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Other Topics => Off Topic Discussion => Topic started by: indianasmith on February 23, 2022, 11:16:30 PM



Title: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 23, 2022, 11:16:30 PM
Putin appears to be launching a full-on military invasion of Ukraine.
I had truly hoped he was bluffing!   This could really be the beginning of World War 3 . . .

And our former President is praising Putin for it!
If anyone ever doubted what a despicable traitor Donald Trump is, here's the proof - our ally is under attack, and he's praising the dictator launching the attack!
Just . . . awful.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on February 23, 2022, 11:43:36 PM
Awful.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 23, 2022, 11:54:39 PM
what did trump say?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: JuanSnz on February 24, 2022, 12:31:25 AM
Great. Just great. I'm only hoped that Alberto Fernandez (President of Argentina, my country) for one time in his life don't say anything, don't think anything, because each time he speaks, or he contrary himself, or for worst, said what you really want to hear. Even if those words are antagonist between them.

I mean, the guy could tell to Ukrainians "We, Argentina, supports you, we believe in Freedom, in Justice, in Democracy, in Equality, and we don't want that any country in the World be invaded for anyone, specially for those Great Power Nations that along the History of Humankind were and still they are abusing disadvantaged countries". And, at the same time, he could twit "Vlad, you are doing well".

What a jerk.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 24, 2022, 01:02:16 AM
what did trump say?



For the most part, he said he wanted to French kiss Putin. Or toss his salad.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 24, 2022, 01:05:59 AM
Myself- I could give a rat's ass about the Ukraine- they're almost as bad as Russia.
But yeah- Putin's pushing his luck too far. He may end up biting his own ass.
What Russia is doing is similar to what Germany did with Poland in 1939. Hitler claimed Poland attacked at the border to Germany (they didn't), so he blitzed them.
Yeah, this could go bad.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2022, 02:12:17 AM
I wouldn't worry too much at the moment about the war spreading. The world has known this was going to happen for months (if not longer). If any of our countries were going to get involved, we'd already have troops on the ground over there. We'll give material support, put sanctions in place that won't change much. Of more consequence for us directly will be the effect on food prices as well as natural gas. I'd imagine there are a lot of people in Europe who will be facing a very expensive or cold winter.

Unless Russia starts doing something the rest of the world can't ignore then I think Putin will get away with this one sadly.

My sympathies lie with the Ukrainian people. I hope they are able to defend their country successfully.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: bob on February 24, 2022, 08:14:52 AM
Trump continues to be a national embarrassment and water is wet


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 24, 2022, 09:11:59 AM
I have friends in Ukraine.  :bluesad:

I don't have much context for this picture she posted. Caption says it's Kiev.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274698453_5054404891295594_8814952404148346504_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=Ymp6hYt-YsQAX9DZn4A&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT8TqNS54VLPBwIBTbGsAhRNkFrhUZU5tvsBZW_PRYYPDg&oe=621CC428)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2022, 12:32:51 PM
I have friends in Ukraine.  :bluesad:

I don't have much context for this picture she posted. Caption says it's Kiev.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274698453_5054404891295594_8814952404148346504_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=Ymp6hYt-YsQAX9DZn4A&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT8TqNS54VLPBwIBTbGsAhRNkFrhUZU5tvsBZW_PRYYPDg&oe=621CC428)

I hope your friend is able to stay safe.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 24, 2022, 02:07:32 PM
Yeh-missiles are flying now on 3 fronts.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 02:22:06 PM
We knew something like this was gonna happen if they kept expanding NATO.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2022, 03:35:40 PM
Don't forget Putin has been pulling the same s**t with Georgia* which is nowhere near NATO territory. He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR. This was going to happen regardless.

* Not to forget Moldavia and Chechnya as well.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on February 24, 2022, 03:45:21 PM
Don't forget Putin has been pulling the same s**t with Georgia which is nowhere near NATO territory. He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR. This was going to happen regardless.

Agreed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 03:57:27 PM
Quote
He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR.

that is neither here nor there. the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border. both sides have addressed this issue numerous times in the days and weeks preceding this



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2022, 04:02:34 PM
Oh it is very much here or there. NATO is just a convenient excuse and if he didn't have that, he'd have found another one, just like he did for the countries he has invaded that were nowhere near NATO expansion.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 04:04:52 PM
and why was it a "convenient excuse"? why was it convenient and good to use as an excuse? because it was real and happening and tangible, unlike the idea that he was going to somehow bring back the Soviet Union


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 24, 2022, 04:12:39 PM
[ the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border.


Ukraine has been begging to join NATO for years, for obvious reasons. Ukraine wanted to join NATO so Russia would not invade, Russia wanted to invade Ukraine so it would not join NATO. Chicken and the egg.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2022, 04:29:33 PM
Ok, let's put this in simple terms.

Putin wants all the old territory the Soviet Union controlled. In order to sell this to the Russian people he has been using NATO as a bogeyman and claiming its expansion is in order to threaten the Russian Federation (ignoring that most NATO members have seriously slashed their defence budgets since the end of the Cold War and would lack the manpower and equipment required to seriously take part in a war against it). If he didn't have this he'd have to come up with something different. Usual ways of achieving this include false flag terrorist operations, but there are other ways. Since he does have the NATO expansion though, he doesn't need to do that. Hence it is a convenient excuse for him. Ukraine has said it would like to join NATO, but NATO has never said it can. The closest has been that it (NATO) has said it (Ukraine) isn't ready to join.

He wants to retake all the territory that the Soviet Union controlled. To achieve this he has launched military operations in several of them (as mentioned previously, in countries that are nowhere near NATO countries, have not expressed an interest in joining).

Ever put some thought into why these countries want to join NATO? To get protection from exactly the stuff Putin is doing. He might claim that NATO getting closer to Russia is a threat to them, but there are areas that have been attacked and invaded many times by Russia over the centuries. Maybe if they didn't they would have more friendly countries on their borders.

He is trying to dictate to other nations what their foreign policy should be. I wonder how you'd feel if another country was telling yours what it could and couldn't do.

Let's not forget, NATO was put together in the first place as a defensive alliance (and still is) as a counter to Soviet aggression. Its members come to each other's aid if one is attacked. There is nothing in there about coming together to launch a war. The reason so many eastern European countries joined Hitler's war against the U.S.S.R. is because it had been terrorising its neighbours and stealing territory off them. What is happening now is just a repeat of what they have been doing for a very long time whether it is the Russian Empire, USSR or Russian Federation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: WingedSerpent on February 24, 2022, 06:13:27 PM
I don't know how many people I've told this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion I'd be alive for the apocalypse.  Of all the things I've gotten wrong in my life, why did this happen to be the one it looks like I got right.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 24, 2022, 06:18:37 PM
I don't know how many people I've told this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion I'd be alive for the apocalypse.  Of all the things I've gotten wrong in my life, why did this happen to be the one it looks like I got right.
Agreed


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 24, 2022, 06:19:42 PM
Quote
He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR.

that is neither here nor there. the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border. both sides have addressed this issue numerous times in the days and weeks preceding this

You are mistaken.  It is totally THERE.  NATO is his pretext and the assumption that the "western allies" were hollow.  NATO gets in the way of pootin  rebuilding the "evil empire".  


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 06:25:33 PM
Yeah I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 24, 2022, 06:37:45 PM
Why it happened does not seem to be the most important issue at the moment.
They have foot soldiers on the ground; bombs are dropping.
I'm worried where this will lead. A lot of countries are p**sed. When will Putin commit some massacre that draws NATO into a foot war? I am not optimistic.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 24, 2022, 07:52:51 PM
Ya gotta understand, Lester will never acknowledge America is right when it comes to foreign policy.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 24, 2022, 07:56:10 PM
Ironically, if Putin successfully annexes Ukraine he will have a massive border with NATO.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 24, 2022, 10:24:12 PM
POOtin is working off of a 20th century playbook.  It's a disaster that can only worsen.  God help the people on the ground. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 24, 2022, 10:42:02 PM
Yeah I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Yeh, that POOtin is a "peacemaker".  Piece of sh!t maker. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 10:50:45 PM
I would suggest people read Putins speech if you get the chance

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24)

It's mostly about Russia's relationship with NATO. He lays it all out there

Quote
President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Citizens of Russia, friends,

I consider it necessary today to speak again about the tragic events in Donbass and the key aspects of ensuring the security of Russia.

I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.

It is a fact that over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border.

.... [later]

Despite all that, in December 2021, we made yet another attempt to reach agreement with the United States and its allies on the principles of European security and NATO’s non-expansion. Our efforts were in vain. The United States has not changed its position. It does not believe it necessary to agree with Russia on a matter that is critical for us. The United States is pursuing its own objectives,

indianasmith - I liked when both Biden and Trump killed ISIS leaders.



that said let me add one thing: the whole talking point of "this didn't happen under Trump" is stupid. If Trump were president he would have launched a missile at Moscow and we'd be in a world of hurt. That guy was ignorant about how the world works and also nuts.






Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 24, 2022, 10:54:05 PM
Well, we agree on Trump, too, then! LOL

I saw some moron on FB had a Bat-signal modified with Trump's profile shining in the sky, with the caption: "The Whole World Right Now!"

And I thought, how clueless can these people get? Trump was the MOST unpopular American leader abroad in decades.  He was a laughing stock, but they seem to think he's Jesus, Batman, and John Wayne all rolled into one.

It's a freaking cult.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 24, 2022, 11:15:21 PM
Well, China made all sorts of moves in Hong kong (RIP) while he was POTUS. He bombed General Soleimani and Iran responded by... not changing anything about their strategy re Iraq and also ramping up their nuclear efforts.

China Russia and Iran are ancient countries who have stuck around for a reason. Trump and Biden are blips on their radar.


best case scenario now would be if Russia agreed to pull back in return of a guarentee that Ukraine not be admitted into NATO. Can Biden and his shifty sec state Blinken pull that off? I doubt it but not impossible


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 24, 2022, 11:18:32 PM
Trump didn't have the United states dependent on Russian oil.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 24, 2022, 11:22:27 PM
Think Biden'll Wag The Dog for Burisma?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on February 24, 2022, 11:44:19 PM
Well, China made all sorts of moves in Hong kong (RIP) while he was POTUS. He bombed General Suleiman and Iran responded by... not changing anything about their strategy re Iraq and also ramping up their nuclear efforts.

China Russia and Iran are ancient countries who have stuck around for a reason. Trump and Biden are blips on their radar.


best case scenario now would be if Russia agreed to pull back in return of a guarentee that Ukraine not be admitted into NATO. Can Biden and his shifty sec state Blinken pull that off? I doubt it but not impossible

Unfortunately Iran did a lot in response to the killing of Soleimani. Much more than made the 6:30 news.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 25, 2022, 12:01:44 AM
Borrowed from another site.

Make no mistake- The US imposing financial sanctions on Russia while at the same time continuing to purchasing millions in oil from Russia makes the sanctions nothing more than a publicity stunt and that action by the US is dumber than anything Russia is currently doing.  The US is funding the murder of Ukrainians tonight.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 25, 2022, 12:51:15 AM
 ^Yeah, I've seen some of the webpages you site. Hoo boy, break out the tin foil.  :lookingup:

Russia is bombing the Ukraine. People are dying.

Yet here you talk mumbo jumbo s**t about the US. What a patriot!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 25, 2022, 01:16:54 AM
Trump didn't have the United states dependent on Russian oil.

The US is not dependent on Russian oil whatsoever. 7% was imported from Russia. 30% from Canada. Most of our oil comes from right here.

And you got balls to even mention Trump's name in connection with Russia, with his recent appalling comments.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 25, 2022, 01:31:15 AM
Whats also sad about this mess is many Russian citizens want nothing to do with the war. Protesters are hitting the streets in Moscow, St.Petersburg, and other cities.  :bluesad:

I'd like to see Putin riding shirtless leading the charge!
f**king war pig.  :hatred:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on February 25, 2022, 08:07:46 AM
POOtin is working off of a 20th century playbook.  It's a disaster that can only worsen.  God help the people on the ground. 

This.  Anyone else having Cold War flashbacks?  It is very odd to me that this seems to be such a blind spot for so many.

Putin wants his Empire back and he regards NATO as an empire in competition with him.

I don't think there is any question about his sanity.  He's NQR in his psyche.  That is the scariest part.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 25, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
POOtin is working off of a 20th century playbook.  It's a disaster that can only worsen.  God help the people on the ground. 

This.  Anyone else having Cold War flashbacks?  It is very odd to me that this seems to be such a blind spot for so many.

Putin wants his Empire back and he regards NATO as an empire in competition with him.

I don't think there is any question about his sanity.  He's NQR in his psyche.  That is the scariest part.

Unfortunately, he is a cold war relic and is stuck with that mindset. Ex-KGB who worked with the Stasi (by all accounts a wonderfully lovely bunch of people) in East Germany. I'd mentioned to Kristi last night that I thought this crap was all over with back in '92.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 25, 2022, 09:00:14 AM
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274536042_4814272691982266_1761028264762167471_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Gi_q3Cog3pIAX_2YFKi&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_2m9T-kWxRrGk76RU0Wv4SRA0nII5tEYlrmXJmhKtsCw&oe=621DA405)

A picture from my friend's facebook feed. I don't know the context as the translated caption doesn't make sense to me: "Kiev. Kirílívsʹka (former Frunze) under the bridge exit on Olena Telíg. The enemy of the drg broke through in the center, but got tickets for the cabzon concert. Glory to Ukraine!!!"

I fear one day soon she will not post and I won't know whether she's still alive or just without Internet.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on February 25, 2022, 09:09:35 AM
Borrowed from another site.

Make no mistake- The US imposing financial sanctions on Russia while at the same time continuing to purchasing millions in oil from Russia makes the sanctions nothing more than a publicity stunt and that action by the US is dumber than anything Russia is currently doing.  The US is funding the murder of Ukrainians tonight.

Insane as this sounds, it's true, Russian oil is still flowing, and it is funding Putin's horror show.

I am encouraged by the number of Russians protesting what Putin is doing.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 25, 2022, 12:53:24 PM
Trump didn't have the United states dependent on Russian oil.

The US is not dependent on Russian oil whatsoever. 7% was imported from Russia. 30% from Canada. Most of our oil comes from right here.

And you got balls to even mention Trump's name in connection with Russia, with his recent appalling comments.

Most of our oil came from "here" during the Trump Administration.
Biden shut down domestic production for green stuff that doesn't work, green stuff that is heavily dependent on polymers from oil.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 25, 2022, 02:48:09 PM
Trump certainly bent over backwards for Saudi Arabia, who are worse than Putin and are doing a ukraine invasion to their neighbor Yemen on a daily basis


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 25, 2022, 05:01:15 PM
Trump certainly bent over backwards for Saudi Arabia, who are worse than Putin and are doing a ukraine invasion to their neighbor Yemen on a daily basis
You are right, a long standing stain on America. 

Speaking anecdotally, we Northeast Americans are much more closely involved with Europe as a culture.  I spent 10 years living among Ukrainians and their Orthodox churches in Manville, NJ.  My oldest friend is Ukrainian and her family are getting updates from family still there.  Families in subways seeking shelter from missiles... Any war exposes pigs.  War pigs. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 25, 2022, 10:26:14 PM
Trump didn't have the United states dependent on Russian oil.

The US is not dependent on Russian oil whatsoever. 7% was imported from Russia. 30% from Canada. Most of our oil comes from right here.

And you got balls to even mention Trump's name in connection with Russia, with his recent appalling comments.

Most of our oil came from "here" during the Trump Administration.
Biden shut down domestic production for green stuff that doesn't work, green stuff that is heavily dependent on polymers from oil.
[/quote/]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD - Biden did not "shut down domestic production"!! What a crock.
U.S. production has actually INCREASED in the last year.  What he did was place a moratorium on any new drilling permits on PUBLIC land.
80% of all U.S. oil drilling is on private land, and all the promising locations on public lands got drilling permits YEARS ago.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 25, 2022, 11:01:09 PM
^Isn't a moratorium the same thing?^ ^Besides, he doubled all the fees that US companies pay.^
And he's on record BEGGING OPEC to increase production.

Biden is also on record saying Russia would face minor consequences for a minor incursion..........

From the very beginning, creepy joe has made it clear to the world that he has no backbone, and he's made it clear to the american people that he's never had their best interest in mind


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: JuanSnz on February 25, 2022, 11:31:37 PM
It's sad that literally we could see on a screen how a country is invaded in real time, and the only thing that we could, is acting like a color commentator on a game: saying the obvious.

Here, in Argentina, in the Capital City, C.A.B.A (Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires), El Obelisco is painted with the Ukrainian colors.

The irony, is that the official Government's statement, which didn't come from Alberto Fernandez's lips, but from a spokesman (well, spokeswoman) about the conflict, was so soft, so indifferent, just a 'we feel sorrow for what happens in Ukraine' and there is not a single word about who is the invader, and for what reason is the invasion.

It feels like the statement could be used for past or future invasion, just changing 'Ukraine' for the name of the invaded country and if it is convenient add the name of the invader.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 25, 2022, 11:56:43 PM
I keep hearing small bits of encouragement, such as this Ukraine jet fighter that that the Russians can't keep up with, or how they passed out free guns & the people used them, setting the Russians back a bit...

But it's still sad.
It seems nobody wanted this but Putin.
Even the Russian people didn't want it....

I hope Biden doesn't get us involved, just keep trying more sanctions.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2022, 10:30:46 AM
It seems that the Russian invasion is not going as well as they had planned and the basic day one objectives have not been met. Good for the Ukrainians. I did like their president's alleged reply to an offer to evacuate him (I don't need evacuation, I need anti-tank shells).

Russia has issued a threat to Finland after in response to Russia's illegal invasion of the Ukraine, their Prime Minister has suggested they will apply for full NATO membership before the next election and some reports suggest Russia is massing troops on Poland's border. One UK minister has already said that if one Russian soldiers boot sets foot on NATO soil then it is war.

For the moment I suspect everyone will stick to sanctions which are a good way of pretending you are doing something, while not really doing anything. China has already lowered its trade restrictions with Russia to counter the already quite weak western sanctions. Maybe if Russia is prevented from accessing SWIFT, it might do something to hurt them, but it still won't change their course.

I wonder at what point people will really stand up against a tyrant?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 26, 2022, 11:02:13 AM
Russian warship, go f**k yourself.

https://youtu.be/6Y2iVHUMZhg

And hey, my friend's still alive as of 6 minutes ago!

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274300256_3766048820200687_3681968855288612100_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ZhQHWHbv4S8AX-Y6fAZ&_nc_oc=AQm0KiU-EuoWk6kZWCaXta0zmEX987-kkaKFXCDrYeVBDbti1NM5ui-l1Jjk6W7xvmc&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_N2RCnwXHD0BKF1v90YV49tUKbaFerlnBb68tTdGnUCg&oe=621ECA92)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: JuanSnz on February 26, 2022, 11:07:14 AM
Well, Russian people have a lot of reasons to kick him, especially the Women Rights movements, and the LGBT+ communities, but mostly of the opposition's leaders, are in jail.

Finland is the other country that has a past with Russia. There is a infamous moment when Molotov said, during the Winter War, that the Soviets are not bombing Finland, they are just dropping food for the people  :lookingup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on February 26, 2022, 12:02:14 PM
For the moment I suspect everyone will stick to sanctions which are a good way of pretending you are doing something, while not really doing anything.

I wish I could shake the feeling that Ukraine is being sacrificed on some sort of political altar.  Putin simply does not play by the same rules as the rest of the world seems to expect.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 26, 2022, 12:10:25 PM
For the moment I suspect everyone will stick to sanctions which are a good way of pretending you are doing something, while not really doing anything.

I wish I could shake the feeling that Ukraine is being sacrificed on some sort of political altar.  Putin simply does not play by the same rules as the rest of the world seems to expect.

So far he is just pulling the same kind of crap guys like Hitler and Stalin did. He will continue until someone stands up to him. Let's just hope they do it before it is too late. You'd think people would learn from history but apparently not.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 26, 2022, 03:15:16 PM
^ History? Who reads anymore if it's not in a tweet?  :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 26, 2022, 04:36:33 PM
For the moment I suspect everyone will stick to sanctions which are a good way of pretending you are doing something, while not really doing anything.

I wish I could shake the feeling that Ukraine is being sacrificed on some sort of political altar.  Putin simply does not play by the same rules as the rest of the world seems to expect.

So far he is just pulling the same kind of crap guys like Hitler and Stalin did. He will continue until someone stands up to him. Let's just hope they do it before it is too late. You'd think people would learn from history but apparently not.

The problem with putting boots on the ground is it's a short slide from there to nuclear war. That would be game over for all of us!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 26, 2022, 04:42:31 PM
What is another word for bed-pan? 

Poo-tin.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 26, 2022, 04:49:33 PM
Trump was giving The Ukraine weapons, now ALL of their neighbors are supplying weapons....

That's what we should be doing, like when Reagan gave weapons to Afghanistan when The Soviets invaded...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 26, 2022, 05:01:32 PM
^ well, considering recent history, we might have been better off with a communist Afghanistan being paid for and administered by Russia


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare)  


Quote
"For Ukraine’s Refugees, Europe Opens Doors That Were Shut to Others

Thousands of Ukrainians will end up in countries led by nationalist governments that have been reluctant to welcome refugees in the past."

lets demonize people taking in refugees. nice angle!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 26, 2022, 05:23:41 PM
^ well, considering recent history, we might have been better off with a communist Afghanistan being paid for and administered by Russia


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare) 


Quote
"For Ukraine’s Refugees, Europe Opens Doors That Were Shut to Others

Thousands of Ukrainians will end up in countries led by nationalist governments that have been reluctant to welcome refugees in the past."

lets demonize people taking in refugees. nice angle!

I can't read this article.
It says I need a subscription.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 26, 2022, 05:53:04 PM
^ It's a free sub.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 26, 2022, 06:16:44 PM
^ It's a free sub.

The link at the top of the page says it's $1 a week....
If the online ads aren't making them enough, it's certainly not worth jumping through the hoops of getting a paid sub, no matter how cheap.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 27, 2022, 12:12:09 AM
Why could I read it?



I had a passenger from Bosnia tonight. Older gay guy. He hated Putin but said he was going to win.

Basically, Russia has two loyal areas in Ukraine. Putin is going to destabilize Ukraine then go back to those areas and wait. He can then threaten to lob missiles at them until they agree to not join NATO.

It's an ugly situation but no one is going to risk ww3 over Ukraine, which itself is barely a democracy.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 27, 2022, 09:54:29 AM
Nata's still alive today.

These aren't her pictures. I gather they're from the approach to Kyiv.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274824141_4623501837749554_3574083942763326042_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=AFSsEGrJ7zQAX89cMlz&tn=eoYOeHuy1nZBQ0xA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9sh6-ctvVIPlGzi5dlIBtN9JFNdKzkdF4JGY3mejXTSQ&oe=6220361E)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 27, 2022, 02:09:31 PM
Vlad, the feral ferret eyed dictator of Russia, has put a nuclear threat in the mix.
Hey, he's surrounded by NATO. Who have many more nukes then him. It would be suicide. But with nut jobs like this guy, you never know. Hitler, Stalin, Mao- they didn't care who died. It could happen.  :bluesad:
I don't think it will, though. The whole world (except China and Donald Trump) is against him.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 27, 2022, 02:56:58 PM


It's an ugly situation but no one is going to risk ww3 over Ukraine

 WWI and WWII  happened over many the same reasons.
Chamberlin said after meeting with Hitler- "it's peace in our time." Then Hitler blitzed Poland. I don't underestimate scumbags like this.
It's odd that dictators in Africa can get away with this s**t every day-but when it involves white nations- then we give a f**k. I hate every politician in this world.  :hatred:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 27, 2022, 03:26:17 PM
I don't think WW2 is a good analogy here. It's essentially the last dust up of the cold war, as a now relatively powerless Russia asserts itself as best it can against total domination by the victorious West.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 27, 2022, 08:50:55 PM
Vlad, the feral ferret eyed dictator of Russia, has put a nuclear threat in the mix.
Hey, he's surrounded by NATO. Who have many more nukes then him. It would be suicide. But with nut jobs like this guy, you never know. Hitler, Stalin, Mao- they didn't care who died. It could happen.  :bluesad:
I don't think it will, though. The whole world (except China and Donald Trump) is against him.
What's another word for bed-pan? 
Poo-tin.   :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 27, 2022, 08:53:55 PM
I don't think WW2 is a good analogy here. It's essentially the last dust up of the cold war, as a now relatively powerless Russia asserts itself as best it can against total domination by the victorious West.

Except this war is not 'cold'.
It's hotter than hell in the Ukraine right now.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on February 27, 2022, 09:11:51 PM
^what I keep thinking about, was just how cautious both bushes were with deploying ground troops following long, drawn out air strikes....^

It's looking like he thought this was going to be a cake walk, but it wasn't....
I keep getting conflicting stories about how well/poorly the Russian advance is going, with right wing nooz outlets reporting Ukrainian successes on the battlefield, while left wing nooz keeps reporting how close the Russians are to Kyiv.....

I don't think Putin was expecting the backlash back home either, & it's stating to sound like he's threatening a BIG temper tantrum.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 27, 2022, 10:28:12 PM
Putin has always been very calculating and deliberate, and this sudden, rash action with such potential for disaster makes me wonder if there's something wrong with him.  Like maybe he's found out he has cancer and has decided to stake it all on one roll of the dice?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 27, 2022, 10:50:29 PM
 ^ Indy- monsters like Putin don't need a reason to be evil.
If he thinks he's f**ked, he'll go full Götterdämmerung.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on February 27, 2022, 11:27:52 PM
My hope is there will be a peace deal and also that I will buy the ruble at the lows beforehand


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on February 27, 2022, 11:41:12 PM
My hope is there will be a peace deal and also that I will buy the ruble at the lows beforehand

You can hope in one hand and sh!t in the other.
Usually end up with a handful of sh!t.
I know I'm being a real Debbie Downer, but I got a bad gut feeling on this.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 28, 2022, 02:15:50 AM
Mad Vlad is making noises about using nuclear weapons and has his nuclear strike force on high alert. If he does that, all bets are off.

Peace talks are taking place but I don't have high hopes for them. Russia's assault seems to have faltered so they might not have the grounds to get their demands met. Kristi is sorting out donations of supplies to be sent to Ukraine and I am going to see if I can take a day off work to help deliver them. If a peace deal is signed I suspect it will not be long before a second war and even before then I'd expect Russia to commit more forces to the fight.

EDIT: Sweden has abandoned its long policy of neutrality and is sending 5000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on February 28, 2022, 07:30:52 AM
I saw an article saying that Pornhub has gotten into the sanctions, too - any user from Russia who tries to visit their site is redirected to a YouTube video of the Ukrainian national anthem.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on February 28, 2022, 09:01:36 AM
Nata's still alive and posting. She bought groceries and flowers yesterday. Somehow, life in Kyiv goes on, impossible to imagine how.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 28, 2022, 09:54:19 AM
An article on how Putin's invasion has managed to kick start a whole bunch of things he's been trying to avoid.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/vladimir-putin-has-achieved-the-impossible-by-invading-ukraine/ar-AAUp7Gw?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/vladimir-putin-has-achieved-the-impossible-by-invading-ukraine/ar-AAUp7Gw?ocid=msedgntp)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on February 28, 2022, 09:54:53 AM
I saw an article saying that Pornhub has gotten into the sanctions, too - any user from Russia who tries to visit their site is redirected to a YouTube video of the Ukrainian national anthem.

Ha! I always suspected pornographers were great humanitarians!  :cheers:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: JuanSnz on February 28, 2022, 10:24:56 AM
I saw an article saying that Pornhub has gotten into the sanctions, too - any user from Russia who tries to visit their site is redirected to a YouTube video of the Ukrainian national anthem.

But if Pornhub make sanctions to Russian p0rn sites, mostly of the adult content on Internet could not be watched.

Now, that is a good measure for rising the Russian people against the Ukrainian invasion, because what is 'worst' than an angry Russian guy: an angry Russian guy without p0rn (no offense).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on February 28, 2022, 10:29:13 AM
I saw an article saying that Pornhub has gotten into the sanctions, too - any user from Russia who tries to visit their site is redirected to a YouTube video of the Ukrainian national anthem.

But if Pornhub make sanctions to Russian p0rn sites, mostly of the adult content on Internet could not be watched.

Now, that is a good measure for rising the Russian people against the Ukrainian invasion, because what is 'worst' than an angry Russian guy: an angry Russian guy without p0rn (no offense).

I would imagine many of them will find it somewhat deflating. Imagine if this was the thing to bring down Putin.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on February 28, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
I see that Fifa is banning Russia from the World cup, and Russians takes soccer very seriously,  like Americans to football. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on February 28, 2022, 11:06:54 PM
I can't hear you. 

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/HJtzyzDuIhFr3Bf.yaTvKw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2022-02/417de5d0-98c2-11ec-bf3f-aa47d35384f3)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 01, 2022, 09:08:35 AM
Nata's still alive this morning, and has Internet access (which is more surprising). But I fear the real battle for Kyiv has yet to start.

She posted this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMwPETNWUAA8LbK.jpg)

Optimistic.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 01, 2022, 12:42:36 PM
^Elon Musk has sent a lot of his StarLink terminals to the Ukraine to help keep communications active.^


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 01, 2022, 03:08:12 PM
I watched some of Oliver Stones Ukraine documentary from 2014 last night. It was kind of half of a documentary, just all Anti US pro Russia. it was interesting to hear those perspectives but He was too wrapped up in the big story to, gee I don't know, interview some actual Ukrainians? Disappointing


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: sprite75 on March 02, 2022, 07:30:36 AM
If you're over in the Ukraine and you capture a Russian tank or other military equipment there's no need to declare it (https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/804441.html) on your taxes

Quote
Ukraine's National Agency for the Protection against Corruption (NAPC) has declared that captured Russian tanks and other equipment are not subject to declaration.

"Have you captured a Russian tank or armored personnel carrier and are worried about how to declare it? Keep calm and continue to defend the Motherland! There is no need to declare the captured Russian tanks and other equipment, because the cost of this ... does not exceed 100 living wages (UAH 248,100)," NAPC's press service said.

Also, there is no need in this case to submit reports of significant changes in property status within 10 days.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on March 02, 2022, 07:35:28 AM
Oh thank you for that sprite!

"Have you captured a Russian tank or armored personnel carrier and are worried about how to declare it?"

That delights me.   :bouncegiggle:   "Heroiam slava!"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 02, 2022, 12:43:05 PM
Nata's still posting today.  :thumbup: It's her wedding anniversary. Kyiv is on Putin's backburner now.

Good article, long but worth the read: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340 (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on March 02, 2022, 03:47:11 PM
The world is such a strange place sometimes.  Something I think about sometimes, especially with a guy like Putin.  Putin is pushing 70.  He could have a heart attack and keel over, like Warren G Harding did.  Odds aren't even that astronomical looking at charts of it - 1-2% chance of death in a year.  There's rumors he has a terminal disease already.  What would happen then?  It'd be impossible to say.  Russia doesn't seem well-prepared for it though.  Who knows what the oligarchs would do.  Would this war abruptly end, or are they too committed?

Something is off when one man's life matters so much in the path of history in a world of billions. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 02, 2022, 11:13:52 PM
People like this give me hope.

An old Ukrainian woman gives Russian soldiers sunflower seeds that will grow on their graves.
Sunflowers are Ukraine's national flower.

Then she basically says ' f**k you!'

http://youtu.be/pekBo-ynIhI (http://youtu.be/pekBo-ynIhI)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 02, 2022, 11:58:47 PM
...Something is off when one man's life matters so much in the path of history in a world of billions. 

Now that I dig.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 03, 2022, 10:09:38 AM
Nata is still posting. In fact, today she posted pictures feeding the pigeons. No war images.

A Russian convoy is now reportedly stalled 20 miles outside Kyiv.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 03, 2022, 12:42:13 PM
Since biden won't do it, a couple of US companies quit buying Russian oil...
Gonna hurt us more than it does them, but I guess it sends a statement...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 04, 2022, 09:04:37 AM
Nata's still feeding the pigeons. Even though they're shelling Kyiv.

https://youtu.be/Oke_-kJg8pg


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 04, 2022, 09:05:58 AM
Since biden won't do it, a couple of US companies quit buying Russian oil...
Gonna hurt us more than it does them, but I guess it sends a statement...

I guess you send a statement too, what that is...???  :question:



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on March 04, 2022, 12:39:25 PM
It's become morally inexcusable to fund Putin by purchasing his oil.

If the world quit buying Russian oil, Putin's regime would collapse. Russia is already imploding in slow motion in the realm of history, has been for decades with its low birth rates and internal decay, but without oil to sell, the country would simply descend into third world status. (Which could be even more dangerous.)

It's not a scientific survey, but every Russian I have spoken to in the last fifteen years hated Putin and wanted him gone. I look on this aggression in Ukraine as Putin's fault, not Russian people's, though I'd like to see more open resistance and non-cooperation among Russians inside Russia, and sanctions may nudge that along.

I know they have motivation to be so, but the courage of the Ukrainians who are standing in front of Russian tanks is humbling. War brings out the best and the worst at the same time.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 04, 2022, 04:13:05 PM
I drive for a living. I'm not going to pay 10 a gallon for gas so NATO can expand it's operations in yet another former soviet territory. I feel bad for Ukraine though and in fact Ukraine could be any of us. What if China started supporting secession in Texas or Florida or gave Mexico weapons to take back California?

We are all just pawns in the big chess game of the rich and powerful.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNCUh6LWUAQ2CqV?format=jpg&name=small)





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 05, 2022, 11:38:05 AM
Nata is still feeding the pigeons and begging for donations. I'm afraid the siege of Kyiv will start soon.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274894120_4996890077036355_8118750812625971575_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sDIrGAtnRsoAX8PRM21&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_Wrpv2ItrSMob7Cg-lCUSfosHOhCeJazRTVf4Wfo2l6w&oe=62289E31)


My Russian friend is continuing to post despite Russia saying they've cut off access to Facebook. I guess he's using a VPN. He's not saying anything too inflammatory but I'm suddenly a little afraid for him too when I hear about Putin's crackdown on "fake news."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on March 05, 2022, 01:55:26 PM
Apparently it's illegal in Russia to call this a war, it's a "special operation."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 05, 2022, 02:23:51 PM
Well, it looks like no one should fret too much about Russian gas; it's pretty low. They're convoy is stalled. It ran out of gas!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 05, 2022, 03:20:47 PM
Well, it looks like no one should fret too much about Russian gas; it's pretty low. They're convoy is stalled. It ran out of gas!

It's not because they ran out of gas, it's because the Russians are having a hard time getting the gas to the tanks, as well as food & spare parts due to bottlenecking & Ukrainian attacks.
Making a single 40 mile long convoy was strategically a pretty bad idea.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 05, 2022, 03:26:13 PM
^ If they can't get the gas to the tanks...then they'er out of gas! Which gets me to thinking (uh oh!) did the trucks bring them gas run out of gas?  :question:
Or was there never any gas on the way?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on March 05, 2022, 04:03:11 PM
Well, it looks like no one should fret too much about Russian gas; it's pretty low. They're convoy is stalled. It ran out of gas!

It's not because they ran out of gas, it's because the Russians are having a hard time getting the gas to the tanks, as well as food & spare parts due to bottlenecking & Ukrainian attacks.
Making a single 40 mile long convoy was strategically a pretty bad idea.

From what I've read from some military people, it sounds like Russian tanks were poorly maintained and not run frequently enough but corruption in logging means they can't really even tell easily what has and hasn't been maintained.  They didn't do things like limit sun exposure and monitor tires, check for rust, all kinds of stuff.  So the tires seem ok at a glance, but have gotten weak; this means they can't drive well through Ukrainian mud (which apparently is brutal) without shredding and getting stuck.  So now they have to drive on a limited number of roads and mostly stick together, making them easier targets.  

Russia blew this initial attack in a number of ways; almost every expert overestimated how fit the Russian military was.  While it makes me happy for Ukraine, it makes me worry for the world; I don't like the idea of badly corrupt and inept fools with thousands of nukes.  Failures in the missile detection systems in the USSR days nearly led to nuclear war in the 1980s, I don't want that to happen again when we have less competent and moral people than Stanislav Petrov at the button.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 05, 2022, 06:29:58 PM
Well, it looks like no one should fret too much about Russian gas; it's pretty low. They're convoy is stalled. It ran out of gas!

It's not because they ran out of gas, it's because the Russians are having a hard time getting the gas to the tanks, as well as food & spare parts due to bottlenecking & Ukrainian attacks.
Making a single 40 mile long convoy was strategically a pretty bad idea.

From what I've read from some military people, it sounds like Russian tanks were poorly maintained and not run frequently enough but corruption in logging means they can't really even tell easily what has and hasn't been maintained.  They didn't do things like limit sun exposure and monitor tires, check for rust, all kinds of stuff.  So the tires seem ok at a glance, but have gotten weak; this means they can't drive well through Ukrainian mud (which apparently is brutal) without shredding and getting stuck.  So now they have to drive on a limited number of roads and mostly stick together, making them easier targets.  

Russia blew this initial attack in a number of ways; almost every expert overestimated how fit the Russian military was.  While it makes me happy for Ukraine, it makes me worry for the world; I don't like the idea of badly corrupt and inept fools with thousands of nukes.  Failures in the missile detection systems in the USSR days nearly led to nuclear war in the 1980s, I don't want that to happen again when we have less competent and moral people than Stanislav Petrov at the button.

Honestly, we've known for decades that the Russian military is in a bad way. They use conscripts who are badly trained and brutally treated by their comrades-in-arms as well as their commanders. The deployment of their one aircraft carrier to Syria a couple of years back was a disaster for them. They lost two jets (one was due to the deck catapult failing if I recall correctly and I can't remember why they lost the other one, although I am pretty sure it was another accident). The ship's water filtration system failed and they had to send out a supply ship to give them fresh water (although I think the sailors had to go without showers for the duration). I think I might have even heard that the engine failed on the route home and it had to be towed at least part of the way back. The problem is that people can learn from these mistakes and make sure they don't happen the next time (I believe the Admiral Kuznetsov went in for a major refit to fix these problems for example and an intensive training regime was planned for its sailors). I'd rather see Russia not learn from its mistakes and make them later on. The first Chechen campaign used up all the Russian army's ammunition supplies for the next five years and evidently, they have a terrible system in place for command and control for their fighters.

Still, all this is an improvement on the days when electricity companies shut off supplies to Russian military bases because they couldn't afford to pay their electric bills. Much of their equipment is still Cold War relics (although they do have some quite scary modern kit). I wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat of what happened in the Winter War of 39-40.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 05, 2022, 08:24:12 PM
This is stating to feel like the new OJ Simpson Trial.....
Other stuff going on in the world & in America, but not a peep about it.....

I look at the maps, & it looks like Russia's gained very little ground, yet I turn on the 6:30 nooz from any of the big three netwerks, and they make it sound like putin's plowed halfway across the country, the collapse of the Ukraine could be any hour now....

Did Russia have this hard of a time with Georgia or Crimea?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 06, 2022, 04:18:32 AM
Neither Georgia or Crimea had 8 years to prepare for an invasion and were much smaller operations that didn't expose the weaknesses of the Russian war machine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War if you want more details.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 06, 2022, 10:56:06 AM
Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons.

(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fd6b5a9fc-9c7e-11ec-931c-643306e9125f.jpg?crop=4535%2C2551%2C214%2C476&resize=1200)

My Russian friend's still posting, complaining about sanctions, nothing blatantly anti-war.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 06, 2022, 03:34:33 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNFaTURXIAY4c_M?format=jpg&name=small)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNKskTsXMAMxrQk?format=jpg&name=small)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on March 06, 2022, 05:17:27 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNFaTURXIAY4c_M?format=jpg&name=small)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNKskTsXMAMxrQk?format=jpg&name=small)

The guy in the top picture has really had it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 07, 2022, 09:10:40 AM
Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons, reports coffee's still available. Judging by the pictures she is choosing to post, the streets of Kyiv are almost completely deserted. No context for this one:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274926504_10227216961669494_4120391713932383528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=t9r_gH9Eaa4AX-5CS8j&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9KTvKcr_Q0r0qVXzBRpI_fhaKzSd2Tr64MrRXJwcfLbA&oe=622AF2FD)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 08, 2022, 09:41:58 AM
Nata continues to feed the pigeons. It's become a small act of defiance. For the first time today you could see other people out in the park besides her husband. I have to rely on Facebook translations, but it sounds like she said her elderly father had gotten out of the city and was telling others which bridge was safe to use to exit Kyiv.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 09:55:13 AM
...and now a statement from the ex-POTUS-


"At a speech in New Orleans on Saturday night, Trump mused that we could simply apply Chinese flags to our F-22s and then “bomb the s--t out of Russia,” setting off a conflict between those two countries.

“And then we say, China did it, we didn’t do it, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch,” Trump said,"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/06/trump-muses-about-really-bad-quite-possibly-illegal-idea-bomb-russia-using-chinese-flags/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/06/trump-muses-about-really-bad-quite-possibly-illegal-idea-bomb-russia-using-chinese-flags/)

Super genius!


(https://i.imgur.com/k7vLpMX.gif) (https://lunapic.com)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 10:54:02 AM
  Meanwhile, Putin says he'll open up roads for refugees...into RUSSIA!?
I don't know which comment is more moronic.

(https://i.imgur.com/4KC510M.gif) (https://lunapic.com)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 12:12:12 PM
Yes, Trump has been known for his bad jokes.
Still not as moronic as Biden's SOTU.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 12:20:32 PM
Yes, Trump has been known for his bad jokes.
Still not as moronic as Biden's SOTU.....

Bad joke?
Almost as bad as nuking hurricanes and injecting bleach.
Known for his bad jokes? He's joking about people dying in Ukraine, and he's joking about WWIII?
Funny as cancer.  :hatred:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 12:22:51 PM
When did he say injecting bleach?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 12:25:33 PM
^  I'd say don't act stupid, but I don't think your acting.
Your Trump worship is getting cartoonish.
Just a hint.  :lookingup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 12:28:57 PM
I'm not the one who keeps following this guy, you are.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 12:35:41 PM
I'm not the one who keeps following this guy, you are.

Yeah, I follow what he says. But not for the reasons you do.
He still holds many idiots ears. And that worries me.
You follow him because...well...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 12:44:29 PM
Nope, still not the one following him....

I'm following the morons that are in power, like the one who shut down American oil production & is now talking in circles to explain how he had nothing to do with it....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 12:51:42 PM
Ok, I'm not gonna get into your your loony tune s**t over some washed up wingnut.
Carry on.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 12:52:50 PM
?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 12:54:17 PM
?

Perfect response from someone who doesn't have a clue.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 01:00:03 PM
I was just a little confuse over which "washed up wingnut" you were talking about;;;;
The one that's been OUT of the white house for the past year, or the one that's IN the white house right now????


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 01:06:12 PM
I was just a little confuse over which "washed up wingnut" you were talking about;;;;
The one that's been OUT of the white house for the past year, or the one that's IN the white house right now????

 ^ Your a little "confuse", all right;;;
...OK. I'll go for that.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 01:59:01 PM
So in other words, you forgot what you were talking about....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 08, 2022, 02:27:59 PM
Can we start talking about the other crazy SOB again?

Looks like Russia is really surprisingly bogged down and bungled their logistics badly. Troop morale is likely low, as well. They're not making much progress and they look to be stalled right now. Of course, if it goes on long enough eventually they will simply crush Ukraine with numbers.

Also, America has banned Russian oil and I predict domestic support for Ukraine will plummet once Americans start paying more at the gas pumps. Enjoy this little bit of unity while it lasts.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 02:44:27 PM
Can we start talking about the other crazy SOB again?

Looks like Russia is really surprisingly bogged down and bungled their logistics badly. Troop morale is likely low, as well. They're not making much progress and they look to be stalled right now. Of course, if it goes on long enough eventually they will simply crush Ukraine with numbers.

Also, America has banned Russian oil and I predict domestic support for Ukraine will plummet once Americans start paying more at the gas pumps. Enjoy this little bit of unity while it lasts.



That's what I keep getting from alternate nooz outlets, but the 6:30 nooz on the big three networks keep making it sound like it's the other way around....
I'm beginning to get the feeling that biden is waiting for everyone else to get involved, like Woodrow Wilson did in world war one, with a sycophantic calling for an intervention....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 08, 2022, 04:02:21 PM
gas prices going up.

Are people going to tip their uber drivers more as part of the war effort?

or are drivers supposed to have a glass of water for dinner for the war effort.

I'm not hanging around to find out. gone fishin!



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 04:05:53 PM
gas prices going up.

Are people going to tip their uber drivers more as part of the war effort?

or are drivers supposed to have a glass of water for dinner for the war effort.



According to every stooge in the white house and Stephen Colbert, people who can't afford gas need to cough up $50,000 for an electric car.......


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 08, 2022, 04:10:38 PM
wrong Stephan Colbert was making a joke I just watched that clip.



rev powell -
Quote
Looks like Russia is really surprisingly bogged down and bungled their logistics badly. Troop morale is likely low, as well.

I haven't seen any evidence of either of those things. They're so "bogged down" that they're about to take the capitol after like a week.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 08, 2022, 04:41:49 PM
very humane move on the part of the EU here. 

https://www.newsweek.com/vaccine-delivery-canceled-country-that-did-not-condemn-russia-1685561 (https://www.newsweek.com/vaccine-delivery-canceled-country-that-did-not-condemn-russia-1685561)


Quote
One country's decision to abstain from condemning Russia has now cost it a shipment of COVID-19 vaccines.

On Wednesday, the United Nations (U.N.) General Assembly overwhelmingly voted in favor of condemning Russia for its invasion of Ukraine and demanding immediate withdrawal, with 141 out of the 193 members nations voting in favor of the resolution. Five nations voted against it, including Russia itself, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, and Eritrea. The remaining 35 countries abstained from the vote.


Among the abstaining members was the South Asian country of Bangladesh. As a result of that decision, Lithuania reversed a previous decision from earlier in the week to send over 440,000 doses of COVID-19 vaccines to Bangladesh, according to a report from Lithuanian National Radio and Television (LRT). This was confirmed to LRT by a spokesperson for Lithuanian prime minister Ingrida Šimonytė.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 04:53:38 PM
wrong Stephan Colbert was making a joke I just watched that clip.

I Wasn't wrong about the white house, and why is it supposed to be sick when trump references some plot device for old cartoons, but we're supposed to take it all in good humor when liberals talk about how much they hate a certain class of people?

rev powell -
Quote
Looks like Russia is really surprisingly bogged down and bungled their logistics badly. Troop morale is likely low, as well.

I haven't seen any evidence of either of those things. They're so "bogged down" that they're about to take the capitol after like a week.

Yes, the evening nooz is stressing just how devastating the air strikes & shelling of civilians has been, but if you google "map of russian occupation of ukraine" or some variation thereof, managed to gain very little ground.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 06:33:03 PM
So, when a republican tells a joke, it's not a joke, but when some rich, stuck up "comedian" hates on people, it's supposed to be a joke?

G**D***, your anger & hate have got your sense of humor all screwed up!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 08, 2022, 06:51:26 PM
CAN WE F**KING PLEASE GET BACK TO PUTIN INVADING UKRAINE FOR F**K SAKES?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 08, 2022, 07:11:10 PM
What worrries me is if they make it a "no fly zone".
Also what happens to Ukraine if someone doesn't stop Russia?
I don't think sanctions are going to do enough. Putin doesn't care if the Russian people starve. That pig is rich.
He's in it for the kicks and jollies.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on March 08, 2022, 09:36:16 PM
So, when a republican tells a joke, it's not a joke, but when some rich, stuck up "comedian" hates on people, it's supposed to be a joke?

G**D***, your anger & hate have got your sense of humor all screwed up!

