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Putin appears to be launching a full-on military invasion of Ukraine.
I had truly hoped he was bluffing!   This could really be the beginning of World War 3 . . .

And our former President is praising Putin for it!
If anyone ever doubted what a despicable traitor Donald Trump is, here's the proof - our ally is under attack, and he's praising the dictator launching the attack!
Just . . . awful.

Awful.

what did trump say?

Great. Just great. I'm only hoped that Alberto Fernandez (President of Argentina, my country) for one time in his life don't say anything, don't think anything, because each time he speaks, or he contrary himself, or for worst, said what you really want to hear. Even if those words are antagonist between them.

I mean, the guy could tell to Ukrainians "We, Argentina, supports you, we believe in Freedom, in Justice, in Democracy, in Equality, and we don't want that any country in the World be invaded for anyone, specially for those Great Power Nations that along the History of Humankind were and still they are abusing disadvantaged countries". And, at the same time, he could twit "Vlad, you are doing well".

What a jerk.

For the most part, he said he wanted to French kiss Putin. Or toss his salad.

Myself- I could give a rat's ass about the Ukraine- they're almost as bad as Russia.
But yeah- Putin's pushing his luck too far. He may end up biting his own ass.
What Russia is doing is similar to what Germany did with Poland in 1939. Hitler claimed Poland attacked at the border to Germany (they didn't), so he blitzed them.
Yeah, this could go bad.  :bluesad:

I wouldn't worry too much at the moment about the war spreading. The world has known this was going to happen for months (if not longer). If any of our countries were going to get involved, we'd already have troops on the ground over there. We'll give material support, put sanctions in place that won't change much. Of more consequence for us directly will be the effect on food prices as well as natural gas. I'd imagine there are a lot of people in Europe who will be facing a very expensive or cold winter.

Unless Russia starts doing something the rest of the world can't ignore then I think Putin will get away with this one sadly.

My sympathies lie with the Ukrainian people. I hope they are able to defend their country successfully.

Trump continues to be a national embarrassment and water is wet

I have friends in Ukraine.  :bluesad:

I don't have much context for this picture she posted. Caption says it's Kiev.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274698453_5054404891295594_8814952404148346504_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=Ymp6hYt-YsQAX9DZn4A&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT8TqNS54VLPBwIBTbGsAhRNkFrhUZU5tvsBZW_PRYYPDg&oe=621CC428)

I hope your friend is able to stay safe.

Yeh-missiles are flying now on 3 fronts.  :bluesad:

We knew something like this was gonna happen if they kept expanding NATO.

Don't forget Putin has been pulling the same s**t with Georgia* which is nowhere near NATO territory. He has said several times he wants to rebuild the USSR. This was going to happen regardless.

* Not to forget Moldavia and Chechnya as well.

Agreed.

that is neither here nor there. the direct cause of this conflagration is Ukraine possibly entering into NATO and the US setting up shop on russia's border. both sides have addressed this issue numerous times in the days and weeks preceding this

Oh it is very much here or there. NATO is just a convenient excuse and if he didn't have that, he'd have found another one, just like he did for the countries he has invaded that were nowhere near NATO expansion.

and why was it a "convenient excuse"? why was it convenient and good to use as an excuse? because it was real and happening and tangible, unlike the idea that he was going to somehow bring back the Soviet Union

Ukraine has been begging to join NATO for years, for obvious reasons. Ukraine wanted to join NATO so Russia would not invade, Russia wanted to invade Ukraine so it would not join NATO. Chicken and the egg.

Ok, let's put this in simple terms.

Putin wants all the old territory the Soviet Union controlled. In order to sell this to the Russian people he has been using NATO as a bogeyman and claiming its expansion is in order to threaten the Russian Federation (ignoring that most NATO members have seriously slashed their defence budgets since the end of the Cold War and would lack the manpower and equipment required to seriously take part in a war against it). If he didn't have this he'd have to come up with something different. Usual ways of achieving this include false flag terrorist operations, but there are other ways. Since he does have the NATO expansion though, he doesn't need to do that. Hence it is a convenient excuse for him. Ukraine has said it would like to join NATO, but NATO has never said it can. The closest has been that it (NATO) has said it (Ukraine) isn't ready to join.

He wants to retake all the territory that the Soviet Union controlled. To achieve this he has launched military operations in several of them (as mentioned previously, in countries that are nowhere near NATO countries, have not expressed an interest in joining).

Ever put some thought into why these countries want to join NATO? To get protection from exactly the stuff Putin is doing. He might claim that NATO getting closer to Russia is a threat to them, but there are areas that have been attacked and invaded many times by Russia over the centuries. Maybe if they didn't they would have more friendly countries on their borders.

He is trying to dictate to other nations what their foreign policy should be. I wonder how you'd feel if another country was telling yours what it could and couldn't do.

Let's not forget, NATO was put together in the first place as a defensive alliance (and still is) as a counter to Soviet aggression. Its members come to each other's aid if one is attacked. There is nothing in there about coming together to launch a war. The reason so many eastern European countries joined Hitler's war against the U.S.S.R. is because it had been terrorising its neighbours and stealing territory off them. What is happening now is just a repeat of what they have been doing for a very long time whether it is the Russian Empire, USSR or Russian Federation.

I don't know how many people I've told this, but I've always had a sneaking suspicion I'd be alive for the apocalypse.  Of all the things I've gotten wrong in my life, why did this happen to be the one it looks like I got right.

Agreed

You are mistaken.  It is totally THERE.  NATO is his pretext and the assumption that the "western allies" were hollow.  NATO gets in the way of pootin  rebuilding the "evil empire".  

Yeah I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Why it happened does not seem to be the most important issue at the moment.
They have foot soldiers on the ground; bombs are dropping.
I'm worried where this will lead. A lot of countries are p**sed. When will Putin commit some massacre that draws NATO into a foot war? I am not optimistic.

Ya gotta understand, Lester will never acknowledge America is right when it comes to foreign policy.

Ironically, if Putin successfully annexes Ukraine he will have a massive border with NATO.

POOtin is working off of a 20th century playbook.  It's a disaster that can only worsen.  God help the people on the ground. 

Yeh, that POOtin is a "peacemaker".  Piece of sh!t maker. 

I would suggest people read Putins speech if you get the chance

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/full-transcript-vladimir-putin-s-televised-address-to-russia-on-ukraine-feb-24)

It's mostly about Russia's relationship with NATO. He lays it all out there


indianasmith - I liked when both Biden and Trump killed ISIS leaders.



that said let me add one thing: the whole talking point of "this didn't happen under Trump" is stupid. If Trump were president he would have launched a missile at Moscow and we'd be in a world of hurt. That guy was ignorant about how the world works and also nuts.

Well, we agree on Trump, too, then! LOL

I saw some moron on FB had a Bat-signal modified with Trump's profile shining in the sky, with the caption: "The Whole World Right Now!"

And I thought, how clueless can these people get? Trump was the MOST unpopular American leader abroad in decades.  He was a laughing stock, but they seem to think he's Jesus, Batman, and John Wayne all rolled into one.

It's a freaking cult.

Well, China made all sorts of moves in Hong kong (RIP) while he was POTUS. He bombed General Soleimani and Iran responded by... not changing anything about their strategy re Iraq and also ramping up their nuclear efforts.

China Russia and Iran are ancient countries who have stuck around for a reason. Trump and Biden are blips on their radar.


best case scenario now would be if Russia agreed to pull back in return of a guarentee that Ukraine not be admitted into NATO. Can Biden and his shifty sec state Blinken pull that off? I doubt it but not impossible

Trump didn't have the United states dependent on Russian oil.

