian tigers" in the 60's alongside taiwan and singapore.

There was nothing to prevent China from being a part of this group other than it's governments obstinate belief in communism. Chinese people were poor for no reason, as their current relative wealth shows. They aren't inferior to taiwanese or South Koreans.  That the government then changed its mind is good, but they certainly don't get credit for doing so so late. They have the culpability for that poverty.

could have been an "Asian tiger" chose to be a donkey.
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ralfy
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« Reply #789 on: December 12, 2022, 01:00:19 AM »

No Hong Kong was one of the four "asian tigers" in the 60's alongside taiwan and singapore.

There was nothing to prevent China from being a part of this group other than it's governments obstinate belief in communism. Chinese people were poor for no reason, as their current relative wealth shows. They aren't inferior to taiwanese or South Koreans.  That the government then changed its mind is good, but they certainly don't get credit for doing so so late. They have the culpability for that poverty.

could have been an "Asian tiger" chose to be a donkey.

The East Asian Miracle started with Japan, then with Taiwan and South Korea following. The two are considered part of the "Asian tigers," with HK and Singapore. They are now being followed by the "tiger cubs": Malaysia, Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Vietnam.

China was controlled by the Nationalists after it was being carved up by imperialist powers during the early part of the twentieth century. The Nationalists almost defeated the Communists until a major turnaround, after which the former fled to Taiwan and elsewhere.

Later, it was discovered that Mao was state capitalist and even nationalist, and wanted to work with Truman. The U.S. did not respond, after which China came up with I think four programs which led to around 40 million dead, and then after the Cultural Revolution dropped them in place of the two programs I mentioned, after which 800 million were lifted out of poverty.

That was made possible because China has one of the highest long-term ave. growth rates in the world: around 7 pct per annum. That's a donkey?

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #790 on: December 12, 2022, 01:17:11 AM »

under Mao was china a donkey? notice the uptrend after mao checked out in 76




Quote
China was controlled by the Nationalists after it was being carved up by imperialist powers during the early part of the twentieth century.[/qquote]

has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about: china under Mao

Quote
Later, it was discovered that Mao was state capitalist and even nationalist, and wanted to work with Truman.

so?

Why did China's economy fair so poorly under Mao?


Quote
after which 800 million were lifted out of poverty.

this is impossible. they lifted themselves out of poverty via their own labor. Xi Jinping did not work 24 hours a day in a factory and give all the money he earned to Chinese citizens.


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ralfy
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« Reply #791 on: December 13, 2022, 06:37:07 PM »

under Mao was china a donkey? notice the uptrend after mao checked out in 76




Quote
China was controlled by the Nationalists after it was being carved up by imperialist powers during the early part of the twentieth century.[/qquote]

has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about: china under Mao

Quote
Later, it was discovered that Mao was state capitalist and even nationalist, and wanted to work with Truman.

so?

Why did China's economy fair so poorly under Mao?


Quote
after which 800 million were lifted out of poverty.

this is impossible. they lifted themselves out of poverty via their own labor. Xi Jinping did not work 24 hours a day in a factory and give all the money he earned to Chinese citizens.




Now, I see what happened! You mistakenly thought I was referring to Mao's regime. I've been talking about Deng onward. To recap,

The belief that China was doing fine before Communism is wrong. It was doing badly, which is why the Nationalists were kicked out.

The claim that the Mao is Communist in the sense of being anti-industrialist and anti-U.S. is also questionable. He wrote to Truman, wanting to work with the U.S., but the latter did not respond.

After that, Mao came up with four programs leading to 40 million dead. By the tail's end of that, the U.S. engaged in rapprochement.

The CCP then came up with two programs--opening up to foreign investors but the CCP being a partner and maintaining control--and that led to a drastic reduction in poverty rate and an ave. GDP growth of 7 pct, one of the highest in the region.

The two programs are similar to those found in the East Asian Miracle, which started not with HK but with Japan. HK became part of the Asian Tigers which followed, and after that the Tiger Cubs.

China, and Vietnam, are not considered part of these groups because they have Communist regimes, but the economic policies and results are the same.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 06:47:15 PM by ralfy » Logged
ralfy
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« Reply #792 on: December 13, 2022, 06:40:23 PM »

John Pilger: "The US takes yet another provocative step towards war with Russia, in which Ukraine is an expendable pawn. Remember Iraq, Libya and its many expendables."

https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1585568751273082880

Jan Vanzeebroeck: "Australian member of the Ukrainian International Legion spoke during summer about how the Ukrainian commanders would send the foreign fighters to the most dangerous places, even suicide missions, using them as poster boys for war propaganda." (thread)

https://twitter.com/yanvonzeebroeck/status/1596578810031476737

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ralfy
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« Reply #793 on: December 13, 2022, 06:46:39 PM »

"Is China Really a Threat?"

https://www.crisismagazine.com/opinion/is-china-really-a-threat

Quote
Whether it’s Hilary Clinton or Mitt Romney, Joe Biden or Lindsey Graham, the DC establishment gives unquestioning support to a bellicose “unipolar” foreign policy in which the United States controls the world by military and economic might.

Any disagreement with this outlook is quickly labeled treasonous (see Rand Paul or Tulsi Gabbard); apparently, straying from the neocon narrative means you support America’s enemies. This has been the case since at least the end of the Cold War 30 years ago, and we’ve seen it most recently with the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Notice that even writers who dare to make such points have to stress readily that they consider the CCP or Putin as "evil, period," and then explain that the U.S. is belligerent because the two countries pose a threat to "America’s global economic hegemony".

In short, the "good vs. evil" storyline is still maintained, but that both China and Russia have to reform to mend their "evil" ways while the U.S. has to be more humble.

It's a quaint view as long as one doesn't try to figure out how that "global economic hegemony" took place.

And in no way should one try to connect that to the current invasion of Ukraine, as that would only muddle the issue.



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ralfy
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« Reply #794 on: December 13, 2022, 06:57:06 PM »

"Star CIA Analysts Are Out of Touch With Reality When it Comes to Russia"

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/11/26/star-cia-analysts-are-out-of-touch-with-reality-when-it-comes-to-russia/

Quote
[From Douglas London:] 'Russian mystique is gone. Mr. Putin has proved his country is the declining power that the best-informed Russia watchers claimed it was. Fewer pundits will wax poetic over Mr. Putin’s cunning and strategic brilliance. He might have been a capable operations officer during his KGB career, but he clearly missed the classes on self-awareness and counterintelligence. The more he tightens the security screws and covers Russia’s window to the world, the more likely those he depends on will turn against him.'

Got that? Russia, whose economy is clicking along nicely in contrast to the implosion underway in Europe, is a declining power in Mr. London’s fanciful world. Since the start of the Special Military Operation last February, Putin has frustrated Western attempts to paint him as Hitler reincarnated and has forged closer ties with China, India, Saudi Arabia and Brazil. Oh, did I mention he enjoys popular support among the Russian people[?]

What's going on? I'm guessing that instead of operating as an intelligence agency that gathers information so that policymakers can make the right decisions, the CIA has been used as an Office of Propaganda and Dirty Tricks, offering analysis, digging up anything, and funding various groups, from NGOs to media outlets, in order to support neocon policies, which include NATO expansion.

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