Are you confusing RC and Lester, or think they're the same person?  Lester didn't mention political parties, he didn't mention republicans, he didn't mention jokes by other people, he didn't bring up other comedians or politicians of any kind telling jokes, and he said nothing even remotely hateful or angry.  This reads as a total non-sequitur response as a result.

But back to Ukraine...

Quote
They're so "bogged down" that they're about to take the capitol after like a week.

They likely will eventually if they keep pushing, but they're not about to.  They're basically talking about sending a bunch more troops into a meat grinder and fail, Ukraine has had too much time to prepare and there aren't enough troops yet to overcome.  They don't even have the city surrounded, just two sides last I looked.  It's going to be a long bloody siege looks like, and Russia will pay for every inch in blood.  I guess we'll find out in a couple more days when the current ceasefire ends. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 08, 2022, 11:06:13 PM
I was just a little confuse over which "washed up wingnut" you were talking about;;;;
The one that's been OUT of the white house for the past year, or the one that's IN the white house right now????

 ^ Your a little "confuse", all right;;;
...OK. I'll go for that.  :thumbup:

You two are terrible.  And funny.   :thumbup: :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 08, 2022, 11:40:05 PM
anyone put off by the overt fascism on display in the Ukraine? particularly in the military ranks


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 08, 2022, 11:54:38 PM
anyone put off by the overt fascism on display in the Ukraine? particularly in the military ranks

You mean by the Ukrainian army or the Russian army?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 09, 2022, 12:22:51 AM
I meant the Ukrainian one but that's a good point. Eastern Europe in general has a big nazi community who are also like hobbits


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 09:52:30 AM
Breaking News!
 A Ukrainian woman has downed a drone with a jar of tomatoes as Vladimir Putin's Russian troops continue to mount with their invasion operation.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577097/ukraine-woman-down-drone-tomato-jar-russia-invasion-putin-latest-news-ont (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577097/ukraine-woman-down-drone-tomato-jar-russia-invasion-putin-latest-news-ont)
 
Dam!  :buggedout:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 09, 2022, 10:30:18 AM
anyone put off by the overt fascism on display in the Ukraine? particularly in the military ranks

That's certainly one of Putin's two talking points along with NATO. There are some independent paramilitary groups (most notably the Azov battalion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalionl)) that are far-right-wing. Of course, it would be better if they weren't tolerated, but the government is not turning down their assistance in a time of emergency.

They have their own politics that are unfamiliar to us: "“In Europe, Nazis support Putin. They think that he wants to make a white, Slavic Europe,” says [Sergeant] Kharkiv [of the Azvov Battalion]. “But the white leader, Putin, kills Slavic people. I don’t know what the separatists are fighting for."

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-many-neo-nazis-is-the-us-backing-in-ukraine (https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-many-neo-nazis-is-the-us-backing-in-ukraine)

2018 article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 09, 2022, 10:34:05 AM
Nata continues to post and continues to feed pigeons. Her sister and her sister's kids evacuated and is in Hungary. They think that Hungarians don't like Ukrainians.

Russian friend is still posting somehow and says he can access youtube. He's not posting anything specifically anti-Putin but you can tell he's not pro-war.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 09, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Quote
That's certainly one of Putin's two talking points along with NATO

Well, it outta be cuz its an accurate one. they also typically reject any sort of diplomacy with russia which is not helpful

"After President Zelensky’s election in 2019, the extreme right threatened him with removal from office, or even death, if he negotiated with separatist leaders from Donbas and followed through on the Minsk Protocol. Zelensky had run for election as a “peace candidate,” but under threat from the right, he refused to even talk to Donbas leaders, whom he dismissed as terrorists."

https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine (https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 09, 2022, 06:29:40 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 09, 2022, 06:36:54 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

It is frightening, stunning, and true. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 06:38:26 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

How so?
I've watched democracy get stomped on over the past year while jobs have disappeared and gas shot back up to $3.50 a gallon.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 09, 2022, 06:57:43 PM
Quote
That's certainly one of Putin's two talking points along with NATO

Well, it outta be cuz its an accurate one. they also typically reject any sort of diplomacy with russia which is not helpful

"After President Zelensky’s election in 2019, the extreme right threatened him with removal from office, or even death, if he negotiated with separatist leaders from Donbas and followed through on the Minsk Protocol. Zelensky had run for election as a “peace candidate,” but under threat from the right, he refused to even talk to Donbas leaders, whom he dismissed as terrorists."

https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine (https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine)

Even that article (which honestly looks to be written by far-left kooks---they frickin' cite "Moon of Alabama" as a source) states up front that "Russia exaggerating it as a pretext for war" and points out that their far-right party (and the Nazi sympathizers are a minority even in within the party) won less than 5% of the parliament. And their support is shrinking.

I find this to be pretty balanced: https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729572/the-russian-ukraine-conflict-could-strengthen-neo-fascist-groups-in-both-countri (https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729572/the-russian-ukraine-conflict-could-strengthen-neo-fascist-groups-in-both-countri)

There are Nazis everywhere. Hell, a couple of US Congresspeople just spoke at a Nazi event (where the crowd cheered for Putin, because Nazis can't seem to figure out who they support in this white-on-white conflict).

There's a right wing fringe in Ukraine, but it seems to me focusing on them only muddies the water in what is actually a rare case of moral clarity in world politics: Putin is 100% wrong. Even if you grant that there are Nazis in Ukraine, he can't invade a sovereign country to root them out. Anyone can invade anyone if that's the case.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 07:29:30 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

How so?
I've watched democracy get stomped on over the past year while jobs have disappeared and gas shot back up to $3.50 a gallon.

Oh, Cerebus- employment has been pretty good.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf (https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf)

f**k gas prices. Just tighten your belt. It's a war for freedom.  Dam.
Folks don't have a place to live in Ukraine. And your worried about how much it will take to drive your fat ass to McDonald's?
Gimme a break.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 07:51:47 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

How so?
I've watched democracy get stomped on over the past year while jobs have disappeared and gas shot back up to $3.50 a gallon.

f**k gas prices. Just tighten your belt. It's a war for freedom.  Dam.
Folks don't have a place to live in Ukraine. And your worried about how much it will take to drive your fat ass to McDonald's?
Gimme a break.

So you'll be just fine with cops in swat gear stopping you for no reason & going through your pockets every time you run up the street for your bag of weed?
Did you even read this?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 07:54:48 PM
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

How so?
I've watched democracy get stomped on over the past year while jobs have disappeared and gas shot back up to $3.50 a gallon.

f**k gas prices. Just tighten your belt. It's a war for freedom.  Dam.
Folks don't have a place to live in Ukraine. And your worried about how much it will take to drive your fat ass to McDonald's?
Gimme a break.

So you'll be just fine with cops in swat gear stopping you for no reason & going through your pockets every time you run up the street for your bag of weed?
Did you even read this?


Swat gear? WTF are you babbling about?What does weed and cops in swat gear have to do with gas prices???


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
^So, I take it you DIDN"T RED IT!^


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 08:02:04 PM
^So, I take it you DIDN"T RED IT!^

Didn"t red what???  :question:

You didn't post any link-?  :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 08:11:09 PM
^So, I take it you DIDN"T RED IT!^

Didn"t red what???  :question:

Indy brought up the loss of democracy HERE, then made it sound like the train wreck we've been on for the past year is some how a good thing to him.
I don't know if he eats mcdonalds, but if he says mass unemployment is better than freedom, I'm going to take issue, and yes, that does mean your right to weed or the ability to walk down the street without getting stopped & frisked.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 08:17:34 PM
^So, I take it you DIDN"T RED IT!^

Didn"t red what???  :question:

Indy brought up the loss of democracy HERE, then made it sound like the train wreck we've been on for the past year is some how a good thing to him.
I don't know if he eats mcdonalds, but if he says mass unemployment is better than freedom, I'm going to take issue, and yes, that does mean your right to weed or the ability to walk down the street without getting stopped & frisked.

Woah- wait.  I'm still trying to wrap my brain around mass unemployment, me smoking weed, and getting frisked by cops. None of this makes a lick of sense.
Oh- and weed is legal here. And I don't drive anywhere to get my weed.
(https://i.imgur.com/sQD76Lx.gif) (https://lunapic.com)
Please explain even ONE line of what you wrote. Just ONE.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 09, 2022, 08:24:21 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 08:37:05 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Or are just stupid and no one will hire you because you're bonkers.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 08:38:21 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Then how come employers are CHOSING not to return my calls or emails?
And how is $4.00 good for democracy?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 09, 2022, 08:39:31 PM
A.  Because they probably read the stuff you post here.
B.  I never said it was.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 08:42:30 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Then how come employers are CHOSING not to return my calls or emails?
And how is $4.00 good for democracy?

Maybe because your skills are not in demand? Or, for your age, your resume is not so great?
As far as $4.00 go- most folks will spend that much on coffee every morning.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 08:50:17 PM
B.  I never said it was.

One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

Actually, a statement like this suggests that you believe mass unemployment & out of control inflation ARE good for democracy.
It suggests seeing everyone broke & starving is a wonderful thing as long as democracy as you believe it should look falls into your narrative.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 09, 2022, 08:54:00 PM
Again, you miss my point (even though it wasn't very subtle).

Everyone else seemed to have no trouble grasping it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 09:00:05 PM
Again, you miss my point (even though it wasn't very subtle).

Everyone else seemed to have no trouble grasping it.

Really?
So far, nobody else has reacted to except RC & myself, & RC thought it was about MacDonald's

Speaks volumes about people who think poverty is great!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 09, 2022, 09:06:28 PM
Again, you miss my point (even though it wasn't very subtle).

Everyone else seemed to have no trouble grasping it.

Really?
So far, nobody else has reacted to except RC & myself, & RC thought it was about MacDonald's

Speaks volumes about people who think poverty is great!

Hoo-boy.
I'm done here.
McDonald's. Of everything I said, the only thing that wedged between your ears was 'McDonald's'. Not "MacDonald's". Or maybe it was. Maybe both were there and you chose the wrong one?
Hey, it happens to us all.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 09, 2022, 09:42:48 PM
Quote
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

I'm more disturbed by Americans who would steal food from the mouths of other Americans in order to support empire and nation building abroad

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNXr0mRWUAEFgQb?format=jpg&name=small)

note the wealth disparity. if you don't have to fight and your own economic situation isn't affected it's easy to be a globalist



literal Nazis and we're supposed to look the other way


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 09, 2022, 10:36:10 PM
Uh, who or what is  Rasmussen Poll? :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 09, 2022, 10:47:24 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Dig it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 09, 2022, 10:53:20 PM
...
One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.
Actually, a statement like this suggests that you believe mass unemployment & out of control inflation ARE good for democracy.
It suggests seeing everyone broke & starving is a wonderful thing as long as democracy as you believe it should look falls into your narrative.

I am sorry you are broke and starving.  Please recognize the sacrifices made that enable your remarks, though I understand that is hard when you are starving.   


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 09, 2022, 11:14:50 PM
Misfit - an extremely well known polling co


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 09, 2022, 11:35:58 PM
Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Y'know, it occurs to me that they kept trying this same krap all throughout the obama administration, when these number don't reflect businesses that had to close down because of covid or inflation, people who's employment benefits have run out, not to mention just how many of these jobs actually pay a living wage, particularly in this record setting inflation, which this krap for brains white house is is trying to pretend has nothing to do with their policies, and are now trying to pretend high prices have nothing to do with inflation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 10, 2022, 04:48:55 AM
 ^The reason you can't get a job has nothing to do with Biden or any political machinery in operation.
Being as your on SSI, you can only work a limited amount of time a week without them reducing your check.
That being said, your resume may read your a middle aged man with limited skills who is unable to work full time.
Not very impressive. Seems like you were also out of work threw the whole Trump term- your excuse falls flat on it's face.

PS: There was no Covid under Obama, by the way.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 10, 2022, 06:19:12 AM
I've heard more on Putin's latest nuke sword rattling, and  Zelensky's plea for a 'no fly zone', which is for the most part a declaration of war from NATO.
This is between a rock and a hard place for the whole world.  :bluesad:
The world is being cautious- Putin is not. He's going straight in, no rubber.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 10, 2022, 10:08:19 AM
Nata is still alive, still feeding pigeons, still posting.

She reports about a large pack of 50 or so dogs living in the botanical gardens, abandoned by their owners when they fled.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 03:02:38 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-passes-bill-offering-nearly-14-billion-in-aid-to-ukraine (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-passes-bill-offering-nearly-14-billion-in-aid-to-ukraine)

enhanced child tax credit for Americans gone but plenty of money for NATO


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 10, 2022, 03:11:09 PM
Ukraine isn't in NATO (and was turned down when it asked to join).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 03:43:10 PM
but it's why the situation has been forced upon the world


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 10, 2022, 03:52:39 PM
So you are saying NATO not letting Ukraine in, is the cause of this situation?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
if you don't understand the role of NATO expansion in this conflict I don't know what to tell you. You are either ignorant or heavily brainwashed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 10, 2022, 04:19:47 PM
So you are saying NATO not letting Ukraine in, is the cause of this situation?

I think Lester is acknowledging a no-win situation; a trap. 

If you believe NATO letting Ukraine in would have led to conflict, I expect you are correct. 

The possibility of NATO expansion into Ukraine surely has spooked poo-tin.  The ramifications are complex and huge. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 10, 2022, 04:22:17 PM
Oh I know the role of NATO expansion in it and how Putin has used it as an excuse for what he was going to do anyway. The reason they weren't being allowed in was to avoid conflict with Russia. Oddly enough, avoiding conflict with Russia was also why Ukraine wanted in.

I also know that Ukraine isn't in NATO and wasn't going to be getting in, which from your earlier post, you didn't seem to be aware of.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 04:27:04 PM
If you are going to nitpick : 15 billion for UKRAINE for assistance in a conflict that occurred because yaddq yadda

No enhanced child tax credit for Americans experiencing record inflation and so forth.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 10, 2022, 04:28:16 PM
There, we are making progress. Well done.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 10, 2022, 04:33:48 PM
If you are going to nitpick : 15 billion for UKRAINE for assistance in a conflict that occurred because yaddq yadda

No enhanced child tax credit for Americans experiencing record inflation and so forth.

Which comes out to about $49 per person...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 04:44:54 PM
It's a thousand bucks isn't it


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 10, 2022, 05:07:54 PM
Only if the population of the US is a mere 15,000,000. I think it is around 330 million which would make Cerb's number more accurate.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 10, 2022, 05:55:33 PM
It's the Ukrainian refugees getting $49 each in lieu of American parents getting a $1,000 tax credit.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 10, 2022, 06:25:24 PM
I see what you're saying


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 10, 2022, 11:49:15 PM
I read somewhere that the Ukraine had the foresight to destroy all rail lines between the two countries, which is important as Russian military trucks only have a 90 miles range, and are geared for transporting missiles, not food, fuel or other supplies...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 11, 2022, 09:52:53 AM
Nata still posting and still feeding pigeons. The park is deserted except for her and her husband. Looks like they managed to buy some berries as well. Per reports Russian forces are regrouping outside the city. I predict they'll increase shelling soon. Russia doesn't want house-to-house urban fighting but they may not have a choice.

My Russian friend continues to post on Facebook, using a VPN.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 11, 2022, 02:00:59 PM
A son living in Ukraine begs his father not to listen to Russian propaganda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSIsrvim4ec&t=470s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSIsrvim4ec&t=470s)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 11, 2022, 03:51:16 PM
I'd actually rather not know about stuff like this

https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03 (https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03)

Quote
Last month, Israel's Holocaust Memorial Museum, a chief rabbi, and several Israeli charities and organizations asked the US to avoid sanctioning Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, The Times of Israel reported on Sunday.

"I gotta get out of these sanctions... Let me call in a favor to the Holocaust Museum"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 11, 2022, 04:16:52 PM
I'd actually rather not know about stuff like this

https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03 (https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03)

Quote
Last month, Israel's Holocaust Memorial Museum, a chief rabbi, and several Israeli charities and organizations asked the US to avoid sanctioning Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, The Times of Israel reported on Sunday.

"I gotta get out of these sanctions... Let me call in a favor to the Holocaust Museum"

Pretty icky.  :thumbdown:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 11, 2022, 04:18:46 PM
I actually feel bad for Israel in these cases. They are between a rock and a hard place and can't really stand on principle when they probably would like to. Does anyone actually WANT to be friends with Saudi Arabia? it's unfathomable


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Argos on March 11, 2022, 06:40:15 PM
You Americans, don't realize that Ukraine was only free 23 years without be invaded. So, calling those people who are pro-Ukraine 'Nazis' is like calling Nazi your Patriotic heroes because they want to be free for their own.

Sorry if I offend you.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 11, 2022, 06:49:01 PM
...Pretty icky.  :thumbdown:
 

Ain't it though?   :hatred:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 11, 2022, 06:53:17 PM
You Americans, don't realize that Ukraine was only free 23 years without be invaded. So, calling those people who are pro-Ukraine 'Nazis' is like calling Nazi your Patriotic heroes because they want to be free for their own.

Sorry if I offend you.

 :question:  You don't offend, though lean close.  You read some dumb ass remarks from a USA politician, maybe?  The USA is a huge place compared to Europe.  I for one do not know what you are on about. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 11, 2022, 07:25:58 PM
I actually feel bad for Israel in these cases. They are between a rock and a hard place and can't really stand on principle when they probably would like to. Does anyone actually WANT to be friends with Saudi Arabia? it's unfathomable

Saudi Arabia, the UAE & other OPEC nations haven't returned biden'e calls for several weeks....
So instead of turning on the taps here in America, he's he's trying to get oil from Iran...........


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 12, 2022, 10:49:17 AM
Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons.

(https://thumbor.my.ua/uUPcIuSTzWqJxlWHYgue1GfaXzw=/600x/smart/filters:format(webp)/https%3A%2F%2Fs3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com%2Fmedia.my.ua%2Ffeed%2F209%2F396548c089e8db57984c5e7e8db77339.jpg)

Museum of Ukrainian Antiquities of Vasily Tarnovsky in Chernihiv

My Russian friend posts "16 DAYS OF HORROR" but refers to the war as the "special operation": I think he's being sarcastic, but it's hard to tell in translation.

There are a lot of Russians responding to him, so I guess Putin's attempt to block Facebook wasn't very successful.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 13, 2022, 09:55:54 AM
Nata still posts and feeds pigeons.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275660219_5067199673300180_4170782581982951897_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eiQiVK7AS1UAX_v4wNo&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9mGczVOeAHKrP0NS-MR8ZY2ZUhEKazCyf_3-39N0WN8w&oe=6232A33B)

Optimistic, no?

My Russian friend reports that Russians are trying to leave the country en masse, presumably to escape life under sanctions.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 13, 2022, 03:36:52 PM
uh oh

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-who-says-it-advised-ukraine-destroy-pathogens-health-labs-prevent-2022-03-11/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-who-says-it-advised-ukraine-destroy-pathogens-health-labs-prevent-2022-03-11/)

Quote
March 11 (Reuters) - The World Health Organization advised Ukraine to destroy high-threat pathogens housed in the country's public health laboratories to prevent "any potential spills" that would spread disease among the population, the agency told Reuters.

Like many other countries, Ukraine has public health laboratories researching how to mitigate the threats of dangerous diseases affecting both animals and humans including, most recently, COVID-19. Its labs have received support from the United States, the European Union and the WHO.


this happened in Iraq in 2003


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 14, 2022, 08:57:10 AM
Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons, even though war has come.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275692489_4674067289388334_9188185039280776846_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QA9xyrPnYfYAX85a1-X&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9jznFgOXGfXg-1cieWzLnFZ4zO13Q8ygHuTKfoZulRkw&oe=6234CE26)

This apartment was the home of a friend of hers---they evacuated beforehand.

Most of what she posts is in Russian or Ukrainian, but not this:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275478785_3032486073683890_130706068003266507_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_VCAWV9MKAgAX-Ot5xA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_d5-Rd1duvqm4KDcU5B7LNwOhumVumS3PVpc2fMMTdPw&oe=623464D8)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Trevor on March 14, 2022, 09:54:27 AM

Most of what she posts is in Russian or Ukrainian, but not this:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275478785_3032486073683890_130706068003266507_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_VCAWV9MKAgAX-Ot5xA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_d5-Rd1duvqm4KDcU5B7LNwOhumVumS3PVpc2fMMTdPw&oe=623464D8)

 :teddyr: :teddyr: :teddyr: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 14, 2022, 12:39:40 PM
Right now it's a proxy war for the 'West'.
The only thing that gives me hope is most Russians hate Russia.
And the Ukrainian people who are not budging.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 14, 2022, 11:49:40 PM
whole thing is starting to feel like Iraq to me


Quote
The only thing that gives me hope is most Russians hate Russia.

???


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 15, 2022, 06:02:19 AM
 ^I should rephrase that- most Russians hate Putin.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 15, 2022, 08:56:30 AM
^I should rephrase that- most Russians hate Putin.

Unfortunately, I don't think most Russians hate Putin (a significant minority does). My Russian FB friend told me he estimates about 2/3 of Russians believe the propaganda and support the war. The best consolation I could offer him was it was the same with Americans during the second Iraq war, but now almost everyone acknowledges it was a mistake.

Good article on Russia, Putin and history: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin)

Nata's still posting. Some sentimental stuff about her sister, who's now a refugee.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 16, 2022, 08:16:25 AM
Nata is still posting but not feeding the pigeons. Staying indoors. I doubt it's safer.

(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a3158K7_700bwp.webp)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on March 16, 2022, 09:45:40 AM
Darn you, Rev, it hurts when I snort my coffee!

Not that the picture is funny:  too apt to be 'haha' funny.   It just took me by surpise.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 16, 2022, 03:06:49 PM
What do people think will probably happen?

I think Zelensky is going through the motions of trying to get the US involved, but our hands are tied. We are a NATO member and its game over if we go in there.

I think Putin's rabid dog routine will work and Ukraine will eventually agree to not enter NATO in some sort of face saving way, like a 30 year moratorium on it.

Russia will head back home leaving some infrastructure in the pro Russia areas and western nations will fund reconstruction. It will take another month before this happens because of politics

this isn't necessarily what I would like to happen but I can see it going that way.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on March 16, 2022, 04:31:12 PM
What do people think will probably happen?

I think Zelensky is going through the motions of trying to get the US involved, but our hands are tied. We are a NATO member and its game over if we go in there.

I think Putin's rabid dog routine will work and Ukraine will eventually agree to not enter NATO in some sort of face saving way, like a 30 year moratorium on it.

Russia will head back home leaving some infrastructure in the pro Russia areas and western nations will fund reconstruction. It will take another month before this happens because of politics

this isn't necessarily what I would like to happen but I can see it going that way.

Quite plausible outcome, maybe even the most likely, I'd lean towards a scenario like this as well.  I think your outcome is also actually relatively optimistic, in that I think this is one of the better realistic outcomes for Ukraine.  They maintain sovereignty and don't have a new government installed and get funding to rebuild.  Ukraine might even get back the section of Donbas they lost.  I don't think Russia will give back any of Crimea though no matter what happens.   


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 16, 2022, 05:40:14 PM
What do people think will probably happen?

I think Zelensky is going through the motions of trying to get the US involved, but our hands are tied. We are a NATO member and its game over if we go in there.

I think Putin's rabid dog routine will work and Ukraine will eventually agree to not enter NATO in some sort of face saving way, like a 30 year moratorium on it.

Russia will head back home leaving some infrastructure in the pro Russia areas and western nations will fund reconstruction. It will take another month before this happens because of politics

this isn't necessarily what I would like to happen but I can see it going that way.

Quite plausible outcome, maybe even the most likely, I'd lean towards a scenario like this as well.  I think your outcome is also actually relatively optimistic, in that I think this is one of the better realistic outcomes for Ukraine.  They maintain sovereignty and don't have a new government installed and get funding to rebuild.  Ukraine might even get back the section of Donbas they lost.  I don't think Russia will give back any of Crimea though no matter what happens.   

I think lester's scenario is likely. I think Putin will annex the Donbass regions (and as much territory as he can) and declare victory, leaving Ukraine weakened but still independent. Putin will attempt to install a puppet government but it won't succeed. Ukraine will agree to not enter NATO. Pretty much everyone comes out a loser, except that there will be some deterrence for another dictator to invade a neighbor (looking at you, China).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 16, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
I'm not so optimistic. I hope I'm wrong, but expect the least.  :bluesad:
For some reason I've had dreams since a child of mushroom clouds. VERY realistic. I know this is a stupid, occult type of belief, but this kind of sh!t has happened to me all my life.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 16, 2022, 06:00:49 PM
The other day, I started working on a timeline of ww1 & ww2.....
While poxy support of the Sino-Japanese war complicates things just a bit, It's pretty clear in both cases that the United States was the "last" to get involved.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 16, 2022, 06:10:55 PM
I'm still hoping for the removal of Putin - either into forced retirement, a la Khrushchev, or instantaneous lead poisoning, a la Larentvia Beria.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on March 16, 2022, 07:26:31 PM
I think lester's scenario is the best that can be hoped for.

Well, aside from Putin's summary removal.

I thought I heard on today's news that Zelensky had said Ukraine will not be joining NATO.   Then it was suggested that Russia will insist Ukraine become officially neutral like Austria and Sweden.  Which would allow Ukraine to be both independent and to maintain its own military.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 16, 2022, 11:10:41 PM
Russia, Iran, China... these are ancient, huge countries. On some level it's natural for them to be powerful in their parts of the world. All have at some point flirted with freedom and open ness but ultimately that will probably be a decades if not centuries long process. Our approach of waiting for change overnight is not realistic.

RC- but that scenario is worth considering.


One thing I learned today is that these people going to Ukraine to fight are not covered by Geneva Conventions. If they are captured they will probably shot


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 16, 2022, 11:27:47 PM
I'm still hoping for the removal of Putin - either into forced retirement, a la Khrushchev, or instantaneous lead poisoning, a la Larentvia Beria.

Lavrentiy Beria was shot.   :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 17, 2022, 06:21:46 AM
That's instantaneous lead poisoning.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 17, 2022, 08:18:50 AM
Nata is posting and fed the pigeons again. I was worried about them.

My Russian FB friend hasn't posted in a couple of days, no idea why.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 17, 2022, 03:31:42 PM
That's instantaneous lead poisoning.

Yes.  And so many were poisoned properly, hence my clarification.  I actually looked him up to confirm what I'd thought.  "Lead poisoning". 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 18, 2022, 08:51:06 AM
Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. Russians still shelling residential areas.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 18, 2022, 08:59:28 AM
Shelling maternity wards and apartment buildings.
Makes me wanna cry.

http://youtu.be/ek6Le_mWNzE (http://youtu.be/ek6Le_mWNzE)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on March 18, 2022, 11:43:39 AM
And compared to what will come if this goes on, things haven't even STARTED to get nasty yet.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 19, 2022, 09:29:25 AM
Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. She posted pictures of her neighborhood today, undamaged but the streets are all eerily empty.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 19, 2022, 10:41:06 AM
And compared to what will come if this goes on, things haven't even STARTED to get nasty yet.

Sadly I have to agree with that.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 20, 2022, 10:47:07 AM
Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons in an empty park.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 20, 2022, 01:32:18 PM
all the "moderates" I follow on twitter are screaming for World War 3 while the extremists like Marjorie taylor Green and Ilhan Omar are urging caution and restraint


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 21, 2022, 08:07:05 AM
Nata is still posting, still feeding pigeons. Posted some pictures of empty streets, no damage near her. Reposted this from a friend:

(https://video.ilriformista.it/public/uploads/2022/03/Schermata-2022-03-21-alle-08.57.41.png)

It was a "sports complex" where the poster used to swim.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 22, 2022, 08:31:04 AM
My Russian friend is against the war but seems worried that the rest of the world is trying to "cancel" Russian culture. (Which is a rare Putin talking point he agrees with.) I tried to reassure him that Americans, at least, are not against Russian people or culture, we sympathize with the Russian people and strictly blame the current situation on Putin.

[Edit: it turns out he wasn't echoing Putin, he was responding to an article by an expatriate film critic who suggested "canceling" Russian culture).

Nata, meanwhile, is staying inside (there's a curfew in Kyiv) and seems in good spirits, all things considered.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 23, 2022, 08:11:18 AM
Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. The counteroffensive seems to have temporarily taken some of the heat off.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 23, 2022, 11:54:31 AM
This is inspiring-
The cellist.

http://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-23-22/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-23-22/index.html)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 23, 2022, 10:37:57 PM
I've had it with people talking about WW3 and nukes. sign the peace deal or whatever already


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 24, 2022, 12:35:39 AM
I've had it with people talking about WW3 and nukes. sign the peace deal or whatever already

" or whatever"
If you can figure out "whatever".  What peace deal they should sign? Where is this deal? Please, let the world know.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 24, 2022, 10:19:00 AM
"If Russia yields, it will probably yield to a provisional peace. Putin does not seem capable of learning from his mistakes. Yet a provisional peace that preserves Zelensky’s government, brings about a lasting cease-fire, and does not permanently infringe on Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty, and autonomy (as Kyiv defines the terms) may be attainable. As unjust as it would be, it is preferable to all the actual alternatives." Best case scenario, probably the likeliest as well.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-23/what-if-russia-makes-deal (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-23/what-if-russia-makes-deal)

Nata posted some pictures of her neighborhood, deserted but no damage visible anywhere.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 25, 2022, 09:11:25 AM
Nata's still feeding pigeons. The Ukrainians have driven back the Russians from the outskirts of Kyiv temporarily. They're so far back on their heels they're not even shelling the city right now.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 26, 2022, 07:35:28 PM
Nata still posting and feeding pigeons. Incredibly, it seems that the Russians may be abandoning Kyiv and moving their forces to the east! She may have dodged a missile!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 26, 2022, 07:38:50 PM
I hope the best for her.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 26, 2022, 07:59:16 PM
Putin says he's still committed to liberating everything east of the Dnieper River...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 26, 2022, 10:46:30 PM
Rev - how do you know this woman? just curious


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 27, 2022, 11:33:23 AM
Met her on social media decades ago (before Facebook was a thing.) Then her mother, who's been dead for a few years, also contacted me and wrote a few articles for my site. We've never met in person but we've exchanged gifts through the mail, going on 20 years now. I wanted to come see her or for her to come see me but in the early days she had trouble obtaining a visa, then it became an issue of cost or convenience, then she got married.

We were both quite depressed when we began corresponding and by the time we stopped we were both recovered.

She was sure/terrified of a Russian invasion the whole twenty years.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 27, 2022, 01:38:13 PM
Met her on social media decades ago (before Facebook was a thing.) Then her mother, who's been dead for a few years, also contacted me and wrote a few articles for my site. We've never met in person but we've exchanged gifts through the mail, going on 20 years now. I wanted to come see her or for her to come see me but in the early days she had trouble obtaining a visa, then it became an issue of cost or convenience, then she got married.

We were both quite depressed when we began corresponding and by the time we stopped we were both recovered.

She was sure/terrified of a Russian invasion the whole twenty years.

God bless her and her family. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 27, 2022, 04:36:55 PM
Putin says he's still committed to liberating everything east of the Dnieper River...

"liberating"?  :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 27, 2022, 04:59:01 PM
Putin says he's still committed to liberating everything east of the Dnieper River...

"liberating"?  :question:
That's his word for it, and the media dare not misquote him.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 27, 2022, 05:03:58 PM
What Putin says and does should be in the media, but I wouldn't parrot it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 27, 2022, 07:52:35 PM
Eh,
Some guys on Facebook who get their nooz from Al Jazeera instead of where everybody else is getting it tried to throw The Azov Battalion in everybody's face this morning....

Basically, Russia dropped their own insurgents, troublemakers & terrorists into Georgia, Crimea, & the Donbas region, & when the Ukraine started their own volunteer antiterrorism unit, Putin had no trouble turning it into a cute little antinazification narrative that looks good on Al Jazeera....

This is what I've looked up so far....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 27, 2022, 10:10:12 PM
^ uhhh I don't think theres any question of the Azov battalion and their political leanings.



Biden has hinted, actually outright said, that the US goal is regime change in Russia. What do they think would succeed Putin? His official successor is someone he hand picked and anyone who wins an election will be a lot like him or worse. and it certainly wouldn't be Alex Navalny, the NATO choice


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 27, 2022, 10:47:15 PM
^I only heard of this today, Didn't know what a political mess the Ukraine was until a week ago....^
Maybe that's why Putin thought this would be a cake walk....

^And if Biden's gonna talk the talk, he should let Poland give migs to the Ukraine.^


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 27, 2022, 11:10:07 PM
Biden only said what most people are thinking.
Putin is a mad dog who needs to be put down.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 12:40:45 AM
Not "most people" in russia, israel, China, India, Iran or any of the other countries still trading with Russia. The west isn't calling the shots anymore


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 28, 2022, 06:44:26 AM
They might not say it, but do you really think any of them support this disastrous war, in the name of nothing but naked conquest?
I don't think many people would grieve if Putin got hit by a bus right now.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 28, 2022, 07:57:15 AM
They might not say it, but do you really think any of them support this disastrous war, in the name of nothing but naked conquest?
I don't think many people would grieve if Putin got hit by a bus right now.

People would be dancing in the streets. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 28, 2022, 09:02:50 AM
Not "most people" in russia, israel, China, India, Iran or any of the other countries still trading with Russia. The west isn't calling the shots anymore

They just want to keep trading because they see an opportunity for war profiteering with the West temporarily withdrawing and Russia needing to find emergency new markets to buy and sell. They don't give a s**t about Putin or Russia or Ukraine, just rubles

But look at the chart midway down this article: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-24/ukraine-war-has-russia-s-putin-xi-jinping-exposing-capitalism-s-great-illusion (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-24/ukraine-war-has-russia-s-putin-xi-jinping-exposing-capitalism-s-great-illusion)

If Russia, China and India formed an exclusive trading block it would only be 25% of the world's GDP. Doesn't sound like a great deal. China needs US markets, they won't go too far.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 28, 2022, 12:44:11 PM
If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 12:50:29 PM
^ I don't think so. The guys an evil political dinosaur.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 28, 2022, 01:04:54 PM
Remember, this has been going on since before Putin, and none of this would be going on without party approval.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 01:13:01 PM
 ^ What party approval?  :question: It's not a party- it's a gang.

Russia is a sinking boat. I think theirs a good chance of a Russian revolution. It's not like it hasn't happened in recent times.  There are many more citizens against Putin than are for him.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 28, 2022, 01:18:28 PM
If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.

Hitler wasn't, Stalin wasn't, Horohito wasn't, Mao wasn't, Castro wasn't, Marcos wasn't, Hussein wasn't. Some may have been succeeded by bad leaders, but none were as bad as the historically bad person they replaced.

The Kims in North Korea all seem equally bad, and Roman emperors had bad stretches, though.

Doesn't seem possible Putin could be replaced by someone worse; equally bad is the worst case scenario.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 02:13:45 PM
Quote
If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.

or worse.

RC
Quote
I don't think so. The guys an evil political dinosaur.

he's hugely popular. people HERE don't like him, but thats not where he is!

indiana
Quote
They might not say it, but do you really think any of them support this disastrous war, in the name of nothing but naked conquest?

they might not say it but you can read their minds. In the rest of the world this war is seen as Putin vs NATO not any "naked conquest"



Did we all learn nothing from Iraq? All the people in Russia really want to be just like us and want trans beauty pageants in elementary schools. And that big mean evil dictators just do stuff for no reason and their people go along with it. snap out of it!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 28, 2022, 02:14:15 PM
If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.
...Hitler wasn't, Stalin wasn't, Horohito wasn't, Mao wasn't, Castro wasn't, Marcos wasn't, Hussein wasn't. Some may have been succeeded by bad leaders, but none were as bad as the historically bad person they replaced.  The Kims in North Korea all seem equally bad...

Right on!  


and Roman emperors had bad stretches, though...

And don't forget the "Five Good Emperors" ...  :smile:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 02:16:31 PM
Quote
If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.

or worse.

RC
Quote
I don't think so. The guys an evil political dinosaur.

he's hugely popular. people HERE don't like him, but thats not where he is!
 {/quote]




Not just HERE- all over the world.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 02:18:07 PM
someone called "Chef Zombie' just downvoted me for going against the war fervor here


chefzombie    lester1/2jr    -    dream on, lol!


couldn't bring herself to actually debate the point in the thread (thank you, RC)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 02:20:21 PM
RC - here is a map of countries who have sanctions on russia


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO9HuePXwAMFMaj?format=jpg&name=large)

the whole world?




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on March 28, 2022, 02:38:27 PM
One needs merely look up history to learn that Russia has been out to reclaim it's old territories since the late 1990's...
They've been poisoning escaped KGB Agents & political opposition they don't like & rigging elections just as long....
When I was at WRIR (Started in 2006), stories about locking up people & rock groups over censorship was a popular topic....

Ever since Yeltsin, the hardline communists have been doing everything they can to get it all back.....
Unless you can wipe out an ideology held by a large enough minority of elitists, this won't end with Putin.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 28, 2022, 02:47:00 PM
(https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w776_r0.png)

Maybe they didn't enact sanctions (maybe they can't afford the economic hit), but most voted to condemn the invasion.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 02:56:58 PM
thats true. good point


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 28, 2022, 03:22:38 PM
someone called "Chef Zombie' just downvoted me for going against the war fervor here

chefzombie    lester1/2jr    -    dream on, lol!

couldn't bring herself to actually debate the point in the thread (thank you, RC)

It's just tracks in the snow...  :smile:  I know you don't care.   :thumbup: 

Poo Tin is popular (and not) in Russia, but he is despised everywhere.  That does not mean that those that hate and are hated are too proud to take money.   :thumbdown:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 09:35:16 PM
I don't get it. He seems to be doing a decent job of running Russia and there's no iron curtain. People are free to leave as they please and they don't practice Marxist economics.  People had the same thing with Saddam Hussein, they just had to get rid of him and what happened: a 10/10 multi trillion dollar disaster.

It should never have come to this. Why did they keep expanding NATO when they knew it would antagonize him? as always its the little people who suffer for the policy decisions of those who don't have to feel the consequences.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 09:44:18 PM
^ Are you insane?  :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 09:47:51 PM
because my life doesn't revolve around washington's concerns? This country is falling apart but they send 15 billion to ukraine. There were 800 homicides in Chicago in 2021 maybe we should work that out first


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 09:55:15 PM
^ No- because you sound insane!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 09:58:40 PM
he discussed the reason for invading Ukraine in his initial speech, which is on the first page of this thread actually

Quote
President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Citizens of Russia, friends,

I consider it necessary today to speak again about the tragic events in Donbass and the key aspects of ensuring the security of Russia.

I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.

It is a fact that over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border.

.... [later]

Despite all that, in December 2021, we made yet another attempt to reach agreement with the United States and its allies on the principles of European security and NATO’s non-expansion. Our efforts were in vain. The United States has not changed its position. It does not believe it necessary to agree with Russia on a matter that is critical for us. The United States is pursuing its own objectives,


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 10:04:02 PM
If Putin is such a great guy- why did he attack Ukraine? Why did he try to interfere with the elections? Why does he have people who speak against him killed?
Putin's a piece of s**t.

Your praise of Putin sounds insane.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 28, 2022, 10:10:29 PM
Putin does a decent job of running Russia if you don't care about his shutting down the free press, imprisoning political enemies, poisoning and otherwise murdering his political enemies, invading his neighbors, installing puppet governments in other countries, running a propaganda empire, or supporting Syria's genocidal war.  Jeez, if an American leader did those things I hope you'd be OPPOSED to him.

Surely you are trolling?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 10:32:34 PM
Assad is fighting Al Qaeda like we are. and fighting the extermination of Middle Eastern Christians.

"invading his neighbors" you sound like a 2003 neoconservative. again, you need to learn the lessons of Iraq. The New World Order is the problem not the alleged "bad actors"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 28, 2022, 10:38:55 PM
 ^ You are insane.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 28, 2022, 10:43:18 PM
if the Iraq war were to happen again you guys would support it. because "everyone" hates saddam hussein


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 29, 2022, 06:54:53 AM
...It should never have come to this. Why did they keep expanding NATO when they knew it would antagonize him? as always its the little people who suffer for the policy decisions of those who don't have to feel the consequences.
 

^ You are insane.  :bluesad:

No he's not.  He's right. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 29, 2022, 07:59:46 AM
Possibly because at the time they joined Russia (under both Putin and Yeltsin), had asked about joining NATO. The door was opened for them to explore further, but they decided not to pursue it and because eventually those Eastern European countries were aware that if they didn't seek protection, sooner or later someone would get into power and want to get them back under Russia's banner. Either way they had no reason not to join and every reason to want to.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 29, 2022, 08:40:55 AM
Assad is fighting Al Qaeda like we are. and fighting the extermination of Middle Eastern Christians.

"invading his neighbors" you sound like a 2003 neoconservative. again, you need to learn the lessons of Iraq. The New World Order is the problem not the alleged "bad actors"

You ignore all the enemies Putin imprisons and murders in your praise for him as a great and honorable leader who never ever lies. I think you would make a more persuasive case if you didn't sound like a huge fan of this dictator. You could certainly make a case for non-intervention without praising him---even while condemning him. I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

Anyone, neoconservative or not, can condemn "invading his neighbors." I don't really know what your political philosophy is when invading sovereign nations is a neutral act not worthy of condemnation. Might makes right, I guess.

My lessons from Iraq are the first invasion to liberate Kuwait was justified, the second one (2003) was an unjustified disastrous mistake and had nothing to do with an invasion of a neighbor.

If a bomb falls on Nata's apartment building and kills her I'll blame Putin, not the "New World Order." She wanted Ukraine to join NATO precisely so what is happening now wouldn't happen.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 29, 2022, 01:58:50 PM
here is the historical GDP of recent Russia

(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander-Lukin-2/publication/326972728/figure/fig1/AS:658348458385408@1533973912156/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank.png)


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank_fig1_326972728 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank_fig1_326972728)


Putins first term began in 2000. note the direction of the graph and this is without the other soviet states anymore.

Quote
I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

I absolutely would. What is the significance of that?

The invasion of Iraq was wrong that doesn't mean I wanted to live in Iraq under Saddam Hussein or anyone.


Alex -
Quote
Either way they had no reason not to join and every reason to want to.

and look where we are now. was it worth it? The Earth is laid out the way it is. Russia is a huge powerful country I am certainly glad we aren't next to them but the US and NATO aren't God. The potential of Eastern European leaders being corrupt is not a good reason for the entire world to await nuclear war. I feel bad for Hong Kong that they are now having to have China take over their country. I love their capitalist ethos and amazing kung fu films which will now be censored in some fashion I'm sure, but China has 1.4 billion people and an a***ole president. This is how its going to go for a while


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 29, 2022, 02:35:17 PM


Quote
I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

I absolutely would. What is the significance of that?


The significance is you say this brutal dictator has done a decent job running Russia, accept every one of his statements at face value, and cast all the blame for the conflict on the West. You probably don't realize it, but you come across like a big Putin fan, like Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump. I don't believe you really are, but I think your rhetoric is hurting your own case.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 29, 2022, 03:12:05 PM
I'm quite a bit like Tucker Carlson. Is that bad? I also like Ilhan omar

Would also point out that Dmitri Medvedev was president from 2008-2012, elected largely because he kept the graph going in the right direction.

I don't accept any poltician's statement at face value. The idea that Nato expansion would antagonize Russia goes back to the very end of the cold war long before putin's terms


Quote
George Kennan on NATO Expansion

Excerpt from George F. Kennan, “A Fateful Error,” New York Times, 05 Feb 1997

“Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the Cold War, should East-West relations become centered on the question of who would be allied with whom and, by implication, against whom in some fanciful, totally unforeseeable and most improbable future military conflict?”

luntly stated…expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking … ”

https://comw.org/pda/george-kennan-on-nato-expansion/




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 29, 2022, 03:25:09 PM
I'd say for the countries not being invaded by Russia hell yes it was worth it. I agree, Russia knows that it has a much bigger army. It also knows that NATO's forces are not big enough to threaten it in an invasion. Putin certainly wasn't worried about eastern expansion when he was considering having Russia join it himself.

Then again, as I said before, the whole eastern expansion thing is just a bulls**t excuse for him to do what he was going to do anyway. Shame you are suckered in by it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 29, 2022, 03:39:18 PM
again, the idea that NATO expansion would antagonize Russia pre dates Putin. see above


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 29, 2022, 03:40:15 PM
And yet he wanted to join. As did his predessor.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 29, 2022, 03:46:35 PM
https://www.nato.int/nrc-website/en/about/index.html (https://www.nato.int/nrc-website/en/about/index.html) the two entities do work together quite a bit, outside of the current conflict obviously


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 29, 2022, 03:50:18 PM
I'm quite a bit like Tucker Carlson.







That explains a lot   :lookingup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 29, 2022, 03:54:42 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 29, 2022, 04:02:49 PM
And yet Russia claims we ignore them despite that cooperation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 30, 2022, 10:29:43 AM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.

I reckon that would be the first city they take, being it's f**kING EMPTY!!!!  :buggedout:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 30, 2022, 02:30:36 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.

I reckon that would be the first city they take, being it's f**kING EMPTY!!!!  :buggedout:
Driving through one of the most radioactive areas on every without radiation protection....yeah they're good as dead.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on March 30, 2022, 02:36:21 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.

I reckon that would be the first city they take, being it's f**kING EMPTY!!!!  :buggedout:
Driving through one of the most radioactive areas on every without radiation protection....yeah they're good as dead.

Soviet tactical doctrine said that if it came to a war with NATO and tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons were used, they would simply march Warsaw Pact forces through the ruins and have them fight until they died of radiation poisoning.

I guess nothing has changed there then.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on March 30, 2022, 06:46:01 PM
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJplFVLQ85M#)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 30, 2022, 06:58:55 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.

I reckon that would be the first city they take, being it's f**kING EMPTY!!!!  :buggedout:
Driving through one of the most radioactive areas on every without radiation protection....yeah they're good as dead.

Soviet tactical doctrine said that if it came to a war with NATO and tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons were used, they would simply march Warsaw Pact forces through the ruins and have them fight until they died of radiation poisoning.

I guess nothing has changed there then.
You would think after Chernobyl that they would redo that doctrine....but as we see with their military being towed away by tractors that they don't have the best equipment outside the AK47.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 30, 2022, 07:16:43 PM
Nobody's in Chernobyl. That's why Putin choose that city as a foothold. He doesn't care if his own soldiers die.
He doesn't care who dies. That's why I'm thinking he may use a nuke. Because he's that kind of a narcissist.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on March 30, 2022, 08:13:36 PM
Nobody's in Chernobyl. That's why Putin choose that city as a foothold. He doesn't care if his own soldiers die.
He doesn't care who dies. That's why I'm thinking he may use a nuke. Because he's that kind of a narcissist.


I think he's willing to, but I don't think he will as long as his own position is secure since he knows it would mean the end of his ambitions for Russia, and his own life most likely.  That is, he won't use nukes to win in Ukraine, but if NATO started to invade Russia itself, certainly on the table.  Basically, I do think he's essentially rational, just surrounded by yes-men and also evil, uncaring about the deaths of innocents in the way of his goals.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on March 30, 2022, 09:40:59 PM
I just read that seven busloads of Russian soldiers suffering from acute radiation sickness were taken to medical facilities in Belarus.
They had been ordered to dig trenches in the forest near the Chernobyl power plant.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 30, 2022, 11:07:31 PM
the source for this is a facebook post. casting doubt because I'm pretty sure russians would understand about Chernobyl/ radiation


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 30, 2022, 11:20:31 PM
the source for this is a facebook post. casting doubt because I'm pretty sure russians would understand about Chernobyl/ radiation

Perhaps these BOYS had no idea that they were near Chernobyl.  Perhaps they were afraid to disobey orders.  Perhaps it was just stupid army intelligence (dig trenches).  Duh. 
People no longer need the TV news to know what's happening in the world, but they do need discernment. 
I do believe RC is correct that BED PAN er, POO TIN does not care who dies.   