Think Biden'll Wag The Dog for Burisma?

Unfortunately Iran did a lot in response to the killing of Soleimani. Much more than made the 6:30 news.

Borrowed from another site.

Make no mistake- The US imposing financial sanctions on Russia while at the same time continuing to purchasing millions in oil from Russia makes the sanctions nothing more than a publicity stunt and that action by the US is dumber than anything Russia is currently doing.  The US is funding the murder of Ukrainians tonight.

 ^Yeah, I've seen some of the webpages you site. Hoo boy, break out the tin foil.  :lookingup:

Russia is bombing the Ukraine. People are dying.

Yet here you talk mumbo jumbo s**t about the US. What a patriot!

The US is not dependent on Russian oil whatsoever. 7% was imported from Russia. 30% from Canada. Most of our oil comes from right here.

And you got balls to even mention Trump's name in connection with Russia, with his recent appalling comments.

Whats also sad about this mess is many Russian citizens want nothing to do with the war. Protesters are hitting the streets in Moscow, St.Petersburg, and other cities.  :bluesad:

I'd like to see Putin riding shirtless leading the charge!
f**king war pig.  :hatred:

This.  Anyone else having Cold War flashbacks?  It is very odd to me that this seems to be such a blind spot for so many.

Putin wants his Empire back and he regards NATO as an empire in competition with him.

I don't think there is any question about his sanity.  He's NQR in his psyche.  That is the scariest part.

Unfortunately, he is a cold war relic and is stuck with that mindset. Ex-KGB who worked with the Stasi (by all accounts a wonderfully lovely bunch of people) in East Germany. I'd mentioned to Kristi last night that I thought this crap was all over with back in '92.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274536042_4814272691982266_1761028264762167471_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Gi_q3Cog3pIAX_2YFKi&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_2m9T-kWxRrGk76RU0Wv4SRA0nII5tEYlrmXJmhKtsCw&oe=621DA405)

A picture from my friend's facebook feed. I don't know the context as the translated caption doesn't make sense to me: "Kiev. Kirílívsʹka (former Frunze) under the bridge exit on Olena Telíg. The enemy of the drg broke through in the center, but got tickets for the cabzon concert. Glory to Ukraine!!!"

I fear one day soon she will not post and I won't know whether she's still alive or just without Internet.

Insane as this sounds, it's true, Russian oil is still flowing, and it is funding Putin's horror show.

I am encouraged by the number of Russians protesting what Putin is doing.

Most of our oil came from "here" during the Trump Administration.
Biden shut down domestic production for green stuff that doesn't work, green stuff that is heavily dependent on polymers from oil.

Trump certainly bent over backwards for Saudi Arabia, who are worse than Putin and are doing a ukraine invasion to their neighbor Yemen on a daily basis

You are right, a long standing stain on America. 

Speaking anecdotally, we Northeast Americans are much more closely involved with Europe as a culture.  I spent 10 years living among Ukrainians and their Orthodox churches in Manville, NJ.  My oldest friend is Ukrainian and her family are getting updates from family still there.  Families in subways seeking shelter from missiles... Any war exposes pigs.  War pigs. 

^Isn't a moratorium the same thing?^ ^Besides, he doubled all the fees that US companies pay.^
And he's on record BEGGING OPEC to increase production.

Biden is also on record saying Russia would face minor consequences for a minor incursion..........

From the very beginning, creepy joe has made it clear to the world that he has no backbone, and he's made it clear to the american people that he's never had their best interest in mind

It's sad that literally we could see on a screen how a country is invaded in real time, and the only thing that we could, is acting like a color commentator on a game: saying the obvious.

Here, in Argentina, in the Capital City, C.A.B.A (Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires), El Obelisco is painted with the Ukrainian colors.

The irony, is that the official Government's statement, which didn't come from Alberto Fernandez's lips, but from a spokesman (well, spokeswoman) about the conflict, was so soft, so indifferent, just a 'we feel sorrow for what happens in Ukraine' and there is not a single word about who is the invader, and for what reason is the invasion.

It feels like the statement could be used for past or future invasion, just changing 'Ukraine' for the name of the invaded country and if it is convenient add the name of the invader.

I keep hearing small bits of encouragement, such as this Ukraine jet fighter that that the Russians can't keep up with, or how they passed out free guns & the people used them, setting the Russians back a bit...

But it's still sad.
It seems nobody wanted this but Putin.
Even the Russian people didn't want it....

I hope Biden doesn't get us involved, just keep trying more sanctions.....

It seems that the Russian invasion is not going as well as they had planned and the basic day one objectives have not been met. Good for the Ukrainians. I did like their president's alleged reply to an offer to evacuate him (I don't need evacuation, I need anti-tank shells).

Russia has issued a threat to Finland after in response to Russia's illegal invasion of the Ukraine, their Prime Minister has suggested they will apply for full NATO membership before the next election and some reports suggest Russia is massing troops on Poland's border. One UK minister has already said that if one Russian soldiers boot sets foot on NATO soil then it is war.

For the moment I suspect everyone will stick to sanctions which are a good way of pretending you are doing something, while not really doing anything. China has already lowered its trade restrictions with Russia to counter the already quite weak western sanctions. Maybe if Russia is prevented from accessing SWIFT, it might do something to hurt them, but it still won't change their course.

I wonder at what point people will really stand up against a tyrant?

Russian warship, go f**k yourself.

https://youtu.be/6Y2iVHUMZhg

And hey, my friend's still alive as of 6 minutes ago!

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274300256_3766048820200687_3681968855288612100_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ZhQHWHbv4S8AX-Y6fAZ&_nc_oc=AQm0KiU-EuoWk6kZWCaXta0zmEX987-kkaKFXCDrYeVBDbti1NM5ui-l1Jjk6W7xvmc&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_N2RCnwXHD0BKF1v90YV49tUKbaFerlnBb68tTdGnUCg&oe=621ECA92)

Well, Russian people have a lot of reasons to kick him, especially the Women Rights movements, and the LGBT+ communities, but mostly of the opposition's leaders, are in jail.

Finland is the other country that has a past with Russia. There is a infamous moment when Molotov said, during the Winter War, that the Soviets are not bombing Finland, they are just dropping food for the people  :lookingup:

I wish I could shake the feeling that Ukraine is being sacrificed on some sort of political altar.  Putin simply does not play by the same rules as the rest of the world seems to expect.

So far he is just pulling the same kind of crap guys like Hitler and Stalin did. He will continue until someone stands up to him. Let's just hope they do it before it is too late. You'd think people would learn from history but apparently not.

^ History? Who reads anymore if it's not in a tweet?  :question:

The problem with putting boots on the ground is it's a short slide from there to nuclear war. That would be game over for all of us!

What is another word for bed-pan? 

Poo-tin.

Trump was giving The Ukraine weapons, now ALL of their neighbors are supplying weapons....

That's what we should be doing, like when Reagan gave weapons to Afghanistan when The Soviets invaded...

^ well, considering recent history, we might have been better off with a communist Afghanistan being paid for and administered by Russia


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/26/us/politics/ukraine-europe-refugees.html?referringSource=articleShare)  



lets demonize people taking in refugees. nice angle!

I can't read this article.
It says I need a subscription.

^ It's a free sub.