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 30, 2022, 11:51:27 PM
the source for this is a facebook post. casting doubt because I'm pretty sure russians would understand about Chernobyl/ radiation

They took the city a month ago, genius.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/25/1083210202/russia-chernobyl-ukraine (https://www.npr.org/2022/02/25/1083210202/russia-chernobyl-ukraine)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 31, 2022, 12:35:06 AM
Russia have , for strategic purposes, pulled out of chernobyl, so the obvious conspiracy theory is they are leaving because they have developed cancer. Why would they dig trenches if there were no pp?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on March 31, 2022, 12:38:29 AM
^ They pulled out of Chernobyl, Wile E., because nothings  there.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 31, 2022, 04:24:13 AM
Supposedly they pulled out after getting some nuclear material to make a dirty bomb.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on March 31, 2022, 06:53:27 AM
Some brilliance from Twitter:

Andrej
@AndrejNkv
I am the very model of a Russian Major General
My standing in the battlefield is growing quite untenable
My forces, though equipped and given orders unequivocal
Did not expect the fight to be remotely this reciprocal

I used to have a tank brigade but now I have lost several
My fresh assaults are faltering with battleplans extemporal
I can't recover vehicles but farmers in a tractor can
It's all becoming rather reminiscent of Afghanistan

My ordnance is the best but only half my missiles make it there
I would have thought by now that we would be controllers of the air
But at the rate the snipers work my time here is ephemeral
I am the very model of a Russian Major General


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on March 31, 2022, 08:12:44 AM
The only non-paywall article I can find about Russian soldiers suffering radiation sickness after digging trenches in Chernobyl is skeptical.

https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714 (https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714)

I'm a complete layman, but this doesn't match my understanding of radiation in Chernobyl, either. You're exposed to high levels of background radiation and you develop cancer years later, you don't get sick immediately.

In good news, it looks like Putin appears to have temporarily abandoned his plans to take Kyiv. My uneducated guess is he'll focus on securing the East and some land connection to Crimea and then declare victory to save face. But capturing Mariupol will be brutal. 10,000 civilian deaths and the city mostly reduced to rubble isn't impossible to imagine.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Trevor on March 31, 2022, 08:32:08 AM
Some brilliance from Twitter:

Andrej
@AndrejNkv
I am the very model of a Russian Major General
My standing in the battlefield is growing quite untenable
My forces, though equipped and given orders unequivocal
Did not expect the fight to be remotely this reciprocal

I used to have a tank brigade but now I have lost several
My fresh assaults are faltering with battleplans extemporal
I can't recover vehicles but farmers in a tractor can
It's all becoming rather reminiscent of Afghanistan

My ordnance is the best but only half my missiles make it there
I would have thought by now that we would be controllers of the air
But at the rate the snipers work my time here is ephemeral
I am the very model of a Russian Major General


Wow: such true words from a soldier on the front line instead of a General sending brave soldiers ahead of himself.

I am on Twitter as well: @ZombieT14.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: El Misfit on March 31, 2022, 02:09:21 PM
The only non-paywall article I can find about Russian soldiers suffering radiation sickness after digging trenches in Chernobyl is skeptical.

https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714 (https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714)

I'm a complete layman, but this doesn't match my understanding of radiation in Chernobyl, either. You're exposed to high levels of background radiation and you develop cancer years later, you don't get sick immediately.

In good news, it looks like Putin appears to have temporarily abandoned his plans to take Kyiv. My uneducated guess is he'll focus on securing the East and some land connection to Crimea and then declare victory to save face. But capturing Mariupol will be brutal. 10,000 civilian deaths and the city mostly reduced to rubble isn't impossible to imagine.
Orphan sources can speed up radiation sickness, see Goiâna Incident, Tammiku Caesium incident,  Lia Radiological Accident, so it is possible that the troops did get nuclear material and were transporting it without it being covered/sealed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on April 01, 2022, 08:09:40 AM
Nata posts more pictures of the streets of Kiev, and it looks like more people are out and about. Before the streets were always totally deserted. There is a lot of graffiti, I don't know if it was there before but I'm guessing since she took pictures of it it's new, probably anti-Russian stuff. The mood seems optimistic.

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/277663556_10159326196299091_8523068912204304896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=qs2SXGaUZoMAX-LFGaL&tn=eoYOeHuy1nZBQ0xA&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-X-Kw6Xkh0k0NV9iCWuk-yC_BuNjVlB65u_fhX_sMgtQ&oe=624CDD20)

Meanwhile fighting continues on the outskirts of town. "The risk of dying (in Kyiv) is pretty high, and that's why my advice to anyone who wants to come back is: Please, take a little bit more time," Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko said, issuing a warning to residents who have fled the capital. (https://news.yahoo.com/kyiv-mayor-says-big-battles-122029214.html)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on April 01, 2022, 02:09:07 PM
misfit - Russia has tons of conventional weapons. They have no reason to make or use a dirty bomb


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on April 05, 2022, 08:27:03 AM
Nata still doing well. Posted pictures of the Bucha massacres. Too grotesque for me to repost, nothing you can't find with a Google search.

I am a little worried about my Russian friend because he posted saying that Russia was responsible for the killings in Bucha. This is illegal under Putin's regime. He had been careful not to call it a war previously (which is also illegal).

This guy posted a YouTube video from inside Kiev.

https://youtu.be/DqIF2U4g7H8

Special operation is hell.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on April 09, 2022, 03:05:39 PM
Rather surprised by this, but our generally useless leader actually visited Ukraine in person. It would give me some respect for him if he hadn't done so much other stupid s**t.

Anyway:

https://twitter.com/defencehq


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on April 10, 2022, 01:52:30 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPqxXSOXsAUuqck?format=jpg&name=900x900)

this is the unit that did the Bucha massacre

the guy second from the left looks kind of like Putin even though they are more overtly Asian in appearance


the Commander of the unit

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPcj1kGWQAgH5gX?format=jpg&name=medium)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on April 29, 2022, 06:56:37 AM
Rev, how is your friend doing now? Hoping things have calmed down in Kyiv with the Russian withdrawal and redeployment.

Sadly (but not unexpectedly), I've been told that for reasons directly connected to my job I can't host a Ukrainian refugee, but we are still doing what we can to help out, sending over medical supplies and whatnot.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on April 29, 2022, 07:47:01 AM
Rev, how is your friend doing now? Hoping things have calmed down in Kyiv with the Russian withdrawal and redeployment.

Sadly (but not unexpectedly), I've been told that for reasons directly connected to my job I can't host a Ukrainian refugee, but we are still doing what we can to help out, sending over medical supplies and whatnot.

Since the Russians withdrew and they stopped bombing nightly, things appear to have returned to more of a normal routine. People are getting out more and socializing. Of course, every now and then they lob a few missiles her way.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Trevor on May 02, 2022, 04:10:39 PM
One of our idiotic politicians here has now decided to go to the Ukraine on a "fact finding mission" 😳🤧💩😝


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: claws on May 02, 2022, 04:24:03 PM
and the 2022 Darwin Award goes to ...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 02, 2022, 04:27:05 PM
I didn't read the article, but I saw something about Angelina Jolie visiting and being caught up in an air raid.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Newt on May 02, 2022, 05:42:26 PM
One of our idiotic politicians here has now decided to go to the Ukraine on a "fact finding mission" 😳🤧💩😝
I think the word is "gek"?  (Is "bossies" offensive?)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Trevor on May 03, 2022, 01:51:28 AM
and the 2022 Darwin Award goes to ...

 :teddyr: :teddyr:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Trevor on May 03, 2022, 01:53:09 AM
One of our idiotic politicians here has now decided to go to the Ukraine on a "fact finding mission" 😳🤧💩😝
I think the word is "gek"?  (Is "bossies" offensive?)


Gek is right: it means mad or crazy, while bossies [bushies] dates back to the war in Angola: many veterans of that war suffer the bush curse which is akin to PTSD.

For context, this is the idiot politician:

https://ewn.co.za/2022/05/02/what-are-you-doing-there-safricans-question-why-steenhuisen-visiting-ukraine (https://ewn.co.za/2022/05/02/what-are-you-doing-there-safricans-question-why-steenhuisen-visiting-ukraine)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 17, 2022, 03:20:15 PM
My favourite moment is about the 47 seconds mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on May 17, 2022, 04:36:18 PM
My favourite moment is about the 47 seconds mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8)

Y'mean the little dancing poo tin?  Hilarious.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 17, 2022, 11:21:49 PM
interesting perspective from Dutch passenger today. He ultimately blamed Putin for the war, but pointed out that NATO really has nothing to gain by having Ukraine as a member. European take on them is mostly that they are incredibly corrupt.

He was very critical of biden, Macron, and other leaders who couldn't stop the clearly avoidable conflict  "this is what we pay them for" are they really world LEADERS if they can't rise to the occasion on such... occasions?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 01:13:50 AM
I agree with them being corrupt, but if your passenger can't see the value in having a country that is kicking Russia's arse in an alliance that was set up to basically defend against that same country, then there really is no hope for him.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on May 18, 2022, 07:46:33 AM
I don't buy your passenger's premise that the conflict was "clearly avoidable."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 01:29:36 PM
Quote
kicking Russia's arse
I don't know about that


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-evacuate-mariupol-ceding-control-russia-2022-05-17/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-evacuate-mariupol-ceding-control-russia-2022-05-17/)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on May 18, 2022, 01:39:56 PM
We're also running out of those javelin missiles, as well as stinger missiles.....
Lockheed Martin says it will take at least two years to resupply the number of javelins that have been used in Ukraine, and the stingers they've been using haven't been made in over a decade & the components are no longer available....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 01:57:24 PM
PMSL, did you actually read that article before posting it?

With lines like
Quote
More than 250 Ukrainian fighters surrendered to Russian forces at the Azovstal steelworks in Mariupol after weeks of desperate resistance, bringing an end to the most devastating siege of Russia's war in Ukraine and allowing President Vladimir Putin to claim a rare victory in his faltering campaign.

(Just so you know, capturing 250 troops, is not really a big deal in this size of a war).

Quote
Even as the Kremlin prepares to take full control of the ruins of Mariupol, it faces the growing prospect of defeat in its bid to conquer all of Ukraine's eastern Donbas because its badly mauled forces lack the manpower for significant advances

A few thousand defenders held up 5 full combat units for how long? Surrounded with no fresh supplies, no hope of reinforcement, defending a steelworks and holding up 5 full Russian combat units, tying up manpower the Russians badly need elsewhere. If you want to know what kind of effect a defeat like that can have, well I'll assume you are familiar with the story of the Alamo. I am willing to bet that the defenders of that plant will become legends in their country for holding out for so long against those odds.

Thanks for posting an article that backs me up on the Ukrainians kicking Russia's arse though. Not that I needed it, but thanks anyway.

In more good news for Ukrainian forces, they have pushed Russian forces outside of their country and reached the Russian border. This war has a long way to go and everything could still all change. Even if Ukrainian forces still keep winning, they will still experience setbacks like Mariupol but it is nice to see the good guys winning at the moment.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 02:09:22 PM
Quote
a rare victory
Quote

A rare victory



also https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-11/russian-ruble-surpasses-brazilian-real-as-world-s-best-currency (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-11/russian-ruble-surpasses-brazilian-real-as-world-s-best-currency)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 02:18:09 PM
Quote
a rare victory
Quote

A rare victory

Whereas Ukrainian forces are having many victories. Ergo, they are kicking Russia's arse.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 02:19:09 PM
thats true ukraine won the Eurovision song contest


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 02:21:21 PM
Yup, just one of many ways and places they are winning in. Not to be unexpected when you are fighting a regime as corrupt as Russia though.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 02:33:58 PM
Oh gods, my sides are hurting so much from laughing at Russia being able to take a single building complex being viewed as a victory. If they keep winning like that they will be lucky to hold onto the Crimea never mind making progress. That is the kind of performance I'd love to see in any nation I go to war against.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 02:36:11 PM
"russia wins"

anti russia guy "this is good. no its great. aahh yes yes!!!!!"



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 02:37:24 PM
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pyrrhicvictory.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pyrrhicvictory.asp)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 03:00:18 PM
Russias 'victories':

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2022/putins-war-efforts-stalling-as-russian-forces-run-out-of-combat-ready-reserves (https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2022/putins-war-efforts-stalling-as-russian-forces-run-out-of-combat-ready-reserves)

For some context, Russia was believed to have approx 2700 MBTs tanks at the start of the conflict. Many of its components for its military were manufactured in Ukraine, so funnily enough, they are having a hard time replacing their losses in several vital areas of military supplies.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-military-equipment-losses/31847839.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-military-equipment-losses/31847839.html)

Yeah, if they keep winning that way, sooner or later they are going to run out of troops and equipment. It is a very basic military concept. You win wars by depleting the enemies' ability to fight, faster than they can deplete yours. If you want to take part in a debate about this, you really should learn something about how wars are fought and won and why what you call a victory will leave the Russian army depleted and exhausted (even more so than it currently is), if that is how they keep winning. But hey, you go ahead trying to trumpet what is a minor Russian victory into something major. "Oh no, the Russians took a factory. Whelp, I guess we better surrender, never mind that we are pushing them back on several fronts and have chased Russian units back into their own country and could even cross into Russian territory for a counter-invasion if we wanted."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on May 18, 2022, 03:54:22 PM

anti russia guy



Isn't everyone here an anti-Russia guy? I thought you only didn't want us involved in the conflict in any way, not that you were actively rooting for Russia.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on May 18, 2022, 04:02:09 PM
"russia wins"

anti russia guy "this is good. no its great. aahh yes yes!!!!!"



So your a 'pro-russia' guy? Figures. Seems like folks with your mind set hate commies- but love Putin!
Who most certainly wants to bring back the USSR.
You cherry pick news to fit your belief system. What that system is- who knows.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 04:38:27 PM
Doesn't everyone here agree with me?

Isn't that the correct opinion?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on May 18, 2022, 04:45:28 PM
Doesn't everyone here agree with me?

Isn't that the correct opinion?

No.
Now you're just trolling.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 18, 2022, 04:45:56 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but if everyone agreed with you, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Also, I'd say I am more anti-putin personally than anti-Russian. It's a place I'd love to visit someday, although I don't see it happening any time soon.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 06:23:59 PM
I was mimicking Rev Powell sorry that wasn't more clear


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 10:20:48 PM
okay well some people view this as a good vs evil thing and others, me, view it as an avoidable conflict brought on by western arrogance. Thats basically it


rc -
Quote
Seems like folks with your mind set hate commies- but love Putin!

your side loves communism but hates Putin whats up with that?





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on May 18, 2022, 10:36:34 PM
Doesn't everyone here agree with me?

Isn't that the correct opinion?

I'd love to agree with you Lester

What opinion are you inquiring about?   


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 18, 2022, 10:44:12 PM
who even knows at this point


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on May 19, 2022, 08:58:23 PM
I'm not kidding.  I'm not following this thread, though I looked back a page.   :question:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: RCMerchant on May 20, 2022, 07:22:12 AM
okay well some people view this as a good vs evil thing and others, me, view it as an avoidable conflict brought on by western arrogance. Thats basically it


rc -
Quote
Seems like folks with your mind set hate commies- but love Putin!

your side loves communism but hates Putin whats up with that?





My side? What side would that be?
Do you even know what 'communism' is?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 20, 2022, 07:54:16 AM
Turns out the fight there is still ongoing at the steelworks, so reports of a rare victory are, as yet a bit premature. Their command has issued an order for them to surrender though. 10 weeks under siege and counting.

Other reports suggest that Ukrainian forces may be taking limited scale strikes across the border at high-value military targets, including a helicopter attack and sabotage teams. I hope more Russian civilians don't end up paying the price for putin's arrogance.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 20, 2022, 02:23:40 PM
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)

"The National Guard of Ukraine has shared a video on its Twitter account that appears to show Azov fighters greasing bullets with pig fat, ostensibly to be used against against Muslim Chechens deployed to their country as Russia steps up its military assault on Ukraine."


pig fat and bullets paid for by you and me (if you're American)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 20, 2022, 03:08:05 PM
Meanwhile a one-year-old reported to have been raped by Russian soldiers has died.

https://www.businessinsider.com/1-year-old-died-rape-russian-soldiers-ukraine-ombudsman-said-2022-5?r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com/1-year-old-died-rape-russian-soldiers-ukraine-ombudsman-said-2022-5?r=US&IR=T)

A Russian soldier being prosecuted for war crimes has confessed and begged for forgiveness from his victim's widow. This is the first war crime trial of the war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61496428 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61496428)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Jim H on May 20, 2022, 05:57:19 PM
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)

"The National Guard of Ukraine has shared a video on its Twitter account that appears to show Azov fighters greasing bullets with pig fat, ostensibly to be used against against Muslim Chechens deployed to their country as Russia steps up its military assault on Ukraine."


pig fat and bullets paid for by you and me (if you're American)

There's a lot of Chechens on the Ukraine side too.  Wonder how they feel about it.

But yeah, the Azov guys are, to put it mildly, lousy people, but I can't blame Ukraine for continuing to field them any more than I could Finland allying with the Nazis back in the day.  You take whoever you can get when Russia invades.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 20, 2022, 11:21:17 PM
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)

"The National Guard of Ukraine has shared a video on its Twitter account that appears to show Azov fighters greasing bullets with pig fat, ostensibly to be used against against Muslim Chechens deployed to their country as Russia steps up its military assault on Ukraine."


pig fat and bullets paid for by you and me (if you're American)

There's a lot of Chechens on the Ukraine side too.  Wonder how they feel about it.

But yeah, the Azov guys are, to put it mildly, lousy people, but I can't blame Ukraine for continuing to field them any more than I could Finland allying with the Nazis back in the day.  You take whoever you can get when Russia invades.

Indeed, and Russias invasion will make heroes out of them increasing their appeal. Putin's 'anti-nazification' is more likely to make things worse than better.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 20, 2022, 11:43:19 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTL7I3UXsAUb4gv?format=png&name=small)

all of the countries on this chart have more skin in the game than we do. the Eu's economy is bigger than ours whats going on here?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on May 21, 2022, 09:07:52 AM
([url]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTL7I3UXsAUb4gv?format=png&name=small[/url])

all of the countries on this chart have more skin in the game than we do. the Eu's economy is bigger than ours whats going on here?


Our economy and military dwarfs all those countries. Look at it by percentage of GDP instead:

(http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27331.jpeg)

Also, European countries are absorbing a greater blow from boycotts of Russian products. Still, it's true France and Germany, especially, should be doing more.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 21, 2022, 03:09:45 PM
Its a new kind of "proxy war" when one entity is furnishing  basically the entire military of one side of a conflict.

I can't help but think if our input was the same as these other entities we would have reached some sort of conclusion by now, a negotiated peace


Alex - "Insider could find no independent evidence for the claim." their source is the Ukrainian government which has no aversion to spinning tales. Obviously it is a very clear war crime if true. in wars there are atrocities but also atrocity propaganda


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 21, 2022, 03:49:11 PM
I'd also point out that the video you posted was not verified either.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 21, 2022, 11:18:26 PM
the video was posted and commented on back in February https://twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/1498030734740803584 is also in the article


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on May 22, 2022, 06:26:50 AM
The article also states that the video had not been verified.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on May 22, 2022, 09:59:25 PM
Quote
The article also states that the video had not been verified.

to my point!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on June 02, 2022, 10:07:40 PM
“The military aid the west is providing to Ukraine is changing the dynamic and if Russia doesn’t find a way to address this meaningfully… the conflict will never end.”


scott ritter was a UN Weapons inspector who came out against the Iraq war. He is also, regrettably, known for his habit of soliciting teenage girls online for video sex stuff, for which he has been arrested I believe multiple times. He's also a former marine and kind of knows what he's talking about.

https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/scott-ritters-switcheroo-why-i-radically-changed-my-overall-assessment/ (https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/scott-ritters-switcheroo-why-i-radically-changed-my-overall-assessment/)

Ritter was riding high on the contrarian side till facts on the ground changed: the billions of dollars in weapons the US is sending to Ukraine is having a profound effect.


"Unless Russia is willing to jump across the Dnieper River and head into western Ukraine ... then demilitarization of Ukraine is not going to take place"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on June 14, 2022, 06:59:01 AM
As I feared the sensation of this war is dwindling in people's minds and it's on the news less and less as fresh "stories" come along. Even in here no one has added a post to this thread in over a week.

Well, don't forget Ukrainians are still suffering an invasion of their cities and homes, and still need help. If you can donate anything to refugee relief, it's needed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on June 14, 2022, 07:43:15 AM
It became less urgent to me personally when Putin gave up on Kiev, but yeah, there is a predictable degree of fatigue. The news doesn't change much, or changes very slowly.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on June 14, 2022, 09:00:16 AM
Have you heard from your friend lately, Rev?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on June 14, 2022, 10:28:20 AM
Have you heard from your friend lately, Rev?

Not directly but I check her FB page every now and then, and things seem to have returned to near-normal in Kiev: people are trying to go about their ordinary lives. Yesterday she posted video of a psychedelic jam band a friend of hers is in playing a concert in a courtyard for about 4 people.

She also reposts lots of material from other Ukrainians. She posted one of a resident walking through the streets of Bucha back in February. Eerie, almost the entire town was a field of rubble as far as the eye could see, a few houses still standing, fires still burning, some abandoned tanks in the streets. Surreal.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on June 16, 2022, 09:18:05 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html)

Russia’s Oil Revenue Soars Despite Sanctions, Study Finds

Rising oil prices more than offset a decline in export volumes during the first 100 days of the assault on Ukraine.


so much for that

Quote
Russia earned what is very likely a record 93 billion euros in revenue from exports of oil, gas and coal in the first 100 days of the country’s invasion of Ukraine, according to data analyzed by the Center for Research on Energy and Clean Air, a research organization based in Helsinki, Finland. About two-thirds of those earnings, the equivalent of about $97 billion, came from oil, and most of the remainder from natural gas.

“The current rate of revenue is unprecedented, because prices are unprecedented, and export volumes are close to their highest levels on record,” said Lauri Myllyvirta, an analyst who led the center’s research.


our sanctions are raising the price of oil, which is helping russia.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on June 29, 2022, 11:37:36 PM
https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1619499/putin-russia-will-respond-if-nato-sets-up-infrastructure-in-finland-sweden

Quote
Putin: Russia will respond if NATO sets up infrastructure in Finland, Sweden


turkey lifted its veto after finland and sweden agreed to sell them planes or something


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on June 30, 2022, 01:24:16 PM
It's from last week, but I understand this is what Putin's down to...

https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/obese-retired-russian-general-called-to-fight-in-ukraine-report/


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on July 09, 2022, 02:36:23 PM
fat general story is fake

https://twitter.com/ArbiterOfTweets/status/1545651614253555712
 
turns out its from a celebration of border guards.

"It turns out to be a local ceremony celebrating "Border Guard Day", a holiday for (former) border guards in Russia.

On Yelansky district's official Telegram, we even find a picture of 'Pavel' at the microphone stand giving a military salute...

Our '67-year old general Pavel' turns out to be the 58-year old Ivan Ivanovich Turchin, veteran of both the Russian military and the Border Guard.

He retired in 2011, after 20 years of service at the border in Uzbekistan."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on July 09, 2022, 02:47:20 PM
^wondered about that after googling the name, but I assumed the pictures were old...^


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on July 09, 2022, 03:03:22 PM
Yes Pavel is I guess a first name? I don't know much about Russia

If Putin is calling on retired border guards to serve as battle commanders he really is in deep trouble


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on July 09, 2022, 03:13:43 PM
Yes Pavel is I guess a first name? I don't know much about Russia

If Putin is calling on retired border guards to serve as battle commanders he really is in deep trouble

Been a while with so much going on, but the Pavel I could find at the time was a veteran of Afghanistan & went on to be some sort of diplomat....
He didn't look quite like that, but I'd figured retirement had it's effect in him...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on July 19, 2022, 12:05:08 PM
Sad how people's interest in something fades so fast. The woman at a megachurch near me who handles donations for Ukrainian refugees says she has not had anything from the outside come in specifically earmarked for Ukraine in three weeks now. The church is still sending money itself from its funds, but I suppose no one is thinking about Ukraine anymore enough to donate. Heck, even this thread has gone mostly dormant and sunk to the bottom of the page, and it only takes an outraged thought to bump it forward.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on July 19, 2022, 01:02:32 PM
We are still making donations locally. Just earlier on this week, we took in stuff for roughly 70 Ukrainian refugees that are being housed locally. I've been following the course of the war closely, but not posting much on the thread because I am trying to not accidentally say more than I am allowed to about what is happening out there.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on July 19, 2022, 03:42:08 PM
What can any of us say?  We are watching.  Some pray.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on July 19, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
Adding a few bucks to the prayers might really hit the spot.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on July 19, 2022, 04:41:16 PM
Adding a few bucks to the prayers might really hit the spot.
In my case, adding a few prayers. 
I wish I had all the bucks in the world and could donate more.  That is an excuse.  I don't like excuses.   :bluesad:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on July 19, 2022, 05:02:17 PM
I've been hearing that humanitarian aid hasn't been reaching people on the front lines....
Ukrainian soldiers have been destroying it so the Russians won't get it....

Not really any good sides here, kinda like Ethiopia in the eighties, or Somalia in the nineties, or Syria.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on July 19, 2022, 07:47:01 PM
Corruption plagues already challenged times, so I am sure a lot of aid is being stolen. I know one of the main groups I have given money runs its own facility just inside Poland, and it's made the operation more efficient than if it was in Ukraine. Hopefully a portion of the money that's been spent has reached at least some people. War is a terrible disruption to life, as well as being many other even worse things.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on July 19, 2022, 08:35:01 PM
I've been hearing that humanitarian aid hasn't been reaching people on the front lines....
Ukrainian soldiers have been destroying it so the Russians won't get it....

Not really any good sides here, kinda like Ethiopia in the eighties, or Somalia in the nineties, or Syria.....


I would argue that the side which invaded a peaceful neighbor for the sole purpose of stealing its territory is the BAD side.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on July 19, 2022, 09:22:33 PM
I've been hearing that humanitarian aid hasn't been reaching people on the front lines....
Ukrainian soldiers have been destroying it so the Russians won't get it....

Not really any good sides here, kinda like Ethiopia in the eighties, or Somalia in the nineties, or Syria.....


I would argue that the side which invaded a peaceful neighbor for the sole purpose of stealing its territory is the BAD side.

True, I was simply trying to point out that in the midst of a war, the Ukraine army has still found time to commit atrocities against their own people.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on July 28, 2022, 12:14:35 AM
this thing is never going to end. both sides look at it as existential to win


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on August 22, 2022, 01:44:46 PM
speculation (on the russian side) is that the assassin of Alexander Dugin's daughter is a female member of the Azov Battalion. Azov denies this

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FayMXCSUUAIryCa?format=png&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FayLmEYUUAEKO-_?format=png&name=900x900)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on August 22, 2022, 02:02:21 PM
I'd be surprised if a car used in such a job was then put up for sale. Seems rather amateurish not to destroy it.

I've seen cruder blunders though by some intelligence services though.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on August 22, 2022, 02:08:13 PM
The younger Dugin had singled out the Azov battalion as being "sub human" for attacking civilians so there was some tension there.

https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1561723171086254081 this is video "evidence" (maybe or maybe not) of at least her presence in the area


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on August 22, 2022, 02:11:19 PM
Are they (the Russians) claiming the target of the assassination was the daughter rather than her father? Not being at home and with other stuff going on, I've not been following the news as closely as normal this week, but the articles I had seen suggested it had been the parent the assassins were after and it went wrong when father and daughter switched cars at the last minute.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on August 22, 2022, 11:28:45 PM
Yes I forgot that


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on October 20, 2022, 06:33:58 PM
Family secretly film life in Russian-occupied Ukraine (Kherson)

https://youtu.be/QSaxduOxogU


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 21, 2022, 10:11:16 AM
One issue I have is why isn't Israel selling it's anti-missile tech,  ''iron dome'', to Ukraine?

Also Iranian forces are reportedly to be operating in Ukraine. Maybe Ukraine needs to send a missile into an Iranian oilfield.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on October 21, 2022, 12:39:46 PM
One issue I have is why isn't Israel selling it's anti-missile tech,  ''iron dome'', to Ukraine?




https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/russia-warns-israel-against-sending-weapons-to-ukraine


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 22, 2022, 03:10:42 PM
this thing is never going to end. both sides look at it as existential to win


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on October 24, 2022, 08:58:02 AM
A few months back I posted a link to Natasha's Adventures, the YouTube channel of a young woman who lives in the far east of Russia. I first came across her channel several years ago in better times in her country and was charmed by her.

Well, I just thought I'd note that Natasha's most recent video was a month ago and was her briefly telling the world she was going off to join a large anti-Putin rally planned in the city, and that she fully expected to be sent to prison. In fact she spoke of being harassed and followed by the police for some time.

As I mentioned that was a month ago, she has added no new content to her channel since, and clearly this is worrisome.

There are many courageous people in Russia who oppose Putin and his war, and I hope they see better times as a result of their brave stance.

And wherever she is, I hope Natasha is all right.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on October 24, 2022, 10:23:51 AM
Here's a quick geography lesson. This is the Russian Federation. Only the gray areas are Russia, the rest are all ethnic countries under Russian control.
(https://external-preview.redd.it/TL30M-p8d5lIhsfvVyNiBeqxbzYX16xH1uOSnVcEwM4.png?auto=webp&s=3c94079e352406244994fbf98c0971933a0d2211)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on October 24, 2022, 06:25:22 PM
My Russian Facebook friend says half his family has left the country and he's planning on leaving, too. He writes "I hide 95% of my thoughts."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 25, 2022, 12:18:50 AM
Here's more bad news for bearland...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pdZSv7G10&t=518s

Russia has a real shortage of healthy young people, and putin is basically throwing away tens of thousands of them in this war.


Honest to ghawd, I think Putin may end up having to make  child birth mandatory in Russia. Maybe a lot of people don't remember how that worked for for Czecholslovakia under Nicolae Ceaușescu,  but it created a hell on earth for hundreds of thousands of children and lead to the a violent revolution and execution of the (fatherless boy) who instigated it.

Personally I'm OK with the thought of Putin stretching a rope,  doing the spandau ballet,  twisting in the wind,  etc.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on October 25, 2022, 07:01:28 AM
Here's more bad news for bearland...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pdZSv7G10&t=518s

Russia has a real shortage of healthy young people, and putin is basically throwing away tens of thousands of them in this war.


Honest to ghawd, I think Putin may end up having to make  child birth mandatory in Russia. Maybe a lot of people don't remember how that worked for for Czecholslovakia under Nicolae Ceaușescu,  but it created a hell on earth for hundreds of thousands of children and lead to the a violent revolution and execution of the (fatherless boy) who instigated it.

Personally I'm OK with the thought of Putin stretching a rope,  doing the spandau ballet,  twisting in the wind,  etc.

Yeah it's a mess sven things like that happen.
PS: Romania.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on October 25, 2022, 12:14:28 PM
There's an armed movement for independence in Bashkortostan.....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 25, 2022, 02:39:33 PM
They need to end this thing now before a nuclear war breaks out.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on October 25, 2022, 03:43:03 PM
this thing is never going to end. both sides look at it as existential to win

Not going to happen while that condition exists.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 25, 2022, 08:59:53 PM
The scary thing is that Russia has no good place to go, so it really has nothing to lose by going big, in war terms.

Their population is heading for a crisis, their only major economic leg is gas exports and now Europe wants to find alternative energy sources, they've become a global pariah and have reneged on so much debt they have no real direction to turn to...  There's no light at the end of russia's tunnell. They might feel like crashing the whole world with them. They have fairly little to lose.

Maybe the world ends up paying them what amounts to extortion money because punping a couple trillion into Russia a year is cheaper than them pulling the ultimate ''crazy ivan''. Maybe Russia ends up become a laboratory experiment is rebuilding a failed state that's too big and dangerous to let collapse. Russia becomes a massive experiment in creating a whole new society. Could be fascinating or at least interesting, as in 'interesting times'.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on October 25, 2022, 09:50:24 PM
^I dunno...^
Russia has been selling their natural gas & oil to China, & buying those Kamikaze drones from Iran....

Ukraine wants to buy weapons from Israel, but allies & enemies on both sides have warned against this....

Meanwhile, nearly five thousand US troops have been stationed near the Ukraine border....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 25, 2022, 11:04:20 PM
^ indeed. Remember when Biden said we weren't going to get involved? We're arming Ukraine to the teeth and paying their governments salaries.

Did someone mention "democracy"? How about we let the regions loyal to Russia be a part of it and put this whole thing to bed.

I'm not the world's biggest Obama fan, but in retrospect I'm glad he beat mcCain or all this stuff would probably have happened in 2009. the pentagon knows they have a sucker on the line now


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 29, 2022, 12:22:37 AM
Eventually we're going to have it out on this one again. maybe not tonight but ...at some point.  



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 29, 2022, 05:28:51 AM
From Jeffrey Sachs:

https://twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1585475624537235456



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 29, 2022, 03:29:45 PM
From Jeffrey Sachs:

https://twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1585475624537235456



This sounds like 'gjve Putin what he wants'.  I remember history class, we tried that with Hitler, turned out he wanted everything.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 29, 2022, 11:05:49 PM
you sound more like Morpheus the woke. not every conflict is world war 2. Every foreign policy mind in the last century warned against NATO expansion for the exact reason of what is unfolding now.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on October 29, 2022, 11:18:29 PM
NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. Non-aggressors have nothing to fear.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 30, 2022, 07:38:17 AM

This sounds like 'gjve Putin what he wants'.  I remember history class, we tried that with Hitler, turned out he wanted everything.

It's actually the opposite. That is, the U.S. is the biggest warmonger in the world, with over 800 military bases and installations worldwide and a military budget that's bigger than those of the others combined. It has been using that military to engage in mayhem in many countries for more than fifty years, with coups, assassinations, various forms of destabilization, and outright invasion.

What's ironic is that its most liberal former President actually said that:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

Why is it engaged in warmongering? Here's the reason, explaining Carter's point, and moving on to Sachs:

The U.S. dollar is the global reserve currency. That means most countries need it for trade. It also makes the U.S. incredibly powerful because it can buy things cheap from others but also weak because it makes its own exports expensive for most. This also explains why U.S. borrowing and spending have been soaring since 1982.

At the same time, the U.S. had been fighting to counter the rise of Communism, and that meant propping up dictatorships (like those in Chile and in Iran) and toppling others (like those in Iraq and various South American countries). It also used the same regimes to access natural resources cheap, especially oil.

Part of such strategies involve the military industrial complex, which Sachs talks about. It's an alliance of the government and industry involving development and profiting from armament production and deployment. The U.S. military gets its hardware and the defense industry gets its profits. This is also why the U.S. is the biggest arms dealer in the world.

The problem is that more countries have been growing stronger because they had been saving and exporting, starting with European countries, then Japan, then various Asian countries, and now BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) plus over forty emerging markets, from Turkey to the Philippines. According to Wall Street banks, BRICS and these emerging markets will dominate the world economy during the next few days.

With that, more are using their own currencies for trade, starting their own economic blocs, engaging in bilateral trade, bartering, and even considering special drawing rights from multilateral banks. In relation to this topic, countries like Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore have refused to follow the U.S. and continue to trade with Russia, and recently Saudi Arabia has said the same. Some, like the Philippines, remain scared of the U.S., which is why it recently cancelled a helicopter deal with Russia and lost millions of dollars in downpayments. Meanwhile, not only Russia but China continue to be maintain friendly relations with the Philippines, offering cheap oil and development aid.

This is inevitable but unacceptable for the U.S., as less use of the dollar will no longer allow it to borrow and thus spend more to keep its economy afloat. With that, the U.S. economy will fall apart.

That's why Ukraine was a linchpin, together with others, and the U.S. and its allies had to keep it weak. This explains why "color revolutions" occurred in 2004 onward not only in Ukraine but even in places like Thailand and Hong Kong: protesters and social media influencers were backed by NGOs which in turn wer funded by organizations like the CIA. They were meant to destabilize such countries and thus allow them to be manipulated by the U.S.

Such is the case for Ukraine: as part of and co-founder of the former Soviet Union it actually had one of the most powerful economies among the soviets. But after 1991, it began to de-industrialize as NATO and the EU encouraged it to move away from Russia as a trading partner, and its officials began to meet with Biden, Kerry, and others over deals in oil and gas. Today, it has a per capita GDP that's only slightly higher than that of the Philippines.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 30, 2022, 07:46:27 AM
NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. Non-aggressors have nothing to fear.


One of the organizations that was involved in mayhem in Afghanistan and even Syria was NATO.

The de facto head of NATO is the U.S., which is the main warmonger of the world. Here's an interesting point about that and Ukraine from 2014, years before Russia invaded:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/11/beware-the-worlds-leading-war-monger-and-terrorist-organization/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/11/beware-the-worlds-leading-war-monger-and-terrorist-organization/)

Quote
In Ukraine, the US is backing a thuggish regime, installed through a bloody coup that overthrew a democratically elected government. That regime, since taking power, been using indescriminately shelling cities, and using fascist thugs re-classified as National Guardsmen to slaughter civilians and separatist rebels in the eastern part of the country. It is also becoming increasingly clear, as even the main English-language newspaper in Malaysia is reporting, that this thuggish regime based in Kiev was likely responsible for the deliberate downing of a Malaysian airline which killed all 283 passengers and crew (though the Obama administration continues to claim, on the basis of no evidence, that it was the separatists’ doing).

Apparently, what Russia is doing to Ukraine Ukraine was doing to Russians in the eastern part of the country for years, and backed by the U.S. Many have forgotten this and many of the other U.S.-backed atrocities mentioned in the article.

This is not to say that people should support the Russian invasion, but they should look at the reasons for and what happened before it. Apparently, we're looking at what appears to be more than just "crazy SOBs."



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on October 30, 2022, 08:34:41 AM
Putin couldn't have said it better.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 30, 2022, 04:04:43 PM
I have mixed feelings on Russia fearing America/NATO.

NATO cannot be pureky defensive, there is no such thing as a purely defensive force. I owned a. 410 revolver for home defense as it was short ranged and unlikely to harm anyone in a neighboring house jf I fired at a home invader and missed, but it could still have been used aggressively. So to could nato be used aggressively.

We must remember that president Reagan launched a series of aggressive moves against Russia, includibg having a major Russian oil pipeline sabotaged abd heavily damaged,  harassing Russian submarines abd various economic measures orchestrated against Russia that helped lead to it's collapse, putin remembers those things quite well.

Also America invaded, devastated and conquered Iraq to steal it's oil,  there never was a hint of evidence Iraq was involved with 9 11.

But America is unlikely to start trouble with a desparate nation that has a large nuclear arsenal,  even an aging, decrepit and poorly maintained one.

It must be remembered that nato did not solicit new member states close to Russia, those states solicited nato for admission and one can see why after Putin's seizure of Crimea.

So let's not have a fkame war here over this. There's enough war in the world as is,  yes?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 30, 2022, 04:09:35 PM
Everyone knew if NATO made motions to go into Ukraine that this would happen. They forced his hand. TbWhy does everyone pretend this whole aspect of the war isn't there? Its Creepy
                                                                                               
Even people in World War II could admit that Hitler had some rational interests.  O t hers not obviously


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 30, 2022, 04:13:07 PM
you sound more like Morpheus the woke. not every conflict is world war 2. Every foreign policy mind in the last century warned against NATO expansion for the exact reason of what is unfolding now.

Putin is following Hitler's playbook nearly verbatim,  his conquest of Crimea in 2014, his attack on Ukraine abd his claims that both acts were justified by historical proximity abd 'persecution' of ethnic groups are cut and pasted from Hitler's actions.

I believe there is enough similarity between Hitler and Putin to justify a comparison.

Also nato did not actively solicit new states on Russia's perceived frontier, those states solicited nato after Putin's invasion and conquest of crimea.  Putin has himself to blame for that.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on October 30, 2022, 04:17:25 PM
Everyone knew if NATO made motions to go into Ukraine that this would happen. They forced his hand. TbWhy does everyone pretend this whole aspect of the war isn't there? Its Creepy
                                                                                               
Even people in World War II could admit that Hitler had some rational interests.  O t hers not obviously

What motions did NATO make to move into Ukraine? Every time Ukraine asked to join the answer they got was that they weren't ready to join.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 30, 2022, 05:13:50 PM


You raise a good point. Why hasn't Ukraine been allowed into NATO even now? What is the reasoning behind that? Was Ukraine late with their paperwork?

No it was because we didn't want to provoke Russia.  all of a sudden we have chosen to do so. why?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 30, 2022, 05:16:58 PM
Some typos in there sorry I'm on my Antiquated cell phone


 I don't care if you compare anyone to anyone I just don't get the hitler putin one.   It's also corny


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 30, 2022, 10:16:47 PM
Putin couldn't have said it better.

If this refers to what I shared, then FWIW my sources for what happened in Afghanistan, Syria, and even Iraq include the CNN, BBC, the NYT, and others.

For example, here's a timeline of what happened to democracy in Iraq in the 1950s from the NYT:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-coup-timeline.html (https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-coup-timeline.html)

Apparently, U.S. neoliberals are caught between supporting the U.S. government over other countries while realizing that what they support is no different from what they don't.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 30, 2022, 10:27:54 PM
I have mixed feelings on Russia fearing America/NATO.

NATO cannot be pureky defensive, there is no such thing as a purely defensive force. I owned a. 410 revolver for home defense as it was short ranged and unlikely to harm anyone in a neighboring house jf I fired at a home invader and missed, but it could still have been used aggressively. So to could nato be used aggressively.

We must remember that president Reagan launched a series of aggressive moves against Russia, includibg having a major Russian oil pipeline sabotaged abd heavily damaged,  harassing Russian submarines abd various economic measures orchestrated against Russia that helped lead to it's collapse, putin remembers those things quite well.

Also America invaded, devastated and conquered Iraq to steal it's oil,  there never was a hint of evidence Iraq was involved with 9 11.

But America is unlikely to start trouble with a desparate nation that has a large nuclear arsenal,  even an aging, decrepit and poorly maintained one.

It must be remembered that nato did not solicit new member states close to Russia, those states solicited nato for admission and one can see why after Putin's seizure of Crimea.

So let's not have a fkame war here over this. There's enough war in the world as is,  yes?

Same here. Hobsbawm pointed out that the Cold War was as bloody as the previous world wars, with an estimated 40 million dead worldwide, mostly unarmed civilians from poor countries, and many children and the elderly, as their regions were used as proxy wars by military powers.

It's notable that you mentioned Reagan, because it was the same President who pushed the two ideologies that turned the U.S. into a major military machine: neoconservatism and neoliberalism.

Neoconservatism refers to the belief that "freedom and democracy" must reign, that the U.S. is the sole arbiter and enforcer of that, and that it is exceptional in the sense that whatever it does cannot be considered wrong because it is acting towards that belief.

Hence, Reagan's view of the "evil empire," Bush's view of the "axis of evil," and all the way to Obama's pivot to Asia. Presidents from Reagan onward created the view that the world is divided into good and evil: the U.S. and its friends are good, and everyone else is evil. And those who disagree must be dealt with. As Bush would put it, either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

Neoliberalism refers to the belief that free markets must reign, and that the U.S. must force other countries to be free. That means opening up their countries to trade and more commerce. The belief was eventually used to open up the same countries for exploitation, especially of resources like oil. In addition, in turns out that free markets eventually become the opposite, as those who become richer thanks to it eventually take over the same markets.

This explains Sachs' military industrial complex, which was ironically first raised by Eisenhower back in the 1950s. As some become richer, then they take over, controlling most of the economy and influencing elections. With that, regardless of political party elected officials work for and with them in exchange for credit. That credit, in turn, is used to support a military industrial complex used to bully other countries into submission, which in turn gives economic advantages to the same rich.

This explains what happened in Iraq, and why the U.S. quickly took control of Basra, and used oil from it to supply Israel. It also explains the color revolutions in Ukraine, collusion between pro-U.S. Ukraine officials and U.S. counterparts, etc.





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 30, 2022, 10:38:11 PM

Putin is following Hitler's playbook nearly verbatim,  his conquest of Crimea in 2014, his attack on Ukraine abd his claims that both acts were justified by historical proximity abd 'persecution' of ethnic groups are cut and pasted from Hitler's actions.

I believe there is enough similarity between Hitler and Putin to justify a comparison.

Also nato did not actively solicit new states on Russia's perceived frontier, those states solicited nato after Putin's invasion and conquest of crimea.  Putin has himself to blame for that.

During the early weeks of the invasion, I recall one news outlet interviewing a former U.S. military general about it. He said that if that were the U.S., then the war would have ended on Day One as the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. There is precedence to that given what the U.S. did in Iraq during the first war, and what it did in Afghanistan during its prolonged war. Things like cluster bombs, Hellfires, and MOAB "daisy cutters" were used, i.e., lethal non-nuclear arsenal that killed large numbers of Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

What's ironic about that is that Hitler would have said the same, and that many viewers would not have realized the same.

The problem in this case is that Russia has long-range bombers, missiles, etc., and would have done the same. And yet it didn't. Instead, it occupied the areas where Russians dominate.

So, why is Putin not going "U.S." on Russia or mentioning it only now? Some believe that he fears that if he does, then the U.S. will find reasons to follow through, that even countries like China and those who refuse to follow the U.S., like Saudi Arabia, Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore, will move away from it.

Thus, it's stuck with occupying only part of the Ukraine, i.e., mostly in places where Russians are, and not moving forward. It's also probably betting that more U.S. allies will fold and end up buying oil and gas from it, especially given the recent news about Saudi Arabia refusing to follow the U.S.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 31, 2022, 09:08:09 AM
ISIS are/were more like modern day nazis. Putin is an outmoded post totalitarian leader of a pretty boring seeming country


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 31, 2022, 04:36:02 PM
Well this is actually a nice conversation.

Wonder how Russia's army became a paper bear?  Here are a few videos on the matter.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kAp9lPRbmoc&t=94s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejjKbpXn1S0&t=631s







Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on October 31, 2022, 04:51:11 PM
 Russia's main issue has aways centered on corruption, even under the Soviet union corruption was endemic to levels the American military wohkd never have accepted.

 In one really spectacular case rampant corruption, incompetence and 2 rolls of blank newspaper created a situation that could have triggered WW3.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=67s

 A different Soviet leader may have jumped to the conclusion the west caused this situation and decided to attack first.  Thankfully that did not happen.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on October 31, 2022, 06:14:54 PM
I don't think their army has become a paper bear. There seems to be a ton of casualties on both sides?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 31, 2022, 08:17:16 PM
ISIS are/were more like modern day nazis. Putin is an outmoded post totalitarian leader of a pretty boring seeming country

Indeed. Check out some of Adam Curtis' documentaries. They talk about not only the background of ISIS but even of groups like Al Qaeda and what led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Links to the U.S. are notable.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 31, 2022, 08:28:23 PM
Well this is actually a nice conversation.

Wonder how Russia's army became a paper bear?  Here are a few videos on the matter.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kAp9lPRbmoc&t=94s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejjKbpXn1S0&t=631s


As implied by Sachs and others, the main reason why many military powers look good on paper is because they can't outspend the U.S. That is, the U.S. military budget is larger than those of other military powers combined. The country can do that because the dollar is used as a reserve currency globally, which means more people worldwide need dollars for trade.

With that, the U.S. creates large amounts of dollars as part of debt, and then uses it to spend heavily on the military, etc.

The catch is that that ponzi scheme can only be maintained as long as more people worldwide remain reliant on the dollar. To do that, the U.S. has to use the same military plus onerous foreign policies to keep other countries weak, and thus dependent on rich ones.

Such is the case for Ukraine, which has a per capita GDP that's barely above that of countries like the Philippines and Vietnam. The irony is that more than two decades ago Ukraine was one of the richest republics of the former Soviet Union, with significant levels of manufacturing plus earnings from natural resources. Across the same decades it started de-industrializing, relying on more trade with the EU as it was persuaded to move away from its Russian trading partner, and on services.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on October 31, 2022, 08:31:50 PM
Russia's main issue has aways centered on corruption, even under the Soviet union corruption was endemic to levels the American military wohkd never have accepted.

 In one really spectacular case rampant corruption, incompetence and 2 rolls of blank newspaper created a situation that could have triggered WW3.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=67s

 A different Soviet leader may have jumped to the conclusion the west caused this situation and decided to attack first.  Thankfully that did not happen.




I also recall some more points raised by Curtis, and they may even be seen in his latest documentary on Russia. That is, when Communism fell apart because it was unable to keep up with U.S. neoliberalism, oligarchs took over and tried to use politicians like Putin as puppets. After that, Putin reversed things and took over himself.

What most don't know is that similar has probably been in place in countries like the U.S. One expert interviewed by Pilger for the documentary "The Coming War on China" pointed out, for example, that the difference between China and the U.S. is this: China is ruled by the Communist Party. The U.S. is ruled by Wall Street.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 01, 2022, 12:24:41 PM
This is an older document, but it does explain why Ukraine's economy is the way it is, without going into too much depth.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451

Be warned though, it is fairly long.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 02, 2022, 10:25:37 PM
One thing to remember is Ukraine produces a lot of food sold to Europe, maybe pooty decided to wanted to hold european food supplies as well as oil and gas supplies by the throat.

 Also tens of thousands of Ukrainian people have been,  it's reported,  basically kidnapped into Russia. I wonder why it's being done and why it isn't being talked about much?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2022, 02:03:58 AM
The forced repatriation has been mentioned on the news here as it is a war crime.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 03, 2022, 03:04:28 AM
This is an older document, but it does explain why Ukraine's economy is the way it is, without going into too much depth.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451

Be warned though, it is fairly long.

What Ukraine should have done was follow what Asian countries did, which is to promote nationalist economics. But it was dominated by oligarchs that took advantage of the populace and foreign partners who thought the same.

Interestingly enough, the article implicitly reveals how the West was manipulating Ukraine. That is, the former was never interested in making the latter an economic partner, and was more interested in encouraging it to open up its economy to foreign investments, privatize, drop price controls, and select political leaders amenable to all three views.

That's because all these are part of neoliberalism, which with manipulation of media and co-opting of Ukraine politicians (as seen in the Color Revolutions) allows the U.S. to control weaker countries. When that's no longer possible (which is happening because neoliberal policies are falling apart in many countries), then they employ neoconservatism, which involves a range of intervention, from covert activities to invasion.)

I suspect Putin realized this, which is why he attacked but stopped only with the regions dominated by Russians. He also did not follow the U.S. strategy of using WMDs to bomb countries back to the stone age, and thus end wars quickly.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 03, 2022, 03:07:43 AM
One thing to remember is Ukraine produces a lot of food sold to Europe, maybe pooty decided to wanted to hold european food supplies as well as oil and gas supplies by the throat.

 Also tens of thousands of Ukrainian people have been,  it's reported,  basically kidnapped into Russia. I wonder why it's being done and why it isn't being talked about much?

I won't be surprised to find out that he knew that all along. In addition, I get this feeling that the EU wanted Ukraine to remain weak, in order to access such resources cheap. Meanwhile, U.S. officials could visit, meeting with Ukraine officials who favored the U.S. while others struck deals with Ukraine oligarchs to gain access to the same resources.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2022, 04:04:02 AM
This is an older document, but it does explain why Ukraine's economy is the way it is, without going into too much depth.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451

Be warned though, it is fairly long.

What Ukraine should have done was follow what Asian countries did, which is to promote nationalist economics. But it was dominated by oligarchs that took advantage of the populace and foreign partners who thought the same.

Interestingly enough, the article implicitly reveals how the West was manipulating Ukraine. That is, the former was never interested in making the latter an economic partner, and was more interested in encouraging it to open up its economy to foreign investments, privatize, drop price controls, and select political leaders amenable to all three views.

That's because all these are part of neoliberalism, which with manipulation of media and co-opting of Ukraine politicians (as seen in the Color Revolutions) allows the U.S. to control weaker countries. When that's no longer possible (which is happening because neoliberal policies are falling apart in many countries), then they employ neoconservatism, which involves a range of intervention, from covert activities to invasion.)

I suspect Putin realized this, which is why he attacked but stopped only with the regions dominated by Russians. He also did not follow the U.S. strategy of using WMDs to bomb countries back to the stone age, and thus end wars quickly.



He stopped with the regions dominated by Russian speaking people because his troops are getting their arses kicked. If he could have, he'd have taken the whole thing, but a combination of under prepared troops, too few numbers of men used (standard protocol says he should have used a force three times as large as he did in the initial invasion. You attack with a force three times the size of the defending army, not one more or less equal in size). The only way his invasion plan makes any sense to me is if they'd expected the Ukrainians to not fight back at all, either collapsing early on in the attack or even welcoming the invaders in.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 03, 2022, 04:50:22 AM
The leader of Russia is not the man today that he was in the past, not only owing to personal factors such as the infirmities brought on by age, but because he has ruled by terror within his own government for so long that there are few voices near him speaking either an opposing viewpoint or an unpopular one, which has led to Putin making decisions from a place that hasn't aligned with reality. Yes-men confirming his personal biases created expectations which reality did not support. In short the way Russia's war has unfolded has been contrary to Putin's expectations. For years the Kremlin has been a place out of step with actual reality, and now the world sees it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 03, 2022, 04:49:31 PM
can't believe there is still an appetite for trying to bring "democracy" to russia or something. Our country is 30 trillion dollars in debt, we just got through a massive era defining plague (some of still not quite through it) and now inflation is rampant. I'd prefer to see say 10 million more Americans with health insurance rather than Russians having the right to a speedy trial or something. they seem mostly content now and the ones who aren't are totally free to leave.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 03, 2022, 05:45:51 PM
The leader of Russia is not the man today that he was in the past, not only owing to personal factors such as the infirmities brought on by age, but because he has ruled by terror within his own government for so long that there are few voices near him speaking either an opposing viewpoint or an unpopular one, which has led to Putin making decisions from a place that hasn't aligned with reality. Yes-men confirming his personal biases created expectations which reality did not support. In short the way Russia's war has unfolded has been contrary to Putin's expectations. For years the Kremlin has been a place out of step with actual reality, and now the world sees it.

I've heard the same thing, and that pooty is now killing his own close supporters for lying to him even tho he bubbled himself with them and they only told him good things while they were gutting the Russian military and much of it's industry.

Ironically this is one area where he's done pretty much the opposite of Hitler, because poots surrounded himself with former KGB he who he saw as 'loyal' (HAW!) to himbecausethey told him he was right while they gutted Russia economically and industrially.

Hitler had generals who told him the damn truth about how incredibly wrong he was strategically and he ignored them, then fired them when his insane doomed strategies failed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 03, 2022, 09:07:07 PM
you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 04, 2022, 01:31:28 AM
He stopped with the regions dominated by Russian speaking people because his troops are getting their arses kicked. If he could have, he'd have taken the whole thing, but a combination of under prepared troops, too few numbers of men used (standard protocol says he should have used a force three times as large as he did in the initial invasion. You attack with a force three times the size of the defending army, not one more or less equal in size). The only way his invasion plan makes any sense to me is if they'd expected the Ukrainians to not fight back at all, either collapsing early on in the attack or even welcoming the invaders in.

It's probably because he's not using WMDs, e.g., bombers and missiles. As I pointed out earlier, I recall a former U.S. military general interviewed by one outlet during the early weeks of the war, and he pointed out that if that were the U.S. the war would have ended on Day One. That's because the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. Given such circumstances, force size won't matter. If you don't believe me, check out what happened to the Iraqis during the first Gulf War.

Another problem is that unlike the U.S., not only Russia but even China are not prepared for war. The U.S. has been able to hone its war skills by attacking multiple countries, all weak ones, for decades:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

It can do that because unlike Russia and even China it has over 800 military bases and installations worldwide, several encircling Russia and China and others used for decades to set up schools to train right-wing death squads in South America (e.g., the School of the Americas), help local military forces set up low intensity conflict in others (e.g., hamletting, zoning, and search-and-destroy operations coupled with "winning hearts and minds"), etc. Those were paid for using the biggest military budget in the world (it's bigger than those of the other military powers combined), and the costs passed on to the U.S. public who mostly can't even point out the countries that the U.S. invaded on a map, or even give the basic facts about major wars in which their country participated in, from the Revolution to the Civil War to even both World Wars. That's why they appear to be divided about this, with Biden's low ratings and their complaints that financial aid that should be going to them are going to Ukraine.

Why, then, did Russia decide to attack Ukraine, did not follow the U.S. in using WMDs, and held only areas dominated by Russians? Here are my guesses:

1. They know that the U.S. and NATO won't retaliate as long as they don't go beyond those territories, and they can justify the invasion that way. Also, they believe that if they go too far then many countries will stop trading with them, especially China.

2. If the U.S. ups military aid to Ukraine, then the U.S. public will complain, arguing that that aid should be going to them, and this will weaken Biden even more. This can also be seen in light of high levels of divisiveness in the states, with Biden's low ratings, etc.

3. They are relying on the U.S. (which reportedly only has a few weeks of diesel left) and the EU to weaken in their stance as they begin to realize that trade, especially over oil and gas, has to resume. Their own allies, including Israel and Saudi Arabia, raised that early on. OTOH, the U.S. can probably do both, i.e., send more troops (even though recruitment in their military is plummeting as most U.S. youths are not interested or qualified to serve in the military, and according to the military itself, in most careers due to obesity, illnesses, low test scores, mental problems, and vices) or provide more money while businesses are allowed to continue deals with both Ukraine and Russia.

4. They probably think that more are now aware of what the U.S. was doing to and with Ukraine from 2004 onward, e.g., the manipulated revolutions (also attempted in Thailand and HK), i.e., covert funding of pro-U.S. protesters and social media, the U.S. media which has been dishing out pro-war sentiments against countries that go against U.S. ideals of democracy, and all part of neoconservative and neoliberal views promoted by each Presidency since Reagan.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 04, 2022, 01:37:20 AM
The leader of Russia is not the man today that he was in the past, not only owing to personal factors such as the infirmities brought on by age, but because he has ruled by terror within his own government for so long that there are few voices near him speaking either an opposing viewpoint or an unpopular one, which has led to Putin making decisions from a place that hasn't aligned with reality. Yes-men confirming his personal biases created expectations which reality did not support. In short the way Russia's war has unfolded has been contrary to Putin's expectations. For years the Kremlin has been a place out of step with actual reality, and now the world sees it.

The same is probably also happening in the states, with Biden's low ratings and more economic problems in store. But it's not just Biden: most U.S. Presidents have been following Wall Street for decades, which controls the U.S. economy and wants the government to make sure that the petrodollar is kept propped up.

Meanwhile, I get this feeling that Russia was not planning to take over Ukraine and instead occupy only parts of it, especially the eastern part and Crimea. It's possible that if they took control of the whole area they would lose support from most countries, which today remain neutral, wanting to maintain trade with both Ukraine and Russia.

Before all that, I sense that the U.S. was trying to maintain its grand chessboard strategy of encircling Russia and China, which is why it needed to manipulate Ukraine. It was also trying similar with Thailand and HK but didn't succeed.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 04, 2022, 01:44:17 AM
can't believe there is still an appetite for trying to bring "democracy" to russia or something. Our country is 30 trillion dollars in debt, we just got through a massive era defining plague (some of still not quite through it) and now inflation is rampant. I'd prefer to see say 10 million more Americans with health insurance rather than Russians having the right to a speedy trial or something. they seem mostly content now and the ones who aren't are totally free to leave.

I was thinking the same thing. The idea of bringing democracy to other countries was put to the forefront by Reagan, through neoconservatism (the belief that the U.S. should use its military to force other countries to be free, but in the process prop up pro-U.S. governments) and neoliberalism (the belief that countries should force open their economies in the name of freedom, and in the proces be open for exploitation by stronger economies, like that of the U.S.). That's why it has to spend a lot on its military and has to make sure that most countries rely on the dollar for trade. Otherwise, the heavy borrowing and spending scheme (which is also needed to support high military costs) that started growing significantly in the early 1980s could no longer continue.

About the latter point, the U.S. now has total debts of something like $70 trillion, and it has in addition almost $200 trillion of unfunded liabilities. The only way it can even cover the interest on that debt is to borrow more money. That, in turn, can only take place if most countries worldwide remain weak and continue to rely on the dollar.

Meanwhile, many of these weak countries have become stronger economically and are now answering back at the U.S.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 04, 2022, 04:55:22 AM
you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.

Well, les, haven't you spent the last year in here going against conventional thought, posting as if you have some special insight into Putin's brain and inner circle, saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO? That seems to be a minority view, to say the least, and kinda makes you callin' the kettle, you know? What I posted actually was an informed opinion that had been told to me by someone who actually analyzes the world situation for a living, and I thought his insights were interesting enough to share. If he's a "LARP-er" he's one who gets paid a lot to be one. In the end what's true of Russia will be true despite what we armchair generals post on a message board. (Also, remember, counter ideas, don't attack a person.)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2022, 09:26:41 AM
you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.

Well, les, haven't you spent the last year in here going against conventional thought, posting as if you have some special insight into Putin's brain and inner circle, saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO? That seems to be a minority view, to say the least, and kinda makes you callin' the kettle, you know? What I posted actually was an informed opinion that had been told to me by someone who actually analyzes the world situation for a living, and I thought his insights were interesting enough to share. If he's a "LARP-er" he's one who gets paid a lot to be one. In the end what's true of Russia will be true despite what we armchair generals post on a message board. (Also, remember, counter ideas, don't attack a person.)

ER, you beat me to it, although I'd say military expert rather than Russia (and since I have over 2 decades of experience in that field, I think I don't have to LARP it either).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 04, 2022, 02:39:06 PM
Quote
saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO? That seems to be a minority view, to say the least,

I can absolutely prove my point of view pointing to dozens of experts from George kennan and henry Kissinger to  putins own public statements himself. which i've done repeatedly in this thread.

here is a massive list of quotes from foreign policy experts saying the same exact thing I'm saying https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592


the idea that people would put any credence in state department talking points after iraq is incredible to me. and un American. we are supposed to be a nation that learns from its mistakes and applies critical thinking to things



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2022, 06:21:08 PM
Makes you wonder why Putin was so keen to join NATO himself and why at Russia's request a pathway for his country to join was laid out.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 04, 2022, 09:12:25 PM
Maybe because he thought the "they Live" esque worldwide elites actually wanted peace?

Look, russia is a crappy country. So was Iraq. crappy countries have bad presidents and terrible laws. The US is the best country but we shouldn't ATTACK crappy ones, we should lead by example. What has isolating Cuba done but prolong the ridiculous system of socialism? having free trade w/ them would have ended all that decades ago. We're on the wrong path with all this stuff , Alex.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 05, 2022, 12:24:52 AM
Quote
saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO? That seems to be a minority view, to say the least,


I can absolutely prove my point of view pointing to dozens of experts from George kennan and henry Kissinger to  putins own public statements himself. which i've done repeatedly in this thread.

here is a massive list of quotes from foreign policy experts saying the same exact thing I'm saying [url]https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592[/url] ([url]https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592[/url])


the idea that people would put any credence in state department talking points after iraq is incredible to me. and un American. we are supposed to be a nation that learns from its mistakes and applies critical thinking to things




Thanks for sharing that. I was going to mention John Mearsheimer in a subsequent post. His 2015 lecture is notable:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 05, 2022, 12:51:49 AM
Maybe because he thought the "they Live" esque worldwide elites actually wanted peace?

Look, russia is a crappy country. So was Iraq. crappy countries have bad presidents and terrible laws. The US is the best country but we shouldn't ATTACK crappy ones, we should lead by example. What has isolating Cuba done but prolong the ridiculous system of socialism? having free trade w/ them would have ended all that decades ago. We're on the wrong path with all this stuff , Alex.

I'd like to add to these points:

Some say that in order to ensure that its economy continues to grow, the U.S. needs to be engaged in conflict in one place or the other; in short, perpetual warfare. That's because it invests heavily in the defense industry and the military, and such investments and costs cannot be justified unless they are used. Of course, following what military powers did throughout the Cold War conflict should involve proxy wars, i.e., those who are powerful using weaker countries as battlegrounds. This minimizes the number of U.S. lives lost.

The idea that the U.S. is the best country is part of exceptionalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

which argues that all countries should be like the U.S. by promoting individual liberties, democracy, and free markets.

It's connected to neoconservatism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

which argues that the U.S. should not be pacifist but aggressive in defending those principles, meaning it should use foreign policies and military force to make countries follow what the U.S. promotes. Given that, its military force obviously has to be very powerful, which is why the country has to take on tremendous amounts of debt (passed on to the public) to pay for that military.

It's also connected to neoliberalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

which calls for all countries to be free economically. That unwittingly allows the U.S. and other rich countries to exploit the natural resources and cheap labor of these countries.

A leader known to promote exceptionalism through both neoconservatism and neoliberalism was Ronald Reagan. He was joined by Margaret Thatcher and others, and later subsequent Presidents from both political parties did the same.

What's not mentioned is the actual reason for exceptionalism, and that has to do with the use of the dollar as a reserve currency. That is, all countries need to use the dollar for trade because their own currencies might not be stable. At the same time, this makes the U.S. immensely powerful because with the same dollar it creates through debt it can buy many things cheap worldwide. The same dollar creation can also be used to prop up the "American dream" or the "American way of life," which is connected to exceptionalism itself: the U.S. is the greatest country in the world because its citizens are rich and happy, and it can lead all of the other countries so that they can have the same. But to do that, they have to open up their economies for trade (which involves using the dollar for the same) and with that have governments that promote freedom.

And there's the connection: by forcing countries to be free, they actually become more dependent on the U.S., which the U.S. needs in order to create more credit it needs to prop up the "American dream" and high military costs. The same military together with foreign policies are used to make sure that these countries toe the line.

But how to convince the U.S. public about that? Media has to show that all other countries are at best crappy, especially those who question it. Only the U.S. is the best and everyone should aspire to be like it. Those who don't are the enemy.

That's why Reagan referred to the Soviet Union and its allies as the "evil empire." Later, Dubya referred to the "axis of evil." In both case, an unconditional choice is involved: either you are with the U.S., or you are for the terrorists. There is no middle ground.

This also explains why after the Vietnam War mainstream media eventually became the cheerleaders of the government, and both funded by Wall Street. Movies, TV shows, and other media depicted those who went against the U.S. as the enemy. That way, the public would never question what the government was doing.

Another thing that's barely mentioned is the point that the U.S. received support from these weak countries not only by destabilizing or invading them but also later propping up regimes that are friendly to the U.S., including those of Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, and others.

Finally, about Cuba, I found out that even with the trade embargo imposed by the U.S. it managed to make its economy grow by 400 pct the last two decades, from $25 billion in 1998 to $100 billion by 2018. That's equivalent to a growth rate of around 10 pct per annum, much higher than U.S.-style democracies like the Philippines could accomplish. Also, it surprisingly has many factors that are as good as or exceed that of the U.S., from low infant mortality rates to high levels of education to quite good health care to numbers of doctors and scientists engaged in science and technology. In fact, it appears to do better overall than pro-U.S. Philippines.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2022, 03:13:22 AM
Maybe because he thought the "they Live" esque worldwide elites actually wanted peace?

Look, russia is a crappy country. So was Iraq. crappy countries have bad presidents and terrible laws. The US is the best country but we shouldn't ATTACK crappy ones, we should lead by example. What has isolating Cuba done but prolong the ridiculous system of socialism? having free trade w/ them would have ended all that decades ago. We're on the wrong path with all this stuff , Alex.

I agree with you that the US policy towards Cuba is redundant. I agree that you shouldn't just attack a country because it is crappy. The rest of what you say, not so much.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 05, 2022, 12:44:45 PM
I wish there was as much passion for helping those displaced by this war (who are facing a hard winter) as there is for debating the conflict over a keyboard.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 05, 2022, 02:34:23 PM
Ralfy - ehhh even raul Castro has admitted that besides of the sanctions Cuba has serious problems. socialism is inherently a limiting system, really no place for ambitious sort of people. Like most of the countries down there, they have very very nice beaches and make most of their $$ that way. Providing absurd luxury to fatcat capitalists from all over the world!



So much of what we've see since 2016 is a reaction to trump and the fear that he will steer the whole world into an iceburg.  Meanwhile, Biden has us back in the cold war and on the edge of a nuclear disaster.

Biden is the psycho everyone thought Trump was gonna be




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 05, 2022, 09:54:39 PM

I agree with you that the US policy towards Cuba is redundant. I agree that you shouldn't just attack a country because it is crappy. The rest of what you say, not so much.

The rest explains U.S. policy towards Cuba, as it belongs to the same set of policies used to coerce weaker countries in other parts of the world.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 05, 2022, 10:01:00 PM
Ralfy - ehhh even raul Castro has admitted that besides of the sanctions Cuba has serious problems. socialism is inherently a limiting system, really no place for ambitious sort of people. Like most of the countries down there, they have very very nice beaches and make most of their $$ that way. Providing absurd luxury to fatcat capitalists from all over the world!



So much of what we've see since 2016 is a reaction to trump and the fear that he will steer the whole world into an iceburg.  Meanwhile, Biden has us back in the cold war and on the edge of a nuclear disaster.

Biden is the psycho everyone thought Trump was gonna be




If it's a limiting system, then Cuba should have experienced poor economic growth. Instead, it experienced the opposite: an average rate of 10 pct per annum, which allowed it to quadruple the size of its economy.

Interestingly enough, similar took place in Asian countries which promoted socialist policies like protectionism and national economic planning. It might have to do with the point that they were promoted together with heavy infrastructure development needed for manufacturing and even mechanized agriculture.

In contrast, countries like the Philippines did the opposite as it copied the U.S. The result is an ave. economic growth rate that's a fraction of what the others experienced.

Finally, what's interesting about Trump is that he tried to make peace with North Korea, was going to do the same for Yemen, was more interested in trade deals with China, and wanted to decrease military expenditures.

The problem is that the military industrial complex, which Sachs was talking about, and which has been backed by every U.S. President, and coupled with exceptionalism by Presidents from Reagan onward, does not support that.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 06, 2022, 03:27:04 PM
marx believed in free trade, protectionism is a FASCIST policy if anything, though every country practices some form of it

at any rate this is off the topic


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 06, 2022, 07:07:09 PM
marx believed in free trade, protectionism is a FASCIST policy if anything, though every country practices some form of it

at any rate this is off the topic

If by free trade you mean free market capitalism, I think he wasn't.

I think protectionism is socialist when implemented by democracies. It is fascist when implemented by fascist regimes.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on November 06, 2022, 07:25:58 PM
The evening nooz is now saying that the white house is trying to get Zelenskyy to warm up to the idea of peace, but he has never been interested in it.....
It seems I recall Zelenskyy offering to secede occupied territories in exchange for peace, but Putin wouldn't consider it...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 06, 2022, 11:55:25 PM
ralfy- he also opposed tariffs. he was an economist



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2022, 09:55:40 AM
Sorry, but I missed this reply earlier.

He stopped with the regions dominated by Russian speaking people because his troops are getting their arses kicked. If he could have, he'd have taken the whole thing, but a combination of under prepared troops, too few numbers of men used (standard protocol says he should have used a force three times as large as he did in the initial invasion. You attack with a force three times the size of the defending army, not one more or less equal in size). The only way his invasion plan makes any sense to me is if they'd expected the Ukrainians to not fight back at all, either collapsing early on in the attack or even welcoming the invaders in.
It's probably because he's not using WMDs, e.g., bombers and missiles. As I pointed out earlier, I recall a former U.S. military general interviewed by one outlet during the early weeks of the war, and he pointed out that if that were the U.S. the war would have ended on Day One. That's because the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. Given such circumstances, force size won't matter. If you don't believe me, check out what happened to the Iraqis during the first Gulf War.

Think you'll find the Russians are using both bombers and missiles. Try googling Russian missile attacks, and Russian aircraft strikes. Did you know that in NATO exercises where they simulate a war against Russia, they leave out modern air defences, because if they include them, the US airforce gets annihilated? You've not faced a country with modern air defences, so bombing them into the stone age may not be as effective as you might think. Especially not if the enemy is spread out with smaller-scale actions (platoon-sized clashes) rather than big armies clashing, as seems to be the case in Ukraine, rather than clumped together as they were in Iraq. You have two very different situations here, comparing the two scenarios is like comparing apples and DVDs. Force size does matter a lot, although not perhaps in the way you were thinking.

While there isn't an official definition, the phrase WMD tend to refer to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Unless you count depleted uranium rounds used to take out armoured vehicles, to the best of my knowledge they were never against Iraq's though. They don't tend to be used to refer to conventional bombs or missiles (not since around the end of World War 2 anyway). I am assuming you were meaning conventional, high-explosive weapons though here, rather than accusing US and allied forces of committing war crimes.

Even if the forces are all clumped up all nice and close together for you to bomb them, and you get past their air defences, yeah you might win a conventional war on day 1. What happens then? Well, then you get caught up in a much different affair. The enemy adapts and fights guerilla style. As we've seen in recent years, the US does not handle unconventional warfare very well. Might take a decade or two, but eventually, you lose. Given how both Iraq and Afghanistan ended up I am surprised to hear of a general saying they'd have won the fight in the first day. If it really was that simple, both those conflicts should have ended up totally differently.

Just some food for thought.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 07, 2022, 10:04:34 AM
Sorry, but I missed this reply earlier.

He stopped with the regions dominated by Russian speaking people because his troops are getting their arses kicked. If he could have, he'd have taken the whole thing, but a combination of under prepared troops, too few numbers of men used (standard protocol says he should have used a force three times as large as he did in the initial invasion. You attack with a force three times the size of the defending army, not one more or less equal in size). The only way his invasion plan makes any sense to me is if they'd expected the Ukrainians to not fight back at all, either collapsing early on in the attack or even welcoming the invaders in.
It's probably because he's not using WMDs, e.g., bombers and missiles. As I pointed out earlier, I recall a former U.S. military general interviewed by one outlet during the early weeks of the war, and he pointed out that if that were the U.S. the war would have ended on Day One. That's because the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. Given such circumstances, force size won't matter. If you don't believe me, check out what happened to the Iraqis during the first Gulf War.

Think you'll find the Russians are using both bombers and missiles. Try googling Russian missile attacks, and Russian aircraft strikes. Did you know that in NATO exercises where they simulate a war against Russia, they leave out modern air defences, because if they include them, the US airforce gets annihilated? You've not faced a country with modern air defences, so bombing them into the stone age may not be as effective as you might think. Especially not if the enemy is spread out with smaller-scale actions (platoon-sized clashes) rather than big armies clashing, as seems to be the case in Ukraine, rather than clumped together as they were in Iraq. You have two very different situations here, comparing the two scenarios is like comparing apples and DVDs. Force size does matter a lot, although not perhaps in the way you were thinking.

While there isn't an official definition, the phrase WMD tend to refer to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Unless you count depleted uranium rounds used to take out armoured vehicles, to the best of my knowledge they were never against Iraq's though. They don't tend to be used to refer to conventional bombs or missiles (not since around the end of World War 2 anyway). I am assuming you were meaning conventional, high-explosive weapons though here, rather than accusing US and allied forces of committing war crimes.

Even if the forces are all clumped up all nice and close together for you to bomb them, and you get past their air defences, yeah you might win a conventional war on day 1. What happens then? Well, then you get caught up in a much different affair. The enemy adapts and fights guerilla style. As we've seen in recent years, the US does not handle unconventional warfare very well. Might take a decade or two, but eventually, you lose. Given how both Iraq and Afghanistan ended up I am surprised to hear of a general saying they'd have won the fight in the first day. If it really was that simple, both those conflicts should have ended up totally differently.

Just some food for thought.



Nice to have input from someone with actual knowledge of and experience in these matters.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 07, 2022, 08:37:57 PM
ralfy- he also opposed tariffs. he was an economist



He opposed tariffs because he was against the idea of nation. For him, it's a bourgeois concept created so that the rich could maintain control over the proletariat.

What he wanted was world Communism, with no nations. Hence, "workers of the world, unite."

That's not the same as opposing tariffs to encourage free trade, which the bourgeois also want because it allows for more business, and thus makes them richer.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 07, 2022, 08:38:39 PM
The evening nooz is now saying that the white house is trying to get Zelenskyy to warm up to the idea of peace, but he has never been interested in it.....
It seems I recall Zelenskyy offering to secede occupied territories in exchange for peace, but Putin wouldn't consider it...

Might make sense if more Americans are suffering economically and complaining that the aid for Ukraine should go to them.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 07, 2022, 08:51:01 PM


Think you'll find the Russians are using both bombers and missiles. Try googling Russian missile attacks, and Russian aircraft strikes. Did you know that in NATO exercises where they simulate a war against Russia, they leave out modern air defences, because if they include them, the US airforce gets annihilated? You've not faced a country with modern air defences, so bombing them into the stone age may not be as effective as you might think. Especially not if the enemy is spread out with smaller-scale actions (platoon-sized clashes) rather than big armies clashing, as seems to be the case in Ukraine, rather than clumped together as they were in Iraq. You have two very different situations here, comparing the two scenarios is like comparing apples and DVDs. Force size does matter a lot, although not perhaps in the way you were thinking.

While there isn't an official definition, the phrase WMD tend to refer to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Unless you count depleted uranium rounds used to take out armoured vehicles, to the best of my knowledge they were never against Iraq's though. They don't tend to be used to refer to conventional bombs or missiles (not since around the end of World War 2 anyway). I am assuming you were meaning conventional, high-explosive weapons though here, rather than accusing US and allied forces of committing war crimes.

Even if the forces are all clumped up all nice and close together for you to bomb them, and you get past their air defences, yeah you might win a conventional war on day 1. What happens then? Well, then you get caught up in a much different affair. The enemy adapts and fights guerilla style. As we've seen in recent years, the US does not handle unconventional warfare very well. Might take a decade or two, but eventually, you lose. Given how both Iraq and Afghanistan ended up I am surprised to hear of a general saying they'd have won the fight in the first day. If it really was that simple, both those conflicts should have ended up totally differently.

Just some food for thought.




I don't think they're using it on a scale that the U.S. would, especially given the U.S. did in Iraq and Afghanistan, e.g., MOABs (mother-of-all-bombs or "daisy cutters") which some say killed large numbers of civilians. Otherwise, as that former U.S. general puts it, the war would have ended quickly.

In addition, such use of WMDs (that refers to any weapon that does extensive damage, including explosives) following what the U.S. did would not require the use of large numbers of personnel. That's why the U.S. managed to take control of various countries quickly.

Finally, I think the general was referring to invasion rather than occupation. This explains why, as you put it, the U.S. struggled in the latter. For example, in Iraq, it ended up coming up with a weird coalition of Saddam's former men which they supported in the past to counter Islamic fundamentalist, their own puppets, and the same Islamic fundamentalists who hate them. The whole thing eventually fell apart.

Similarly, in Afghanistan, they tried to form some coalition consisting of their own stooges, Northern Alliance rapists and drug pushers, and Islamic fundamentalists stemming from mujahedeen which they supported to counter the Soviets and eventually turned on them. That fell apart, too.

Given these, perhaps we're seeing similar in Ukraine, following what was shared in this lecture and in others:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

That is, another attempt at regime change following over five decades of similar, to prop up a pro-U.S. government and then use that to exploit the country strategically and even economically.

That fell apart when Russian attacked but stopped at regions controlled by Russians. Will it follow through and copy the U.S. by trying to occupy more of the country?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 07, 2022, 09:02:04 PM

Nice to have input from someone with actual knowledge of and experience in these matters.


There's an interesting set of quotes from foreign policy experts on subject shared here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689325.html#msg689325 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689325.html#msg689325)

Here's the link:

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592 (https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592)

Interestingly enough, several of them are Cold War strategists, and come from left and right ideologies, plus former politicians and government officials.

Some of the notable ones for me are uni-based ones, like Noam Chomsky and John Mearsheimer. The latter is mentioned here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689410.html#msg689410 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689410.html#msg689410)

For Chomsky, I'd like to share the ff. asides, as they may give us some perspective on what Jeffrey Sachs said here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689145.html#msg689145 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689145.html#msg689145)

From Chomsky:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRbnPA3fd5U#)

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXtgq0Nhsc#)

I think the gist is that the military industrial complex coupled with the use of the dollar as a reserve currency, and even the petrodollar, is likely what underlies U.S. foreign policies, including what happened to Ukraine from 2004 to the Russian invasion.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 08, 2022, 12:15:22 AM
Quote
That's not the same as opposing tariffs to encourage free trade, which the bourgeois also want because it allows for more business, and thus makes them richer.


its exactly the same . man


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2022, 02:19:24 AM


Think you'll find the Russians are using both bombers and missiles. Try googling Russian missile attacks, and Russian aircraft strikes. Did you know that in NATO exercises where they simulate a war against Russia, they leave out modern air defences, because if they include them, the US airforce gets annihilated? You've not faced a country with modern air defences, so bombing them into the stone age may not be as effective as you might think. Especially not if the enemy is spread out with smaller-scale actions (platoon-sized clashes) rather than big armies clashing, as seems to be the case in Ukraine, rather than clumped together as they were in Iraq. You have two very different situations here, comparing the two scenarios is like comparing apples and DVDs. Force size does matter a lot, although not perhaps in the way you were thinking.

While there isn't an official definition, the phrase WMD tend to refer to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Unless you count depleted uranium rounds used to take out armoured vehicles, to the best of my knowledge they were never against Iraq's though. They don't tend to be used to refer to conventional bombs or missiles (not since around the end of World War 2 anyway). I am assuming you were meaning conventional, high-explosive weapons though here, rather than accusing US and allied forces of committing war crimes.

Even if the forces are all clumped up all nice and close together for you to bomb them, and you get past their air defences, yeah you might win a conventional war on day 1. What happens then? Well, then you get caught up in a much different affair. The enemy adapts and fights guerilla style. As we've seen in recent years, the US does not handle unconventional warfare very well. Might take a decade or two, but eventually, you lose. Given how both Iraq and Afghanistan ended up I am surprised to hear of a general saying they'd have won the fight in the first day. If it really was that simple, both those conflicts should have ended up totally differently.

Just some food for thought.




I don't think they're using it on a scale that the U.S. would, especially given the U.S. did in Iraq and Afghanistan, e.g., MOABs (mother-of-all-bombs or "daisy cutters") which some say killed large numbers of civilians. Otherwise, as that former U.S. general puts it, the war would have ended quickly.

In addition, such use of WMDs (that refers to any weapon that does extensive damage, including explosives) following what the U.S. did would not require the use of large numbers of personnel. That's why the U.S. managed to take control of various countries quickly.

Finally, I think the general was referring to invasion rather than occupation. This explains why, as you put it, the U.S. struggled in the latter. For example, in Iraq, it ended up coming up with a weird coalition of Saddam's former men which they supported in the past to counter Islamic fundamentalist, their own puppets, and the same Islamic fundamentalists who hate them. The whole thing eventually fell apart.

Similarly, in Afghanistan, they tried to form some coalition consisting of their own stooges, Northern Alliance rapists and drug pushers, and Islamic fundamentalists stemming from mujahedeen which they supported to counter the Soviets and eventually turned on them. That fell apart, too.

Given these, perhaps we're seeing similar in Ukraine, following what was shared in this lecture and in others:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#[/url])

That is, another attempt at regime change following over five decades of similar, to prop up a pro-U.S. government and then use that to exploit the country strategically and even economically.

That fell apart when Russian attacked but stopped at regions controlled by Russians. Will it follow through and copy the U.S. by trying to occupy more of the country?



I don't have time at the moment (just about to go to work), but I will try and give you an in-depth answer later.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 08, 2022, 07:43:42 PM
Quote from: lester1/2jr link=topic=157145.msg689428#msg689428
its exactly the same . man

Of course, not. Marx argued that nationalism is a bourgeois concept needed to maintain private property. He wanted private property abolished and the formation of a dictatorship of the proletariat, after which all would combined and form world communism.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 09, 2022, 01:28:31 PM
you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.
Well, les, haven't you spent the last year in here going against conventional thought, posting as if you have some special insight into Putin's brain and inner circle, saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO?
 
If this is true, I agree with Lester that POO-TIN felt threatened by NATO.  I also think Russia is out of touch and POO-TIN is surrounded by Yes-men.  Other than unwarranted swipes, don't we all agree? 





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 09, 2022, 02:18:28 PM
Russia is a country ran by paranoia, justified paranoia.

Napoleon invaded Russia abd even reached Moscow. His arny caused massive destruction and death in Russia, abd Russian children are raised to know that. After WW1 British and France attacked Russia to overturn tge Bolshevik revolution and used poison gas on Russians before being driven out of Russia.  In ww2 the Nazis invaded Russia and a huge part of Russia's population were killed, like 20 million according to some estimates.

Right after ww2 American general Patton starting shooting his big mouth off about how America should rebuild the Nazi army to go in and 'finish off russia''.

Russia has had a brutal history, and always ruled by the most brutal and ruthless. We must remember that. Putin's politics consist of murdering any challenger to his throne. Russia is not like any western country, it's a kratocracy.





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 09, 2022, 02:33:55 PM
you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.
Well, les, haven't you spent the last year in here going against conventional thought, posting as if you have some special insight into Putin's brain and inner circle, saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO?
 
If this is true, I agree with Lester that POO-TIN felt threatened by NATO.  I also think Russia is out of touch and POO-TIN is surrounded by Yes-men.  Other than unwarranted swipes, don't we all agree? 





Putin is "threatened by NATO," certainly, it's dampened many of his expansionist goals. And, yes, Putin is surrounded by fearful sycophants and the like-minded. So, yes.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 09, 2022, 03:12:40 PM
If there's one thing Putin knows its SURVIVAL. The idea that he apropos of nothing decided to invade Ukraine for his own glory doesn't make sense. If that was his attitude he would have been gone decades ago

Countries like Russia, Iran, and China know the US is constantly bearing down on them and they move very carefully and deliberately


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 09, 2022, 06:29:53 PM

If this is true, I agree with Lester that POO-TIN felt threatened by NATO.  I also think Russia is out of touch and POO-TIN is surrounded by Yes-men.  Other than unwarranted swipes, don't we all agree? 



More likely by moves from NATO, the EU, and the U.S. from 2004 onward. The details are, I think, given in this 2015 lecture:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 09, 2022, 06:37:36 PM
Russia is a country ran by paranoia, justified paranoia.

Napoleon invaded Russia abd even reached Moscow. His arny caused massive destruction and death in Russia, abd Russian children are raised to know that. After WW1 British and France attacked Russia to overturn tge Bolshevik revolution and used poison gas on Russians before being driven out of Russia.  In ww2 the Nazis invaded Russia and a huge part of Russia's population were killed, like 20 million according to some estimates.

Right after ww2 American general Patton starting shooting his big mouth off about how America should rebuild the Nazi army to go in and 'finish off russia''.

Russia has had a brutal history, and always ruled by the most brutal and ruthless. We must remember that. Putin's politics consist of murdering any challenger to his throne. Russia is not like any western country, it's a kratocracy.






Actually, many military powers are, including the U.S. This list started with Wounded Knee, but its first "Vietnam" was the Philippines, where part was turned into a "howling wilderness":

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/ (https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/)

The most prominent ones include what happened during the last two decades. Throughout that time, many did not choose to "stand up" to them, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Yemen.

This idea should not surprise anyone. According to Hobsbawm, the Cold War led to over 40 million deaths, and involved mostly poor, unarmed civilians (and around half of them children and the elderly) in developing countries whose areas were used for proxy wars.

Such is the case for Ukraine, which according to the lecture linked earlier, has been caught in the crossfire for so long.

Given that, I'd like to think that, if any, Russia very much resembles Western countries, especially the U.S. The difference is that it doesn't have the massive killing power that the U.S. possesses. But like the rest of BRICS and emerging markets, it's growing up thanks to economic growth.

And that is unacceptable for U.S. neocons/neolibs.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 09, 2022, 06:40:10 PM
Putin is "threatened by NATO," certainly, it's dampened many of his expansionist goals. And, yes, Putin is surrounded by fearful sycophants and the like-minded. So, yes.

Those expansionist goals involve dealing with separatist groups nearby. The same goes for China. Both are not at par with what the U.S. can do, especially with over 800 military bases and installations worldwide and the killing spree of the last two decades.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 09, 2022, 06:47:03 PM
If there's one thing Putin knows its SURVIVAL. The idea that he apropos of nothing decided to invade Ukraine for his own glory doesn't make sense. If that was his attitude he would have been gone decades ago

Countries like Russia, Iran, and China know the US is constantly bearing down on them and they move very carefully and deliberately

I thought the same: the West has been manipulating Ukraine since 2004, and it's part of a U.S. grand chessboard strategy of using over 800 military bases and installations worldwide plus foreign policies to coerce weak countries and encircle both Russia and China.

The last point is also notable. The U.S. has been using a combination of neoconservatism and neoliberalism since the Reagan years to make sure that other countries toe the line by relying on the dollar for trade and opening up their economies to exploitation for resources and cheap labor.

That's why Russia, Iran, and China may also be seen as part of BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) and over forty emerging markets (including Iran, the Philippines, Turkey, and various South American and African countries) that have been growing stronger economically the last three decades. They are now answering back at those in power, which is why recently not only Saudi Arabia but even Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore refused to follow the U.S. and insist on continuing to engage in trade with both Ukraine and Russia.

Even the Philippines, which is one of the biggest supporters of the U.S. worldwide, wants to remain a friend to Russia and China.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 09, 2022, 09:19:50 PM
Some humbly offered advice, ralfy. Your posts are unfocused because they go everywhere. Maybe you could concentrate your reply in a single post that summed up your thoughts instead of trying to play tag with everyone, and thereby appearing scattered as to what ideas you want to convey on the topic of the bats**t atrocities of Russia's maniacal dictator.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 10, 2022, 12:17:38 AM
Russia, Iran, and China are perfect boogeymen for American propaganda purposes because they have been around forever and are thus recognizable.

All 3 of these places mostly want to be left alone besides of China, who have a more complicated situation racially/ culturally etc and have weird ideas about what constitutes their actual space on this earth.

bottom line: the world isn't flat. The US doesn't have infinite resources. The operative bible story is not Revelation but the tower of Babel. All God has to do is snap his fingers and our empire is over


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 10, 2022, 07:27:04 AM
Russia, Iran, and China are perfect boogeymen

"Just be-cause you're paranoooid, does-n't mean they're not after yooooou...."


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 10, 2022, 01:55:42 PM
(https://images.jacobinmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/20144900/is34-uneven-and-combined-map-1945.png)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 10, 2022, 06:23:19 PM
Some humbly offered advice, ralfy. Your posts are unfocused because they go everywhere. Maybe you could concentrate your reply in a single post that summed up your thoughts instead of trying to play tag with everyone, and thereby appearing scattered as to what ideas you want to convey on the topic of the bats**t atrocities of Russia's maniacal dictator.


It's actually the opposite: my arguments are very clear and focused.

The gist is that the U.S. is owned by the rich, and the U.S. government that works for it uses neoconservatism (as seen in the military industrial complex) and neoliberalism (as seen in IMF-WB structural adjustment policies) to make sure that the global economy continues to use the dollar as a reserve currency. The reason that's needed is because the same use is the only thing that allows the U.S. to maintain four decades of heavy borrowing and spending.

Neoconservatism involves the use of a heavily funded military to set up over 800 military bases and installations worldwide to coerce, destabilize, and even bully others, as well as encircle rivals like Russia and China.

The problem is that not only Russia and China but also Brazil, India, South Africa, and over forty countries have become stronger economically and are answering back.

That's why many of them, including U.S. allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel, refused to follow the U.S., and plan to continue trading with Russia. The same goes for countries like Singapore, Malaysia, and others in Asia.

Why are they doing that? It's probably because they understand what happened to Ukraine from 2004 onward, when the U.S. manipulated Ukraine through coups and economic deals. There are more points from this 2015 lecture:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 10, 2022, 06:31:06 PM
Russia, Iran, and China are perfect boogeymen for American propaganda purposes because they have been around forever and are thus recognizable.

All 3 of these places mostly want to be left alone besides of China, who have a more complicated situation racially/ culturally etc and have weird ideas about what constitutes their actual space on this earth.

bottom line: the world isn't flat. The US doesn't have infinite resources. The operative bible story is not Revelation but the tower of Babel. All God has to do is snap his fingers and our empire is over

They are part of BRICS and forty emerging markets that are taking over the global economy. They are also slowly moving away from the dollar, forming their own economic blocs, focusing on bilateral relations, and using either special drawing rights or their own currencies for trade.

The U.S. needs the world economy to do the opposite, which is to remain dependent on the dollar as a reserve currency and to even oil priced only in dollars, because the loss of that dependence won't allow it to continue heavy borrowing and spending. And without those two, its economy will fall apart.

That's why for several decades the U.S. has been engaged in employing onerous foreign policies, maintaining over 800 military bases and installations worldwide, propping up pro-U.S. regimes, destabilization, and even invasion of various countries to ensure that. One of those countries that they have been manipulating since 2004 is Ukraine.

Unfortunately, the "[c]razy SOB [a]ctually [d]it it" and challenged the U.S. in another proxy war. The difference is that Russia stopped at the areas dominated by Russians, and probably because it did not want to lose trade with many countries that are remaining neutral. That's why recently countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel suprisingly disagreed with the U.S., insisting that they will continue trading with Russia. The same took place for Singapore, Malaysia, and other countries in Asia.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 10, 2022, 06:39:50 PM
(https://images.jacobinmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/20144900/is34-uneven-and-combined-map-1945.png)

Yes, those are the hundreds of military bases and installations worldwide:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321/ (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321/)

and for many decades they were used to coerce weaker countries, if not combined with other gov't agencies and foreign policies to employ low intensity conflict, destablization, coups, and invasions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/7/16/ameri-coup-a-brief-history-of-us-misdeeds (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/7/16/ameri-coup-a-brief-history-of-us-misdeeds)

That's why even one former U.S. President referred to the U.S. as the most warlike in modern history:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

Ironically, they are also part of a grand chessboard strategy that was raised by one of his former officials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard)

Given that, one can see these, Sachs' point about the military industrial complex, and the lecture shared earlier in light of what happened to Ukraine.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 10, 2022, 06:42:33 PM
Some humbly offered advice, ralfy. Your posts are unfocused because they go everywhere. Maybe you could concentrate your reply in a single post that summed up your thoughts instead of trying to play tag with everyone, and thereby appearing scattered as to what ideas you want to convey on the topic of the bats**t atrocities of Russia's maniacal dictator.


It's actually the opposite: my arguments are very clear and focused.

The gist is that the U.S. is owned by the rich, and the U.S. government that works for it uses neoconservatism (as seen in the military industrial complex) and neoliberalism (as seen in IMF-WB structural adjustment policies) to make sure that the global economy continues to use the dollar as a reserve currency. The reason that's needed is because the same use is the only thing that allows the U.S. to maintain four decades of heavy borrowing and spending.

Neoconservatism involves the use of a heavily funded military to set up over 800 military bases and installations worldwide to coerce, destabilize, and even bully others, as well as encircle rivals like Russia and China.

The problem is that not only Russia and China but also Brazil, India, South Africa, and over forty countries have become stronger economically and are answering back.

That's why many of them, including U.S. allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel, refused to follow the U.S., and plan to continue trading with Russia. The same goes for countries like Singapore, Malaysia, and others in Asia.