The link at the top of the page says it's $1 a week....
If the online ads aren't making them enough, it's certainly not worth jumping through the hoops of getting a paid sub, no matter how cheap.

Why could I read it?



I had a passenger from Bosnia tonight. Older gay guy. He hated Putin but said he was going to win.

Basically, Russia has two loyal areas in Ukraine. Putin is going to destabilize Ukraine then go back to those areas and wait. He can then threaten to lob missiles at them until they agree to not join NATO.

It's an ugly situation but no one is going to risk ww3 over Ukraine, which itself is barely a democracy.

Nata's still alive today.

These aren't her pictures. I gather they're from the approach to Kyiv.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274824141_4623501837749554_3574083942763326042_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=AFSsEGrJ7zQAX89cMlz&tn=eoYOeHuy1nZBQ0xA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9sh6-ctvVIPlGzi5dlIBtN9JFNdKzkdF4JGY3mejXTSQ&oe=6220361E)

Vlad, the feral ferret eyed dictator of Russia, has put a nuclear threat in the mix.
Hey, he's surrounded by NATO. Who have many more nukes then him. It would be suicide. But with nut jobs like this guy, you never know. Hitler, Stalin, Mao- they didn't care who died. It could happen.  :bluesad:
I don't think it will, though. The whole world (except China and Donald Trump) is against him.

 WWI and WWII  happened over many the same reasons.
Chamberlin said after meeting with Hitler- "it's peace in our time." Then Hitler blitzed Poland. I don't underestimate scumbags like this.
It's odd that dictators in Africa can get away with this s**t every day-but when it involves white nations- then we give a f**k. I hate every politician in this world.  :hatred:

I don't think WW2 is a good analogy here. It's essentially the last dust up of the cold war, as a now relatively powerless Russia asserts itself as best it can against total domination by the victorious West.

What's another word for bed-pan? 
Poo-tin.   :bluesad:

Except this war is not 'cold'.
It's hotter than hell in the Ukraine right now.

^what I keep thinking about, was just how cautious both bushes were with deploying ground troops following long, drawn out air strikes....^

It's looking like he thought this was going to be a cake walk, but it wasn't....
I keep getting conflicting stories about how well/poorly the Russian advance is going, with right wing nooz outlets reporting Ukrainian successes on the battlefield, while left wing nooz keeps reporting how close the Russians are to Kyiv.....

I don't think Putin was expecting the backlash back home either, & it's stating to sound like he's threatening a BIG temper tantrum.....

Putin has always been very calculating and deliberate, and this sudden, rash action with such potential for disaster makes me wonder if there's something wrong with him.  Like maybe he's found out he has cancer and has decided to stake it all on one roll of the dice?

 ^ Indy- monsters like Putin don't need a reason to be evil.
If he thinks he's f**ked, he'll go full Götterdämmerung.

My hope is there will be a peace deal and also that I will buy the ruble at the lows beforehand

You can hope in one hand and sh!t in the other.
Usually end up with a handful of sh!t.
I know I'm being a real Debbie Downer, but I got a bad gut feeling on this.  :bluesad:

Mad Vlad is making noises about using nuclear weapons and has his nuclear strike force on high alert. If he does that, all bets are off.

Peace talks are taking place but I don't have high hopes for them. Russia's assault seems to have faltered so they might not have the grounds to get their demands met. Kristi is sorting out donations of supplies to be sent to Ukraine and I am going to see if I can take a day off work to help deliver them. If a peace deal is signed I suspect it will not be long before a second war and even before then I'd expect Russia to commit more forces to the fight.

EDIT: Sweden has abandoned its long policy of neutrality and is sending 5000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.

I saw an article saying that Pornhub has gotten into the sanctions, too - any user from Russia who tries to visit their site is redirected to a YouTube video of the Ukrainian national anthem.

Nata's still alive and posting. She bought groceries and flowers yesterday. Somehow, life in Kyiv goes on, impossible to imagine how.  :thumbup:

An article on how Putin's invasion has managed to kick start a whole bunch of things he's been trying to avoid.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/vladimir-putin-has-achieved-the-impossible-by-invading-ukraine/ar-AAUp7Gw?ocid=msedgntp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/vladimir-putin-has-achieved-the-impossible-by-invading-ukraine/ar-AAUp7Gw?ocid=msedgntp)

Ha! I always suspected pornographers were great humanitarians!  :cheers:

But if Pornhub make sanctions to Russian p0rn sites, mostly of the adult content on Internet could not be watched.

Now, that is a good measure for rising the Russian people against the Ukrainian invasion, because what is 'worst' than an angry Russian guy: an angry Russian guy without p0rn (no offense).

I would imagine many of them will find it somewhat deflating. Imagine if this was the thing to bring down Putin.

I see that Fifa is banning Russia from the World cup, and Russians takes soccer very seriously,  like Americans to football. 

I can't hear you. 

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/HJtzyzDuIhFr3Bf.yaTvKw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2022-02/417de5d0-98c2-11ec-bf3f-aa47d35384f3)

Nata's still alive this morning, and has Internet access (which is more surprising). But I fear the real battle for Kyiv has yet to start.

She posted this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMwPETNWUAA8LbK.jpg)

Optimistic.

^Elon Musk has sent a lot of his StarLink terminals to the Ukraine to help keep communications active.^

I watched some of Oliver Stones Ukraine documentary from 2014 last night. It was kind of half of a documentary, just all Anti US pro Russia. it was interesting to hear those perspectives but He was too wrapped up in the big story to, gee I don't know, interview some actual Ukrainians? Disappointing

If you're over in the Ukraine and you capture a Russian tank or other military equipment there's no need to declare it (https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/804441.html) on your taxes

Oh thank you for that sprite!

"Have you captured a Russian tank or armored personnel carrier and are worried about how to declare it?"

That delights me.   :bouncegiggle:   "Heroiam slava!"

Nata's still posting today.  :thumbup: It's her wedding anniversary. Kyiv is on Putin's backburner now.

Good article, long but worth the read: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340 (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340)

The world is such a strange place sometimes.  Something I think about sometimes, especially with a guy like Putin.  Putin is pushing 70.  He could have a heart attack and keel over, like Warren G Harding did.  Odds aren't even that astronomical looking at charts of it - 1-2% chance of death in a year.  There's rumors he has a terminal disease already.  What would happen then?  It'd be impossible to say.  Russia doesn't seem well-prepared for it though.  Who knows what the oligarchs would do.  Would this war abruptly end, or are they too committed?

Something is off when one man's life matters so much in the path of history in a world of billions. 

People like this give me hope.

An old Ukrainian woman gives Russian soldiers sunflower seeds that will grow on their graves.
Sunflowers are Ukraine's national flower.

Then she basically says ' f**k you!'

http://youtu.be/pekBo-ynIhI (http://youtu.be/pekBo-ynIhI)

Now that I dig.

Nata is still posting. In fact, today she posted pictures feeding the pigeons. No war images.

A Russian convoy is now reportedly stalled 20 miles outside Kyiv.

Since biden won't do it, a couple of US companies quit buying Russian oil...
Gonna hurt us more than it does them, but I guess it sends a statement...

Nata's still feeding the pigeons. Even though they're shelling Kyiv.

https://youtu.be/Oke_-kJg8pg

I guess you send a statement too, what that is...???  :question:

It's become morally inexcusable to fund Putin by purchasing his oil.

If the world quit buying Russian oil, Putin's regime would collapse. Russia is already imploding in slow motion in the realm of history, has been for decades with its low birth rates and internal decay, but without oil to sell, the country would simply descend into third world status. (Which could be even more dangerous.)