Why are they doing that? It's probably because they understand what happened to Ukraine from 2004 onward, when the U.S. manipulated Ukraine through coups and economic deals. There are more points from this 2015 lecture:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#[/url])





Well goddamn, I think it's terrible that you have all the answers yet aren't running for President so you can fix the f**king world.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 10, 2022, 11:36:08 PM
most of the wealthiest counties in the US are in Virginia and Maryland because that's where the military industrial complex is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

its all a scam, a clever method of moving money from the continental US to  DC


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 11, 2022, 01:00:38 PM
Even if you guys are 100% right about the military industrial complex, it doesn't change the Russians from the bad guys into the good guys in this particular scenario, or make Putin's decision to invade a rational one.

If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 11, 2022, 02:41:41 PM
Even if you guys are 100% right about the military industrial complex, it doesn't change the Russians from the bad guys into the good guys in this particular scenario, or make Putin's decision to invade a rational one.

If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.

Dig it!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 11, 2022, 03:12:01 PM
Quote
If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.

 Who you blame or what you believe is besides the point, objectively speaking






Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 11, 2022, 03:26:27 PM
Quote
If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.

 Who you blame or what you believe is besides the point, objectively speaking


Ditto for you.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 11, 2022, 03:29:10 PM
I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 11, 2022, 06:58:11 PM
Well goddamn, I think it's terrible that you have all the answers yet aren't running for President so you can fix the f**king world.


I'm not sure, but I think I shared one documentary from Pilger related to this incident. Just in case I didn't, here it is:

"The Coming War on China"

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

There's an interesting point given by one Chinese expert interviewed in it. He said the main difference between China and the U.S. is that the ruler of China is the Communist Party while the ruler of the U.S. is Wall Street.

That's why, as another documentary puts it, everything is a rich man's trick:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVpt_I9iQQ#)

which should not be surprising if the world economy is essentially controlled by the rich:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/)

In which case, the one who becomes President will likely not fix the world but continue working for those who call the shots.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 11, 2022, 07:05:41 PM
most of the wealthiest counties in the US are in Virginia and Maryland because that's where the military industrial complex is.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States[/url])

its all a scam, a clever method of moving money from the continental US to  DC


The bulk of the economy is controlled by a few:

https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/top-wealth-in-america-new-estimates-and-implications-for-taxing-the-rich/ (https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/top-wealth-in-america-new-estimates-and-implications-for-taxing-the-rich/)

That's why around 90 pct of media are controlled by six corporations, a large chuck of assets managed by only three, and even food processing, pharma, etc., are mostly owned by a few.

Since the 1960s that economy has been increasing dependent on borrowing and spending as the country reached late capitalism. That's why debts have been soaring, and much of it needed to support even the same MIC and pay for a very expensive military.

Given that, even an unwary public will wonder why they are being asked to pay for something that's not needed. That's why the media has to show them that the U.S. has lots of enemies and that the country has to be aggressive in countering them. As one ex-general in this short video put it, when all one has is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4#)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 11, 2022, 07:11:58 PM
Even if you guys are 100% right about the military industrial complex, it doesn't change the Russians from the bad guys into the good guys in this particular scenario, or make Putin's decision to invade a rational one.

If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.


I think it's because the situation isn't as simple as most thought. In this case, the context of the invasion might be seen in this:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

The implication is that the West was manipulating Ukraine to side with it while it continued demonizing Russia and even countries like China. How is this connected to the MIC? Because the only way to justify very high military spending is war.

Finally, that history of manipulation and more is extensive:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/ (https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/)

One can argue that this is expected of "crazy SOBs" like Russian "bad guys". But why did the "good guys" do the same, and most are not aware of this?



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 11, 2022, 07:21:01 PM
I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay

About this aside, from what I remember, the Vietnamese called for elections and the Communists won. The South and the West rejected it, so the U.S. started arming the South, leading to a continuation of war. Eventually, the South fell apart.

Today, Vietnam experienced a 13.7-pct GDP growth rate last quarter, probably the highest in its history. The Philippines, which has been cooler towards the U.S., got 7.6 pct, also a record high, and all taking place even during a pandemic and war.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 11, 2022, 08:00:59 PM
I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay

About this aside, from what I remember, the Vietnamese called for elections and the Communists won. The South and the West rejected it, so the U.S. started arming the South, leading to a continuation of war. Eventually, the South fell apart.

Today, Vietnam experienced a 13.7-pct GDP growth rate last quarter, probably the highest in its history. The Philippines, which has been cooler towards the U.S., got 7.6 pct, also a record high, and all taking place even during a pandemic and war.


How about on Veterans Day you give your America-bashing oh-so deep wisdom there a rest and think for a minute that not everyone shares your pessimistic cynicism, including people who loved this nation so much they served it, many at great personal cost? There's nothing so tiresome as know it all critic, and that's how you are coming off. This thread is supposed to be about the atrocious invasion of Ukraine, but your "see how smart I am" desire to speak badly about this country oozes in. Ever tried to see the glass as half-full? Ever felt any gratitude at all for people who have done and are doing their best to make other people's lives better? Any words giving credit to anything good the US has done for the world? What about those suffering right now in Ukraine (and in Russia too)? Any sympathy there? Any constructive use of  any sympathies you might have? Some of us who see life differently find endless negativity sophomoric and boring.
So, so boring.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 11, 2022, 08:15:48 PM
I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay

In the case of the Ukraine War, the puppeteer is POO-TIN. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 11, 2022, 09:06:13 PM
I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay
.

About this aside, from what I remember, the Vietnamese called for elections and the Communists won. The South and the West rejected it, so the U.S. started arming the South, leading to a continuation of war. Eventually, the South fell apart.

Today, Vietnam experienced a 13.7-pct GDP growth rate last quarter, probably the highest in its history. The Philippines, which has been cooler towards the U.S., got 7.6 pct, also a record high, and all taking place even during a pandemic and war.


How about on Veterans Day you give your America-bashing oh-so deep wisdom there a rest and think for a minute that not everyone shares your pessimistic cynicism, including people who loved this nation so much they served it, many at great personal cost? There's nothing so tiresome as know it all critic, and that's how you are coming off. This thread is supposed to be about the atrocious invasion of Ukraine, but your "see how smart I am" desire to speak badly about this country oozes in. Ever tried to see the glass as half-full? Ever felt any gratitude at all for people who have done and are doing their best to make other people's lives better? Any words giving credit to anything good the US has done for the world? What about those suffering right now in Ukraine (and in Russia too)? Any sympathy there? Any constructive use of  any sympathies you might have? Some of us who see life differently find endless negativity sophomoric and boring.
So, so boring.


I agree with ER here, his post was a reminder that even if you believe you are right and may be to a degree you can let it go one day once in a while.  Also do we have to have SMFH here?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 12:42:33 AM
Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2022, 04:24:57 AM
Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor

Lester - wrong. You are just dancing to Putin's tune.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 12, 2022, 09:45:18 AM
US/ NAto is the agressor

It's not fruitful to continue arguing this point, I'll just register my disagreement and move on.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 12, 2022, 02:19:24 PM
Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor

Lester, expansion of NATO is not comparable to a pre-emptive strike, bombing civilians and moving in tanked troops.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on November 12, 2022, 02:42:08 PM
Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor

Lester, expansion of NATO is not comparable to a pre-emptive strike, bombing civilians and moving in tanked troops.
For once, I hafta agree with you.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 03:00:59 PM
again i can't believe after Iraq Vietnam etc anyone would buy washingtons story about what is happening anywhere. or take their enemies as ones own


more to the point

(https://progressive.org/downloads/16992/download/pasted%20image%200.jpg?cb=ee21b073991ccd2a5801b059f0af4e21&w=550&h=)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 12, 2022, 03:25:21 PM
again i can't believe after Iraq Vietnam etc anyone would buy washingtons story about what is happening anywhere. or take their enemies as ones own
...
The picture is anecdotal; get real.  You have entered the realm of blah blah blah. 

Lester, your insights are not lost on everyone, but don't put all your eggs in one basket.  There is no USA troops on the ground, but there are Russians and Ukrainians.  The blame game is a distraction of history - the advice you've been offering - and POO-TIN holding your basket is liable to bust all your eggs. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 03:28:23 PM
I'd rather not support neo nazis, personally


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2022, 03:45:30 PM
I'd rather not support neo nazis, personally

And yet you are quite happy to support a side using them.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 03:49:16 PM
the picture is of Ukrainians not Russians. and I don't support any side


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 12, 2022, 03:53:24 PM
I'd rather not support neo nazis, personally

lester, I've always known you to be an intelligent person, a thinker outside the box, even when I haven't always agreed with you, so I would like to ask you something I asked you for the first time back in 2011. The question is, what's a realistic alternative to the global situation you so often speak out against and claim is in effect? Honest question, not an opening for an argument, just sincere curiosity, because surely you do have an alternative plan in mind that you advocate.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2022, 03:56:14 PM
the picture is of Ukrainians not Russians. and I don't support any side

You might want to read your own posts because you certainly don't come off as not supporting any side. I wasn't referring to the picture. I was referring to the Russian use of neo nazi units. I am aware the Ukrainian's have a unit that includes such elements. They were in the process of clearing those people out of their military, but Russian actions since 2014 put an end to that and they've been forced to use all the troops they can get. It wouldn't surprise though that you'd pull up the Ukrainian military for using such troops while ignoring the Russians doing it. Despite your protestation, you quite clearly have a side you are supporting and it shows in your bias.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 12, 2022, 04:08:11 PM
the picture is of Ukrainians not Russians. and I don't support any side

You might want to read your own posts because you certainly don't come off as not supporting any side. I wasn't referring to the picture. I was referring to the Russian use of neo nazi units. I am aware the Ukrainian's have a unit that includes such elements. They were in the process of clearing those people out of their military, but Russian actions since 2014 put an end to that and they've been forced to use all the troops they can get. It wouldn't surprise though that you'd pull up the Ukrainian military for using such troops while ignoring the Russians doing it. Despite your protestation, you quite clearly have a side you are supporting and it shows in your bias.

Not supporting either side is a position I could understand and respect. If you really don't support the Russians, lester, you need to work a lot harder at showing it. Your posts all come off like a Putin fanboy.

Earlier in the thread I said that "I thought you only didn't want us involved in the conflict in any way, not that you were actively rooting for Russia" and you mocked my post. Then RC accused you of being pro-Russia, and you didn't deny it. So I have assumed since then you are actively rooting for Russia.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 04:24:17 PM
This is like a House of Unamerican Activities meeting.


ER - Well I admit my position that we have no responsibility to the rest of the world is somewhat marginal, but do we have EVERY responsibility? Where is that line? We are 30 trillion dollars in debt and our own nation isn't doing so hot.

an Example: we spent billions in the last decade arming and supporting the "moderate rebels" in Syria. That they were ideologically in line with the likes of Al Queda and ISIS was just about the worst kept secret in town. so we're giving money to people who probably celebrated on 9/11 and why? for human rights?

Was Syria going to attack the continental United States? Of course not. The reason was the Saudis hate Iran and Syria because of some insane religious doctorine argument and Israel sees Iran not saudi arabia as a threat because Iran is hostile to them and Saudis are bought and paid for.

These countries are dictatorships and quasi dictatorships because they SUCK. These are sucky places. The US is a good place we should be making it better


REV- I mocked you because you seemed to not understand to the fact that there was any other position besides your own.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 12, 2022, 04:32:06 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 12, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
I don't get it


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 12, 2022, 06:01:19 PM
I don't get it

We know... :smile:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 12, 2022, 06:57:52 PM
The ukraine  invasion did not occur in a vaccuum, Russia seized Crimea a few years back and shot down a western civilian jetliner full of civilians, and got away with it. Ukraine has to be a line in the sand and pooty can't be allowed to cross it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 08:41:27 PM

How about on Veterans Day you give your America-bashing oh-so deep wisdom there a rest and think for a minute that not everyone shares your pessimistic cynicism, including people who loved this nation so much they served it, many at great personal cost? There's nothing so tiresome as know it all critic, and that's how you are coming off. This thread is supposed to be about the atrocious invasion of Ukraine, but your "see how smart I am" desire to speak badly about this country oozes in. Ever tried to see the glass as half-full? Ever felt any gratitude at all for people who have done and are doing their best to make other people's lives better? Any words giving credit to anything good the US has done for the world? What about those suffering right now in Ukraine (and in Russia too)? Any sympathy there? Any constructive use of  any sympathies you might have? Some of us who see life differently find endless negativity sophomoric and boring.
So, so boring.

It's after Veterans' Day now, so I can continue, right?

My intention isn't to deny this "atrocious invasion." Rather, it's to study the "atrocious intervention" that led to it.

I don't deny the good that the U.S. did to others, including the Marshal Plan, but when its most liberal former President refers to it as the equivalent of the top warmonger not only of the world but in modern history, then I can't easily ignore that:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

Quote
Carter then said the US has been at peace for only 16 of its 242 years as a nation. Counting wars, military attacks and military occupations, there have actually only been five years of peace in US history — 1976, the last year of the Gerald Ford administration and 1977-80, the entirety of Carter’s presidency. Carter then referred to the US as “the most warlike nation in the history of the world,” a result, he said, of the US forcing other countries to “adopt our American principles.”

And even those years of peace are questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine)

Quote
The region which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan is of great strategic importance: It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil. The Soviet effort to dominate Afghanistan has brought Soviet military forces to within 300 miles of the Indian Ocean and close to the Straits of Hormuz, a waterway through which most of the world's oil must flow. The Soviet Union is now attempting to consolidate a strategic position, therefore, that poses a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil.

This situation demands careful thought, steady nerves, and resolute action, not only for this year but for many years to come. It demands collective efforts to meet this new threat to security in the Persian Gulf and in Southwest Asia. It demands the participation of all those who rely on oil from the Middle East and who are concerned with global peace and stability. And it demands consultation and close cooperation with countries in the area which might be threatened.

And since we're now talking about being sympathetic, where were all those "I stand with Ukraine" cheerleaders when hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians, Yemenis, and more were suffering and dying? Were they following the logic of the Carter doctrine, stating that that was necessary in order to ensure protecting what is strategically important? What's the possibility that that "crazy SOB" is also thinking the same?

So, now we have a double-standard: Russia is insane if it follows not just the equivalent of the Carter but even the Reagan doctrine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Doctrine)

Quote
"We must not break faith with those who are risking their lives—on every continent from Afghanistan to Nicaragua—to defy Soviet-supported aggression and secure rights which have been ours from birth."[1]

but the U.S. is not because it's exceptional, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism)

So, my question remains: why didn't most "freedom-loving" people worldwide not notice that as the West coerced, destabilized, and coerced multiple countries across decades, but are now upset when China sets up installations in the SCS (pop quiz: which country has the most installations in the region? clue: it's not China) and Russia invades Ukraine?

Perhaps you already answered the question: because it's boring to hear that. But doesn't that argument work both ways?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 08:44:07 PM
In the case of the Ukraine War, the puppeteer is POO-TIN. 


I think, following what the OP said, he's a "crazy SOB," but lashing out at the puppeteer.

But who's the puppeteer? Might this lecture help?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 08:44:50 PM
I agree with ER here, his post was a reminder that even if you believe you are right and may be to a degree you can let it go one day once in a while.  Also do we have to have SMFH here?

But doesn't that argument work both ways?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 08:48:08 PM
Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor

That's possible:

"History has shown that NATO is the aggressor"

https://challenge-magazine.org/2022/02/22/history-has-shown-that-nato-is-the-aggressor/

Quote
2004 saw the largest expansion in terms of territorial size. The three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joined alongside Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia. NATO was now less than two hundred kilometres from Saint Petersburg and the Russian border was now far more exposed than the Soviet one had been in 1941. Only Belarus and Ukraine remained neutral.

Ukraine! How can we forget. In 1994, Russia, Great Britain, and the United States agreed in Budapest a series of measures to support Ukrainian nuclear de-armament, since Ukraine had inherited a relatively large stock of Soviet nuclear weapons. The Budapest Memorandum essentially guaranteed the neutrality of Ukraine. Yet in 2004, despite all historical assurances and the text of the Budapest Memorandum, American and European finances poured in to support Presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko. Billions of dollars from the State Department and USAID have been spent in Ukraine building a political movement to separate Ukraine from Russia.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 08:52:01 PM
I don't get it

I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies.

In my case, I follow most countries that want to remain neutral because I think we're looking at two "crazy SOBs" and not one.





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 12, 2022, 09:15:51 PM
Quote
Who is the more important trading partner: China (red) or USA (blue)? How drastically the world economy has changed. No wonder US and EU miscalculated how sanctions would "weaken" Russia. Thanks to Henry Hakamaki for the graphic.

https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1591475916592611329


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 12, 2022, 09:22:05 PM
I don't get it

I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies.
...

WAH-rong!   :teddyr:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 13, 2022, 12:22:49 AM
People are blaming NATO for provoking the Russian attack on Ukraine. Has anyone considered Russia's seizure of Crimea 'provoked' countries to seek NATO membership?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 13, 2022, 01:02:33 AM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on November 13, 2022, 01:34:15 AM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?


Considering the war that the Biden administration has declared on energy & transportation, and considering the effects it's had on the supply chain, which has in turn wrecked various forms of employment as well as our ability to produce, not to mention the New Woke Military, the whole notion leaves me very nervous....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 13, 2022, 01:38:23 AM
If Iraq and Vietnam had been fought by mercenary armies instead of american soldiers would they then have been okay?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 13, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that?


Yes.



 Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?



Yes.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 13, 2022, 09:35:36 AM
Thanks for answering my question, lester.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 13, 2022, 09:52:00 AM
If Iraq and Vietnam had been fought by mercenary armies instead of american soldiers would they then have been okay?

That question is not clear or simple to answer. It depends on a lot of factors that can't be expressed in a one-sentence proposal.

Vietnam was a civil war, it would have been fought in any case whether the Cold War powers supported one side or the other. I don't see it as immoral for us to side with the South Vietnamese against the Communists---it was imprudent because of the amount of resources we had to commit for no real gain for anyone. Merely supplying weapons to the South Vietnamese would have been fine. The draft, on the other hand, was immoral. It's not black and white.

I assume you mean Iraq 2, not Iraq 1. I don't know that I can envision a situation where it's fought by "mercenary armies." You mean by funding a revolution? I imagine it would depend on a bunch of hypotheticals that make it impossible to know. I mean, you could certainly design a scenario where it would be unjust.

I see a big difference between mere foreign aid and declaring war/committing American lives. It's a gradation. Support doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Edit: not sure I understood lester's question completely so I'm adding a bit.

"Mercenary armies" just isn't really a thing the US has done in the 20th/21st centuries. I mean, it's better than the draft, which should only be used when we face a near-existential threat. It seems inferior to simply arming the people who live there and are eager to fight, like Afghanis against the Soviets or the Ukrainians today. And we definitely do not want private armies like the Wagner Group in the US. there's something dad and distasteful about mercenaries, men who have nothing better to do with their lives than to risk them money. I don't know that literal mercenaries are an option that's on the table.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 13, 2022, 03:27:01 PM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?


Considering the war that the Biden administration has declared on energy & transportation, and considering the effects it's had on the supply chain, which has in turn wrecked various forms of employment as well as our ability to produce, not to mention the New Woke Military, the whole notion leaves me very nervous....

I'm unaware of any war President Biden has declared on energy and transportation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:24:35 PM
WAH-rong!   :teddyr:

"Wrong" means the opposite.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:31:00 PM
People are blaming NATO for provoking the Russian attack on Ukraine. Has anyone considered Russia's seizure of Crimea 'provoked' countries to seek NATO membership?

I think neocons were provoking people in Crimea to protest against pro-Russian Ukrainians in 2014, and as part of color revolutions. The goal of the latter were to destabilize countries, foster revolutions, and then bring in political leaders who would work with and for the U.S. and its allies.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?



My sense is that many U.S. citizens are suffering economically and argue that aid should go to them and not to Ukraine.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:41:42 PM
If Iraq and Vietnam had been fought by mercenary armies instead of american soldiers would they then have been okay?

Interestingly enough, there's an article about that here:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/want-solve-america%E2%80%99s-recruiting-crisis-recruit-foreigners-204260 (https://nationalinterest.org/feature/want-solve-america%E2%80%99s-recruiting-crisis-recruit-foreigners-204260)

The U.S. is having difficulty recruiting because most U.S. youth are not qualified for military service and even many careers due to illness (physical and mental), vices, and low test scores. The writer suggests recruiting from foreigners.

Another problem is that the only way the U.S. has been able to spend on the military and even sustain its economy is heavy borrowing and spending, which is started doing during Reagan's term:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163-krugman-and-the-pied-pipers-of-debt (https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163-krugman-and-the-pied-pipers-of-debt)

(https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/9/30/saupload_public_and_private_debt_burden.jpg)

Ironically, the same thing is what fostered the military industrial complex, neoliberalism which led to a few Americans controlling the economy, and the 2008 financial crash. The country recovered from the latter by taking on more debt and then bailing out the rich for free.

It has to keep borrowing and spending to sustain the economy and cannot pay back total debt, just part of the interest on it. Total debt is estimated at $70 trillion, excluding over $170 trillion in unfunded liabilities:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/ (https://www.usdebtclock.org/)

Meanwhile, more Americans are complaining about high military costs and even aid sent to other countries instead of the same going to them.





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 13, 2022, 07:46:04 PM
WAH-rong!   :teddyr:

"Wrong" means the opposite.



(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:55:41 PM

That question is not clear or simple to answer. It depends on a lot of factors that can't be expressed in a one-sentence proposal.

Vietnam was a civil war, it would have been fought in any case whether the Cold War powers supported one side or the other. I don't see it as immoral for us to side with the South Vietnamese against the Communists---it was imprudent because of the amount of resources we had to commit for no real gain for anyone. Merely supplying weapons to the South Vietnamese would have been fine. The draft, on the other hand, was immoral. It's not black and white.

I assume you mean Iraq 2, not Iraq 1. I don't know that I can envision a situation where it's fought by "mercenary armies." You mean by funding a revolution? I imagine it would depend on a bunch of hypotheticals that make it impossible to know. I mean, you could certainly design a scenario where it would be unjust.

I see a big difference between mere foreign aid and declaring war/committing American lives. It's a gradation. Support doesn't have to be all or nothing.

From what I remember, the Communists won in elections, but the U.S. refused to accept that, so it propped up Saigon generals and fostered splitting the country, after which it used a false flag to instigate war. Meanwhile, it assassinated or oustered its own Saigon puppets who did not want to fight. Eventually, the Communists won, but the war led to two million dead.

The U.S. did similar in Iraq: it supported Saddam as part of pan-Arab nationalism and to counter the Soviets, after which it pushed Iraq into attacking Iran when the latter removed its U.S.-backed dictator. Later, it used false flags to invade Iraq, occupy Basra, and set up more military presence in the region. The irony is that most Iraqis don't like the U.S., and they were controlled for decades by U.S.-backed Saddam. That's why during the occupation the U.S. had to use Saddam's former men from the Ba'ath, their own puppets, and leaders from the same population to come up with some weird co-rule. It didn't work.

Finally, I think what they did was not to design intervention to make it appear that they were just but the opposite. Such intervention is unjust as the U.S. was not threatened physically by any of these countries. That's why the U.S. employed false flags, low intensity conflict, etc.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 13, 2022, 07:57:11 PM

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)

Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 13, 2022, 08:00:20 PM
WAH-rong!   :teddyr:

"Wrong" means the opposite.


wrong
/rôNG/

    1.not correct or true; incorrect. "that is the wrong answer"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 13, 2022, 08:04:48 PM

That question is not clear or simple to answer. It depends on a lot of factors that can't be expressed in a one-sentence proposal.

Vietnam was a civil war, it would have been fought in any case whether the Cold War powers supported one side or the other. I don't see it as immoral for us to side with the South Vietnamese against the Communists---it was imprudent because of the amount of resources we had to commit for no real gain for anyone. Merely supplying weapons to the South Vietnamese would have been fine. The draft, on the other hand, was immoral. It's not black and white.

I assume you mean Iraq 2, not Iraq 1. I don't know that I can envision a situation where it's fought by "mercenary armies." You mean by funding a revolution? I imagine it would depend on a bunch of hypotheticals that make it impossible to know. I mean, you could certainly design a scenario where it would be unjust.

I see a big difference between mere foreign aid and declaring war/committing American lives. It's a gradation. Support doesn't have to be all or nothing.

From what I remember, the Communists won in elections, but the U.S. refused to accept that, so it propped up Saigon generals and fostered splitting the country, after which it used a false flag to instigate war. Meanwhile, it assassinated or oustered its own Saigon puppets who did not want to fight. Eventually, the Communists won, but the war led to two million dead.

The U.S. did similar in Iraq: it supported Saddam as part of pan-Arab nationalism and to counter the Soviets, after which it pushed Iraq into attacking Iran when the latter removed its U.S.-backed dictator. Later, it used false flags to invade Iraq, occupy Basra, and set up more military presence in the region. The irony is that most Iraqis don't like the U.S., and they were controlled for decades by U.S.-backed Saddam. That's why during the occupation the U.S. had to use Saddam's former men from the Ba'ath, their own puppets, and leaders from the same population to come up with some weird co-rule. It didn't work.

Finally, I think what they did was not to design intervention to make it appear that they were just but the opposite. Such intervention is unjust as the U.S. was not threatened physically by any of these countries. That's why the U.S. employed false flags, low intensity conflict, etc.



OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 13, 2022, 09:37:09 PM

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)

Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?

I'd rather annoy you.  You don't like being wrong, but you don't have to resort to insults.   Tap dancer. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: LilCerberus on November 13, 2022, 10:21:01 PM
here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?


Rereading & rethinking your question, I'd hafta go back to something that got me a lotta boos:
"Wag The Dog For Burisma"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 14, 2022, 12:07:09 AM
remember when Biden said we were going to stay out of it?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 14, 2022, 07:06:31 PM
wrong
/rôNG/

    1.not correct or true; incorrect. "that is the wrong answer"

Lester: "I don't get it"

All: "We know..."

Ralfy: "I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies."

All: "WAH-rong!" [That is, I'm not claiming that he's cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."

Ralfy: "'Wrong' means the opposite." [That is, the opposite of the claim that "you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."]

All: [posts the same pic in response to Ralfy]

Ralfy: "Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?" [A buffoon is not interested in contributing important points. Rather, he only wants to annoy others.]

All: "I'd rather annoy you.  You don't like being wrong, but you don't have to resort to insults.   Tap dancer.  "



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 14, 2022, 07:17:10 PM


OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.

I think that was a false flag, especially given the claim that Saddam was working with terrorists. Also, I don't understand how I am wandering way off topic when I am simply responding to points to you raised, i.e., Vietnam and Iraq.







Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 14, 2022, 09:32:48 PM
...
Lester: "I don't get it"
All: "We know..."
Ralfy: "I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies."
All: "WAH-rong!" [That is, I'm not claiming that he's cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."
Ralfy: "'Wrong' means the opposite." [That is, the opposite of the claim that "you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."]
All: [posts the same pic in response to Ralfy]
Ralfy: "Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?" [A buffoon is not interested in contributing important points. Rather, he only wants to annoy others.]
All: "I'd rather annoy you.  You don't like being wrong, but you don't have to resort to insults.   Tap dancer.  "
 

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 14, 2022, 10:03:24 PM


OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.

I think that was a false flag, especially given the claim that Saddam was working with terrorists. Also, I don't understand how I am wandering way off topic when I am simply responding to points to you raised, i.e., Vietnam and Iraq.







IMS that I agree with you here.  Iraq had zip to do with 911, Hussein hated hard-core Islamic extremists as they were a threat a to his power base. When  a large group of them tried to organize in Iraq he massacred hundreds of them.

Bush Jr planned to seize iraq somehow from his first day in office, he was looking for an excuse from day one as later exposed documents revealed.  911 was just an excuse todo what he wanted  to anyway.  A book called ''why we invaded iraq'' I believe lays out the case that we invaded iraq because Bush Jr. wanted too.

Maybe other states petitioning to join NATO just gave poots his excuse to do what he always wanted to do in Ukraine.

Russia sure has had a hell of a bad time since the SU collapsed. It invaded Afghanistan to stop it becoming a hostile Muslim power, got shellacked in it and  now it is a hostile islamofascist state next to them.  It's economy tanked, it got taken over by a total despot and his cult of personality junta,  now it's a pariah state and it's economy is a tragic mess, plus it's population figures are in a crisis AND it's dictator has thrown away thousands of healthy young men in a Charlie foxtrot of an invasion.

I honestly can't help pitying the average Russian people. I mean the country is almost as much a chronic trainwreck as Haiti. If there truly is a higher power in the universe (I think there is but I don't claim to be certain) I wish it would send russia some sort of practical, secular 'savior' to get that country running like a state and not a perpetual trainwreck ran by psychopaths and mobsters.
 




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 14, 2022, 10:14:22 PM
wrong
/rôNG/

    1.not correct or true; incorrect. "that is the wrong answer"

Lester: "I don't get it"

All: "We know..."

Ralfy: "I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies."

All: "WAH-rong!" [That is, I'm not claiming that he's cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."

Ralfy: "'Wrong' means the opposite." [That is, the opposite of the claim that "you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."]



I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 14, 2022, 10:32:02 PM


OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.

I think that was a false flag, especially given the claim that Saddam was working with terrorists. Also, I don't understand how I am wandering way off topic when I am simply responding to points to you raised, i.e., Vietnam and Iraq.



I think the term "false flag" is thrown around too casually and tends to decrease your persuasiveness, since it's a favorite claim of 911 truthers and Alex Jones types. A false flag is not merely misinformation, propaganda, or an untrue claim. It's a deliberate staging of an act for which you blame others, like bombing your own people and claiming terrorists did it. True false flags are exceedingly rare in history (or are small scale events).

"Wandering way off course" was a misrepresentation on my part, but to follow up with you would lead to off-topic conversation. In context, I was just responding to lester's hypothetical, which I found was somewhat interesting, not trying to start a new off-topic conversation about Vietnam or Iraq. I still don't know why lester posted his hypothetical since he didn't follow up.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 14, 2022, 10:37:41 PM


OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.

I think that was a false flag, especially given the claim that Saddam was working with terrorists. Also, I don't understand how I am wandering way off topic when I am simply responding to points to you raised, i.e., Vietnam and Iraq.



I think the term "false flag" is thrown around too casually and tends to decrease your persuasiveness, since it's a favorite claim of 911 truthers and Alex Jones types. A false flag is not merely misinformation, propaganda, or an untrue claim. It's a deliberate staging of an act for which you blame others, like bombing your own people and claiming terrorists did it. True false flags are exceedingly rare in history (or are small scale events).

"Wandering way off course" was a misrepresentation on my part, but to follow up with you would lead to off-topic conversation. In context, I was just responding to lester's hypothetical, which I found was somewhat interesting, not trying to start a new off-topic conversation about Vietnam or Iraq. I still don't know why lester posted his hypothetical since he didn't follow up.


Well by your definition then yes, it's not likely Bush was involved with 911, but I do believe he used it as an excuse to invade iraq.  Maybe it was a false flag of convenience where somone uses an event others used to justify a wrobg action.

Real false flags? Well likely tge Reichstag fire and an alleged polish attack against German forces are the two that I think were legit.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on November 14, 2022, 11:21:44 PM
Look, Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 and got his butt severely kicked for doing so.
After withdrawing, he signed on to ten UN resolutions as part of the peace deal, the violation of ANY of which were grounds for resumption of hostilities by the Western allies.  He then proceeded to violate all ten of those resolutions over the next decade and change, despite repeated warnings and occasional retaliatory bombings.  He even went so far as to send a team of assassins into Kuwait to assassinate former President Bush in 1993.
I remember the runup to the Iraq War quite well.  GWB never said Saddam was tied to 9/11, but he did express concerns that Iraq might supply future terrorist organizations with biological or chemical weapons.
I believed and still believe that toppling Saddam was legal and just, no matter how badly fought the later stages of the war turned out to be.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 14, 2022, 11:34:18 PM
...I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness.
You are right.  Hopefully, Ralfy will understand that is as in "correct", and not the opposite of left, or Wilbur or Orville, or a place to buy meds. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 15, 2022, 12:22:47 PM


I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness.


Criticism of Putin, of Russia, and of the invasion is very clear in this thread. What's being evaded are the circumstances that led to that. There are more details here:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

and in other sources shared in my previous posts. Take note that the lecture is from 2015. The professor also has a written report here:

https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf (https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf)

The gist is that the mainstream view is that Putin annexed Crimea and will attack Ukraine because he wants to bring back the Soviet Empire. The point is wrong: rather, there is NATO enlargement, and the goal is to put Ukraine in the orbit of the West and away from Russia.

This ties up very clearly with points that I and Sachs made. That is,

The U.S. gains power by (1) making sure that other countries remain dependent on it by using the dollar as a reserve currency, (2) using that dependence to attain more debt and thus pay for a very expensive military (i.e., the military industrial complex), which (3) is being used to coerce dozens of countries and encircle both Russia and China, because that's what makes (1) possible.

So, you see, I have been doing the complete opposite of tap dancing around this subject. If any, I've been raising what several has been tap dancing around: this is not so much an unprovoked attack from a "crazy SOB" but a reaction to provocation from other even stronger "crazy SOBs". The same professor repeats his points here:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine)

Quote
The political scientist John Mearsheimer has been one of the most famous critics of American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War. Perhaps best known for the book he wrote with Stephen Walt, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” Mearsheimer is a proponent of great-power politics—a school of realist international relations that assumes that, in a self-interested attempt to preserve national security, states will preëmptively act in anticipation of adversaries. For years, Mearsheimer has argued that the U.S., in pushing to expand NATO eastward and establishing friendly relations with Ukraine, has increased the likelihood of war between nuclear-armed powers and laid the groundwork for Vladimir Putin’s aggressive position toward Ukraine. Indeed, in 2014, after Russia annexed Crimea, Mearsheimer wrote that “the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for this crisis.”


And this is not an isolated. We're looking at a country that has a long history of employing false flags and engaging in all sorts of provocation for strategic and economic advantages:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/ (https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/)

There's a lot more where that came from, from the NS Archives at GWU to the Pentagon Papers to works like Chalmers Johnson's Blowback to Pilger's documentaries to various papers by Chomsky and others. That's also why claims made by even former Presidents of the U.S. can't be ignored easily:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

See also color revolutions taking place in various countries during the last two decades or more.

Might this also explain Pilger's points about possible flashpoints in Asia?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

https://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china (https://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china)

Quote
When the United States, the world’s biggest military power, decided that China, the second largest economic power, was a threat to its imperial dominance, two-thirds of US naval forces were transferred to Asia and the Pacific. This was the ‘pivot to Asia', announced by President Barack Obama in 2011. China, which in the space of a generation had risen from the chaos of Mao Zedong's ‘Cultural Revolution’ to an economic prosperity that has seen more than 500 million people lifted out of poverty, was suddenly the United States's new enemy.

The build-up of naval forces would reinforce the US's already overwhelmingly superior military position in the region. Seldom referred to in the Western media, 400 American bases surround China with ships, missiles and troops, in an arc that extends from Australia north through the Pacific to Japan, Korea and across Eurasia to Afghanistan and India.


Do you also see the connections between such pivots and military build-up and what I and Sachs stated above? As not only China but Russia, Brazil, India, South Africa, and over forty countries become stronger economically, they will likely rely less on the dollar and prefer to use their own currencies and baskets of currencies for trade, as well as form bilateral relations and even economic blocs? As that happens, how will the U.S. continue borrowing and spending heavily to not only pay for its expensive military but to even maintain its economy?





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 15, 2022, 12:35:32 PM

Well by your definition then yes, it's not likely Bush was involved with 911, but I do believe he used it as an excuse to invade iraq.  Maybe it was a false flag of convenience where somone uses an event others used to justify a wrobg action.

Real false flags? Well likely tge Reichstag fire and an alleged polish attack against German forces are the two that I think were legit.


They immediately pointed at Iraq only a few days after the attack, found no WMDs, came up with the absurd claim that Iraq, who is against Islamic fundamentalism, was supporting terrorists, etc. He even made a joke out of it later:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35NA6TywAg#)

The hilarity continues years later:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEg6Ht2pNH0#)

Even though he insisted that God told him to attack:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKt56ztXSK0#)

And if Chomsky is right, the other Presidents are no better.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXtgq0Nhsc#)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 15, 2022, 12:48:26 PM
Look, Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990 and got his butt severely kicked for doing so.
After withdrawing, he signed on to ten UN resolutions as part of the peace deal, the violation of ANY of which were grounds for resumption of hostilities by the Western allies.  He then proceeded to violate all ten of those resolutions over the next decade and change, despite repeated warnings and occasional retaliatory bombings.  He even went so far as to send a team of assassins into Kuwait to assassinate former President Bush in 1993.
I remember the runup to the Iraq War quite well.  GWB never said Saddam was tied to 9/11, but he did express concerns that Iraq might supply future terrorist organizations with biological or chemical weapons.
I believed and still believe that toppling Saddam was legal and just, no matter how badly fought the later stages of the war turned out to be.

They claimed that he was supporting terrorists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam%E2%80%93al-Qaeda_conspiracy_theory

In addition, Saddam was supported by the U.S.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

This is not an isolated case: the U.S. was also supporting the Shah of Iran and various dictators worldwide, all in exchange for retaining military bases, accessing natural resources, etc. The U.S. had been doing such and more for at least a century:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

Chalmers Johnson provides lots of details in books like Blowback, and so does Chomsky. More can be seen in documentaries by Pilger and others.

It's likely that the U.S. supported Saddam to counter Iron Curtain influence in the Middle East and later Islamic fundamentalists in his own country, then invaded Iraq to take control of Basra plus attempt establishing military bases in the country. It could not maintain control because, as I recall, most Iraqis are against the U.S. That's why latter had to use Saddam's former men to work with their U.S.-educated puppets to rule the country.

Similar happened in Afghanistan, where they had to get Northern Alliance drug pushers and rapists to work with their own puppets. That didn't succeed.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 15, 2022, 01:00:57 PM
You are right.  Hopefully, Ralfy will understand that is as in "correct", and not the opposite of left, or Wilbur or Orville, or a place to buy meds. 

But I've been doing the opposite of evading the subject. If any, I think the majority were doing that by believing that this is a simple case of a "crazy SOB" invading a country to bring back the Soviet Empire. It's explained in the first paragraph here:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine)

The counterclaim is that the attack was provoked by the West attempting to expand its power by pulling in countries near Russia to its orbit. If you read the rest of the article plus the sources I provided in earlier messages, then you will see that not only have I been addressing what many want to avoid but I've been providing multiple sources to explain them.

I think what Mearsheimer said makes sense because the U.S. has been doing such for many decades, and to countries ranging from the Philippines to Iraq. How can one discount what happened in Ukraine from 2004 onward?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 15, 2022, 01:14:09 PM
"How NATO's expansion helped drive Putin to invade Ukraine"

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-russia-nato-explainer (https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-russia-nato-explainer)

Quote
Ukraine, as the largest former Soviet republic in Europe besides Russia itself, has been a key part of alliance talks since it declared independence from the USSR in 1991. In the three decades since, NATO expansion has put four members on Ukraine's borders.

"The Russians were always concerned about how far NATO enlargement was going to go. It's one thing for Poland to come in, or the Czech Republic to come in. That's not such a big deal. But there was always a concern about Ukraine," Goldgeier said.

(https://apps.npr.org/dailygraphics/graphics/nato-map-20220127/img/_ai2html-map-medium.jpg)

"The Roots of the Ukraine War: How the Crisis Developed"

https://www.nytimes.com/article/russia-ukraine-nato-europe.html (https://www.nytimes.com/article/russia-ukraine-nato-europe.html)

Quote
After the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 1990s, NATO expanded eastward, eventually taking in most of the European nations that had been in the Communist sphere. The Baltic republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, once parts of the Soviet Union, joined NATO, as did Poland, Romania and others.

...

As a result, NATO moved hundreds of miles closer to Moscow, directly bordering Russia. And in 2008, it stated that it planned — some day — to enroll Ukraine, though that is still seen as a far-off prospect.

"The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It"

https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato-helped-trigger-ukraine-war-its-not-siding-putin-admit-it (https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-nato-helped-trigger-ukraine-war-its-not-siding-putin-admit-it)

Quote
It has become especially fashionable in such circles to insist that NATO’s expansion to Russia’s border was in no way responsible for the current Ukraine crisis. Many dismiss all arguments to the contrary as “echoing Putin’s talking points,” “siding with Putin,” or circulating Russian propaganda and “disinformation.” Leaving aside the ugly miasma of McCarthyism enveloping such allegations, the underlying argument is factually wrong.

Russian leaders and several Western policy experts were warning more than two decades ago that NATO expansion would turn out badly—ending in a new cold war with Russia at best, and a hot one at worst. Obviously, they were not “echoing” Putin or anyone else. George Kennan, the intellectual architect of America’s containment policy during the Cold War, perceptively warned in a May 2, 1998 New York Times interview what NATO’s move eastward would set in motion. “I think it is the beginning of a new cold war,” he stated. “I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake.”



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2022, 01:30:56 PM
Of course, the slight flaw in all of that is Putin himself at one point wanted to join NATO and the countries that didn't want to join NATO that used to be part of the USSR that Putin has grabbed bits of. But hey, you keep going and only seeing half the picture.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 15, 2022, 01:33:19 PM


I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness.


Criticism of Putin, of Russia, and of the invasion is very clear in this thread. What's being evaded are the circumstances that led to that. There are more details here:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#[/url])

and in other sources shared in my previous posts. Take note that the lecture is from 2015. The professor also has a written report here:

[url]https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf[/url] ([url]https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf[/url])

The gist is that the mainstream view is that Putin annexed Crimea and will attack Ukraine because he wants to bring back the Soviet Empire. The point is wrong: rather, there is NATO enlargement, and the goal is to put Ukraine in the orbit of the West and away from Russia.

This ties up very clearly with points that I and Sachs made. That is,

The U.S. gains power by (1) making sure that other countries remain dependent on it by using the dollar as a reserve currency, (2) using that dependence to attain more debt and thus pay for a very expensive military (i.e., the military industrial complex), which (3) is being used to coerce dozens of countries and encircle both Russia and China, because that's what makes (1) possible.

So, you see, I have been doing the complete opposite of tap dancing around this subject. If any, I've been raising what several has been tap dancing around: this is not so much an unprovoked attack from a "crazy SOB" but a reaction to provocation from other even stronger "crazy SOBs". The same professor repeats his points here:

[url]https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine[/url] ([url]https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine[/url])

Quote
The political scientist John Mearsheimer has been one of the most famous critics of American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War. Perhaps best known for the book he wrote with Stephen Walt, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy,” Mearsheimer is a proponent of great-power politics—a school of realist international relations that assumes that, in a self-interested attempt to preserve national security, states will preëmptively act in anticipation of adversaries. For years, Mearsheimer has argued that the U.S., in pushing to expand NATO eastward and establishing friendly relations with Ukraine, has increased the likelihood of war between nuclear-armed powers and laid the groundwork for Vladimir Putin’s aggressive position toward Ukraine. Indeed, in 2014, after Russia annexed Crimea, Mearsheimer wrote that “the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for this crisis.”


And this is not an isolated. We're looking at a country that has a long history of employing false flags and engaging in all sorts of provocation for strategic and economic advantages:

[url]https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/[/url] ([url]https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/[/url])

There's a lot more where that came from, from the NS Archives at GWU to the Pentagon Papers to works like Chalmers Johnson's Blowback to Pilger's documentaries to various papers by Chomsky and others. That's also why claims made by even former Presidents of the U.S. can't be ignored easily:

[url]https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/[/url] ([url]https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/[/url])

See also color revolutions taking place in various countries during the last two decades or more.

Might this also explain Pilger's points about possible flashpoints in Asia?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#[/url])

[url]https://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china[/url] ([url]https://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china[/url])

Quote
When the United States, the world’s biggest military power, decided that China, the second largest economic power, was a threat to its imperial dominance, two-thirds of US naval forces were transferred to Asia and the Pacific. This was the ‘pivot to Asia', announced by President Barack Obama in 2011. China, which in the space of a generation had risen from the chaos of Mao Zedong's ‘Cultural Revolution’ to an economic prosperity that has seen more than 500 million people lifted out of poverty, was suddenly the United States's new enemy.

The build-up of naval forces would reinforce the US's already overwhelmingly superior military position in the region. Seldom referred to in the Western media, 400 American bases surround China with ships, missiles and troops, in an arc that extends from Australia north through the Pacific to Japan, Korea and across Eurasia to Afghanistan and India.


Do you also see the connections between such pivots and military build-up and what I and Sachs stated above? As not only China but Russia, Brazil, India, South Africa, and over forty countries become stronger economically, they will likely rely less on the dollar and prefer to use their own currencies and baskets of currencies for trade, as well as form bilateral relations and even economic blocs? As that happens, how will the U.S. continue borrowing and spending heavily to not only pay for its expensive military but to even maintain its economy?






This is what I mean about you going way off topic. No one is going to watch hour-long lectures or follow the seven links you post in response to a two-sentence explanation of a post. There are other forums where you might find more engagement on those topics if that's what you seek.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 15, 2022, 01:41:48 PM
...
But I've been doing the opposite of evading the subject. If any, I think the majority were doing that by believing that this is a simple case of a "crazy SOB" invading a country to bring back the Soviet Empire. It's explained in the first paragraph here:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine)
The counterclaim is that the attack was provoked by the West attempting to expand its power by pulling in countries near Russia to its orbit. If you read the rest of the article plus the sources I provided in earlier messages, then you will see that not only have I been addressing what many want to avoid but I've been providing multiple sources to explain them.
I think what Mearsheimer said makes sense because the U.S. has been doing such for many decades, and to countries ranging from the Philippines to Iraq. How can one discount what happened in Ukraine from 2004 onward?

 

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2e/ef/63/2eef6340c8b566e193ab42be6d3910a5.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 15, 2022, 04:07:05 PM
To quote a certain engineer ''The haggis is in the fire for sure. '' Russia just hit Poland with 2 missiles, destroyed part of a rail line that carried aid to ukraine and killed two farmers.

https://m.dailykos.com/softlaunch/stories/2022/11/15/2136338/-Russian-missiles-just-f-ing-hit-Poland

The claim is this was an accident, but a direct hit on a trainline seems hard to believe.

No one knows what will happen, but Poland is a NATO state and so an attack on it is an attack on NATO. One option is a no fly zone near the polish border that could involve NATO firing on Russian aircraft that get close.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 15, 2022, 04:26:31 PM
If Russia were going to escalate this doesn't strike me as the way they would do it. Destroying a railway and killing two farmers will not change their situation significantly but who knows


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 15, 2022, 04:37:34 PM
If Russia were going to escalate this doesn't strike me as the way they would do it. Destroying a railway and killing two farmers will not change their situation significantly but who knows

I think there's no way this was an intentional strike by Russia. They're not suicidal. It's 15 miles across the border, a massive and tragic screwup, but accidents happen in war.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2022, 05:32:07 PM
My gut feeling on this is I'd go with an accident. That is without having seen any reports into the incident though.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 15, 2022, 06:17:25 PM
Yeah, new reports say it's likely an accident given the poor status of Russia's military and the competence of it's forces. Also it might not have been a train track hit. Still it's a hit on a NATO member with fatalities. Something may happen.

Of course some might point out how many US drone strikes have killed non combatants and hit non military targets, which would be fair, but we usually hit the right country at least.

This might get sideshowed after all, but now is not a good time to be a Russian in Poland. Hostile acts against Russians in Poland could escalate matters in unpredictable ways.

Hmm, pooty did this to trigger attacks on Russians in Poland for some Machiavellian political reason?  Unlikely,  but as the thread says he's a 'crazy SOB'. (And that's being too polite.)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 16, 2022, 02:18:35 AM
It may not have been part of a Russian attack gone wrong. It potentially could have been a Ukraine missile defence battery attempting to take down incoming missiles. I don't know what air defence systems they have in place in that region, I am not saying it was Ukrainian, or Russian, merely saying that don't jump to conclusions. Even if it was Russian-launched, I very much doubt that it would be enough to trigger article 5.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 16, 2022, 09:04:23 AM
Yep, latest reports suggest the missile was Ukrainian in origin.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 16, 2022, 05:21:18 PM
Zelensky issuing Israel/ Saudi style "can we just drop this?" denial


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 12:16:15 AM
Of course, the slight flaw in all of that is Putin himself at one point wanted to join NATO and the countries that didn't want to join NATO that used to be part of the USSR that Putin has grabbed bits of. But hey, you keep going and only seeing half the picture.


The problem with joining NATO is that it essentially works for the U.S. If Russia were allowed to join, then it would be like part of an effective version of the UN Security Council, and the goal would be to keep the peace, especially when Third World countries are also allowed to participate and decisions are made based on votes.

Also, according to Mearsheimer, the idea that Putin wants to revive the USSR appears to be a narrative concocted by the West to justify making weak nations part of the U.S. orbit of power:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine)

What's more likely is that Russia has no reason to engage in aggression as it's part of BRICS and forty emerging markets that are now taking over the global economy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS)

OTOH, for the U.S., the rise of BRICS threatens the use of the dollar as a global reserve currency, and thus the ability of the country to borrow and spend heavily.

That's why, as the professor points out here:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

the West has been engaged in long-term destabilization and manipulation of countries surrounding not just Russia but also China. Pilger also explains similar in this documentary about a coming war on China:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

Both of these go back to Jeffrey Sachs' point about the military industrial complex:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmOePNsNFw0#)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 12:25:32 AM

This is what I mean about you going way off topic. No one is going to watch hour-long lectures or follow the seven links you post in response to a two-sentence explanation of a post. There are other forums where you might find more engagement on those topics if that's what you seek.

How is not having the patience to view hour-long lectures or giving evidence going off-topic?

I'll do you a favor and make it easier for you:

The U.S. has been engaged in manipulation, coercion, destabilization, etc., of many countries for years, and one of them involves Ukraine. It started around 2004 and went on in 2014, etc.

The U.S. is doing this because it needs other countries to keep using the dollar. That makes the dollar more valuable, and in turn allows the U.S. to borrow more money and spend.

That manipulation, etc., requires aggressive foreign policies and a strong military. That's why the U.S. has been following exceptionalism: the U.S. is always right. Anyone who questions it is wrong. That's also why it has to spend heavily (many times greater than the other countries combined) on its military.

Together with more than 700 military bases and installations worldwide, with around 400 used to surround countries like China and Russia, the U.S. needs to make sure that all of those countries continue to be dependent on the U.S. (i.e., keep using the dollar for trade). That's why NATO has been expanding since then. That's why experts like Kennan had been arguing since the late 1990s that if this path is pursued, there will be war.

Why? Because China and Russia, together with India, Brazil, South Africa, and over forty countries have become economically stronger the last three decades. More of them have been answering back at the U.S. and the West, have been supporting populist politicians who want the same, and prefer not the dollar but a basket of currencies for trade, as well as bilateral trade and new economic blocs.

For example, just recently Israel and Saudi Arabia said that they will continue remaining neutral, and so have countries like Malaysia, Singapore, and more.

Was that explanation easier for you?



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2022, 01:38:43 AM
Of course, the slight flaw in all of that is Putin himself at one point wanted to join NATO and the countries that didn't want to join NATO that used to be part of the USSR that Putin has grabbed bits of. But hey, you keep going and only seeing half the picture.

The problem with joining NATO is that it essentially works for the U.S. If Russia were allowed to join, then it would be like part of an effective version of the UN Security Council, and the goal would be to keep the peace, especially when Third World countries are also allowed to participate and decisions are made based on votes.

Also, according to Mearsheimer, the idea that Putin wants to revive the USSR appears to be a narrative concocted by the West to justify making weak nations part of the U.S. orbit of power:


That does not however change that Putin asked to join. Seems odd for someone worried about its eastward expansion. I have to be honest, in common with several other people I am not going to bother watching your videos. Your sources don't seem to be very good. I mean we were discussing battlefield situations and your reply was to link quotes from foreign policy experts. Don't see many of them in an ops room or on the ground commanding a battalion. I have no doubt that the people you are linking are intelligent and so forth, but I'll put my trust in the people I know on the ground who actually do these jobs currently and have plenty of real-world experience.

I am sorry, but you are seeing a small part of the picture and assuming you are seeing the whole. It's why you got so much wrong about the use of WMDs earlier (I am still trying to write a reply post explaining why it wouldn't go the way you think, but I really don't have enough time right now to write the essay sized document it would take to explain everything). There are a whole lot more factors to take into account than you are aware of.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 17, 2022, 08:11:49 AM
You guys are keeping this discussion admirably civil, despite disagreements, so nicely done there.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 17, 2022, 09:09:27 AM

This is what I mean about you going way off topic. No one is going to watch hour-long lectures or follow the seven links you post in response to a two-sentence explanation of a post. There are other forums where you might find more engagement on those topics if that's what you seek.

How is not having the patience to view hour-long lectures or giving evidence going off-topic?


The original post you were responding to read

"I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness."

Your response was to repeat your geopolitical theory again in full detail, with 7 or 8 links.

When I suggested you were off-topic, your response to my suggestion that you were off-topic was to restate your theory again. It has been repeated and rephrased maybe ten times in this thread?

It seems to me that you want to talk about what you want to talk about rather than following the flow of the conversation. Perhaps you should start your own off-topic thread, lay out your theory, and see if people are interested in discussing it. Or, as I suggested, find another forum to discuss this topic. badmovies.org, with it's dozens of regulars who are mostly interested in bad movies, seems like an odd choice of venue to carry out a deep discussion of political philosophy.

I get the gist of your argument. It has valid elements but sorry, I don't buy it as a catch-all to explain every geopolitical crisis. And I personally don't have the free time to discuss your theories in anything approaching the detail you present them.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 17, 2022, 01:04:06 PM
 :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 17, 2022, 01:07:50 PM
You guys are keeping this discussion admirably civil, despite disagreements, so nicely done there.

Ralphy was not civil to me.  That is understandable since he has so many "important points" to communicate.    :smile: :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:38:13 PM

That does not however change that Putin asked to join. Seems odd for someone worried about its eastward expansion. I have to be honest, in common with several other people I am not going to bother watching your videos. Your sources don't seem to be very good. I mean we were discussing battlefield situations and your reply was to link quotes from foreign policy experts. Don't see many of them in an ops room or on the ground commanding a battalion. I have no doubt that the people you are linking are intelligent and so forth, but I'll put my trust in the people I know on the ground who actually do these jobs currently and have plenty of real-world experience.

I am sorry, but you are seeing a small part of the picture and assuming you are seeing the whole. It's why you got so much wrong about the use of WMDs earlier (I am still trying to write a reply post explaining why it wouldn't go the way you think, but I really don't have enough time right now to write the essay sized document it would take to explain everything). There are a whole lot more factors to take into account than you are aware of.


I think you're ignoring the big picture. The question isn't whether or not he wanted to join NATO but why. Did Putin think that some other country was threatening Russia, which is why he wanted to join the Western alliance?

NATO was set up to counter anyone who wanted to attack them, and the only threat that time was the Soviet Union.

But there has been no Soviet Union for decades, so what is threatening them?

They have been in operations the Middle East, Central Asia, Africa, and elsewhere, and these places in no way threaten them. Similarly, the U.S. has been in operations in many parts of the world, and none of them threaten the U.S. directly. Why are they doing this?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YR2TxHkb4c#)

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8rQWh_qtc#)

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amusB9j7Oz4#)

Here's my answer: it's likely that NATO doesn't work with the U.S. as a member but that the U.S. leads NATO, as many of its members still rely on the country with the most expensive military in the world.

Why is that military so expensive? According to its government, they need to defend the "freedoms" of the "American people" against those who oppose "freedoms." Who are they? Russia is not Communist. One of the major trading partners of the U.S. is China. Many of the countries that the U.S. coerces, manipulates, etc., are not immediate threats to them.

In short, the U.S. and NATO have been expanding not to counter security threats against them but economic threats. Russia is part of BRICS and forty emerging markets, and they are growing stronger.

If Russia were to apply to join NATO (just like Turkey), and so did many other countries that aren't even connected to the North Atlantic, then it would become like a UN Security Council, but this time with weaker nations having a say.

And that won't happen because that very much works against the very nature of the organization, which is a U.S.-led alliance and that acts not only as a shield to protect the U.S. but to bring aggression closer to Russian borders.

Finally, I don't understand how my sources aren't good. The definition of WMDs clearly involves explosives. It is accepted by historians and experts worldwide that the U.S. used those and the absurd claim that Saddam supported terrorists to attack Iraq. Also, why are you looking for ground commanders as experts? That makes no sense at all, as these are geopolitical events.






Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:39:41 PM
You guys are keeping this discussion admirably civil, despite disagreements, so nicely done there.

Only one isn't, and I can't find an ignore function in this board. But it looks like he's behaving now.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:46:41 PM
The original post you were responding to read

"I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness."

Your response was to repeat your geopolitical theory again in full detail, with 7 or 8 links.

When I suggested you were off-topic, your response to my suggestion that you were off-topic was to restate your theory again. It has been repeated and rephrased maybe ten times in this thread?

It seems to me that you want to talk about what you want to talk about rather than following the flow of the conversation. Perhaps you should start your own off-topic thread, lay out your theory, and see if people are interested in discussing it. Or, as I suggested, find another forum to discuss this topic. badmovies.org, with it's dozens of regulars who are mostly interested in bad movies, seems like an odd choice of venue to carry out a deep discussion of political philosophy.

I get the gist of your argument. It has valid elements but sorry, I don't buy it as a catch-all to explain every geopolitical crisis. And I personally don't have the free time to discuss your theories in anything approaching the detail you present them.



You wrote that you can't go through hour-long lectures or read multiple sources, so I explained the point to you briefly. That should have made you realize that I wasn't tap-dancing, and that my point is directly related to this thread. To recap, the "crazy SOB" attacked Ukraine and held on to areas dominated by Russians because of what happened before he attacked. I trust that I don't have to explain what happened again.

Now, you are shifting your argument and stating that I'm on-topic, but that some of the elements in my theory are not valid. Which ones are you talking about?





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:48:39 PM
Ralphy was not civil to me.  That is understandable since he has so many "important points" to communicate.    :smile: :thumbup:

You post memes, laugh, and then post them again. How is that part of being civil or even rational?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:50:41 PM
"The war in Ukraine has a great deal to do with the American intention to push NATO into Ukraine, and across the Black Sea, into Georgia. This is a narrative that the US doesn't want the people to know, but it's reality." — Professor Jeffrey Sachs

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1586768335739428864



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 07:53:35 PM
The background of that "crazy SOB's" actions:

"When the truth slips into the Western-NATO media...
This article is 8 years old..."

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1586801539364044800 (https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1586801539364044800)

"It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict)

Quote
When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

Putin bit back, taking a leaf out of the US street-protest playbook – even though, as in Kiev, the protests that spread from Crimea to eastern Ukraine evidently have mass support. But what had been a glorious cry for freedom in Kiev became infiltration and insatiable aggression in Sevastopol and Luhansk.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 17, 2022, 08:02:17 PM
From Mint Press, retweeted by Sarah:

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1587524826729631744 (https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1587524826729631744)

"'Stop provoking nuclear war with Russia!'

'You overthrew the legitimate [government in] Ukraine in 2014!'

Obama's speech is interrupted by anti-war protestors in Detroit."

From John Pilger:

https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1585568751273082880 (https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1585568751273082880)

"The US takes yet another provocative step towards war with Russia, in which Ukraine is an expendable pawn. Remember Iraq, Libya and its many expendables."

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/10/27/ukra-o27.html (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/10/27/ukra-o27.html)

(https://www.wsws.org/asset/b6e2e14b-2493-4820-aeab-4b4fa3469ab4?rendition=image1280)

From Pilger, referring to his 2014 article:

https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1573592480573956096 (https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1573592480573956096)

"In Ukraine, the US is dragging us towards war with Russia"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/13/ukraine-us-war-russia-john-pilger)

Quote
Every year the American historian William Blum publishes his "updated summary of the record of US foreign policy" which shows that, since 1945, the US has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments, many of them democratically elected; grossly interfered in elections in 30 countries; bombed the civilian populations of 30 countries; used chemical and biological weapons; and attempted to assassinate foreign leaders.

...

Like the ruins of Iraq and Afghanistan, Ukraine has been turned into a CIA theme park – run personally by CIA director John Brennan in Kiev, with dozens of "special units" from the CIA and FBI setting up a "security structure" that oversees savage attacks on those who opposed the February coup. Watch the videos, read the eye-witness reports from the massacre in Odessa this month. Bussed fascist thugs burned the trade union headquarters, killing 41 people trapped inside. Watch the police standing by.


Finally, in reference to Scott Ritter's article:

https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1573258612318814213 (https://twitter.com/johnpilger/status/1573258612318814213)

"How NATO has brought the world to the brink of WW3. Read this and understand the difference between perception and facts:"

"SCOTT RITTER: Reaping the Whirlwind"

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/22/scott-ritter-reaping-the-whirlwind/ (https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/22/scott-ritter-reaping-the-whirlwind/)

Quote
"A permanent member of the United Nations Security Council invaded its neighbor, attempted to erase a sovereign state from the map,” Biden said. “Russia has shamelessly violated the core tenets of the United Nations Charter.”

History, however, is a harsh mistress, where facts become inconvenient to perception. When viewed through the prism of historical fact, the narrative being promulgated by Biden becomes flipped. The reality is that since the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991, the U.S. and its European allies have been conspiring to subjugate Russia in an effort to ensure that the Russian people are never again able to mount a geopolitical challenge to an American hegemony defined by a “rules based international order” that had been foisted on the world in the aftermath of the Second World War.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 17, 2022, 10:25:11 PM
Ralphy was not civil to me.  That is understandable since he has so many "important points" to communicate.    :smile: :thumbup:

You post memes, laugh, and then post them again. How is that part of being civil or even rational?


Perhaps not rational, but civil.    (https://media.tenor.com/XjnZVoMpvfoAAAAM/kawaii-cat.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 17, 2022, 11:44:38 PM
Even if it was a ukranian anti-missile that hit Poland this would not have happened if Russia was not firing missiles at Ukrainian targets.

Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine the defender, barring gross negligence on Ukraine's part, abd I don't see a lot of incompetence on Ukraine's part in this war, the responsibility for this still lies at pooty's doorstep.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 18, 2022, 12:41:37 AM
^ that would have been a better response that Zelensky's


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 18, 2022, 03:25:51 AM

That does not however change that Putin asked to join. Seems odd for someone worried about its eastward expansion. I have to be honest, in common with several other people I am not going to bother watching your videos. Your sources don't seem to be very good. I mean we were discussing battlefield situations and your reply was to link quotes from foreign policy experts. Don't see many of them in an ops room or on the ground commanding a battalion. I have no doubt that the people you are linking are intelligent and so forth, but I'll put my trust in the people I know on the ground who actually do these jobs currently and have plenty of real-world experience.

I am sorry, but you are seeing a small part of the picture and assuming you are seeing the whole. It's why you got so much wrong about the use of WMDs earlier (I am still trying to write a reply post explaining why it wouldn't go the way you think, but I really don't have enough time right now to write the essay sized document it would take to explain everything). There are a whole lot more factors to take into account than you are aware of.


I think you're ignoring the big picture. The question isn't whether or not he wanted to join NATO but why. Did Putin think that some other country was threatening Russia, which is why he wanted to join the Western alliance?

NATO was set up to counter anyone who wanted to attack them, and the only threat that time was the Soviet Union.

But there has been no Soviet Union for decades, so what is threatening them?

They have been in operations the Middle East, Central Asia, Africa, and elsewhere, and these places in no way threaten them. Similarly, the U.S. has been in operations in many parts of the world, and none of them threaten the U.S. directly. Why are they doing this?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YR2TxHkb4c#[/url])

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU8rQWh_qtc#[/url])

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amusB9j7Oz4#[/url])

Here's my answer: it's likely that NATO doesn't work with the U.S. as a member but that the U.S. leads NATO, as many of its members still rely on the country with the most expensive military in the world.

Why is that military so expensive? According to its government, they need to defend the "freedoms" of the "American people" against those who oppose "freedoms." Who are they? Russia is not Communist. One of the major trading partners of the U.S. is China. Many of the countries that the U.S. coerces, manipulates, etc., are not immediate threats to them.

In short, the U.S. and NATO have been expanding not to counter security threats against them but economic threats. Russia is part of BRICS and forty emerging markets, and they are growing stronger.

If Russia were to apply to join NATO (just like Turkey), and so did many other countries that aren't even connected to the North Atlantic, then it would become like a UN Security Council, but this time with weaker nations having a say.

And that won't happen because that very much works against the very nature of the organization, which is a U.S.-led alliance and that acts not only as a shield to protect the U.S. but to bring aggression closer to Russian borders.

Finally, I don't understand how my sources aren't good. The definition of WMDs clearly involves explosives. It is accepted by historians and experts worldwide that the U.S. used those and the absurd claim that Saddam supported terrorists to attack Iraq. Also, why are you looking for ground commanders as experts? That makes no sense at all, as these are geopolitical events.







TL:DR. Looked at the first lines then just jumped to the last paragraph. I can see why you'd think I am not seeing the big picture, but the irony is that you are concentrating so hard on just one part of it that you really aren't seeing the full thing yourself.

The definition of WMDs doesn't clearly include explosives. There is no definition of WMDs so you are incorrect here. In military circles, they are used though to refer to nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as I pointed out before. I was not just going on about technicalities and semantics though. What I am meaning here however is how you'd believe they would be used, their effectiveness and so on. If they had been used in Ukraine the way you suggested earlier in a theoretical American invasion, you'd have violated LOAC, specifically the section on Proportionality and much of your military force would be guilty of war crimes. Bit hard to fight a war when your commanders and pilots are all behind bars. I suspect the general you quoted was very well aware of this and was more speaking to the home crowd (for example if anyone asks me what I think is the best-trained military in the world, I always tell them theirs is. I don't really mean that though, I am just being nice). Gulf War One, by the way, took weeks of psychological warfare and special forces operations to allow it to go down the way it did (oh, I did nearly wet myself laughing when you said I should study how that went). The use of explosives helped, but I think you'll find if you study it yourself, you'll find the outflanking attack was what made it so successful with the other parts being contributory factors. The Iraqi command system simply couldn't react fast enough because of their poor communications (an example of this is that Saddam did not let most of his forces have radio communications in case they used it to plot against him. The Iraqi forces found themselves cut off, and attacked from unexpected directions. Even then, the fight was not over in a day.

I look for ground commanders as experts in the previous situation because we were talking about a battlefield situation. We were not discussing a geopolitical event. Your reply to comments about the battlefield were to bring in quotes from people who study foreign affairs. If you don't understand why that is important, then yeah I can see why you'd post up entirely the wrong class of experts and that is why I am not reading all your posts or watching your videos. I consider my time too precious to waste on that. Maybe if you focused your points a bit more and made things more concise it might help. Then again, several people have commented on that, and you've denied it (American exceptionalism in action I guess?). I use experts relevant to the situation. If I want to know about a ground fight, then I'll speak to the army, if I want to know about naval operations, I'll chat with the navy. If I want to know about air operations, well that is my speciality. If I want to do research, then I know that takes more than simply watching a few youtube videos.

As to why Putin wanted to join NATO, I would guess that he was looking to establish Russia's place in the world order. Ultimately though this is the problem I see with much of what you post. You seem to think that everything that happens in the world is a reaction to America and what it has done, rather than seeing it as a much more complex and intertwined thing. Expand your sources a bit. Use ones that are actually relevant to that part of the discussion. While the US is very important to the world order, the world itself does not revolve around it. Is the west entirely innocent in this situation? Hell no. Have they done things to provoke the east? Absolutely. If you think Putin is just reacting to what happening around him though, rather than instigating events and using things to his own advantage though, you are very, very, very much mistaken.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 18, 2022, 03:58:16 AM
^ And THAT is why civilians should not argue this topic with a soldier!  :bouncegiggle:



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 18, 2022, 09:10:53 AM
Ultimately though this is the problem I see with much of what you post. You seem to think that everything that happens in the world is a reaction to America and what it has done, rather than seeing it as a much more complex and intertwined thing... While the US is very important to the world order, the world itself does not revolve around it. Is the west entirely innocent in this situation? Hell no. Have they done things to provoke the east? Absolutely. If you think Putin is just reacting to what happening around him though, rather than instigating events and using things to his own advantage though, you are very, very, very much mistaken.

This is where I stand, too.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 18, 2022, 10:11:14 AM
One sign for optimism I have discovered is that young people in Russia are connected online to the world and know what their leadership is, know how out of step their society is with the rights people in the west have, and have shown bravery in taking a stand to change things. I wish the protests against Putin were better known, because they definitely are happening inside Russia. I know it's said Russia will never be free, and mostly a change in leadership has traditionally brought more of the same oppression, but just maybe there might finally be a tipping point in sight and a reason to hope that things will get better there so that Russians will someday enjoy those freedoms we take for granted.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 18, 2022, 07:46:00 PM

Perhaps not rational, but civil.    (https://media.tenor.com/XjnZVoMpvfoAAAAM/kawaii-cat.gif)

You're not being civil when you post memes repeatedly and then make fun of the forum members you're addressing.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 18, 2022, 08:28:19 PM

TL:DR. Looked at the first lines then just jumped to the last paragraph. I can see why you'd think I am not seeing the big picture, but the irony is that you are concentrating so hard on just one part of it that you really aren't seeing the full thing yourself.

The definition of WMDs doesn't clearly include explosives. There is no definition of WMDs so you are incorrect here. In military circles, they are used though to refer to nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as I pointed out before. I was not just going on about technicalities and semantics though. What I am meaning here however is how you'd believe they would be used, their effectiveness and so on. If they had been used in Ukraine the way you suggested earlier in a theoretical American invasion, you'd have violated LOAC, specifically the section on Proportionality and much of your military force would be guilty of war crimes. Bit hard to fight a war when your commanders and pilots are all behind bars. I suspect the general you quoted was very well aware of this and was more speaking to the home crowd (for example if anyone asks me what I think is the best-trained military in the world, I always tell them theirs is. I don't really mean that though, I am just being nice). Gulf War One, by the way, took weeks of psychological warfare and special forces operations to allow it to go down the way it did (oh, I did nearly wet myself laughing when you said I should study how that went). The use of explosives helped, but I think you'll find if you study it yourself, you'll find the outflanking attack was what made it so successful with the other parts being contributory factors. The Iraqi command system simply couldn't react fast enough because of their poor communications (an example of this is that Saddam did not let most of his forces have radio communications in case they used it to plot against him. The Iraqi forces found themselves cut off, and attacked from unexpected directions. Even then, the fight was not over in a day.

I look for ground commanders as experts in the previous situation because we were talking about a battlefield situation. We were not discussing a geopolitical event. Your reply to comments about the battlefield were to bring in quotes from people who study foreign affairs. If you don't understand why that is important, then yeah I can see why you'd post up entirely the wrong class of experts and that is why I am not reading all your posts or watching your videos. I consider my time too precious to waste on that. Maybe if you focused your points a bit more and made things more concise it might help. Then again, several people have commented on that, and you've denied it (American exceptionalism in action I guess?). I use experts relevant to the situation. If I want to know about a ground fight, then I'll speak to the army, if I want to know about naval operations, I'll chat with the navy. If I want to know about air operations, well that is my speciality. If I want to do research, then I know that takes more than simply watching a few youtube videos.

As to why Putin wanted to join NATO, I would guess that he was looking to establish Russia's place in the world order. Ultimately though this is the problem I see with much of what you post. You seem to think that everything that happens in the world is a reaction to America and what it has done, rather than seeing it as a much more complex and intertwined thing. Expand your sources a bit. Use ones that are actually relevant to that part of the discussion. While the US is very important to the world order, the world itself does not revolve around it. Is the west entirely innocent in this situation? Hell no. Have they done things to provoke the east? Absolutely. If you think Putin is just reacting to what happening around him though, rather than instigating events and using things to his own advantage though, you are very, very, very much mistaken.

I think you're referring to yourself. Notice how you keep talking about WMDs and not about the claim that Saddam was funding terrorists.

The definition is given here:

https://www.dhs.gov/topics/weapons-mass-destruction (https://www.dhs.gov/topics/weapons-mass-destruction)

https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/ (https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/)

So it's clear that it can consist of any material that "can harm a large number of people." Hence, "mass destruction." I think it's safe to say that MOABs are included.

https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2001732840/ (https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2001732840/)

I think you're trying to limit it to biological and chemical so that you can argue that the U.S. has no WMDs.

Relying on ground commanders is ridiculous as this topic is essentially about a geopolitical event. Why did the "crazy SOB" do it? Why is he referred to as a "crazy SOB"? I've been trying to answer that. You seem to be interested in such only if you like the answers.

As for Russia's place, I think that's already known, but I think your ground-commanding experts will not understand that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS)

TL-DR - Russia is part of emerging economies, including Brazil, India, China, South Africa, and over forty countries (including Ukraine!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_market (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_market)

and they are taking over the global economy not militarily but economically. That's why "the world itself does not revolve around [the U.S.]".

"[T]he [U.S.] is very important to the world order" because it's part of G7, and its main rival is BRICS and emerging markets: around forty countries. In addition, the U.S. dollar is the main reserve currency of the same "world order." Therefore, the U.S. must use over 700 military bases and installations on a global scale to preserve that "order." I think that's what you mean, and something your ground commanders will understand. Here's the part that you won't mention:

When countries become stronger economically, then they start moving away from the dollar. Instead, they use their own currencies or a basket of currencies from which they can have special drawing rights from multinational lending institutions. They can also have bilateral trade, form their own economic blocs, and even form their own, i.e., away from the IMF-WB, which is controlled by the U.S.

That goes against the U.S. because it decreases the country's ability to continue borrowing and spending indefinitely. Recall that it's been doing this on an incredible scale since the early 1980s, which is why its total debt levels have now reached around $70 trillion, with around $170 trillion in unfunded liabilities. I'm told that the debt is mathematically impossible to pay, and that the U.S. has to keep borrowing just to pay for part of the interest.

That's why the U.S. has to spend heavily on its military and use it on a global scale, with at least 400 military installations needed to encircle China. And it's part of foreign policies needed to coerce, weaken, destabilize, and even attack other countries perceived as a threat to "freedom and democracy." This includes not only what happened in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014 but also NATO enlargement as seen in countries near Russia plus U.S. and NATO "police action" in various parts of the world.

So, you see, I'm only completing your argument.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 18, 2022, 08:30:36 PM

Perhaps not rational, but civil.    (https://media.tenor.com/XjnZVoMpvfoAAAAM/kawaii-cat.gif)

You're not being civil when you post memes repeatedly and then make fun of the forum members you're addressing.



I think ralfy may have a case here. He's made it clear that posting pictures without comment when quoting him bothers him, so no reason to do it except to try to get under his skin. That said, I have no idea what the kitten chewing its paw is meant to convey. It doesn't seem insulting on its face.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 18, 2022, 08:33:01 PM
^ And THAT is why civilians should not argue this topic with a soldier!  :bouncegiggle:




How did you know that I and others aren't ex-military? And how does one prove anything about oneself in forums where verification of identification and bios aren't required?

Meanwhile, is anyone reminded of von Clausewitz? There's an entertaining discussion on that from movies like Crimson Tide:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hur6LcyuTuU#)

But Ramsey himself lays it straight: he's just a simple-minded SOB. He's ordered to push a button, and does so.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 18, 2022, 08:53:50 PM
One sign for optimism I have discovered is that young people in Russia are connected online to the world and know what their leadership is, know how out of step their society is with the rights people in the west have, and have shown bravery in taking a stand to change things. I wish the protests against Putin were better known, because they definitely are happening inside Russia. I know it's said Russia will never be free, and mostly a change in leadership has traditionally brought more of the same oppression, but just maybe there might finally be a tipping point in sight and a reason to hope that things will get better there so that Russians will someday enjoy those freedoms we take for granted.


The tipping point involves young people going against their leaders, including not just Putin but also Biden, and even former ones, like Obama and Bush, and not just for Ukraine but also for Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other countries. And not just those attacked but even those manipulated, from several in South America and Africa to countries like the Philippines:

http://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1587524826729631744 (http://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1587524826729631744)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 18, 2022, 09:55:09 PM
"US Empire Views Ukrainians And Russians As Lab Rats For Weapons Testing"

https://caitlinjohnstone.substack.com/p/us-empire-views-ukrainians-and-russians (https://caitlinjohnstone.substack.com/p/us-empire-views-ukrainians-and-russians)

Quote
News that the west is using Ukraine to test weapons systems for future wars aligns with recent comments by the commander of the US nuclear arsenal that the proxy war is a test run for a much bigger conflict that's on its way.

“This Ukraine crisis that we’re in right now, this is just the warmup,” said US STRATCOM head Charles Richard at a naval conference earlier this month. “The big one is coming. And it isn’t going to be very long before we’re going to get tested in ways that we haven’t been tested [in] a long time.”

The artile using the old title:

"Western Allies Look to Ukraine as a Testing Ground for Weapons"

https://archive.md/ynKrL#selection-391.0-391.62 (https://archive.md/ynKrL#selection-391.0-391.62)

Using the new title:

"For Western Weapons, the Ukraine War Is a Beta Test"

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 18, 2022, 10:36:46 PM
Perhaps not rational, but civil.    (https://media.tenor.com/XjnZVoMpvfoAAAAM/kawaii-cat.gif)
You're not being civil when you post memes repeatedly and then make fun of the forum members you're addressing.
I think ralfy may have a case here. He's made it clear that posting pictures without comment when quoting him bothers him, so no reason to do it except to try to get under his skin. That said, I have no idea what the kitten chewing its paw is meant to convey. It doesn't seem insulting on its face.

First, there was a comment: "Perhaps not rational, but civil."    
Second, fyi, the meme posted is not a repeat.
Third, as an attorney, you might look at all of the exchange between Ralfy and I before picking up any case.

EDIT: Oh! Ralfy, you're the member this buffoon is making fun of, nobody else, but the sweet kitty meme was intended as an olive branch of civility.  


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2022, 04:48:51 AM

TL:DR. Looked at the first lines then just jumped to the last paragraph. I can see why you'd think I am not seeing the big picture, but the irony is that you are concentrating so hard on just one part of it that you really aren't seeing the full thing yourself.

The definition of WMDs doesn't clearly include explosives. There is no definition of WMDs so you are incorrect here. In military circles, they are used though to refer to nuclear, chemical and biological weapons as I pointed out before. I was not just going on about technicalities and semantics though. What I am meaning here however is how you'd believe they would be used, their effectiveness and so on. If they had been used in Ukraine the way you suggested earlier in a theoretical American invasion, you'd have violated LOAC, specifically the section on Proportionality and much of your military force would be guilty of war crimes. Bit hard to fight a war when your commanders and pilots are all behind bars. I suspect the general you quoted was very well aware of this and was more speaking to the home crowd (for example if anyone asks me what I think is the best-trained military in the world, I always tell them theirs is. I don't really mean that though, I am just being nice). Gulf War One, by the way, took weeks of psychological warfare and special forces operations to allow it to go down the way it did (oh, I did nearly wet myself laughing when you said I should study how that went). The use of explosives helped, but I think you'll find if you study it yourself, you'll find the outflanking attack was what made it so successful with the other parts being contributory factors. The Iraqi command system simply couldn't react fast enough because of their poor communications (an example of this is that Saddam did not let most of his forces have radio communications in case they used it to plot against him. The Iraqi forces found themselves cut off, and attacked from unexpected directions. Even then, the fight was not over in a day.

I look for ground commanders as experts in the previous situation because we were talking about a battlefield situation. We were not discussing a geopolitical event. Your reply to comments about the battlefield were to bring in quotes from people who study foreign affairs. If you don't understand why that is important, then yeah I can see why you'd post up entirely the wrong class of experts and that is why I am not reading all your posts or watching your videos. I consider my time too precious to waste on that. Maybe if you focused your points a bit more and made things more concise it might help. Then again, several people have commented on that, and you've denied it (American exceptionalism in action I guess?). I use experts relevant to the situation. If I want to know about a ground fight, then I'll speak to the army, if I want to know about naval operations, I'll chat with the navy. If I want to know about air operations, well that is my speciality. If I want to do research, then I know that takes more than simply watching a few youtube videos.

As to why Putin wanted to join NATO, I would guess that he was looking to establish Russia's place in the world order. Ultimately though this is the problem I see with much of what you post. You seem to think that everything that happens in the world is a reaction to America and what it has done, rather than seeing it as a much more complex and intertwined thing. Expand your sources a bit. Use ones that are actually relevant to that part of the discussion. While the US is very important to the world order, the world itself does not revolve around it. Is the west entirely innocent in this situation? Hell no. Have they done things to provoke the east? Absolutely. If you think Putin is just reacting to what happening around him though, rather than instigating events and using things to his own advantage though, you are very, very, very much mistaken.

I think you're referring to yourself. Notice how you keep talking about WMDs and not about the claim that Saddam was funding terrorists.

The definition is given here:

https://www.dhs.gov/topics/weapons-mass-destruction (https://www.dhs.gov/topics/weapons-mass-destruction)

https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/ (https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/)

So it's clear that it can consist of any material that "can harm a large number of people." Hence, "mass destruction." I think it's safe to say that MOABs are included.

https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2001732840/ (https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2001732840/)

I think you're trying to limit it to biological and chemical so that you can argue that the U.S. has no WMDs.

Relying on ground commanders is ridiculous as this topic is essentially about a geopolitical event. Why did the "crazy SOB" do it? Why is he referred to as a "crazy SOB"? I've been trying to answer that. You seem to be interested in such only if you like the answers.

As for Russia's place, I think that's already known, but I think your ground-commanding experts will not understand that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS)

TL-DR - Russia is part of emerging economies, including Brazil, India, China, South Africa, and over forty countries (including Ukraine!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_market (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_market)

and they are taking over the global economy not militarily but economically. That's why "the world itself does not revolve around [the U.S.]".

"[T]he [U.S.] is very important to the world order" because it's part of G7, and its main rival is BRICS and emerging markets: around forty countries. In addition, the U.S. dollar is the main reserve currency of the same "world order." Therefore, the U.S. must use over 700 military bases and installations on a global scale to preserve that "order." I think that's what you mean, and something your ground commanders will understand. Here's the part that you won't mention:

When countries become stronger economically, then they start moving away from the dollar. Instead, they use their own currencies or a basket of currencies from which they can have special drawing rights from multinational lending institutions. They can also have bilateral trade, form their own economic blocs, and even form their own, i.e., away from the IMF-WB, which is controlled by the U.S.

That goes against the U.S. because it decreases the country's ability to continue borrowing and spending indefinitely. Recall that it's been doing this on an incredible scale since the early 1980s, which is why its total debt levels have now reached around $70 trillion, with around $170 trillion in unfunded liabilities. I'm told that the debt is mathematically impossible to pay, and that the U.S. has to keep borrowing just to pay for part of the interest.

That's why the U.S. has to spend heavily on its military and use it on a global scale, with at least 400 military installations needed to encircle China. And it's part of foreign policies needed to coerce, weaken, destabilize, and even attack other countries perceived as a threat to "freedom and democracy." This includes not only what happened in Ukraine in 2004 and 2014 but also NATO enlargement as seen in countries near Russia plus U.S. and NATO "police action" in various parts of the world.

So, you see, I'm only completing your argument.


Ah, I comment about how the US isn't the centre of the world and you respond by posting up how the US defines WMDs. Alas for you, the world is bigger. There is no legal definition of WMDs. You are still wrong. I haven't really mentioned anything about Saddam and WMDs as I don't see that particular argument as being relevant. Your bringing it up is merely a distraction technique and not a very good one, just as you commenting on me not mentioning something is simply to distract from you yourself not replying to certain elements. I could talk a lot about Saddam and WMDs (if you want to know more is good place to start is what weapons were used during the Iran/Iraq war and who supplied them) but it would just be further going off-topic. I will quote this though in relation to WMDs.

Quote
The most widely used definition of "weapons of mass destruction" is that of nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons (NBC) although there is no treaty or customary international law that contains an authoritative definition. Instead, international law has been used with respect to the specific categories of weapons within WMD, and not to WMD as a whole. While nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are regarded as the three major types of WMDs some analysts have argued that radiological materials as well as missile technology and delivery systems such as aircraft and ballistic missiles could be labeled as WMDs as well.


As to arguing that the US doesn't have WMDs, are you not aware you have the world's second-largest supply of nuclear weapons? I have mentioned nuclear weapons under WMDs so you while you are free to think that I am building up to claiming that the US has no WMDs is ultimately a conceit purely of your own invention and has no relevance to what I've said and not is backed up by anything I've mentioned.

For Russia's place in the world when it wanted to join NATO, well Russia was a mess. Putin believes it should be a major world power and was looking at ways of restoring that. Your attempt to jump topics and link it to the separate debate on ground commanders doesn't again really have any relevance in this context.

Yes, the BRIC economies are moving away from the dollar. This is a natural thing and is all part of a capitalist system. It happened before to other empires and their economies. it will happen again. My point is that you were trying to link it to as a reaction to what the US does rather than what those countries plan for themselves.

By continually mentioning ground commanders in irrelevant contexts you are showing that you still haven't figured out the using the right experts for the right situation thing. As I said before:

Quote
I look for ground commanders as experts in the previous situation because we were talking about a battlefield situation. We were not discussing a geopolitical event. Your reply to comments about the battlefield were to bring in quotes from people who study foreign affairs.

My ground commanders may or may not understand certain events. I wouldn't presume to judge them all the way you have. Some of them doubtless will, others won't, but they would understand the battlefield situation we were discussing when I mentioned them. I could be wrong, but I believe the technique of trying to link things I've mentioned to something unrelated in a seperate part of the argument to present your own argument as more rational would come under gaslighting. I've noticed throughout your posts, it is a technique you've used repeatedly when people directly refer to your posts. It isn't an uncommon thing for people with weak arguments to try and shore them up that way, although I haven't quite figured out if it is something you are doing accidentally or deliberately.

I could chat about the BRIC economies quite a lot, but I will limit it to saying that they have a long way to go. In many ways, they are still trying to recover from the banks crash. While they represent over 40% of the world's population and around a third of its land mass they account for slightly less than a quarter of global GDP and only 16% of international trade. I wish them luck in their growth and hope they manage not to get caught up clashing with each other. This however is way off-topic.

It has been suggested by a couple of people that it is time to shut down much of this thread, so in future I'll do my best to only respond to comments that are on topic. Well done on the moving away from just posting Youtube links that just make your post too long and that no one seems to be watching. I actually read your post this time and clicked on one of the links. Nice to see that you are learning. Congratulations.

Now to head in a direction that is actually more back on topic, I see India which has previously limited it condemnation of the Russian invasion seems to be hardening its stance. While still short of outright denouncing it (thanks to the trade links between both countries), it does show that the ground is shifting. Their stance is being reflected in other Asian states which had also previously stuck to a more neutral ground with the language India is using being repeated. How much of a difference this will make in the long term remains to be seen though.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 19, 2022, 11:25:13 AM

Third, as an attorney, you might look at all of the exchange between Ralfy and I before picking up any case.



I just said he has a case, not that he necessarily has a winning case. Nevertheless, I trust that the issue has been resolved by the parties outside of badmovies court. Back to discussion of Ukraine.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 19, 2022, 01:07:17 PM

Third, as an attorney, you might look at all of the exchange between Ralfy and I before picking up any case.
I just said he has a case, not that he necessarily has a winning case. Nevertheless, I trust that the issue has been resolved by the parties outside of badmovies court. Back to discussion of Ukraine.

You said he MAY have a case. 
Look at the exchanges from the last few pages and you will see I responded when I was quoted and have since done the same.  Some may be taking themselves too seriously, particularly for a Bad movies forum. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 09:35:27 PM
First, there was a comment: "Perhaps not rational, but civil."    
Second, fyi, the meme posted is not a repeat.
Third, as an attorney, you might look at all of the exchange between Ralfy and I before picking up any case.

EDIT: Oh! Ralfy, you're the member this buffoon is making fun of, nobody else, but the sweet kitty meme was intended as an olive branch of civility.  

You posted the dancing meme several times, and then laughed when you were asked to explain it. There is nothing civil about such behavior.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 10:25:47 PM
Ah, I comment about how the US isn't the centre of the world and you respond by posting up how the US defines WMDs. Alas for you, the world is bigger. There is no legal definition of WMDs. You are still wrong. I haven't really mentioned anything about Saddam and WMDs as I don't see that particular argument as being relevant. Your bringing it up is merely a distraction technique and not a very good one, just as you commenting on me not mentioning something is simply to distract from you yourself not replying to certain elements. I could talk a lot about Saddam and WMDs (if you want to know more is good place to start is what weapons were used during the Iran/Iraq war and who supplied them) but it would just be further going off-topic. I will quote this though in relation to WMDs.


No, my response concerning how the U.S. defines WMDs is in response to your claim that WMDs don't involve explosives. According to the U.S., it's anything that causes great harm to masses of people. An example of that would be MOABs.

My response to the claim that the U.S. isn't the center of the world is that the meaning of your phrase that the U.S. is "very important to the world order" shows that it is. That's why it's been attacking, coercing, and destabilizing many countries that are far away from it and pose no threat to it.

Finally, how are those two points connected? By showing that WMDs don't involve explosives, you can show that U.S. use of MOABs isn't part of that, and therefore what it does isn't criminal.

The problem is that your definition is countered by the U.S. itself.

As for Saddam and WMDs, don't waste your time. The U.S. didn't prove anything then, and hasn't until now. That's why even Bush made a joke of it:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35NA6TywAg#)

And then there's bit about Saddam supporting terrorists: terrorists who support Islamic fundamentalism, which is the opposite of what Saddam promoted, and the reason why the U.S. itself supported him in the past:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ (https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/)

Quote
The most widely used definition of "weapons of mass destruction" is that of nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons (NBC) although there is no treaty or customary international law that contains an authoritative definition. Instead, international law has been used with respect to the specific categories of weapons within WMD, and not to WMD as a whole. While nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are regarded as the three major types of WMDs some analysts have argued that radiological materials as well as missile technology and delivery systems such as aircraft and ballistic missiles could be labeled as WMDs as well.


Right, which is why the U.S. used MOABs. And yet they commit mass destruction, too.

You remind me of McNamara with his bean-counting during the Vietnam War: just focus on body counts. Never mind what the bodies are, as long as you reach your target goals, then, as Bush would say, "mission accomplished."

Quote

As to arguing that the US doesn't have WMDs, are you not aware you have the world's second-largest supply of nuclear weapons? I have mentioned nuclear weapons under WMDs so you while you are free to think that I am building up to claiming that the US has no WMDs is ultimately a conceit purely of your own invention and has no relevance to what I've said and not is backed up by anything I've mentioned.



You? Where did you get the idea that I'm Russian?

Russia and the U.S. are neck and neck:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/)

Would you like to look at numbers of military bases and installations next, plus what's deployed for each of them?

Quote

For Russia's place in the world when it wanted to join NATO, well Russia was a mess. Putin believes it should be a major world power and was looking at ways of restoring that. Your attempt to jump topics and link it to the separate debate on ground commanders doesn't again really have any relevance in this context.



Why would Russia want to be a major world power? It will just end up like the U.S., i.e., affected by the Triffin dilemma. Why do you think none of the members of BRICS want to use their currencies as a reserve and instead want SDRs?

And how on earth do ground commanders become experts on geopolitical events? You're not making any sense.

Quote

Yes, the BRIC economies are moving away from the dollar. This is a natural thing and is all part of a capitalist system. It happened before to other empires and their economies. it will happen again. My point is that you were trying to link it to as a reaction to what the US does rather than what those countries plan for themselves.



What else is the reason why the U.S. would have such a large military budget, set up over 700 military bases and installations worldwide, and commit so much mayhem that its own former President refers to it as the most warlike in modern history?

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

And if you're going to give some Reagan "evil empire" speech or Dubya's "either you are with us, or you are for the terrorists," then I'll be very disappointed.

Quote

By continually mentioning ground commanders in irrelevant contexts you are showing that you still haven't figured out the using the right experts for the right situation thing. As I said before:



Don't get confused: I wasn't referring to ground commanders. You were.

Quote
I look for ground commanders as experts in the previous situation because we were talking about a battlefield situation. We were not discussing a geopolitical event. Your reply to comments about the battlefield were to bring in quotes from people who study foreign affairs.


The decision to attack Iraq was not "a battlefield situation"!

Quote

My ground commanders may or may not understand certain events. I wouldn't presume to judge them all the way you have. Some of them doubtless will, others won't, but they would understand the battlefield situation we were discussing when I mentioned them. I could be wrong, but I believe the technique of trying to link things I've mentioned to something unrelated in a seperate part of the argument to present your own argument as more rational would come under gaslighting. I've noticed throughout your posts, it is a technique you've used repeatedly when people directly refer to your posts. It isn't an uncommon thing for people with weak arguments to try and shore them up that way, although I haven't quite figured out if it is something you are doing accidentally or deliberately.



Who are these "ground commanders"?

Quote

I could chat about the BRIC economies quite a lot, but I will limit it to saying that they have a long way to go. In many ways, they are still trying to recover from the banks crash. While they represent over 40% of the world's population and around a third of its land mass they account for slightly less than a quarter of global GDP and only 16% of international trade. I wish them luck in their growth and hope they manage not to get caught up clashing with each other. This however is way off-topic.



Yes, they will be responsible for half of the world output by 2050, but problems for G7 don't start only in 2049, especially when they're now deep in debt and face both demand destruction and even population aging.

I can't think of any other reason why the U.S. has been spending heavily on its military, especially in light of Ukraine:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-military-industrial-complexs-big-break-in-ukraine/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-military-industrial-complexs-big-break-in-ukraine/)

https://www.wionews.com/the-military-industrial-complex-the-ultimate-beneficiaries-of-ukraine-conflict-arms-supply-500972 (https://www.wionews.com/the-military-industrial-complex-the-ultimate-beneficiaries-of-ukraine-conflict-arms-supply-500972)

https://quincyinst.org/2022/04/29/the-ukraine-war-is-ballooning-americas-military-industrial-complex/ (https://quincyinst.org/2022/04/29/the-ukraine-war-is-ballooning-americas-military-industrial-complex/)

https://newrepublic.com/article/166233/ukraine-war-us-military-spending-biden (https://newrepublic.com/article/166233/ukraine-war-us-military-spending-biden)

Quote

It has been suggested by a couple of people that it is time to shut down much of this thread, so in future I'll do my best to only respond to comments that are on topic. Well done on the moving away from just posting Youtube links that just make your post too long and that no one seems to be watching. I actually read your post this time and clicked on one of the links. Nice to see that you are learning. Congratulations.



FWIW, those "Youtube links" consist of interviews with Chomsky, Sachs, and others, as well as lectures from political scientists and full-length documentaries from Pilger. They've also written articles, reports, and books on the same, so there's no need to congratulate me for going beyond certain sources. I've been there from the start.

Quote
Now to head in a direction that is actually more back on topic, I see India which has previously limited it condemnation of the Russian invasion seems to be hardening its stance. While still short of outright denouncing it (thanks to the trade links between both countries), it does show that the ground is shifting. Their stance is being reflected in other Asian states which had also previously stuck to a more neutral ground with the language India is using being repeated. How much of a difference this will make in the long term remains to be seen though.


See, that's what I mean. This is not a black-and-white issue about one "crazy SOB" and being condemned by non-crazy, non-SOBs. Rather, we are looking at multiple military and economic powers engaged in shifting as part of realpolitik.

That's why India and others are neutral, might shift from that, or might be neutral for some policies but not for others.

And the U.S. can do the same, right? After all, that's the same country that armed Saddam to counter forces that went against its man, the Shah, and then went against him, and then used his former men to work with Iraqis who don't support the U.S., and then that all fell apart. It also worked with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to arm mujahedeen, who eventually broke up into terrorists that went against it and drug lords and rapists who didn't but gained from the drug trade after the U.S. invaded. And then left after things fell apart, too.