It's not a scientific survey, but every Russian I have spoken to in the last fifteen years hated Putin and wanted him gone. I look on this aggression in Ukraine as Putin's fault, not Russian people's, though I'd like to see more open resistance and non-cooperation among Russians inside Russia, and sanctions may nudge that along.

I know they have motivation to be so, but the courage of the Ukrainians who are standing in front of Russian tanks is humbling. War brings out the best and the worst at the same time.

I drive for a living. I'm not going to pay 10 a gallon for gas so NATO can expand it's operations in yet another former soviet territory. I feel bad for Ukraine though and in fact Ukraine could be any of us. What if China started supporting secession in Texas or Florida or gave Mexico weapons to take back California?

We are all just pawns in the big chess game of the rich and powerful.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNCUh6LWUAQ2CqV?format=jpg&name=small)

Nata is still feeding the pigeons and begging for donations. I'm afraid the siege of Kyiv will start soon.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274894120_4996890077036355_8118750812625971575_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sDIrGAtnRsoAX8PRM21&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_Wrpv2ItrSMob7Cg-lCUSfosHOhCeJazRTVf4Wfo2l6w&oe=62289E31)


My Russian friend is continuing to post despite Russia saying they've cut off access to Facebook. I guess he's using a VPN. He's not saying anything too inflammatory but I'm suddenly a little afraid for him too when I hear about Putin's crackdown on "fake news."

Apparently it's illegal in Russia to call this a war, it's a "special operation."

Well, it looks like no one should fret too much about Russian gas; it's pretty low. They're convoy is stalled. It ran out of gas!

It's not because they ran out of gas, it's because the Russians are having a hard time getting the gas to the tanks, as well as food & spare parts due to bottlenecking & Ukrainian attacks.
Making a single 40 mile long convoy was strategically a pretty bad idea.

^ If they can't get the gas to the tanks...then they'er out of gas! Which gets me to thinking (uh oh!) did the trucks bring them gas run out of gas?  :question:
Or was there never any gas on the way?

From what I've read from some military people, it sounds like Russian tanks were poorly maintained and not run frequently enough but corruption in logging means they can't really even tell easily what has and hasn't been maintained.  They didn't do things like limit sun exposure and monitor tires, check for rust, all kinds of stuff.  So the tires seem ok at a glance, but have gotten weak; this means they can't drive well through Ukrainian mud (which apparently is brutal) without shredding and getting stuck.  So now they have to drive on a limited number of roads and mostly stick together, making them easier targets.  

Russia blew this initial attack in a number of ways; almost every expert overestimated how fit the Russian military was.  While it makes me happy for Ukraine, it makes me worry for the world; I don't like the idea of badly corrupt and inept fools with thousands of nukes.  Failures in the missile detection systems in the USSR days nearly led to nuclear war in the 1980s, I don't want that to happen again when we have less competent and moral people than Stanislav Petrov at the button.

Honestly, we've known for decades that the Russian military is in a bad way. They use conscripts who are badly trained and brutally treated by their comrades-in-arms as well as their commanders. The deployment of their one aircraft carrier to Syria a couple of years back was a disaster for them. They lost two jets (one was due to the deck catapult failing if I recall correctly and I can't remember why they lost the other one, although I am pretty sure it was another accident). The ship's water filtration system failed and they had to send out a supply ship to give them fresh water (although I think the sailors had to go without showers for the duration). I think I might have even heard that the engine failed on the route home and it had to be towed at least part of the way back. The problem is that people can learn from these mistakes and make sure they don't happen the next time (I believe the Admiral Kuznetsov went in for a major refit to fix these problems for example and an intensive training regime was planned for its sailors). I'd rather see Russia not learn from its mistakes and make them later on. The first Chechen campaign used up all the Russian army's ammunition supplies for the next five years and evidently, they have a terrible system in place for command and control for their fighters.

Still, all this is an improvement on the days when electricity companies shut off supplies to Russian military bases because they couldn't afford to pay their electric bills. Much of their equipment is still Cold War relics (although they do have some quite scary modern kit). I wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat of what happened in the Winter War of 39-40.

This is stating to feel like the new OJ Simpson Trial.....
Other stuff going on in the world & in America, but not a peep about it.....

I look at the maps, & it looks like Russia's gained very little ground, yet I turn on the 6:30 nooz from any of the big three netwerks, and they make it sound like putin's plowed halfway across the country, the collapse of the Ukraine could be any hour now....

Did Russia have this hard of a time with Georgia or Crimea?

Neither Georgia or Crimea had 8 years to prepare for an invasion and were much smaller operations that didn't expose the weaknesses of the Russian war machine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War if you want more details.

Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons.

(https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/%2Fmethode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fd6b5a9fc-9c7e-11ec-931c-643306e9125f.jpg?crop=4535%2C2551%2C214%2C476&resize=1200)

My Russian friend's still posting, complaining about sanctions, nothing blatantly anti-war.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNFaTURXIAY4c_M?format=jpg&name=small)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNKskTsXMAMxrQk?format=jpg&name=small)

The guy in the top picture has really had it.

Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons, reports coffee's still available. Judging by the pictures she is choosing to post, the streets of Kyiv are almost completely deserted. No context for this one:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/274926504_10227216961669494_4120391713932383528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=t9r_gH9Eaa4AX-5CS8j&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9KTvKcr_Q0r0qVXzBRpI_fhaKzSd2Tr64MrRXJwcfLbA&oe=622AF2FD)

Nata continues to feed the pigeons. It's become a small act of defiance. For the first time today you could see other people out in the park besides her husband. I have to rely on Facebook translations, but it sounds like she said her elderly father had gotten out of the city and was telling others which bridge was safe to use to exit Kyiv.

...and now a statement from the ex-POTUS-


"At a speech in New Orleans on Saturday night, Trump mused that we could simply apply Chinese flags to our F-22s and then “bomb the s--t out of Russia,” setting off a conflict between those two countries.

“And then we say, China did it, we didn’t do it, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch,” Trump said,"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/06/trump-muses-about-really-bad-quite-possibly-illegal-idea-bomb-russia-using-chinese-flags/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/06/trump-muses-about-really-bad-quite-possibly-illegal-idea-bomb-russia-using-chinese-flags/)

Super genius!


(https://i.imgur.com/k7vLpMX.gif) (https://lunapic.com)

  Meanwhile, Putin says he'll open up roads for refugees...into RUSSIA!?
I don't know which comment is more moronic.

(https://i.imgur.com/4KC510M.gif) (https://lunapic.com)

Yes, Trump has been known for his bad jokes.
Still not as moronic as Biden's SOTU.....

Bad joke?
Almost as bad as nuking hurricanes and injecting bleach.
Known for his bad jokes? He's joking about people dying in Ukraine, and he's joking about WWIII?
Funny as cancer.  :hatred:

When did he say injecting bleach?

^  I'd say don't act stupid, but I don't think your acting.
Your Trump worship is getting cartoonish.
Just a hint.  :lookingup:

I'm not the one who keeps following this guy, you are.

Yeah, I follow what he says. But not for the reasons you do.
He still holds many idiots ears. And that worries me.
You follow him because...well...

Nope, still not the one following him....

I'm following the morons that are in power, like the one who shut down American oil production & is now talking in circles to explain how he had nothing to do with it....

Ok, I'm not gonna get into your your loony tune s**t over some washed up wingnut.
Carry on.