That's the same U.S. that made peace with China to counter the Soviets, then accorded China MFN status, then started countering it after BRIC gained prominence, etc.

And all that are part of Bush's attempt to pivot to the Middle East followed by Obama's attempt to pivot to Asia, while NATO enlargement was taking place. That enlargement also involved color revolutions funded by the U.S., including in Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa)

See also Karatnycky for Foreign Affairs.

At this point, I hope that you realize that I've been on-topic from the start: I've been trying to explain what made the "crazy SOB" do it, and the answer lies way beyond the simpleton narrative that Putin simply wants to bring back the Soviet Empire.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 10:37:24 PM

I just said he has a case, not that he necessarily has a winning case. Nevertheless, I trust that the issue has been resolved by the parties outside of badmovies court. Back to discussion of Ukraine.

To recap, my point is that Putin attacked Ukraine not because he wants to revive some Soviet Empire but because he's countering NATO enlargement. That enlargement is part of a U.S. grand chessboard strategy of using a very expensive military, with over 700 military bases and installations, to encircle both Russia and China and coerce other countries to remain part of the U.S. orbit. That strategy is needed because by controlling other countries the latter will continue using the dollar as a reserve currency; also, oil will be priced in dollars. That usage and pricing keeps demands for dollars high, which in turn allows the U.S. to continue borrowing dollars and spending them, especially for a very expensive military. At the same time, that military is provided for by a military industrial complex, which earns heavily from arms sales, and with costs passed on to public debt.

The problem is that many of those countries became richer, and have been answering back at the U.S. They want to maintain trade with both Ukraine and Russia and remain neutral. Given that, the U.S. has to find out ways to break that neutrality. Meanwhile, it has to keep sending money to Ukraine even though more Americans are complaining that they are suffering economically and that the money should be going to help them.

Given that, I am told that there are some flaws in my argument (BTW, Pilger, Chomsky, Greenwald, Snowden, Sachs, Mearshiemer, and more, including right- and left-wing individuals and groups have similar, if not the same, argument). What are those flaws? Here are the elements:

1. the military industrial complex

2. the use of the dollar as a reserve currency and the Triffin dilemma

3. petrodollars

4. decades of coercion, destabilization, and attacks on other countries, plus support for all sorts of groups, regimes, and individuals, from Saddam to Pinochet

5. Reaganomics (neoliberalism) coupled with neoconservatism, from Reagan to the present

6. the color revolutions as part of No. 4, and events in Ukraine in 2004, 2014, etc.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 10:44:49 PM
You said he MAY have a case. 
Look at the exchanges from the last few pages and you will see I responded when I was quoted and have since done the same.  Some may be taking themselves too seriously, particularly for a Bad movies forum. 

If I'm not mistaken, this is part of an off-topic discussion section, and thus not part of banter that is natural for topics on bad movies.

Also, the event described is a very serious one, as some believe that it may lead to a third world war. Right now, it is leading to high inflation, and although offset by what might be revenge shopping (hence, a 5+ pct world GDP bounce) I don't know if the latter will last.

I get this feeling that you are not aware of either, which is why you choose to post memes and smiley icons.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 10:47:38 PM
From Florence Gaub: "We must not forget that Russians look like Europeans, but they are not Europeans. They are completely different in a cultural sense, they have a different attitude towards violence and death."

https://twitter.com/CanadianKitty1/status/1593530108543135744

Longer clip:

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 19, 2022, 10:50:46 PM
"German TV: We must not forget that Russians look like Europeans, but they are not Europeans. They are completely different in a cultural sense, they have a different attitude towards violence and death."

https://twitter.com/CanadianKitty1/status/1593530108543135744


Gee, and that from the Beastly Huns, eh? Dude, the Russians love their children too. Sting said so.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 19, 2022, 10:58:46 PM
From the wiki page about her:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Gaub

Quote
Florence Gaub (born 1977) is a Franco-German researcher, security expert and futurist who focuses on foresight based policy formation for international relations and security policy. She worked as deputy director at the European Union Institute for Security Studies (EUISS) in Paris February 2018 until May 2022[1] and since then as foresight advisor at the General Secretariat of the Council.[2]

...

With regard to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Gaub has been among the notable German female security experts[11] routinely commenting in the media and in particular German late night political talk shows. Furthermore, Gaub contributed to the understanding of the military strategy employed or the changing nature of war,[12] published in media such as Die Zeit, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Welt. An interview on 12 April 2022 on the show Markus Lanz she explained the considerable losses endured by the Russian military and societal tolerance levels of violence.[13] During this appearance, Gaub argued for a reassessment, stating that culturally Russian society does not prescribe to a liberal, post-modern sense of life, and views violence and death differently if compared to today's Germany.[14] Gaub detailed her theses on the need to rethink Europe's attitude or acceptance of violence in consequent writings in FAZ and Zeit and also clarified her quote in a debate setting for die Zeit, where she detailed her take on value-driven violent behaviour from domestic abuse to death penalty or loss of life by soldiers. Researchers such as Ksenia Krimer further explored this thesis in the FAZ, quoting domestic violence statistics and more.[15]

I guess the implication is that Russia isn't European (read: civilized?) in a cultural sense and thus must be dealt with harshly. I wonder if the same applies to the Chinese and some of the other non-European countries.

Finally, does this include the Ukrainians?




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 19, 2022, 11:49:51 PM
From the wiki page about her:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Gaub

Quote
Florence Gaub (born 1977) is a Franco-German researcher, security expert and futurist who focuses on foresight based policy formation for international relations and security policy. She worked as deputy director at the European Union Institute for Security Studies (EUISS) in Paris February 2018 until May 2022[1] and since then as foresight advisor at the General Secretariat of the Council.[2]

...

With regard to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine Gaub has been among the notable German female security experts[11] routinely commenting in the media and in particular German late night political talk shows. Furthermore, Gaub contributed to the understanding of the military strategy employed or the changing nature of war,[12] published in media such as Die Zeit, Süddeutsche Zeitung and Die Welt. An interview on 12 April 2022 on the show Markus Lanz she explained the considerable losses endured by the Russian military and societal tolerance levels of violence.[13] During this appearance, Gaub argued for a reassessment, stating that culturally Russian society does not prescribe to a liberal, post-modern sense of life, and views violence and death differently if compared to today's Germany.[14] Gaub detailed her theses on the need to rethink Europe's attitude or acceptance of violence in consequent writings in FAZ and Zeit and also clarified her quote in a debate setting for die Zeit, where she detailed her take on value-driven violent behaviour from domestic abuse to death penalty or loss of life by soldiers. Researchers such as Ksenia Krimer further explored this thesis in the FAZ, quoting domestic violence statistics and more.[15]

I guess the implication is that Russia isn't European (read: civilized?) in a cultural sense and thus must be dealt with harshly. I wonder if the same applies to the Chinese and some of the other non-European countries.

Finally, does this include the Ukrainians?




OK, I called those people and asked and they said to tell you the Chinese, yes, the Ukrainians, yes, but not those bastards in Lichtenstein!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 20, 2022, 12:21:29 AM
I got you figured out, ralfy, you're CIA, aren't you? You're sitting there giving us these inside warnings wearing your black suit and black tie and those special shoes for sneaking up on.... Wait that's what those punks in the FBI wear. What do spooks dress in? Oh! You're sitting there in a ball cap and dark glasses, nondescript T-shirt, trying to benevolently tip us all off with your covert intelligence. Hey, did I get it right? Please say I got it right!  :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 20, 2022, 12:31:37 AM
^ ER, you are on fire today!   :hot:

...If I'm not mistaken, this is part of an off-topic discussion section, and thus not part of banter that is natural for topics on bad movies.

Also, the event described is a very serious one, as some believe that it may lead to a third world war. Right now, it is leading to high inflation, and although offset by what might be revenge shopping (hence, a 5+ pct world GDP bounce) I don't know if the latter will last.

I get this feeling that you are not aware of either, which is why you choose to post memes and smiley icons.
It's still a bad movies forum.  Deep political discussions are perhaps better served elsewhere.  Certainly nothing to invest in or express anger about.  But feel free, it is a democracy. 

You can choose to hit a panic button, but I'd rather not.  "The event described"...?  Which event?  War in Ukraine?  The ascension of the United States?  German philosophies regarding Russians?  World War 3?  (Questions are merely rhetorical.) 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 20, 2022, 12:51:23 AM
Quote

To recap, my point is that Putin attacked Ukraine not because he wants to revive some Soviet Empire but because he's countering NATO enlargement


I agree with this and also that this war is abut the US and it's actions in Eastern Europe in general.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 20, 2022, 01:27:15 AM
Quote

To recap, my point is that Putin attacked Ukraine not because he wants to revive some Soviet Empire but because he's countering NATO enlargement


I agree with this and also that this war is abut the US and it's actions in Eastern Europe in general.

Driving more nations into nato and getting Germany to increase her military budget plus getting European nations to even talk about a European union military are not very wise ways to deal with an expanded nato.

In Europe people are better educated about world history than the typical American, and remember how Hitler started out seizing small neighboring states ,they also are educated about how well that worked. (It sucked, to be honest.)

As far as Pooty goes he is be very unpopular in Russia now. In fact I hear he's staying in a Bunker to avoid windows...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2022, 04:10:15 AM
Only going to bother responding to a few points here. The post is too long and rambling to address everything.


No, my response concerning how the U.S. defines WMDs is in response to your claim that WMDs don't involve explosives. According to the U.S., it's anything that causes great harm to masses of people. An example of that would be MOABs.

Still thinking that the US defines what WMDs are. I didn't say explosives weren't WMDs as nuclear weapons funnily enough are very explosive. I said they are not officially defined as WMD because there is no official designation of a WMD. It is just a mistake made by armchair generals. That however was just a side note to your assumptions on how such weapons would be used which I felt was a lot more important.

Finally, how are those two points connected? By showing that WMDs don't involve explosives, you can show that U.S. use of MOABs isn't part of that, and therefore what it does isn't criminal.

Maybe if MOABs were effective they might count. My point was (and this is the part you keep failing to understand, although as mentioned in a previous post it is a very minor point compared to the errors you made in how those weapons could be used) that there is no legal definition of WMD. Post as many links as you want, each country can define it differently and no centralised body has yet to give an official designation that will count beyond one country's borders. Using them by themselves isn't criminal, but where you use them is. Look up LOAC and The Law of Proportionality if you wish to know more.

As for Saddam and WMDs, don't waste your time. The U.S. didn't prove anything then, and hasn't until now. That's why even Bush made a joke of it:

Shame. If you'd looked into my points you might have discovered I was agreeing with you there. I have never said Saddam didn't support terrorists or that he had stockpiles of WMDs ready to use on the west. I never raised or really went into it beyond mentioning there was some stuff you might want to look into that if you liked studying that kind of thing, might just interest you. Check it out or not. Either way it doesn't really affect me. If you are thinking that in some way I was supporting the US in this matter, you are entirely wrong. I didn't believe the claims when they were made never mind waiting until after the invasion.

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Right, which is why the U.S. used MOABs. And yet they commit mass destruction, too.

And yet according to the US military's own reports into them, they didn't really achieve much and were rather ineffectual at taking out enemy troops and didn't have much effect even as a psychological weapon. Indeed there is some evidence that their inability to take out Taliban mountain strongholds increased their morale. The Russians have a nuclear weapon that can wipe out an entire country the size of Germany or France. MOAB is a cherry bomb next to that. Other countries have bigger conventional bombs. Time to move on.

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You? Where did you get the idea that I'm Russian?

Where have I said you are Russian? Do you suffer from hallucinations and often read things that aren't there, because multiple times you've made comments that just come out of nowhere referring to things that haven't been said.

Quote
Russia and the U.S. are neck and neck:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/)

I can't access your link, but the best estimates have Russia possessing roughly 500 more (5977 against 5428), meaning that Russia has more nuclear weapons. Much of what they have is smaller tactical ones (battlefield use), but at the top end of their arsenal, they have more powerful weapons than the US has, all in all giving them a greater range of tactical and strategic options.

Quote
Would you like to look at numbers of military bases and installations next, plus what's deployed for each of them?

You may not have noticed but you have already posted that multiple times already. It isn't going to add anything more than it has already.

Quote
Why would Russia want to be a major world power? It will just end up like the U.S., i.e., affected by the Triffin dilemma. Why do you think none of the members of BRICS want to use their currencies as a reserve and instead want SDRs?

You'd have to ask Putin why he wants it to be a major world power. My guess is it all comes down to his ego, national pride and his experiences when he was in East Germany when the communist block collapsed. I really believe much of his policies and how he has run things really goes back to that as a major formative event in his life. Perhaps the world isn't run by ivory tower intellectuals? Asking that question screams that you have missed much of history though as it is something countries repeatedly reach for. Think the BRIC nations aren't?

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And how on earth do ground commanders become experts on geopolitical events? You're not making any sense.

I didn't say they did. You are the one who replied about foreign policy experts when we were discussing ground warfare. We keep coming back to this point.

Quote
What else is the reason why the U.S. would have such a large military budget, set up over 700 military bases and installations worldwide, and commit so much mayhem that its own former President refers to it as the most warlike in modern history?

And if you're going to give some Reagan "evil empire" speech or Dubya's "either you are with us, or you are for the terrorists," then I'll be very disappointed.


Again with the number of bases worldwide. See my comment below about the military-industrial complex, and maybe sometime we could have a chat separate from this thread about why I think the US has such a large military budget (although when you compare it to the total US budget it is pretty damn small).

Quote
Don't get confused: I wasn't referring to ground commanders. You were.

I guess you missed your own multiple references to ground commanders then. I guess I am not the only one who has been skipping through your posts. I keep having to mention this to you and it doesn't seem to get through. I mentioned ground commanders when we were discussing ground warfare. You mentioned foreign policy experts. I'll ignore the rest of your stuff there, as it really is just more of the same. My point when it was first made still stands. You can keep trying to twist it away from that if you wish, but I will keep bringing it back to that.

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Who are these "ground commanders"?

Simple answer to that one. People who command troops on the ground.

I've cut out all the stuff about BRIC, because while I find it interesting it isn't really on topic. Again, if you want to discuss it, I am happy to do so elsewhere.

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I can't think of any other reason why the U.S. has been spending heavily on its military, especially in light of Ukraine:

I can think of one really important one, but to explain it, I'd have to know more about what you think the military-industrial complex is, in your own words rather than using quotes and outside sources. Even then I suspect I'd be wasting my time. You do too much reading of things that aren't there and taking one part of a conversation, then joining it to an entirely different part of a conversation for such a talk to be really worthwhile.

Quote
FWIW, those "Youtube links" consist of interviews with Chomsky, Sachs, and others, as well as lectures from political scientists and full-length documentaries from Pilger. They've also written articles, reports, and books on the same, so there's no need to congratulate me for going beyond certain sources. I've been there from the start.

I wasn't congratulating you on moving beyond those sources. I was congratulating you for not just posting up new Youtube links that merely result in big blank spaces in your posts that put people off of reading them.

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See, that's what I mean. This is not a black-and-white issue about one "crazy SOB" and being condemned by non-crazy, non-SOBs. Rather, we are looking at multiple military and economic powers engaged in shifting as part of realpolitik.

Everything you have posted says it is a black-and-white situation caused purely by the US and NATO. This is why I keep saying you are only seeing half the picture. This is something another reason why I've not clicked on most of your links and sources. I do not disagree with you that the actions of the west have contributed to this situation, however, I am also aware of what Putin has done and how he exploits the situation. If you are trying to show that it isn't a single issue topic, then I am sorry but you have failed very badly.

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That's why India and others are neutral, might shift from that, or might be neutral for some policies but not for others.

I would say India and others have been neutral because of the trade deals they have with Russia myself. It is a debatable point but one that would be for a different topic/forum.

Quote
At this point, I hope that you realize that I've been on-topic from the start: I've been trying to explain what made the "crazy SOB" do it, and the answer lies way beyond the simpleton narrative that Putin simply wants to bring back the Soviet Empire.

I am aware it is not as simple as Putin wanting to build a new empire. What I am trying to get through to you is that it isn't as simple as Putin has been pushed by the west. Ever wondered to yourself, why do these countries like Ukraine and the Baltic States want to join NATO? All your posts say this is entirely the west's fault (specifically the US). I see no sign of balanced reporting (although I do admit I may have missed it thanks to skimming over some of your posts) if that is what you are trying to do. Believe me, I am not some flag-waving American patriot. Hell, I am not even American. I've made more than one post on this forum criticising the US and its international actions. Doesn't mean I hate it or love it for that matter. I do recognise when it has done right and done wrong though and can call it out or blame it as the situation deserves and requires. It is no different in its actions really from any of the other empires that came before it, nor different from any that will come after it I suspect.

Apologies for not addressing all of your points. As mentioned before I simply don't have enough time.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 20, 2022, 10:01:54 AM
Quote

To recap, my point is that Putin attacked Ukraine not because he wants to revive some Soviet Empire but because he's countering NATO enlargement


I agree with this and also that this war is abut the US and it's actions in Eastern Europe in general.

lester, nothing you've ever written has left me more disappointed in you.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 20, 2022, 06:58:27 PM
Wow has this thread strayed...

As a minor point people refering to BRIC (Brazil Russia India China) might want to note that South Africa is now often counted in this, making it BRICS.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 20, 2022, 11:08:51 PM
ER - I would, however, not say Taiwan or Hong Kong is related to the US as China claims. That is not about keeping the US at bay its about weird cultural stuff and $$$

Also Putin was right about US assassinating gen Soleimani

https://www.yahoo.com/video/putin-outraged-assassination-iranian-general-150800464.html (https://www.yahoo.com/video/putin-outraged-assassination-iranian-general-150800464.html)


that could come back to haunt us and for what? the guy was an ally in the fight against ISIS. as if we need to curry more favor with the israelis and saudis


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 20, 2022, 11:53:12 PM
God please forbid any escalation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 21, 2022, 12:27:34 AM
I don't think this is 'divine retribution' but a pair of volcanoes just went active in Russia.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-20/2-volcanoes-rumble-into-action-in-russias-far-east (https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-20/2-volcanoes-rumble-into-action-in-russias-far-east)

They are in a remote and uninhabitated region of the far east.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 21, 2022, 08:52:56 AM
ER - I would, however, not say Taiwan or Hong Kong is related to the US as China claims. That is not about keeping the US at bay its about weird cultural stuff and $$$

Also Putin was right about US assassinating gen Soleimani

https://www.yahoo.com/video/putin-outraged-assassination-iranian-general-150800464.html (https://www.yahoo.com/video/putin-outraged-assassination-iranian-general-150800464.html)


that could come back to haunt us and for what? the guy was an ally in the fight against ISIS. as if we need to curry more favor with the israelis and saudis

Kudos for not applying a US-hegemony-is-the-cause-of-everything filter to China.

Putin is, of course, the ultimate hypocrite for complaining about another country's political assassinations. (Being a hypocrite doesn't mean you're wrong; Jeffrey Dahmer would be right to criticize Charlie Manson's morals).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 21, 2022, 05:59:24 PM
Putin pulled an assassination in England using a nerve agent that injured a non involved British citizen, and he was allowed to get away with it without consequences. This sort if thing just emboldened him over and over.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 01:17:51 AM
I got you figured out, ralfy, you're CIA, aren't you? You're sitting there giving us these inside warnings wearing your black suit and black tie and those special shoes for sneaking up on.... Wait that's what those punks in the FBI wear. What do spooks dress in? Oh! You're sitting there in a ball cap and dark glasses, nondescript T-shirt, trying to benevolently tip us all off with your covert intelligence. Hey, did I get it right? Please say I got it right!  :thumbup:

The CIA would say the opposite of my points.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 01:19:00 AM
^ ER, you are on fire today!   :hot:

...If I'm not mistaken, this is part of an off-topic discussion section, and thus not part of banter that is natural for topics on bad movies.

Also, the event described is a very serious one, as some believe that it may lead to a third world war. Right now, it is leading to high inflation, and although offset by what might be revenge shopping (hence, a 5+ pct world GDP bounce) I don't know if the latter will last.

I get this feeling that you are not aware of either, which is why you choose to post memes and smiley icons.
It's still a bad movies forum.  Deep political discussions are perhaps better served elsewhere.  Certainly nothing to invest in or express anger about.  But feel free, it is a democracy. 

You can choose to hit a panic button, but I'd rather not.  "The event described"...?  Which event?  War in Ukraine?  The ascension of the United States?  German philosophies regarding Russians?  World War 3?  (Questions are merely rhetorical.) 

Yes, in an off-topic discussion section, which is where we find this thread.

As for the the rest of your questions, I will address them in my subsequent (and last) posts on the matter.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 01:29:22 AM
Quote

To recap, my point is that Putin attacked Ukraine not because he wants to revive some Soviet Empire but because he's countering NATO enlargement


I agree with this and also that this war is abut the US and it's actions in Eastern Europe in general.

Driving more nations into nato and getting Germany to increase her military budget plus getting European nations to even talk about a European union military are not very wise ways to deal with an expanded nato.

In Europe people are better educated about world history than the typical American, and remember how Hitler started out seizing small neighboring states ,they also are educated about how well that worked. (It sucked, to be honest.)

As far as Pooty goes he is be very unpopular in Russia now. In fact I hear he's staying in a Bunker to avoid windows...

I think it's the U.S. that's driving more nations not only into NATO but into the U.S. sphere of influence. The reason has to do with ensuring continued use of the dollar as a reserve currency. That, in turn, allows the U.S. to create more debt and give part of it as military aid to countries that are being driven into that sphere.

Notice, too, that the U.S. has had a long history of playing both sides. For example, recall what happened during the first oil shock: Saudi Arabia cut supplies, protesting U.S. military aid to Israel. The solution of the U.S. was to provide military aid to Saudi Arabia as well in exchange for the Saudis pricing oil in dollars and then investing part of profits they won't use right away in Wall Street banks.

The results:

Oil supplies resumed.

The Saudis got their military aid, and Israel, too.

Since oil was priced in dollars, this made the world more dependent on U.S. dollars, and thus allowed the U.S. to borrow and spend heavily. That included the military aid sent to the Saudis, the Israelis, etc.

The dollars earned by the Saudis were put in Wall Street banks, which made the U.S. rich richer, and allowed the U.S. to provide more cheap loans (petrodollar recycling) to even more countries that it wanted to make part of its orbit of influence.

Bonus: the military aid taken from created loans was passed on as public debt to the gullible American masses. The defense industry became richer because they earned from arms sales to the U.S. government and to the foreign recipients of military aid.

The same masses didn't mind and care because they were too busy borrowing and spending heavily using the same petrodollar recycling scheme.

Finally, it looks like they're doing the same for Ukraine: aid provided by corrupt U.S. politicians are being deposited by corrupt Ukraine politicians in cryptocurrency, etc., then laundered. Both sets of politicians get their cut, while the aid is passed on as public debt again to the same gullible masses, this time complaining that the aid should have gone to them.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 01:52:45 AM
Only going to bother responding to a few points here. The post is too long and rambling to address everything.


No, my response concerning how the U.S. defines WMDs is in response to your claim that WMDs don't involve explosives. According to the U.S., it's anything that causes great harm to masses of people. An example of that would be MOABs.


Still thinking that the US defines what WMDs are. I didn't say explosives weren't WMDs as nuclear weapons funnily enough are very explosive. I said they are not officially defined as WMD because there is no official designation of a WMD. It is just a mistake made by armchair generals. That however was just a side note to your assumptions on how such weapons would be used which I felt was a lot more important.

Finally, how are those two points connected? By showing that WMDs don't involve explosives, you can show that U.S. use of MOABs isn't part of that, and therefore what it does isn't criminal.


Maybe if MOABs were effective they might count. My point was (and this is the part you keep failing to understand, although as mentioned in a previous post it is a very minor point compared to the errors you made in how those weapons could be used) that there is no legal definition of WMD. Post as many links as you want, each country can define it differently and no centralised body has yet to give an official designation that will count beyond one country's borders. Using them by themselves isn't criminal, but where you use them is. Look up LOAC and The Law of Proportionality if you wish to know more.

As for Saddam and WMDs, don't waste your time. The U.S. didn't prove anything then, and hasn't until now. That's why even Bush made a joke of it:


Shame. If you'd looked into my points you might have discovered I was agreeing with you there. I have never said Saddam didn't support terrorists or that he had stockpiles of WMDs ready to use on the west. I never raised or really went into it beyond mentioning there was some stuff you might want to look into that if you liked studying that kind of thing, might just interest you. Check it out or not. Either way it doesn't really affect me. If you are thinking that in some way I was supporting the US in this matter, you are entirely wrong. I didn't believe the claims when they were made never mind waiting until after the invasion.

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Right, which is why the U.S. used MOABs. And yet they commit mass destruction, too.


And yet according to the US military's own reports into them, they didn't really achieve much and were rather ineffectual at taking out enemy troops and didn't have much effect even as a psychological weapon. Indeed there is some evidence that their inability to take out Taliban mountain strongholds increased their morale. The Russians have a nuclear weapon that can wipe out an entire country the size of Germany or France. MOAB is a cherry bomb next to that. Other countries have bigger conventional bombs. Time to move on.

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You? Where did you get the idea that I'm Russian?


Where have I said you are Russian? Do you suffer from hallucinations and often read things that aren't there, because multiple times you've made comments that just come out of nowhere referring to things that haven't been said.

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Russia and the U.S. are neck and neck:

[url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/[/url] ([url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/09/03/country-with-most-nuclear-weapons/7845467001/[/url])


I can't access your link, but the best estimates have Russia possessing roughly 500 more (5977 against 5428), meaning that Russia has more nuclear weapons. Much of what they have is smaller tactical ones (battlefield use), but at the top end of their arsenal, they have more powerful weapons than the US has, all in all giving them a greater range of tactical and strategic options.

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Would you like to look at numbers of military bases and installations next, plus what's deployed for each of them?


You may not have noticed but you have already posted that multiple times already. It isn't going to add anything more than it has already.

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Why would Russia want to be a major world power? It will just end up like the U.S., i.e., affected by the Triffin dilemma. Why do you think none of the members of BRICS want to use their currencies as a reserve and instead want SDRs?


You'd have to ask Putin why he wants it to be a major world power. My guess is it all comes down to his ego, national pride and his experiences when he was in East Germany when the communist block collapsed. I really believe much of his policies and how he has run things really goes back to that as a major formative event in his life. Perhaps the world isn't run by ivory tower intellectuals? Asking that question screams that you have missed much of history though as it is something countries repeatedly reach for. Think the BRIC nations aren't?

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And how on earth do ground commanders become experts on geopolitical events? You're not making any sense.


I didn't say they did. You are the one who replied about foreign policy experts when we were discussing ground warfare. We keep coming back to this point.

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What else is the reason why the U.S. would have such a large military budget, set up over 700 military bases and installations worldwide, and commit so much mayhem that its own former President refers to it as the most warlike in modern history?

And if you're going to give some Reagan "evil empire" speech or Dubya's "either you are with us, or you are for the terrorists," then I'll be very disappointed.



Again with the number of bases worldwide. See my comment below about the military-industrial complex, and maybe sometime we could have a chat separate from this thread about why I think the US has such a large military budget (although when you compare it to the total US budget it is pretty damn small).

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Don't get confused: I wasn't referring to ground commanders. You were.


I guess you missed your own multiple references to ground commanders then. I guess I am not the only one who has been skipping through your posts. I keep having to mention this to you and it doesn't seem to get through. I mentioned ground commanders when we were discussing ground warfare. You mentioned foreign policy experts. I'll ignore the rest of your stuff there, as it really is just more of the same. My point when it was first made still stands. You can keep trying to twist it away from that if you wish, but I will keep bringing it back to that.

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Who are these "ground commanders"?


Simple answer to that one. People who command troops on the ground.

I've cut out all the stuff about BRIC, because while I find it interesting it isn't really on topic. Again, if you want to discuss it, I am happy to do so elsewhere.

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I can't think of any other reason why the U.S. has been spending heavily on its military, especially in light of Ukraine:


I can think of one really important one, but to explain it, I'd have to know more about what you think the military-industrial complex is, in your own words rather than using quotes and outside sources. Even then I suspect I'd be wasting my time. You do too much reading of things that aren't there and taking one part of a conversation, then joining it to an entirely different part of a conversation for such a talk to be really worthwhile.

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FWIW, those "Youtube links" consist of interviews with Chomsky, Sachs, and others, as well as lectures from political scientists and full-length documentaries from Pilger. They've also written articles, reports, and books on the same, so there's no need to congratulate me for going beyond certain sources. I've been there from the start.


I wasn't congratulating you on moving beyond those sources. I was congratulating you for not just posting up new Youtube links that merely result in big blank spaces in your posts that put people off of reading them.

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See, that's what I mean. This is not a black-and-white issue about one "crazy SOB" and being condemned by non-crazy, non-SOBs. Rather, we are looking at multiple military and economic powers engaged in shifting as part of realpolitik.


Everything you have posted says it is a black-and-white situation caused purely by the US and NATO. This is why I keep saying you are only seeing half the picture. This is something another reason why I've not clicked on most of your links and sources. I do not disagree with you that the actions of the west have contributed to this situation, however, I am also aware of what Putin has done and how he exploits the situation. If you are trying to show that it isn't a single issue topic, then I am sorry but you have failed very badly.

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That's why India and others are neutral, might shift from that, or might be neutral for some policies but not for others.


I would say India and others have been neutral because of the trade deals they have with Russia myself. It is a debatable point but one that would be for a different topic/forum.

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At this point, I hope that you realize that I've been on-topic from the start: I've been trying to explain what made the "crazy SOB" do it, and the answer lies way beyond the simpleton narrative that Putin simply wants to bring back the Soviet Empire.


I am aware it is not as simple as Putin wanting to build a new empire. What I am trying to get through to you is that it isn't as simple as Putin has been pushed by the west. Ever wondered to yourself, why do these countries like Ukraine and the Baltic States want to join NATO? All your posts say this is entirely the west's fault (specifically the US). I see no sign of balanced reporting (although I do admit I may have missed it thanks to skimming over some of your posts) if that is what you are trying to do. Believe me, I am not some flag-waving American patriot. Hell, I am not even American. I've made more than one post on this forum criticising the US and its international actions. Doesn't mean I hate it or love it for that matter. I do recognise when it has done right and done wrong though and can call it out or blame it as the situation deserves and requires. It is no different in its actions really from any of the other empires that came before it, nor different from any that will come after it I suspect.

Apologies for not addressing all of your points. As mentioned before I simply don't have enough time.


The official definition of WMDs came from the U.S. government the U.N., as explained to you earlier.

Now, we're looking at laws of proportionality. Reminds me of McNamara.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDT8NdyoWfI#)

The point I was making concerning WMDs and the claim that Saddam was supporting terrorists is to show that the decision to invade was based on false flags, as both points were not proven.

Next, the point isn't effectivity but usage. I understand amoraal view of the matter, but that's not the tone of this thread.

Where did you think that I'm Russian? "As to arguing that the US doesn't have WMDs, are you not aware you have the world's second-largest supply of nuclear weapons?" Who's "you"?

Do you understand what "neck and neck" means? The difference between the two numbers is around 10 pct.

The reason why I posted that fact about U.S. military bases is because you don't seem to be aware of it or its implications. Why are there so many of them spread around the world?

Where did you get the idea that Russia (not Putin) wants to be a major military power? Or is it because you need to repeat that in order to justify U.S. military spending, among others?

Where did you get the idea that we've been talking about ground warfare? The decision to attack Iraq was not based on that but on the claims that Saddam possessed WMDs and was supporting terrorists. Neither could be proven.

I did not refer to ground commanders. My sources are political scientists, historians, government officials, journalists, economists, etc.

Earlier you argued that I should expand my sources. Now, I'm reading too much. Reminds me of that "too many notes" line from Amadeus:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6_eqxh-Qok#)

Next, Youtube links: click on the link below the blank space and you can view them.

I never argued that it's a black-and-white situation. If any, I've been countering that claim. See for yourself: the dominant black-and-white situation discussed in this thread is that Putin is crazy, Russia wants to form an empire, and the West is here to save the day. I'm questioning that.

Right, trade deals. There's also recent news that the Netherlands is trying to resist U.S. claims about chip restrictions for China. Oh, the irony: free trade must prevail unless it's disadvantageous to the U.S., right?

Finally, about Putin being pushed by the West, wait for my subsequent posts. I have a lot of evidence for that.





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:04:01 AM
Wow has this thread strayed...

As a minor point people refering to BRIC (Brazil Russia India China) might want to note that South Africa is now often counted in this, making it BRICS.


It hasn't strayed: BRICS and almost forty countries have been experiencing very high economic growth the last two decades, and will eventually be taking control of the global economy.

The U.S., in turn, needs them to continue using the dollar so that the U.S. can maintain its borrowing and spending binge. That includes spending on a very expensive military that it needs to coerce and control other nations. The two ideologies it employs are neoconservatism (anyone who goes against the U.S. is against freedom and democracy, and must be dealt with using foreign policies and the military) and neoliberalism (freedom must prevail, whether countries want it or not; they must be pried open for trade, and thus for exploitation by stronger nations).

It needs to do that because when more countries start moving away from the U.S. dollar, then the U.S. will weaken considerably and even fall apart. And the only way for them to remain dependent on the dollar is to make sure that they are kept weak and dependent.

That's why NATO has been enlarging even without a Soviet Union, making more countries part of its sphere of influence, to counter Russia.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-john-mearsheimer-blames-the-us-for-the-crisis-in-ukraine)

That's also why the U.S. has over 700 military bases and installations worldwide, with around 400 of them need to counter China:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

Thus, the thread strays if one sticks to the simpleton narrative, which the U.S. prefers, that Putin is nuts, that Russians are violent and barbaric, and that the U.S. stands for good and must save the world from the "evil empire":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NXs_uWPgg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0NXs_uWPgg)

And that anyone who goes against her is with the terrorists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB145D3XJzE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB145D3XJzE)

The problem is that more people started studying the matter and discovered a reality that shows that the narrative is questionable. I'll explain in more detail in subsequent posts.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:08:07 AM

Kudos for not applying a US-hegemony-is-the-cause-of-everything filter to China.

Putin is, of course, the ultimate hypocrite for complaining about another country's political assassinations. (Being a hypocrite doesn't mean you're wrong; Jeffrey Dahmer would be right to criticize Charlie Manson's morals).

It's not so much an issue of applying a U.S.-is-the-cause-of-everything filter but applying a the-enemies-of-the-U.S.-is-the-cause-of-everything filter.

The latter is very clear in both the topic thread and the majority of messages in this thread.

Finally, I don't think Putin is the ultimate hypocrite as he's already been judged as a "crazy SOB". What we should wonder about are his rivals: they're the ones implicitly basing views on exceptionalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:12:58 AM
Putin pulled an assassination in England using a nerve agent that injured a non involved British citizen, and he was allowed to get away with it without consequences. This sort if thing just emboldened him over and over.

From what I remember, he came from the KGB and was supported by Russian oligarchs, the latter thinking that they could manipulate him, after which he turned on his own handlers.

Barring Communism, the U.S. and NATO had to find other reasons to apply pressure on not only Russia but even on China and those who trade with them. Hence, the illusion that he wants to recreate some Soviet Empire.

This also explains why NATO advisers have to see Russians as violent and non-European.

Why the need to apply pressure? Because the one who creates the reserve currency of the global economy must remain as top dog. How else can it continue borrowing and spending heavily?



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:15:51 AM
"Is Ukraine a 'proxy war'?"

https://noahcarl.substack.com/p/is-ukraine-a-proxy-war

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In 2019, the RAND corporation published a report on strategies to “overextend and unbalance” Russia. The report identified “providing lethal aid to Ukraine” as one that would “exploit Russia’s greatest point of external vulnerability”. (Interestingly, it concluded that any increase in aid would need to be “carefully calibrated” to avoid provoking “a much wider conflict”.)

...

“The key,” Brands noted, “is to find a committed local partner — a proxy willing to do the killing and dying”. You then “load it up with” arms so that it can inflict “shattering blows” on your adversary. “That’s just what Washington and its allies are doing to Russia today.”



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:18:36 AM
"What would George Kennan say about Ukraine?"

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/591787-what-would-george-kennan-say-about-ukraine/ (https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/591787-what-would-george-kennan-say-about-ukraine/)

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Kennan’s critique of a divided Europe survived even the fall of the Soviet Union. Writing in 1997 at age 92, he declared that expanding NATO to the east “ would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.”

“Such a decision,” he went on, “may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations.”

"A Fateful Error"

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.html (https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.html)

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But something of the highest importance is at stake here. And perhaps it is not too late to advance a view that, I believe, is not only mine alone but is shared by a number of others with extensive and in most instances more recent experience in Russian matters. The view, bluntly stated, is that expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era.

Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking. And, last but not least, it might make it much more difficult, if not impossible, to secure the Russian Duma's ratification of the Start II agreement and to achieve further reductions of nuclear weaponry.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:21:06 AM
"The Tragedy in Ukraine That Could Have Been Avoided"

https://www.apln.network/news/member_activities/the-tragedy-in-ukraine-that-could-have-been-avoided (https://www.apln.network/news/member_activities/the-tragedy-in-ukraine-that-could-have-been-avoided)

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Leading American realists from Henry Kissinger back to George Kennan, architect of the strategy of containment of the Soviet Union, argued that the peace and stability of the region could be guaranteed by acknowledging Russia’s sphere of influence.

When US President George W. Bush officially sought to make Georgia and Ukraine members of NATO in a summit in Bucharest in 2008, Kissinger argued that those two countries should be left neutral instead of being added to NATO. He was concerned that Russia might regard NATO’s eastward drive as signaling a change in the status quo.

On Jan. 19, a month before the invasion of Ukraine, US current events journal Foreign Policy carried an article by Harvard University professor Stephen Walt titled “Liberal illusions caused the Ukraine crisis.” In it, Walt predicted that the US and the West’s aggressive values-based foreign policy could provoke Russia to invade Ukraine, a prediction that proved only too true.

"The NATO Critics Who Predicted Russia’s Belligerence"

https://newrepublic.com/article/165562/nato-critics-predicted-russia-putin-belligerence-ukraine (https://newrepublic.com/article/165562/nato-critics-predicted-russia-putin-belligerence-ukraine)

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Joe Biden was confident. “This, in fact, is the beginning of another 50 years of peace,” he declared while serving as ranking member on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1998. The Delaware Democrat was proud of his role in helping the bipartisan congressional vote to approve the addition of Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic as full NATO members.

Not everyone was so optimistic, however. One month earlier, during a Senate debate, New York Democrat Daniel Patrick Moynihan cautioned, “We’re walking into ethnic historical enmities.” He added: “We have no idea what we’re getting into.”


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:23:59 AM
"3 NATO gambles that have played a big role in the horrors of war in Ukraine"

https://theconversation.com/3-nato-gambles-that-have-played-a-big-role-in-the-horrors-of-war-in-ukraine-178815

"Kennan's revenge: remembering the reasons for the Cold War"

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To understand how Russians regard Ukraine today, one needs to view events there through this lens. Following its "victory" in the Cold War, the West made a serious mistake by refusing to concede any form of regional hegemony to Russia, even in countries like Ukraine and Georgia that had once formed part of the historic Russian state.

Rather, under the banner of democracy and human rights, the West actively sought to pry the ex-Soviet countries from Russia's orbit. Many of them were eager to escape the Kremlin's gravity, and NATO expanded eastward into the former Soviet bloc in Central Europe, and even into the former Soviet Union, with the admission of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. In 1996, the 92-year-old Kennan warned that NATO's expansion into former Soviet territory was a "strategic blunder of potentially epic proportions."




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:28:02 AM
"Kennan Revisited: NATO Expansion into the Former USSR in Retrospect"

https://www.foreignaffairsreview.com/home/kennan-revisited-nato-expansion-into-the-former-ussr-in-retrospect (https://www.foreignaffairsreview.com/home/kennan-revisited-nato-expansion-into-the-former-ussr-in-retrospect)

Quote
Kennan was not alone in his fears – they were championed and echoed by Senator Edward Kennedy, Senator Sam Nunn, and Thomas Friedman – all of whom warned in the 1990’s of the inevitability of a ‘new cold war’ if NATO were to be expanded without the inclusion of Russia. While its proponents make the case for NATO enlargement on the grounds of historical determinism – that twice in this century central and eastern Europe were the cause of Great Wars – the notion that enlargement would ‘lock in the dividends’ of the Cold War’s end is one firmly dispelled by the Ukrainian crisis.

Kennan was right.

"Opinion: A different perspective on Ukraine"

https://www.concordmonitor.com/My-Turn-Ukraine-45415553 (https://www.concordmonitor.com/My-Turn-Ukraine-45415553)

Quote
In 1989, at the end of the Cold War, the U.S., the EU and NATO promised Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not move “one inch” eastward. Effectively, the end of the Cold War rendered NATO irrelevant. Nevertheless, in 1996 the Clinton administration began NATO expansion eastward. Many figures in the U.S., George Kennan, Henry Kissinger, Robert McNamara, Sam Nunn, Bill Bradley, Robert Gates, Jack Matlock among them, said then that NATO expansion was a bad idea.

Kennan, the architect of containment after WW2, warned that NATO expansion “would be the most fateful mistake of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era.” His warning was ignored then, in the name of political expediency, and forgotten by most now. Since the reunification of Germany that marked the end of the Cold War, we’ve added 14 nations to NATO, all to the east of Germany. The promise to Gorbachev and the warnings by leading foreign policy experts? All memory-holed.

"NATO and the Ukraine war: It took 30 years for Russia and the West to create this disaster"

https://www.salon.com/2022/06/30/nato-and-the-ukraine-war-it-took-30-years-for-and-the-west-to-create-this-disaster/ (https://www.salon.com/2022/06/30/nato-and-the-ukraine-war-it-took-30-years-for-and-the-west-to-create-this-disaster/)

Quote
As NATO holds its summit in Madrid this week, the war in Ukraine is taking center stage. During a pre-summit June 22 talk with Politico, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg bragged about how well-prepared NATO was for this fight because, he said: "This was an invasion that was predicted, foreseen by our intelligence services." Stoltenberg was talking about Western intelligence predictions in the months leading up to the Feb. 24 invasion, when Russia insisted it was not going to attack. Stoltenberg, however, could well have been talking about predictions that went back not just months before the invasion, but decades.

Stoltenberg could have looked all the way back to when the USSR was dissolving, and highlighted a 1990 State Department memo warning that creating an "anti-Soviet coalition" of NATO countries along the USSR's border "would be perceived very negatively by the Soviets."



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:37:16 AM
"Whose Bright Idea Was It to Extend NATO Membership to Ukraine?"

https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/whose-bright-idea-was-it-to-extend-nato-membership-to-ukraine/

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But the specter, however far-fetched, of NATO encirclement did offer Putin a pretext for invasion—more credible, at least, than the claim that Ukraine was a Nazi regime. But blaming NATO for forcing Putin to bombard Ukraine’s civilian population is a little like blaming Hitler’s decision to make war on Europe, Russia, and the U.S. on the Treaty of Versailles, which, as John Maynard Keynes wrote in 1920, levied ruinous reparations on Germany. Yes, the treaty was a bad idea that helped the Nazis come to power, just as the 2008 invitation that NATO extended to Ukraine and Georgia was a bad idea, too, one which, as George Kennan noted about NATO’s eastward expansion, was an act of first-rate geopolitical stupidity, a gratuitous insult to Russia.

And whence that insult? From none other than George W. Bush, who forced it on a reluctant NATO because he wanted to “lay down a marker” for his legacy before his term in office ran out, as The New York Times, quoting one Bush counselor, reported at the time. At NATO’s 2008 conference in Bucharest, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands strenuously objected to inviting those two nations to join, as neither seemed remotely ready for the task and as Russia—with or without Putin—would clearly view the invitation as an affront. According to the Times, “Germany and France have said they believe that since neither Ukraine nor Georgia is stable enough to enter the program now, a membership plan would be an unnecessary offense to Russia, which firmly opposes the move.” Among Europe’s major nations, only the U.K., under the Blairite Gordon Brown, stuck with Bush on this, as it had on the Iraq War.

"Ukraine is a Pawn on the Grand Chessboard"

https://english.almayadeen.net/articles/analysis/ukraine-is-a-pawn-on-the-grand-chessboard

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The basic premise of “The Grand Chessboard” is outlined in the introduction: 

*with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States is the sole global power

* Europe and Asia (Eurasia) together have the largest land area, population, and economy 

* U.S. must control Eurasia and prevent another country from challenging US dominance







Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:49:13 AM
TL-DR: The idea is containment, first of the Iron Curtain in the name of freedom, and next of Russia, China, and others in the name of the U.S. dollar given the dissolution of that Curtain.

Various reasons for containing them--that one leader plans to form an empire, than another wants to spread terrorism, that a third is autocratic and thus against freedom, that a fourth has WMDs, etc.--are all contrived.

The U.S. needs onerous foreign policies, covert activities, and military presence, intervention, and aid to achieve containment.

The U.S. economy gains from that containment because the same countries are weakened and thus remain dependent on the dollar, which allows the U.S. to borrow and spend heavily.

The politicians they favor in those countries gain because they get a cut from military and financial aid. Oligarchs in the same countries also gain because they receive a lot of invenstments from donor nations.

The military gains because they receive a larger budget, more armaments, etc.

The defense industry gains because they make more sales to the government and to other governments that receive military aid.

The catch: according to critics mentioned earlier, this will backfire on the U.S. and NATO as the same countries become stronger thanks to the same use of the dollar as a reserve currency (see the Triffin dilemma) and start moving away from the U.S. orbit of influence: bilateral relations, their own economic blocs, and even the use of a basket of currencies.

That, in turn, may lead to escalation of conflict as countries trying to remain neutral have to contend with a more aggressive U.S. while trying to maintain trade with Russia, China, and others. Even the U.S. might be affected in unusual ways, as China is one of its major trading partners.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:52:43 AM
"U.S. military-industrial complex: Wins big from Russia-Ukraine crisis"

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-05-05/U-S-military-industrial-complex-Wins-big-from-Russia-Ukraine-crisis-19MWjZTqe08/index.html

Quote
While in Alabama, President Biden reminded Congress that he wanted that body to fast track his proposed $33 billion in military aid to Ukraine. "I urge the Congress to pass this funding quickly to help Ukraine continue to succeed against Russian aggression, just as they did when they won the battle of Kyiv and to make sure the United States and our allies can replenish our own stock of weapons to replace what we've sent to Ukraine," he said. 

Biden told the truth in one of his rare moments of speaking accurately and transparent. He sees the perfect opportunity for America to put its current military hardware to use so that even more such hardware can be produced by corporations such as Lockheed Martin and purchased by America's government. It is a bizarre win-win situation since those new munitions will be used somewhere around the world and likely sooner rather than later. The military-industrial complex must be continuously fed.

"Defense contractors eye long-term profits from Ukraine war "

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/19/defense-contractors-eye-long-term-profits-from-ukraine-war/

Quote
Notably, it’s unclear whether these weapons would actually be useful in the case of a U.S.-China war. 

“It’s building stockpiles for a major ground war in the future,” Mark Cancian of the Center for Strategic and International Studies told Defense News. “This is not the list you would use for China. For China we’d have a very different list.”