?

Perfect response from someone who doesn't have a clue.

I was just a little confuse over which "washed up wingnut" you were talking about;;;;
The one that's been OUT of the white house for the past year, or the one that's IN the white house right now????

 ^ Your a little "confuse", all right;;;
...OK. I'll go for that.  :thumbup:

So in other words, you forgot what you were talking about....

Can we start talking about the other crazy SOB again?

Looks like Russia is really surprisingly bogged down and bungled their logistics badly. Troop morale is likely low, as well. They're not making much progress and they look to be stalled right now. Of course, if it goes on long enough eventually they will simply crush Ukraine with numbers.

Also, America has banned Russian oil and I predict domestic support for Ukraine will plummet once Americans start paying more at the gas pumps. Enjoy this little bit of unity while it lasts.

That's what I keep getting from alternate nooz outlets, but the 6:30 nooz on the big three networks keep making it sound like it's the other way around....
I'm beginning to get the feeling that biden is waiting for everyone else to get involved, like Woodrow Wilson did in world war one, with a sycophantic calling for an intervention....

gas prices going up.

Are people going to tip their uber drivers more as part of the war effort?

or are drivers supposed to have a glass of water for dinner for the war effort.

I'm not hanging around to find out. gone fishin!

According to every stooge in the white house and Stephen Colbert, people who can't afford gas need to cough up $50,000 for an electric car.......

wrong Stephan Colbert was making a joke I just watched that clip.



rev powell -
I haven't seen any evidence of either of those things. They're so "bogged down" that they're about to take the capitol after like a week.

very humane move on the part of the EU here. 

https://www.newsweek.com/vaccine-delivery-canceled-country-that-did-not-condemn-russia-1685561 (https://www.newsweek.com/vaccine-delivery-canceled-country-that-did-not-condemn-russia-1685561)

I Wasn't wrong about the white house, and why is it supposed to be sick when trump references some plot device for old cartoons, but we're supposed to take it all in good humor when liberals talk about how much they hate a certain class of people?


Yes, the evening nooz is stressing just how devastating the air strikes & shelling of civilians has been, but if you google "map of russian occupation of ukraine" or some variation thereof, managed to gain very little ground.

So, when a republican tells a joke, it's not a joke, but when some rich, stuck up "comedian" hates on people, it's supposed to be a joke?

G**D***, your anger & hate have got your sense of humor all screwed up!

CAN WE F**KING PLEASE GET BACK TO PUTIN INVADING UKRAINE FOR F**K SAKES?

What worrries me is if they make it a "no fly zone".
Also what happens to Ukraine if someone doesn't stop Russia?
I don't think sanctions are going to do enough. Putin doesn't care if the Russian people starve. That pig is rich.
He's in it for the kicks and jollies.  :bluesad:

Are you confusing RC and Lester, or think they're the same person?  Lester didn't mention political parties, he didn't mention republicans, he didn't mention jokes by other people, he didn't bring up other comedians or politicians of any kind telling jokes, and he said nothing even remotely hateful or angry.  This reads as a total non-sequitur response as a result.

But back to Ukraine...


They likely will eventually if they keep pushing, but they're not about to.  They're basically talking about sending a bunch more troops into a meat grinder and fail, Ukraine has had too much time to prepare and there aren't enough troops yet to overcome.  They don't even have the city surrounded, just two sides last I looked.  It's going to be a long bloody siege looks like, and Russia will pay for every inch in blood.  I guess we'll find out in a couple more days when the current ceasefire ends. 

You two are terrible.  And funny.   :thumbup: :bouncegiggle:

anyone put off by the overt fascism on display in the Ukraine? particularly in the military ranks

You mean by the Ukrainian army or the Russian army?

I meant the Ukrainian one but that's a good point. Eastern Europe in general has a big nazi community who are also like hobbits

Breaking News!
 A Ukrainian woman has downed a drone with a jar of tomatoes as Vladimir Putin's Russian troops continue to mount with their invasion operation.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577097/ukraine-woman-down-drone-tomato-jar-russia-invasion-putin-latest-news-ont (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1577097/ukraine-woman-down-drone-tomato-jar-russia-invasion-putin-latest-news-ont)
 
Dam!  :buggedout:

That's certainly one of Putin's two talking points along with NATO. There are some independent paramilitary groups (most notably the Azov battalion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalionl)) that are far-right-wing. Of course, it would be better if they weren't tolerated, but the government is not turning down their assistance in a time of emergency.

They have their own politics that are unfamiliar to us: "“In Europe, Nazis support Putin. They think that he wants to make a white, Slavic Europe,” says [Sergeant] Kharkiv [of the Azvov Battalion]. “But the white leader, Putin, kills Slavic people. I don’t know what the separatists are fighting for."

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-many-neo-nazis-is-the-us-backing-in-ukraine (https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-many-neo-nazis-is-the-us-backing-in-ukraine)

2018 article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TY)

Nata continues to post and continues to feed pigeons. Her sister and her sister's kids evacuated and is in Hungary. They think that Hungarians don't like Ukrainians.

Russian friend is still posting somehow and says he can access youtube. He's not posting anything specifically anti-Putin but you can tell he's not pro-war.

Well, it outta be cuz its an accurate one. they also typically reject any sort of diplomacy with russia which is not helpful

"After President Zelensky’s election in 2019, the extreme right threatened him with removal from office, or even death, if he negotiated with separatist leaders from Donbas and followed through on the Minsk Protocol. Zelensky had run for election as a “peace candidate,” but under threat from the right, he refused to even talk to Donbas leaders, whom he dismissed as terrorists."

https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine (https://www.codepink.org/how_the_us_has_empowered_and_armed_neo_nazis_in_ukraine)

One thing this crisis has driven home to me is that a disturbingly large percentage of the American electorate would be perfectly happy to see democracy wither here and all over the world as long as they have jobs and their gas is $1.50 a gallon.

It is frightening, stunning, and true. 

How so?
I've watched democracy get stomped on over the past year while jobs have disappeared and gas shot back up to $3.50 a gallon.

Even that article (which honestly looks to be written by far-left kooks---they frickin' cite "Moon of Alabama" as a source) states up front that "Russia exaggerating it as a pretext for war" and points out that their far-right party (and the Nazi sympathizers are a minority even in within the party) won less than 5% of the parliament. And their support is shrinking.

I find this to be pretty balanced: https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729572/the-russian-ukraine-conflict-could-strengthen-neo-fascist-groups-in-both-countri (https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729572/the-russian-ukraine-conflict-could-strengthen-neo-fascist-groups-in-both-countri)

There are Nazis everywhere. Hell, a couple of US Congresspeople just spoke at a Nazi event (where the crowd cheered for Putin, because Nazis can't seem to figure out who they support in this white-on-white conflict).

There's a right wing fringe in Ukraine, but it seems to me focusing on them only muddies the water in what is actually a rare case of moral clarity in world politics: Putin is 100% wrong. Even if you grant that there are Nazis in Ukraine, he can't invade a sovereign country to root them out. Anyone can invade anyone if that's the case.

Oh, Cerebus- employment has been pretty good.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf (https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf)

f**k gas prices. Just tighten your belt. It's a war for freedom.  Dam.
Folks don't have a place to live in Ukraine. And your worried about how much it will take to drive your fat ass to McDonald's?
Gimme a break.

So you'll be just fine with cops in swat gear stopping you for no reason & going through your pockets every time you run up the street for your bag of weed?
Did you even read this?

Swat gear? WTF are you babbling about?What does weed and cops in swat gear have to do with gas prices???

^So, I take it you DIDN"T RED IT!^

Didn"t red what???  :question:

You didn't post any link-?  :question:

Indy brought up the loss of democracy HERE, then made it sound like the train wreck we've been on for the past year is some how a good thing to him.
I don't know if he eats mcdonalds, but if he says mass unemployment is better than freedom, I'm going to take issue, and yes, that does mean your right to weed or the ability to walk down the street without getting stopped & frisked.

Woah- wait.  I'm still trying to wrap my brain around mass unemployment, me smoking weed, and getting frisked by cops. None of this makes a lick of sense.
Oh- and weed is legal here. And I don't drive anywhere to get my weed.
(https://i.imgur.com/sQD76Lx.gif) (https://lunapic.com)
Please explain even ONE line of what you wrote. Just ONE.

Our unemployment rate, nationwide, is around 4%.
We're adding jobs at a rate not seen in decades.  Right now, if you're not working, it's pretty much because you CHOOSE not to.

Or are just stupid and no one will hire you because you're bonkers.

Then how come employers are CHOSING not to return my calls or emails?
And how is $4.00 good for democracy?

A.  Because they probably read the stuff you post here.
B.  I never said it was.

Maybe because your skills are not in demand? Or, for your age, your resume is not so great?
As far as $4.00 go- most folks will spend that much on coffee every morning.

Actually, a statement like this suggests that you believe mass unemployment & out of control inflation ARE good for democracy.
It suggests seeing everyone broke & starving is a wonderful thing as long as democracy as you believe it should look falls into your narrative.

Again, you miss my point (even though it wasn't very subtle).

Everyone else seemed to have no trouble grasping it.

Really?
So far, nobody else has reacted to except RC & myself, & RC thought it was about MacDonald's

Speaks volumes about people who think poverty is great!

Hoo-boy.
I'm done here.
McDonald's. Of everything I said, the only thing that wedged between your ears was 'McDonald's'. Not "MacDonald's". Or maybe it was. Maybe both were there and you chose the wrong one?
Hey, it happens to us all.

I'm more disturbed by Americans who would steal food from the mouths of other Americans in order to support empire and nation building abroad

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNXr0mRWUAEFgQb?format=jpg&name=small)

note the wealth disparity. if you don't have to fight and your own economic situation isn't affected it's easy to be a globalist



literal Nazis and we're supposed to look the other way

Uh, who or what is  Rasmussen Poll? :question:

Dig it.

I am sorry you are broke and starving.  Please recognize the sacrifices made that enable your remarks, though I understand that is hard when you are starving.   

Misfit - an extremely well known polling co

Y'know, it occurs to me that they kept trying this same krap all throughout the obama administration, when these number don't reflect businesses that had to close down because of covid or inflation, people who's employment benefits have run out, not to mention just how many of these jobs actually pay a living wage, particularly in this record setting inflation, which this krap for brains white house is is trying to pretend has nothing to do with their policies, and are now trying to pretend high prices have nothing to do with inflation.

 ^The reason you can't get a job has nothing to do with Biden or any political machinery in operation.
Being as your on SSI, you can only work a limited amount of time a week without them reducing your check.
That being said, your resume may read your a middle aged man with limited skills who is unable to work full time.
Not very impressive. Seems like you were also out of work threw the whole Trump term- your excuse falls flat on it's face.

PS: There was no Covid under Obama, by the way.

I've heard more on Putin's latest nuke sword rattling, and  Zelensky's plea for a 'no fly zone', which is for the most part a declaration of war from NATO.
This is between a rock and a hard place for the whole world.  :bluesad:
The world is being cautious- Putin is not. He's going straight in, no rubber.

Nata is still alive, still feeding pigeons, still posting.

She reports about a large pack of 50 or so dogs living in the botanical gardens, abandoned by their owners when they fled.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-passes-bill-offering-nearly-14-billion-in-aid-to-ukraine (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-passes-bill-offering-nearly-14-billion-in-aid-to-ukraine)

enhanced child tax credit for Americans gone but plenty of money for NATO

Ukraine isn't in NATO (and was turned down when it asked to join).

but it's why the situation has been forced upon the world

So you are saying NATO not letting Ukraine in, is the cause of this situation?

if you don't understand the role of NATO expansion in this conflict I don't know what to tell you. You are either ignorant or heavily brainwashed.

I think Lester is acknowledging a no-win situation; a trap. 

If you believe NATO letting Ukraine in would have led to conflict, I expect you are correct. 

The possibility of NATO expansion into Ukraine surely has spooked poo-tin.  The ramifications are complex and huge. 

Oh I know the role of NATO expansion in it and how Putin has used it as an excuse for what he was going to do anyway. The reason they weren't being allowed in was to avoid conflict with Russia. Oddly enough, avoiding conflict with Russia was also why Ukraine wanted in.

I also know that Ukraine isn't in NATO and wasn't going to be getting in, which from your earlier post, you didn't seem to be aware of.

If you are going to nitpick : 15 billion for UKRAINE for assistance in a conflict that occurred because yaddq yadda

No enhanced child tax credit for Americans experiencing record inflation and so forth.

There, we are making progress. Well done.

Which comes out to about $49 per person...

It's a thousand bucks isn't it

Only if the population of the US is a mere 15,000,000. I think it is around 330 million which would make Cerb's number more accurate.

It's the Ukrainian refugees getting $49 each in lieu of American parents getting a $1,000 tax credit.

I see what you're saying

I read somewhere that the Ukraine had the foresight to destroy all rail lines between the two countries, which is important as Russian military trucks only have a 90 miles range, and are geared for transporting missiles, not food, fuel or other supplies...

Nata still posting and still feeding pigeons. The park is deserted except for her and her husband. Looks like they managed to buy some berries as well. Per reports Russian forces are regrouping outside the city. I predict they'll increase shelling soon. Russia doesn't want house-to-house urban fighting but they may not have a choice.

My Russian friend continues to post on Facebook, using a VPN.

A son living in Ukraine begs his father not to listen to Russian propaganda:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSIsrvim4ec&t=470s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSIsrvim4ec&t=470s)

I'd actually rather not know about stuff like this

https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03 (https://www.businessinsider.com/roman-abramovich-russian-oligarch-israel-holocaust-museum-ask-sanction-donor-2022-03)


"I gotta get out of these sanctions... Let me call in a favor to the Holocaust Museum"

Pretty icky.  :thumbdown:

I actually feel bad for Israel in these cases. They are between a rock and a hard place and can't really stand on principle when they probably would like to. Does anyone actually WANT to be friends with Saudi Arabia? it's unfathomable

You Americans, don't realize that Ukraine was only free 23 years without be invaded. So, calling those people who are pro-Ukraine 'Nazis' is like calling Nazi your Patriotic heroes because they want to be free for their own.

Sorry if I offend you.

 

Ain't it though?   :hatred:

 :question:  You don't offend, though lean close.  You read some dumb ass remarks from a USA politician, maybe?  The USA is a huge place compared to Europe.  I for one do not know what you are on about. 

Saudi Arabia, the UAE & other OPEC nations haven't returned biden'e calls for several weeks....
So instead of turning on the taps here in America, he's he's trying to get oil from Iran...........

Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons.