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:56:19 AM
"CIRSD Conference, "The Crisis in Ukraine", Prof. Jeffrey D. Sachs, Columbia University"

(from eight years ago)

Quote
Panel V The Crisis in Ukraine: Winds of the New Cold War?- Russia, the EU and U.S. are making moves in an increasingly tumultuous region of Eastern Europe in which each party seek to alter the balance of power in their favor. Understanding possible trajectories and how they can influence bilateral ties is assuming critical importance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIgfCT2fFCw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIgfCT2fFCw)

"Sachs: We've divided the world, now paying the cost"

Quote
“Russia needs to leave [Ukraine], but the United States doesn't need to fill in afterwards. That's the basic point.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FoSgy-h5w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FoSgy-h5w)

"Noam Chomsky & Vijay Prashad on Ukraine, Why U.S. Must Negotiate with Russia & What Media Gets Wrong"

Quote
We speak to world-renowned political dissident Noam Chomsky and political writer Vijay Prashad about the Russian war in Ukraine, now in its eighth month. When it comes to continuing the war rather than negotiating a peace settlement, "the United States and Britain are pretty isolated on this," says Chomsky. "The United States saw Ukraine as a kind of loose nail under which they place their weapons, billions of dollars of weapons … in order to egg Russia on," says Prashad. Chomsky and Prashad are co-authors of the new book, "The Withdrawal: Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and the Fragility of U.S. Power," which covers failed U.S. foreign policy in recent wars and the importance of seeing beyond dominant media narratives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZyj-_T6hQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZyj-_T6hQ)

"How Giant Investment Bank Goldman Sachs Is Profiting On Ukraine War"

Quote
Goldman Sachs is cashing in on the war in Ukraine by selling Russian debt to U.S. hedge funds — and using a legal loophole in the Biden administration’s sanctions to do it. Stephanie Ruhle and Jonathan Allen follow the money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5pHAYpIiY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl5pHAYpIiY)





Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 22, 2022, 02:59:35 AM
From Prof. Wolff:

https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1594382566399782913

Quote
Zelensky says Ukraine war lasts until Russia returns Crimea, etc. Since US and EU $ billions to Ukraine's made its war against Russia possible, Zelensky cannot alone set conditions. Or did Biden give him a blank check?

Related:

https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1592569870318592000

Quote
Biden regime deliberately attacks China via economic warfare, forcing allies to choose sides as US policy abandons globalization, shifts to aggressive nationalism, splits global economy. Possibility of military war grows.

https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1591475916592611329

Quote
Who is the more important trading partner: China (red) or USA (blue)? How drastically the world economy has changed. No wonder US and EU miscalculated how sanctions would "weaken" Russia. Thanks to Henry Hakamaki for the graphic.

Interestingly enough, someone pointed out that another major trading partner is the EU.

In addition, China, the U.S., and the EU have each other as major trading partners. Will all that untangle given economic warfare?



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 22, 2022, 03:18:26 AM
Going to skip most of this. Ultimately you are provably wrong on WMDs even if you refuse to accept it. I am going to waste no more time on the matter.

Where did you think that I'm Russian? "As to arguing that the US doesn't have WMDs, are you not aware you have the world's second-largest supply of nuclear weapons?" Who's "you"?

As mentioned before and doubtless again, I never thought you were Russian. You asked me where I got that idea . "You" in this case would be yourself. You asked what made me think you are Russian. I replied. Seems very simple to me.

Quote
Do you understand what "neck and neck" means? The difference between the two numbers is around 10 pct.

Yes I do. It is a subjective term. I referred to the Russians as having more nuclear weapons and the US as having the second most. Spin in how you like, doesn't stop it being true.

Quote
Where did you get the idea that Russia (not Putin) wants to be a major military power? Or is it because you need to repeat that in order to justify U.S. military spending, among others?

I said Putin wants Russia to be a major world power. I did not say what you have written. Again you are seeing things that are not there. If you don't understand that Putin wants this, then you have missed so much I can't even begin to cover it.

Quote
Where did you get the idea that we've been talking about ground warfare? The decision to attack Iraq was not based on that but on the claims that Saddam possessed WMDs and was supporting terrorists. Neither could be proven.

*sigh* Once more I will say this. I wonder how many more times I will have to. We were on a section of this thread where we were discussing ground warfare. It came after you said if the US had conducted the invasion it would be have been over in 24 hours. I am not sure how this cannot be perfectly clear to you. This was then replied to directly by ER. You then quoted ER and you in turn replied with a link to a list of foreign policy quotes. I may just have to accept that you are incapable of understanding this and move on though.

Quote
I did not refer to ground commanders. My sources are political scientists, historians, government officials, journalists, economists, etc.

Indeed you did, and once more I will point out that these are sources you used during a point in the conversation where we were discussing warfare. You then in subsecquent posts have made reference to ground commanders multiple times. Go back and read your own posts. I would also point out that at least two of your source types are notorious for being shall we say economical with the truth? I would also point out that some of your experts said that Putin had never wanted to join NATO and I was able to counter that with words from the man's mouth himself. Maybe you need to find better experts. That they managed to miss something as basic as that really doesn't inspire me with any confidence in you or your sources.

Quote
Earlier you argued that I should expand my sources. Now, I'm reading too much. Reminds me of that "too many notes" line from Amadeus:

Nope, I did not. Still making up claims.

Quote
Next, Youtube links: click on the link below the blank space and you can view them.

I am aware of this. I was pointing out though that it leaves big blank areas in your posts that puts people off reading them. As I have a full-time job, a young family and a busy social life though and I simply do not have enough time to watch your links.

Quote
I never argued that it's a black-and-white situation. If any, I've been countering that claim. See for yourself: the dominant black-and-white situation discussed in this thread is that Putin is crazy, Russia wants to form an empire, and the West is here to save the day. I'm questioning that.

Everything you have written has said it is a black-and-white situation caused by the west. If you mean to suggest otherwise then you seriously need to revise how you present your cases. Multiple people have told you that in different ways. You have denied this, but personally in this case, I am going to go with the majority.

Quote
Finally, about Putin being pushed by the West, wait for my subsequent posts. I have a lot of evidence for that.

I look forward to scrolling past them. I find I am reading less and less of your posts. Your one-sided arguments are not compelling, nor is simply reposting the same stuff over and over again. I am sure all you are going to write is more of the same and that I won't miss anything by not reading them.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 22, 2022, 11:40:07 AM
I got you figured out, ralfy, you're CIA, aren't you? You're sitting there giving us these inside warnings wearing your black suit and black tie and those special shoes for sneaking up on.... Wait that's what those punks in the FBI wear. What do spooks dress in? Oh! You're sitting there in a ball cap and dark glasses, nondescript T-shirt, trying to benevolently tip us all off with your covert intelligence. Hey, did I get it right? Please say I got it right!  :thumbup:

The CIA would say the opposite of my points.



Then maybe there's a lesson in there, huh?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 22, 2022, 01:52:22 PM
...As for the the rest of your questions, I will address them in my subsequent (and last) posts on the matter.

We can only hope.   :thumbup: :smile:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 12:43:13 AM
Going to skip most of this. Ultimately you are provably wrong on WMDs even if you refuse to accept it. I am going to waste no more time on the matter.

Same. I notice that you skip the critical points of my arguments and focus on the ones where you can say something that you think makes sense. But even those don't make sense.

Here's the gist:

I didn't refer to ground commanders, and it's absurd to even mention that.

What you want to look at concerning Iraq isn't even the definition of WMDs, etc., but the fact that the U.S. found nothing and couldn't even prove that Saddam, which they armed for years, was supporting terrorists. That's definitely a false flag and makes the invasion a war crime.

The claim that Putin wants Russia to become a major power makes no sense whatsoever. Kennan and others are right: Russia has been in a process of trying to become an economic power, and can't afford to engage in the type of warmongering that the U.S. does.

Given that, it's very clear why he attacked Ukraine: the U.S. and its allies were trying to enlarge NATO, an organization that had no purpose after the Soviet Union fell, and was thus used by the U.S. as not only a shield but even a testing ground:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html)

Quote
“Ukraine is the best test ground, as we have the opportunity to test all hypotheses in battle and introduce revolutionary change in military tech and modern warfare,” said Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine’s vice prime minister and minister of digital transformation..

...

“We’re learning in Ukraine how to fight, and we’re learning how to use our NATO equipment,” Ms. Grybauskaite said in an interview last week. “And, yes, it is a teaching battleground.”

This is not a new phenomenon, as both the U.S. and its Soviet rivals had been doing the same thing throughout the Cold War: use other countries for their proxy wars:

https://noahcarl.substack.com/p/is-ukraine-a-proxy-war (https://noahcarl.substack.com/p/is-ukraine-a-proxy-war)

Quote
It’s certainly not a stretch to imagine the US would wage a “proxy war” of this kind. The Reagan Doctrine was all about building up the US military and arming anti-communist guerrillas in order to overwhelm the Soviet Union and, ultimately, win the Cold War. This included arming both religious and political extremists.

But we don’t have to go back to the eighties. In 2019, the RAND corporation published a report on strategies to “overextend and unbalance” Russia. The report identified “providing lethal aid to Ukraine” as one that would “exploit Russia’s greatest point of external vulnerability”. (Interestingly, it concluded that any increase in aid would need to be “carefully calibrated” to avoid provoking “a much wider conflict”.)



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 12:44:17 AM
Then maybe there's a lesson in there, huh?

Yes, it's "realpolitik."

In the end, more will realize that "crazy SOBs" are not involved in such events.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 12:45:29 AM
We can only hope.   :thumbup: :smile:

Done. Scroll up for details.

In my case, I can only hope that for once you will give a response that not only makes sense but is meaningful, but I doubt that.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 23, 2022, 08:19:16 AM
That is not dead which can eternal lie....


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2022, 12:31:20 PM
Going to skip most of this. Ultimately you are provably wrong on WMDs even if you refuse to accept it. I am going to waste no more time on the matter.

Same. I notice that you skip the critical points of my arguments and focus on the ones where you can say something that you think makes sense. But even those don't make sense.

Here's the gist:

I didn't refer to ground commanders, and it's absurd to even mention that.

What you want to look at concerning Iraq isn't even the definition of WMDs, etc., but the fact that the U.S. found nothing and couldn't even prove that Saddam, which they armed for years, was supporting terrorists. That's definitely a false flag and makes the invasion a war crime.

The claim that Putin wants Russia to become a major power makes no sense whatsoever. Kennan and others are right: Russia has been in a process of trying to become an economic power, and can't afford to engage in the type of warmongering that the U.S. does.

Given that, it's very clear why he attacked Ukraine: the U.S. and its allies were trying to enlarge NATO, an organization that had no purpose after the Soviet Union fell, and was thus used by the U.S. as not only a shield but even a testing ground:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/world/europe/ukraine-weapons.html)

Quote
“Ukraine is the best test ground, as we have the opportunity to test all hypotheses in battle and introduce revolutionary change in military tech and modern warfare,” said Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine’s vice prime minister and minister of digital transformation..

...

“We’re learning in Ukraine how to fight, and we’re learning how to use our NATO equipment,” Ms. Grybauskaite said in an interview last week. “And, yes, it is a teaching battleground.”

This is not a new phenomenon, as both the U.S. and its Soviet rivals had been doing the same thing throughout the Cold War: use other countries for their proxy wars:

https://noahcarl.substack.com/p/is-ukraine-a-proxy-war (https://noahcarl.substack.com/p/is-ukraine-a-proxy-war)

Quote
It’s certainly not a stretch to imagine the US would wage a “proxy war” of this kind. The Reagan Doctrine was all about building up the US military and arming anti-communist guerrillas in order to overwhelm the Soviet Union and, ultimately, win the Cold War. This included arming both religious and political extremists.

But we don’t have to go back to the eighties. In 2019, the RAND corporation published a report on strategies to “overextend and unbalance” Russia. The report identified “providing lethal aid to Ukraine” as one that would “exploit Russia’s greatest point of external vulnerability”. (Interestingly, it concluded that any increase in aid would need to be “carefully calibrated” to avoid provoking “a much wider conflict”.)



Whatever you've written dude, I saw my name at the top and skipped it all. Your continual nonsensical claims of me saying things that just weren't there have convinced me whatever you think you are saying wasn't worth reading.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on November 23, 2022, 07:57:27 PM
The best thing for Ukraine, and the world, right now would be for Vladimir Putin to suffer a spontaneous cranial detonation.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 23, 2022, 08:29:57 PM
The best thing for Ukraine, and the world, right now would be for Vladimir Putin to suffer a spontaneous cranial detonation.

I hope that's true, I hope whoever replaces him isn't as bad or WORSE than pooty.

I am reminded if a little known ww2 factoid: At a certain point in ww2 the British suspended all efforts to whack Hitler after making many failed attempts to punch uncle dolf's ticket.

The British military intelligence community decided that Hitler was so incompetent as a strategic leader killing him could be counter productive as a more competent leader may have taken over abd made things worse for the allies.

Maybe if pooty falls out a window or starts glowing in the dark his replacement will be as bad but more competent. Who knows what he might do? (And yes I'm saying 'he' as the odds of Russia having a female leader are about the same as the  Kremlin picking ME to be Russia's next leader. Russia is not a fan of woke.)

Another issue I keep hearing about is the 'inevitable' collapse of 'Russia's economy'. What happens then? What if Russia's economy does utterly collapse? Do we want utter chaos in a country with countless nukes laying around? What could do wrong with that?

It could be like killing Godzilla. Sure it's dead, now what do you do with a 400' radioactive decomposing corpse?

Honestly I think whatever happened with russia it will be one big fecal fest no matter what.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 09:17:23 PM
Whatever you've written dude, I saw my name at the top and skipped it all. Your continual nonsensical claims of me saying things that just weren't there have convinced me whatever you think you are saying wasn't worth reading.

From what I remember, you mentioned Iraq because you wanted to show that the U.S. is a "good guy," and with that the invasion of Iraq was justified. To do that, you had to show that the definition of WMDs refers to chemical, etc., weapons, which Iraq had. The problem is that the U.S. was never able to prove that. In fact, it wasn't even able to prove the second reason for invasion, which is that Saddam was supporting terrorists. And what makes matters worse is that it turns out that the chemical weapons Saddam did have were sold by U.S. companies and by allies, that the U.S. provided him with military aid to oppress Kurds and Islamic fundamentalists in Iraq, to attack Iraq after the U.S. puppet the Shah of Iran fled, and together with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan funded, trained, and armed the "freedom fighters" from which terror groups and even drug pushers would emerge.

After that, you pointed out that the U.S. also did bad, but you still stuck to claims that WMDs refer only to chemical, etc., weapons, and then added even points that one has to look at "effectivity" (implying that MOABs are not considered WMDs because they're not that effective). You also said that you'd trust "military experts" more while assuming that my sources are "ground commanders."

Given that, I think you've been struggling with your beliefs, acknowledging that the U.S. is not wholly a "good guy" but can't let go of that idea because that puts to question the dominant reason why Russia invaded Ukraine: Putin is a "crazy SOB" and wants to form a "Soviet empire."

I've been questioning that reason, and I think I've provided enough evidence. I don't think you read them carefully because you thought I was relying on military officers, which is why you wanted me to "expand" my "sources." But I think I can't go beyond former policymakers like Kennan and experts like Mearsheimer, which is why I asked you for suggestions. For some reason, you did not do that, and instead kept talking about yourself.

I also asked Powell to point out the weak elements in what Kennan and others wrote, but no response, either. The same goes for Allhallows. Instead, I get this reasoning from your recent post: since you're making nonsense claims about me (Alex), then we should assume that everything else you say also makes no sense and isn't worth reading.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 09:24:25 PM
The best thing for Ukraine, and the world, right now would be for Vladimir Putin to suffer a spontaneous cranial detonation.

FWIW, the U.S. has been following similar across decades:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

That is, it engaged in covert activity, destabilization, low intensity conflict, support for coups, assassinations, funding of revolutions, and intervention in order to cause political leaders it did not want to suffer something like "a spontaneous cranial detonation," and then replace them with leaders it preferred. But neither helped countries affected.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 23, 2022, 09:30:56 PM
We can only hope.   :thumbup: :smile:
Done.

Hadn't you already announced that? 

Scroll up for details...
Not likely.   :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 09:37:50 PM

I hope that's true, I hope whoever replaces him isn't as bad or WORSE than pooty.

I am reminded if a little known ww2 factoid: At a certain point in ww2 the British suspended all efforts to whack Hitler after making many failed attempts to punch uncle dolf's ticket.

The British military intelligence community decided that Hitler was so incompetent as a strategic leader killing him could be counter productive as a more competent leader may have taken over abd made things worse for the allies.

Maybe if pooty falls out a window or starts glowing in the dark his replacement will be as bad but more competent. Who knows what he might do? (And yes I'm saying 'he' as the odds of Russia having a female leader are about the same as the  Kremlin picking ME to be Russia's next leader. Russia is not a fan of woke.)

Another issue I keep hearing about is the 'inevitable' collapse of 'Russia's economy'. What happens then? What if Russia's economy does utterly collapse? Do we want utter chaos in a country with countless nukes laying around? What could do wrong with that?

It could be like killing Godzilla. Sure it's dead, now what do you do with a 400' radioactive decomposing corpse?

Honestly I think whatever happened with russia it will be one big fecal fest no matter what.

In addition, various countries in the West were working with the Nazis. Before that, they were profiting from the Germans through reparations, which ironically triggered economic collapse and the subsequent rise of the Nazis. What made matters worse is that the Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs thanks to Stalin, but the West needed the Russians to defeat the Axis.

That's why by the end, it was the Russians, who bought weapons from the U.S., which suffered horribly, with incredible casualties. The U.S. then took advantage of support from Nazi scientists and even intelligence officers to counter the new Iron Curtain, which was not only creating a domino effect by spreading Communism to the "free world" but also allowing the same world to gain independence from Western colonizers.

The rest of your points are notable, as they remind me of that NATO advisor on Russia:

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143

That is, Russians are not Europeans (read: they're "oriental") and are only about violence and death (read: they're uncivilized and barbarians). That's not only what makes them "hardened" (read: they are used to death and violence, and are thus savages) but also doesn't allow them to value "a liberal, post-modern life" (read: they're not "woke," i.e., people who believe that a woman leader is better, that there should be dozens of genders, that white lives don't matter, etc.). They're like Godzilla, a necessary antagonist in B-movie franchises but also expendable, to be killed over and over like Voltes V kills beast fighters.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 23, 2022, 09:39:36 PM
We can only hope.   :thumbup: :smile:
Done.

Hadn't you already announced that?  

Scroll up for details...
Not likely.   :bouncegiggle:

I'm done with explaining the background of the conflict because you and others can't counter them. In which case, I move on to other points.




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 24, 2022, 12:16:53 AM

I hope that's true, I hope whoever replaces him isn't as bad or WORSE than pooty.

I am reminded if a little known ww2 factoid: At a certain point in ww2 the British suspended all efforts to whack Hitler after making many failed attempts to punch uncle dolf's ticket.

The British military intelligence community decided that Hitler was so incompetent as a strategic leader killing him could be counter productive as a more competent leader may have taken over and made things worse for the allies.

Maybe if pooty falls out a window or starts glowing in the dark his replacement will be as bad but more competent. Who knows what he might do? (And yes I'm saying 'he' as the odds of Russia having a female leader are about the same as the  Kremlin picking ME to be Russia's next leader. Russia is not a fan of woke.)

Another issue I keep hearing about is the 'inevitable' collapse of 'Russia's economy'. What happens then? What if Russia's economy does utterly collapse? Do we want utter chaos in a country with countless nukes laying around? What could do wrong with that?

It could be like killing Godzilla. Sure it's dead, now what do you do with a 400' radioactive decomposing corpse?

Honestly I think whatever happened with russia it will be one big fecal fest no matter what.

In addition, various countries in the West were working with the Nazis. Before that, they were profiting from the Germans through reparations, which ironically triggered economic collapse and the subsequent rise of the Nazis. What made matters worse is that the Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs thanks to Stalin, but the West needed the Russians to defeat the Axis.

That's why by the end, it was the Russians, who bought weapons from the U.S., which suffered horribly, with incredible casualties. The U.S. then took advantage of support from Nazi scientists and even intelligence officers to counter the new Iron Curtain, which was not only creating a domino effect by spreading Communism to the "free world" but also allowing the same world to gain independence from Western colonizers.

The rest of your points are notable, as they remind me of that NATO advisor on Russia:

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143

That is, Russians are not Europeans (read: they're "oriental") and are only about violence and death (read: they're uncivilized and barbarians). That's not only what makes them "hardened" (read: they are used to death and violence, and are thus savages) but also doesn't allow them to value "a liberal, post-modern life" (read: they're not "woke," i.e., people who believe that a woman leader is better, that there should be dozens of genders, that white lives don't matter, etc.). They're like Godzilla, a necessary antagonist in B-movie franchises but also expendable, to be killed over and over like Voltes V kills beast fighters.



Ralfy, I made a simple point, that Putin's replacement couikd be worse than he is.

You instantly went 70 years back to ww2 and then went into complex international issues over decades.

So what?  Whiskey tango foxtrot does the points you raise have to do with Putin's possible successor being worse than he is? I just speculated that killing poots could possibly make thing worse and you're like ''Well 70 years ago America did bad things and the west did bad things wordwall tldr yadda yadda. ''

It seems that someone raises a simple basic point and you have to come in with this massive barrage of things from decades ago, multiple major international issues going on across the world and back a long way. And of course you almost always have to add in how America/the west is somehow to blame because of stuff from a lifetime ago. In fact this post went back to the end of ww1, OVER 100 YEARS AGO!

Your barrage had almost nothing to do with my post and I'm not commenting on it, just your posting habits.

Frankly it comes off as annoying and pretentious. Try sticking to a point someone raised once in a while instead of going back 70-100 years ago and bringing in some vast international conspiracy! I'm amazed you never mention the Illuminati...


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2022, 03:15:58 AM

I hope that's true, I hope whoever replaces him isn't as bad or WORSE than pooty.

I am reminded if a little known ww2 factoid: At a certain point in ww2 the British suspended all efforts to whack Hitler after making many failed attempts to punch uncle dolf's ticket.

The British military intelligence community decided that Hitler was so incompetent as a strategic leader killing him could be counter productive as a more competent leader may have taken over and made things worse for the allies.

Maybe if pooty falls out a window or starts glowing in the dark his replacement will be as bad but more competent. Who knows what he might do? (And yes I'm saying 'he' as the odds of Russia having a female leader are about the same as the  Kremlin picking ME to be Russia's next leader. Russia is not a fan of woke.)

Another issue I keep hearing about is the 'inevitable' collapse of 'Russia's economy'. What happens then? What if Russia's economy does utterly collapse? Do we want utter chaos in a country with countless nukes laying around? What could do wrong with that?

It could be like killing Godzilla. Sure it's dead, now what do you do with a 400' radioactive decomposing corpse?

Honestly I think whatever happened with russia it will be one big fecal fest no matter what.

In addition, various countries in the West were working with the Nazis. Before that, they were profiting from the Germans through reparations, which ironically triggered economic collapse and the subsequent rise of the Nazis. What made matters worse is that the Soviets made the Nazis look like amateurs thanks to Stalin, but the West needed the Russians to defeat the Axis.

That's why by the end, it was the Russians, who bought weapons from the U.S., which suffered horribly, with incredible casualties. The U.S. then took advantage of support from Nazi scientists and even intelligence officers to counter the new Iron Curtain, which was not only creating a domino effect by spreading Communism to the "free world" but also allowing the same world to gain independence from Western colonizers.

The rest of your points are notable, as they remind me of that NATO advisor on Russia:

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143

That is, Russians are not Europeans (read: they're "oriental") and are only about violence and death (read: they're uncivilized and barbarians). That's not only what makes them "hardened" (read: they are used to death and violence, and are thus savages) but also doesn't allow them to value "a liberal, post-modern life" (read: they're not "woke," i.e., people who believe that a woman leader is better, that there should be dozens of genders, that white lives don't matter, etc.). They're like Godzilla, a necessary antagonist in B-movie franchises but also expendable, to be killed over and over like Voltes V kills beast fighters.



Ralfy, I made a simple point, that Putin's replacement couikd be worse than he is.

You instantly went 70 years back to ww2 and then went into complex international issues over decades.

So what?  Whiskey tango foxtrot does the points you raise have to do with Putin's possible successor being worse than he is? I just speculated that killing poots could possibly make thing worse and you're like ''Well 70 years ago America did bad things and the west did bad things wordwall tldr yadda yadda. ''

It seems that someone raises a simple basic point and you have to come in with this massive barrage of things from decades ago, multiple major international issues going on across the world and back a long way. And of course you almost always have to add in how America/the west is somehow to blame because of stuff from a lifetime ago. In fact this post went back to the end of ww1, OVER 100 YEARS AGO!

Your barrage had almost nothing to do with my post and I'm not commenting on it, just your posting habits.

Frankly it comes off as annoying and pretentious. Try sticking to a point someone raised once in a while instead of going back 70-100 years ago and bringing in some vast international conspiracy! I'm amazed you never mention the Illuminati...

Morpheus, I'd suggest doing what I am doing and not bothering to read his posts.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 24, 2022, 03:24:06 PM



I'm done with explaining the background of the conflict because you and others can't counter them. In which case, I move on to other points.




That statement shows arrogance to the point of delusion. Not only do you believe a distortion of reality in the outer world, you apparently see it in here as well.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2022, 04:08:02 PM



I'm done with explaining the background of the conflict because you and others can't counter them. In which case, I move on to other points.




That statement shows arrogance to the point of delusion. Not only do you believe a distortion of reality in the outer world, you apparently see it in here as well.

Lol, he is still going on then? (Rhetorical question).


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 24, 2022, 11:10:20 PM

Ralfy, I made a simple point, that Putin's replacement couikd be worse than he is.

You instantly went 70 years back to ww2 and then went into complex international issues over decades.

So what?  Whiskey tango foxtrot does the points you raise have to do with Putin's possible successor being worse than he is? I just speculated that killing poots could possibly make thing worse and you're like ''Well 70 years ago America did bad things and the west did bad things wordwall tldr yadda yadda. ''

It seems that someone raises a simple basic point and you have to come in with this massive barrage of things from decades ago, multiple major international issues going on across the world and back a long way. And of course you almost always have to add in how America/the west is somehow to blame because of stuff from a lifetime ago. In fact this post went back to the end of ww1, OVER 100 YEARS AGO!

Your barrage had almost nothing to do with my post and I'm not commenting on it, just your posting habits.

Frankly it comes off as annoying and pretentious. Try sticking to a point someone raised once in a while instead of going back 70-100 years ago and bringing in some vast international conspiracy! I'm amazed you never mention the Illuminati...

Actually, I've been talking about your point: why do you believe that Putin's replacement (and he'll be Russian, too, right?) could be worse than he is? Do you believe in what this NATO adviser says about Russian culture?

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143

So, you see, the problem isn't that I come off as "annoying and pretentious." Rather, you don't understand the repercussions of your statements. And I think you will be more than just annoyed if I tell you.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 24, 2022, 11:13:19 PM

Morpheus, I'd suggest doing what I am doing and not bothering to read his posts.

I think that's what you've been doing from the start. You can't move away from the dominant narrative that all we're dealing here is a "crazy SOB" who wants a new "Soviet Empire," and we need the "good guys" to stop him. And once he's stopped, we'll do fine once more.

What happened is a lot murkier than that, but you don't want to think about it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 24, 2022, 11:14:42 PM
That statement shows arrogance to the point of delusion. Not only do you believe a distortion of reality in the outer world, you apparently see it in here as well.

What did I distort?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 24, 2022, 11:16:49 PM
Lol, he is still going on then? (Rhetorical question).

Previously, I asked you what sources should I consider. I also asked you what's the logic in relying on military experts to deal with geopolitical issues, etc. Similarly, I asked Powell what are the weak elements in my argument. Finally, I'm asking ER to explain what I distorted.

So far, it's 0 for 2. Will it be 0 for 3?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 25, 2022, 08:07:47 AM
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2022, 08:43:37 AM
Lol, he is still going on then? (Rhetorical question).

Previously, I asked you what sources should I consider. I also asked you what's the logic in relying on military experts to deal with geopolitical issues, etc. Similarly, I asked Powell what are the weak elements in my argument. Finally, I'm asking ER to explain what I distorted.

So far, it's 0 for 2. Will it be 0 for 3?


Accidentally read this one. I'll assume you still haven't figured out what I meant when I said I use the right experts for the right situation, military ones for military issues and so forth and yet again I will point out that while we were discussing ground military matters, you quoted foreign policy experts. That is why I said you should look at the right experts for the right situation. It seems a very simple matter and you'd have saved yourself much later confusion.

As to what you've distorted, well the entire discussion. My suspicion is that you've started with your conclusion and then went looking for evidence to back it up. Not an uncommon fallacy, but confirmational bias is not the same as proof.

Whatever you think you are scoring on, I have no idea. I'd have to be paying more attention to you. I am sure that in your head, it is right, even if nowhere else. If you really want some sort of analagy, imagine you are in a race. You think you are winning because everyone is behind you, but the truth is, they've already been around the track and are about to lap you. I do believe self-belief is one of the keys to a happy life, even if in some cases it does seem to be more self-delusion. Just go back to making up things people have said, attributing things they don't believe in to them and all the other stuff you have done. I am sure that when you do that, yes indeed you are winning.

Just not in the real world.

And now, back to not reading your posts.




I can't help feeling like I should give him a friendly little pat on the head and send him on his way now.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2022, 03:34:49 PM
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"


As much as I enjoy a bit of Burns, let me say in my native language, "Dinnae let him fash ye none lass". His one-sided arguments are victorious only in his own mind. You (and almost everyone else), understand more about what is really going on here. No matter what is said, he'll always be convinced of his righteousness, seemingly at a delusional level where he imagines arguments that have not been made (I guess because in his mind at least he can win them that way?). I know you have access to experts on this matter who can go into things more deeply than he can imagine and I appreciate your insight into things.  :thumbup:


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 05:06:58 AM

Accidentally read this one. I'll assume you still haven't figured out what I meant when I said I use the right experts for the right situation, military ones for military issues and so forth and yet again I will point out that while we were discussing ground military matters, you quoted foreign policy experts. That is why I said you should look at the right experts for the right situation. It seems a very simple matter and you'd have saved yourself much later confusion.

As to what you've distorted, well the entire discussion. My suspicion is that you've started with your conclusion and then went looking for evidence to back it up. Not an uncommon fallacy, but confirmational bias is not the same as proof.

Whatever you think you are scoring on, I have no idea. I'd have to be paying more attention to you. I am sure that in your head, it is right, even if nowhere else. If you really want some sort of analagy, imagine you are in a race. You think you are winning because everyone is behind you, but the truth is, they've already been around the track and are about to lap you. I do believe self-belief is one of the keys to a happy life, even if in some cases it does seem to be more self-delusion. Just go back to making up things people have said, attributing things they don't believe in to them and all the other stuff you have done. I am sure that when you do that, yes indeed you are winning.

Just not in the real world.

And now, back to not reading your posts.

I can't help feeling like I should give him a friendly little pat on the head and send him on his way now.

Why do you keep talking about me? Why not stick to the topic and answer questions directly:

You mentioned that I should expand my sources. What sources do you have in mind? By that, I mean at least author names.

Next, you thought that my references are ground commanders. Where did you get that idea?

Last, you stated that there are errors in my argument. Powell said the same. Can you specify those errors? Here's the gist of the points:

1. Kennan's view of containment and the claim that Russia is nationalist;

2. NATO expansion and the color revolutions;

3. Sachs and the military industrial complex;

4. the military industrial complex and the dollar used as a global reserve currency;

5. the connection between those two points and NATO expansion coupled with the color revolutions;

6. Putin's retaliation.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 05:11:30 AM
As much as I enjoy a bit of Burns, let me say in my native language, "Dinnae let him fash ye none lass". His one-sided arguments are victorious only in his own mind. You (and almost everyone else), understand more about what is really going on here. No matter what is said, he'll always be convinced of his righteousness, seemingly at a delusional level where he imagines arguments that have not been made (I guess because in his mind at least he can win them that way?). I know you have access to experts on this matter who can go into things more deeply than he can imagine and I appreciate your insight into things.  :thumbup:

Let's hear those experts.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 05:26:45 AM
Oh, I forgot to add the usual, in this our lugubrious drollery:

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow




Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Rev. Powell on November 26, 2022, 10:28:03 AM
There was a young lady of Norway
Who hung by her toes in a doorway.
She said to her beau
‘Just look at me Joe,
I think I’ve discovered one more way.’


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 26, 2022, 11:39:16 AM
Oh, me too, me too!



Once a cat
Swallowed a rat,
Was bit by a bat,
Then slept in a hat,
In which he shat.
I blame the bat,
Not the cat,
For full of rat,
The bite of the bat,
Authored the shat
Within the hat,
Soon worn by Pat.





Curtsey, curtsey!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 26, 2022, 03:16:44 PM
Well this is one thread
That's now officially dead.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 26, 2022, 04:07:26 PM
Well this is one thread
That's now officially dead.

It's just been a flesh eating zombie for pages anyway. 


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 26, 2022, 04:49:58 PM
Maybe we should just abandon it and see how long before a certain poster starts attacking himself in it.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 09:43:33 PM
I know, let's make it dead. Then maybe that self-righteous, delusional bad man will go way, and we can live in our fantasies about being the real experts on this matter. *Covering ears*. La la la la la la la!

In other news,

"Olena Zelenska: We will endure"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63743657 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63743657)

Quote
"We are ready to endure this," Olena Zelenska asserts when we sit down in a heavily secured compound tucked inside a sandbagged labyrinth of buildings in Kyiv.

"We've had so many terrible challenges, seen so many victims, so much destruction, that blackouts are not the worst thing to happen to us." She cites a recent poll where 90 % of Ukrainians said they were ready to live with electricity shortages for two to three years if they could see the prospect of joining the European Union.

"Ukraine Likely to Win Initial EU Backing for Path to Membership"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-09/ukraine-likely-to-win-initial-eu-backing-for-path-to-membership?leadSource=uverify+wall (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-09/ukraine-likely-to-win-initial-eu-backing-for-path-to-membership?leadSource=uverify+wall)

Quote
In a diplomatic note seen by Bloomberg, Denmark said that Ukraine does not sufficiently fulfil criteria related to the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. Kyiv will need to “fundamentally improve its legislative and institutional framework” to progress on all these areas, the note says.

You hear that, Ukraine? Read my lips: y-u-r n-o-t w-o-r-t-h-y y-e-t. But we're gonna give you a break today, seeing how you're getting mauled by the bear that we kept poking since the late '90s. Keep, in mind, though, that we're taking matter very seriously, following expert advice that Russians aren't really Europeans and are all about violence and death:

https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143 (https://twitter.com/zoolooy/status/1514283686786736143)

and you're part of that same world. Don't ever forget that.

Finally, one day you'll probably realize that all we wanted throughout was to make you part of our shield:

(https://apps.npr.org/dailygraphics/graphics/nato-map-20220127/img/_ai2html-map-medium.jpg)

but at least you got something out of it, right?







Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 09:45:07 PM
Looks like the other "crazy SOBs" are at it, too.

"Europe accuses US of profiting from war"

https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/ (https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/)

Quote
“The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the U.S. because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons,” one senior official told POLITICO. 

The explosive comments — backed in public and private by officials, diplomats and ministers elsewhere — follow mounting anger in Europe over American subsidies that threaten to wreck European industry. The Kremlin is likely to welcome the poisoning of the atmosphere among Western allies. 



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 26, 2022, 10:11:55 PM
I'm not making fun of you, ralfy, you're entitled to your opinions, but have you ever paused a moment and considered that you have indicated you think you know more about these matters than the CIA? An agency with its finger on the pulse of the world? Which employs some of the most intelligent people on the planet, which operates in real time on a constant basis to gather intelligence on every global situation worth gathering information upon? You honestly think you have some pipeline to information that the world's premier intelligence service does not? Look back, you indicated it. That does not move your inner needle even a little to think....maybe I could be.....(the w-word)?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 10:13:22 PM
Finally, as part of our policy of ecouraging these self-righteous, delusional know-nothings to "expand their sources," let's hear more from Brzezinski, from 2017:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72HrccCDPhc#)

Notable points:

- "United States of Europe"

- some should not have been admitted to the EU because they don't have "qualifications"

- "quasi accommodations" and the Ukrainians outdoing the Russians, e.g., nationalism; uncertainty from Russia because Crimea is constrained by "international" factors, leading to a "duel"

- Russians have been at a loss and compensated through "false pride" and "misunderstanding of Russian history" but also "the quest for money"; there is an "inner core" in control, expats playing the game from abroad

- the public will want a society like that of Western Europe, i.e., "law-abiding"

- the Chinese "have done exceptionally well" but there is "a growing alienation" between the "elite" and "the masses" such that there might soon be "serious upheavals in China"

The impressive experts in this thread should recognize Brzezinski:

"Ukraine is a Pawn on the Grand Chessboard"

https://english.almayadeen.net/articles/analysis/ukraine-is-a-pawn-on-the-grand-chessboard (https://english.almayadeen.net/articles/analysis/ukraine-is-a-pawn-on-the-grand-chessboard)

Quote
* with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States is the sole global power

* Europe and Asia (Eurasia) together have the largest land area, population, and economy 

* U.S. must control Eurasia and prevent another country from challenging US dominance


Notice how the twin narratives of "Putin as Hitler" and "anyone who questions the authority of the West is delusional" are being questioned, ironically, through points raised by experts that wanted to contain other countries in order to maintain U.S. dominance.

If we put the two sets of points together, what do we get?

The U.S. needs to remain dominant on a global scale. That means keeping Eurasia in control.

That's why it is outspending others militarily and has over 700 military bases and installations worldwide. That's also why it has been pushing Europe to expand NATO to countries surrounding Russia to contain the latter. That's also why it engaged in low intensity conflict and other forms of destabilization for regime change: replace political leaders who criticize the U.S. in favor of those who will support it. And there's a long history of that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change)

Finally, that's also why it provides military and financial aid with strings attached, and even imposed policies that backfired on borrowers, like structural adjustment via the IMF-WB.

Unfortunately, the nationalism that drives Ukraine is also driving Russia, and even China. Both and many other countries, including India, are answering back at the U.S. and even at the EU. In addition, many of these countries remember what the West did in terms of manipulation and intervention throughout those decades.

But, as pointed out by some, this is an issue involving realpolitik: there is no "righteousness" involved or even issues concerning cultural profiling or defending "freedom" and "democracy." Rather, countries will work for what is advantageous to them.

That's why some of the major trading partners of the "freedom-loving" West includes clerico-fascist states like China and even Saudi Arabia. That's why China was praised in the interview shared above, while U.S. allies like the Philippines are manipulated across decades. Why? Because, contrary to what our lovely German expert said earlier, it's not all about violence and death but pragmatic ethics.

Now, it's Ukraine's turn.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 10:23:32 PM
I'm not making fun of you, ralfy, you're entitled to your opinions, but have you ever paused a moment and considered that you have indicated you think you know more about these matters than the CIA? An agency with its finger on the pulse of the world? Which employs some of the most intelligent people on the planet, which operates in real time on a constant basis to gather intelligence on every global situation worth gathering information upon? You honestly think you have some pipeline to information that the world's premier intelligence service does not? Look back, you indicated it. That does not move your inner needle even a little to think....maybe I could be.....(the w-word)?

I have reason to believe that points raised by Kennan, Brzezinski, McNamara, and others not only came from intelligence reports from the CIA, they even came up with doctrines which the CIA employed in tandem with other agencies.

On top of that, the CIA is not only in the business of gathering intelligence but also creating the conditions that would lead to events that policymakers want. How do you think the U.S. was able to manipulate many countries across decades?

If you want more details, try the Pentagon Papers, Johnson's Blowback, and even the NS Archives at GWU.

In fact, I even shared some of them in my previous posts. For example,

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Finally, what does your last point mean? Are you a senior member of the CIA or U.S. intelligence? Were you able to obtain classified information on this event?


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ralfy on November 26, 2022, 10:31:24 PM
I almost forgot to post the customary and, "like totally" non-pretentious lines from poems:

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.


I'd really like to share some Coleridge, but I can't find anything that fits. Will Wordsworth do?

Quote
A slumber did my spirit seal;
I had no human fears:
She seemed a thing that could not feel
The touch of earthly years.

No motion has she now, no force;
She neither hears nor sees;
Rolled round in earth's diurnal course,
With rocks, and stones, and trees.

Probably not. How about something akin to forbidden knowledge? You know, beyond what you can reach, and you pay? That's what's happening now to both sides of this conflict, right?

Quote
A charm invests a face
Imperfectly beheld, —
The lady dare not lift her veil
For fear it be dispelled.
But peers beyond her mesh,
And wishes, and denies, —
Lest interview annul a want
That image satisfies.



Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Allhallowsday on November 26, 2022, 11:02:06 PM
(https://morningbrew-oslo.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/1574458333.gif) 

                (https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/don-t-poke-the-bear-warning-roar-growl-8g1x65x9yy66ryc6.gif)

                                              (https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/bear-passing-by-kjq7jwpyyvtin8bh.gif)


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 26, 2022, 11:35:53 PM
I think ralfy is a performance artist giving an impression of one of those argumentative nerds in a 100-level political science class who interrupts the teacher every couple minutes to advocate a stance no one else holds. I truly do. Think about it, gang, nobody could deliberately spread so much misinformation unless it was an act or hold these opinions in real life. He's actually been pretty funny and hasn't broken character yet. I could be wrong but I think he's role playing and laughing along with us.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 27, 2022, 04:36:32 AM
Could be. On the other hand, he does make some good points. He just drowns them in a one-sided argument. *shrugs* I know I am not wasting any of my time with his posts though if I can help it.

I'm still taken aback by the retreat from Kherson. While from a strategic point of view it makes sense from the Russian side to retreat from it, I thought because of its symbolic value (and that it was serving as a roadblock on the road to Crimea), Putin would pull a Stalin and decide the city had to be defended no matter what the cost. I've read the reports of Russia preparing defences up to 60km behind the current frontline and evacuating Crimea. With having visitors at work this week, I've been a bit out of touch with the news and only had time to skim through things.

On a side note, I wonder how this whole conflict will affect Russian plans in a wider context. There seemingly were plans on expanding the number of Russian bases on foreign soil by up to 50% in the immediate future (mostly in African countries). Will they have the resources to continue with these and will these countries still be willing to host them? This whole thing has been a rather heavy blow to their military prestige and those in power might just have several reasons to reconsider the benefits of such projects.

I wonder if Putin had just kept to slowly nibbling away at Ukrainian territory, would the west have stood up to him, even in the limited way they have so far? Did he have a Munich moment where he looked at his opposition and decided he had nothing to really fear from them? Did he really believe the Ukrainian people would greet his troops as liberators and foolishly assume their military forces would just roll over them? Had he taken them more seriously and put a number of troops equal to the task instead of a small percentage of what is required in place maybe he would have been able to take the entire country before anyone else could really do anything.

There seems to be something self-destructive in the human race where we allow people like this to rise to positions of power. No country is immune to getting "crazy SOB"s into power, indeed they seem to reach positions of power with alarming regularity and not just by revolutions. Oh well, that is a topic for another day.

More truckloads of aid donations from Lossiemouth have reached Poland on their way to Ukraine. Feels good to know we are doing at least something to help out. I wish we could do more.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: indianasmith on November 27, 2022, 09:06:18 AM
For me, the bottom line is Ukraine didn't invade Russia.  Ukraine wasn't GOING to invade Russia.  Ukraine hasn't invaded ANYONE in the last century that I know of.
Russia is not a democracy; Putin wields almost total power over Russia's foreign policy.
PUTIN made the decision to invade and take over Ukraine.  Putin sentenced thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and tens of thousands of Russian soldiers to their deaths, not to mention thousands of civilians as well.
Putin CHOSE to launch the largest European war since World War II.
He may or may not be a "crazy SOB," but he IS an evil man and a mass murderer.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 27, 2022, 09:32:30 AM
Oh, but, Indy, the US MADE him do it! He had no choice! Why can't you see that???? The poor man had every option taken away by the evil West til....til he had nothing left he could do.  I feel so bad for Putin. As an American this is my lowest point of shame, all that blood on my hands.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: ER on November 27, 2022, 10:22:41 AM
Final thoughts....

I see it all like this. If a home invader breaks into your neighbor's house and is trying to steal what's his and kill his family, you don't analyze what motivated the home invader, you help your neighbor out, especially if he has children affected b the invader's cruelty.

To excuse Putin by saying he was provoked is like blaming the victim of a date rape because of how she was dressed. There are lines one doesn't cross.

If the US has done things that are wrong, then two wrongs don't make what Russia did right, it makes Putin equally wrong and equally open to condemnation as a warmonger. So I condemn Putin's LATEST invasion as I've condemned all of them for the last almost twenty years. It is wrong and Putin is a corrupt, murderous dictator, the worst leader in Europe since Hitler.

And, ralfy, if you are serious in the points you've raised, then you're silly and have zero idea how to make an argument and no awareness of the setting and audience you're trying to reach. That's been your main failing, a tone deafness for this crowd. Although if as I suspect, you're having us all on by going to the depths of absurdity, then you're a hilarious genius. My hat goes off to you for being wiling to make yourself an ass in everyone's eyes for the sake of comedy.

And, to answer your question, no, I am not "senior CIA" just a stay at home Mom enjoying retirement and getting ready to turn forty-four, an age I find myself surprised to reach.

And actually while I'm thinking of "senior" CIA, the loftier the title someone holds in the CIA, the less important that person tends to be. Political appointees come and go and mostly get in the way of those with real influence. The real power is held by people you will never hear of, dear. In the CIA it can get a little like the mafia, loyalty given to figures within the agency, and the real work springing from that. Little lesson for you I'll toss in for free so you can find graphs and charts to counterpoint me and give us all a good chuckle. Really, you're a brilliant satirist.  :thumbup:

Happy trails, everyone!


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 27, 2022, 04:59:28 PM
Oh, but, Indy, the US MADE him do it! He had no choice! Why can't you see that???? The poor man had every option taken away by the evil West til....til he had nothing left he could do.  I feel so bad for Putin. As an American this is my lowest point of shame, all that blood on my hands.

LOL!

Ralfy brings up things that happened a lifetime or a century ago to excuse pooty. Well if you want to do that one can bring up what happened when Hitler was allowed to annnex countries and territories long ago without resistance to justify stopping poots now, especially after he stole Crimea a few years back.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Morpheus, the unwoke. on November 27, 2022, 08:30:11 PM
No matter how one tries to excuse pooty if he intended his act to benefit russia he is a grossly inept and unfit leader, certainly not one fit to lead a nation with a nuclear arsenal of any size.

Rather than benefit Russia his actions have harmed it terribly, the sanctions have crippled much of its economy and industry, their military has been humiliated and decimated,  they're a pariah state and a laughing stock on the world stage.

His act lead Russia to disaster and his inability to forsee the results mark him unfit to lead a boy scout troop let alone a failed state with a nuclear arsenal. No amount of America bashing,  west blaming and citing events of 50-100 years past can his pooty's failing abd his exposure as a leader who can only think in terms of force, violence and murder as solutions to issues.

How could a ''world leader'' be so inept as to not for see obvious negative reactions to his act?  By being a despot who value loyalty to himself as the only virtue in those around him, who surrounds himself with ruthless yes men who only tell him he's right, by crushing or murdering anyone who tries to tell him disagreeable truths while rewarding his sycophants with license to steal the nation's wealth for praising his every decision as genius.

These are the results of allowing a ruthless, homocidial,  psychopathic narcissist into power.

Indianasmith was right when he said that the blood of all who have died in this catastrophe are on poots hands, yes even the two poles who died when a ukranian intercept missile struck Poland accidentally.


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: lester1/2jr on November 28, 2022, 12:23:41 AM
Ukraine is not exactly what we would call a Jeffersonian democracy either


Title: Re: The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!
Post by: Alex on November 28, 2022, 05:25:07 AM
A Russian official has admitted to severe shortages facing their troops confessing they had a lack of socks (particularly dangerous at this time of year), doctors, communications and intelligence. Such admissions while rare, have been coming out increasingly often.

The UK is sending Sea King helicopters to give Ukraine a search and rescue facility. That particular platform while old was a good one and I was sorry to see them go out of service. Hopefully, they will continue their previous role and save many more lives within the golden hour.