(https://thumbor.my.ua/uUPcIuSTzWqJxlWHYgue1GfaXzw=/600x/smart/filters:format(webp)/https%3A%2F%2Fs3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com%2Fmedia.my.ua%2Ffeed%2F209%2F396548c089e8db57984c5e7e8db77339.jpg)

Museum of Ukrainian Antiquities of Vasily Tarnovsky in Chernihiv

My Russian friend posts "16 DAYS OF HORROR" but refers to the war as the "special operation": I think he's being sarcastic, but it's hard to tell in translation.

There are a lot of Russians responding to him, so I guess Putin's attempt to block Facebook wasn't very successful.

Nata still posts and feeds pigeons.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275660219_5067199673300180_4170782581982951897_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eiQiVK7AS1UAX_v4wNo&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9mGczVOeAHKrP0NS-MR8ZY2ZUhEKazCyf_3-39N0WN8w&oe=6232A33B)

Optimistic, no?

My Russian friend reports that Russians are trying to leave the country en masse, presumably to escape life under sanctions.

uh oh

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-who-says-it-advised-ukraine-destroy-pathogens-health-labs-prevent-2022-03-11/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-who-says-it-advised-ukraine-destroy-pathogens-health-labs-prevent-2022-03-11/)



this happened in Iraq in 2003

Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons, even though war has come.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275692489_4674067289388334_9188185039280776846_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=QA9xyrPnYfYAX85a1-X&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT9jznFgOXGfXg-1cieWzLnFZ4zO13Q8ygHuTKfoZulRkw&oe=6234CE26)

This apartment was the home of a friend of hers---they evacuated beforehand.

Most of what she posts is in Russian or Ukrainian, but not this:

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275478785_3032486073683890_130706068003266507_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_VCAWV9MKAgAX-Ot5xA&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=00_AT_d5-Rd1duvqm4KDcU5B7LNwOhumVumS3PVpc2fMMTdPw&oe=623464D8)

 :teddyr: :teddyr: :teddyr: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Right now it's a proxy war for the 'West'.
The only thing that gives me hope is most Russians hate Russia.
And the Ukrainian people who are not budging.

whole thing is starting to feel like Iraq to me



???

 ^I should rephrase that- most Russians hate Putin.

Unfortunately, I don't think most Russians hate Putin (a significant minority does). My Russian FB friend told me he estimates about 2/3 of Russians believe the propaganda and support the war. The best consolation I could offer him was it was the same with Americans during the second Iraq war, but now almost everyone acknowledges it was a mistake.

Good article on Russia, Putin and history: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/stephen-kotkin-putin-russia-ukraine-stalin)

Nata's still posting. Some sentimental stuff about her sister, who's now a refugee.

Nata is still posting but not feeding the pigeons. Staying indoors. I doubt it's safer.

(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a3158K7_700bwp.webp)

Darn you, Rev, it hurts when I snort my coffee!

Not that the picture is funny:  too apt to be 'haha' funny.   It just took me by surpise.

What do people think will probably happen?

I think Zelensky is going through the motions of trying to get the US involved, but our hands are tied. We are a NATO member and its game over if we go in there.

I think Putin's rabid dog routine will work and Ukraine will eventually agree to not enter NATO in some sort of face saving way, like a 30 year moratorium on it.

Russia will head back home leaving some infrastructure in the pro Russia areas and western nations will fund reconstruction. It will take another month before this happens because of politics

this isn't necessarily what I would like to happen but I can see it going that way.

Quite plausible outcome, maybe even the most likely, I'd lean towards a scenario like this as well.  I think your outcome is also actually relatively optimistic, in that I think this is one of the better realistic outcomes for Ukraine.  They maintain sovereignty and don't have a new government installed and get funding to rebuild.  Ukraine might even get back the section of Donbas they lost.  I don't think Russia will give back any of Crimea though no matter what happens.   

I think lester's scenario is likely. I think Putin will annex the Donbass regions (and as much territory as he can) and declare victory, leaving Ukraine weakened but still independent. Putin will attempt to install a puppet government but it won't succeed. Ukraine will agree to not enter NATO. Pretty much everyone comes out a loser, except that there will be some deterrence for another dictator to invade a neighbor (looking at you, China).

I'm not so optimistic. I hope I'm wrong, but expect the least.  :bluesad:
For some reason I've had dreams since a child of mushroom clouds. VERY realistic. I know this is a stupid, occult type of belief, but this kind of sh!t has happened to me all my life.

The other day, I started working on a timeline of ww1 & ww2.....
While poxy support of the Sino-Japanese war complicates things just a bit, It's pretty clear in both cases that the United States was the "last" to get involved.....

I'm still hoping for the removal of Putin - either into forced retirement, a la Khrushchev, or instantaneous lead poisoning, a la Larentvia Beria.

I think lester's scenario is the best that can be hoped for.

Well, aside from Putin's summary removal.

I thought I heard on today's news that Zelensky had said Ukraine will not be joining NATO.   Then it was suggested that Russia will insist Ukraine become officially neutral like Austria and Sweden.  Which would allow Ukraine to be both independent and to maintain its own military.

Russia, Iran, China... these are ancient, huge countries. On some level it's natural for them to be powerful in their parts of the world. All have at some point flirted with freedom and open ness but ultimately that will probably be a decades if not centuries long process. Our approach of waiting for change overnight is not realistic.

RC- but that scenario is worth considering.


One thing I learned today is that these people going to Ukraine to fight are not covered by Geneva Conventions. If they are captured they will probably shot

Lavrentiy Beria was shot.   :thumbup:

That's instantaneous lead poisoning.

Nata is posting and fed the pigeons again. I was worried about them.

My Russian FB friend hasn't posted in a couple of days, no idea why.

Yes.  And so many were poisoned properly, hence my clarification.  I actually looked him up to confirm what I'd thought.  "Lead poisoning". 

Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. Russians still shelling residential areas.

Shelling maternity wards and apartment buildings.
Makes me wanna cry.

http://youtu.be/ek6Le_mWNzE (http://youtu.be/ek6Le_mWNzE)

And compared to what will come if this goes on, things haven't even STARTED to get nasty yet.

Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. She posted pictures of her neighborhood today, undamaged but the streets are all eerily empty.

Sadly I have to agree with that.

Nata's still posting, still feeding pigeons in an empty park.

all the "moderates" I follow on twitter are screaming for World War 3 while the extremists like Marjorie taylor Green and Ilhan Omar are urging caution and restraint

Nata is still posting, still feeding pigeons. Posted some pictures of empty streets, no damage near her. Reposted this from a friend:

(https://video.ilriformista.it/public/uploads/2022/03/Schermata-2022-03-21-alle-08.57.41.png)

It was a "sports complex" where the poster used to swim.

My Russian friend is against the war but seems worried that the rest of the world is trying to "cancel" Russian culture. (Which is a rare Putin talking point he agrees with.) I tried to reassure him that Americans, at least, are not against Russian people or culture, we sympathize with the Russian people and strictly blame the current situation on Putin.

[Edit: it turns out he wasn't echoing Putin, he was responding to an article by an expatriate film critic who suggested "canceling" Russian culture).

Nata, meanwhile, is staying inside (there's a curfew in Kyiv) and seems in good spirits, all things considered.

Nata still posting, still feeding pigeons. The counteroffensive seems to have temporarily taken some of the heat off.

This is inspiring-
The cellist.

http://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-23-22/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-23-22/index.html)

I've had it with people talking about WW3 and nukes. sign the peace deal or whatever already

" or whatever"
If you can figure out "whatever".  What peace deal they should sign? Where is this deal? Please, let the world know.

"If Russia yields, it will probably yield to a provisional peace. Putin does not seem capable of learning from his mistakes. Yet a provisional peace that preserves Zelensky’s government, brings about a lasting cease-fire, and does not permanently infringe on Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty, and autonomy (as Kyiv defines the terms) may be attainable. As unjust as it would be, it is preferable to all the actual alternatives." Best case scenario, probably the likeliest as well.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-23/what-if-russia-makes-deal (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-03-23/what-if-russia-makes-deal)

Nata posted some pictures of her neighborhood, deserted but no damage visible anywhere.

Nata's still feeding pigeons. The Ukrainians have driven back the Russians from the outskirts of Kyiv temporarily. They're so far back on their heels they're not even shelling the city right now.

Nata still posting and feeding pigeons. Incredibly, it seems that the Russians may be abandoning Kyiv and moving their forces to the east! She may have dodged a missile!

I hope the best for her.  :thumbup:

Putin says he's still committed to liberating everything east of the Dnieper River...

Rev - how do you know this woman? just curious

Met her on social media decades ago (before Facebook was a thing.) Then her mother, who's been dead for a few years, also contacted me and wrote a few articles for my site. We've never met in person but we've exchanged gifts through the mail, going on 20 years now. I wanted to come see her or for her to come see me but in the early days she had trouble obtaining a visa, then it became an issue of cost or convenience, then she got married.

We were both quite depressed when we began corresponding and by the time we stopped we were both recovered.

She was sure/terrified of a Russian invasion the whole twenty years.

God bless her and her family. 

"liberating"?  :question:

That's his word for it, and the media dare not misquote him.

What Putin says and does should be in the media, but I wouldn't parrot it.

Eh,
Some guys on Facebook who get their nooz from Al Jazeera instead of where everybody else is getting it tried to throw The Azov Battalion in everybody's face this morning....

Basically, Russia dropped their own insurgents, troublemakers & terrorists into Georgia, Crimea, & the Donbas region, & when the Ukraine started their own volunteer antiterrorism unit, Putin had no trouble turning it into a cute little antinazification narrative that looks good on Al Jazeera....

This is what I've looked up so far....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-azov-battalion-putin-premise-war-vs-nazis/)

^ uhhh I don't think theres any question of the Azov battalion and their political leanings.



Biden has hinted, actually outright said, that the US goal is regime change in Russia. What do they think would succeed Putin? His official successor is someone he hand picked and anyone who wins an election will be a lot like him or worse. and it certainly wouldn't be Alex Navalny, the NATO choice

^I only heard of this today, Didn't know what a political mess the Ukraine was until a week ago....^
Maybe that's why Putin thought this would be a cake walk....

^And if Biden's gonna talk the talk, he should let Poland give migs to the Ukraine.^

Biden only said what most people are thinking.
Putin is a mad dog who needs to be put down.

Not "most people" in russia, israel, China, India, Iran or any of the other countries still trading with Russia. The west isn't calling the shots anymore

They might not say it, but do you really think any of them support this disastrous war, in the name of nothing but naked conquest?
I don't think many people would grieve if Putin got hit by a bus right now.

People would be dancing in the streets. 

They just want to keep trading because they see an opportunity for war profiteering with the West temporarily withdrawing and Russia needing to find emergency new markets to buy and sell. They don't give a s**t about Putin or Russia or Ukraine, just rubles

But look at the chart midway down this article: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-24/ukraine-war-has-russia-s-putin-xi-jinping-exposing-capitalism-s-great-illusion (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-03-24/ukraine-war-has-russia-s-putin-xi-jinping-exposing-capitalism-s-great-illusion)

If Russia, China and India formed an exclusive trading block it would only be 25% of the world's GDP. Doesn't sound like a great deal. China needs US markets, they won't go too far.

If something happened to Putin, he'd be replaced by somebody just like him.

^ I don't think so. The guys an evil political dinosaur.

Remember, this has been going on since before Putin, and none of this would be going on without party approval.

 ^ What party approval?  :question: It's not a party- it's a gang.

Russia is a sinking boat. I think theirs a good chance of a Russian revolution. It's not like it hasn't happened in recent times.  There are many more citizens against Putin than are for him.

Hitler wasn't, Stalin wasn't, Horohito wasn't, Mao wasn't, Castro wasn't, Marcos wasn't, Hussein wasn't. Some may have been succeeded by bad leaders, but none were as bad as the historically bad person they replaced.

The Kims in North Korea all seem equally bad, and Roman emperors had bad stretches, though.

Doesn't seem possible Putin could be replaced by someone worse; equally bad is the worst case scenario.

or worse.

RC
he's hugely popular. people HERE don't like him, but thats not where he is!

indiana
they might not say it but you can read their minds. In the rest of the world this war is seen as Putin vs NATO not any "naked conquest"



Did we all learn nothing from Iraq? All the people in Russia really want to be just like us and want trans beauty pageants in elementary schools. And that big mean evil dictators just do stuff for no reason and their people go along with it. snap out of it!

Right on!  



And don't forget the "Five Good Emperors" ...  :smile:

Not just HERE- all over the world.

someone called "Chef Zombie' just downvoted me for going against the war fervor here


chefzombie    lester1/2jr    -    dream on, lol!


couldn't bring herself to actually debate the point in the thread (thank you, RC)

RC - here is a map of countries who have sanctions on russia


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO9HuePXwAMFMaj?format=jpg&name=large)

the whole world?

One needs merely look up history to learn that Russia has been out to reclaim it's old territories since the late 1990's...
They've been poisoning escaped KGB Agents & political opposition they don't like & rigging elections just as long....
When I was at WRIR (Started in 2006), stories about locking up people & rock groups over censorship was a popular topic....

Ever since Yeltsin, the hardline communists have been doing everything they can to get it all back.....
Unless you can wipe out an ideology held by a large enough minority of elitists, this won't end with Putin.

(https://gdb.voanews.com/01bd0000-0aff-0242-c65b-08d9fd1b1991_w776_r0.png)

Maybe they didn't enact sanctions (maybe they can't afford the economic hit), but most voted to condemn the invasion.

thats true. good point

It's just tracks in the snow...  :smile:  I know you don't care.   :thumbup: 

Poo Tin is popular (and not) in Russia, but he is despised everywhere.  That does not mean that those that hate and are hated are too proud to take money.   :thumbdown:

I don't get it. He seems to be doing a decent job of running Russia and there's no iron curtain. People are free to leave as they please and they don't practice Marxist economics.  People had the same thing with Saddam Hussein, they just had to get rid of him and what happened: a 10/10 multi trillion dollar disaster.

It should never have come to this. Why did they keep expanding NATO when they knew it would antagonize him? as always its the little people who suffer for the policy decisions of those who don't have to feel the consequences.

^ Are you insane?  :question:

because my life doesn't revolve around washington's concerns? This country is falling apart but they send 15 billion to ukraine. There were 800 homicides in Chicago in 2021 maybe we should work that out first

^ No- because you sound insane!

he discussed the reason for invading Ukraine in his initial speech, which is on the first page of this thread actually

If Putin is such a great guy- why did he attack Ukraine? Why did he try to interfere with the elections? Why does he have people who speak against him killed?
Putin's a piece of s**t.

Your praise of Putin sounds insane.

Putin does a decent job of running Russia if you don't care about his shutting down the free press, imprisoning political enemies, poisoning and otherwise murdering his political enemies, invading his neighbors, installing puppet governments in other countries, running a propaganda empire, or supporting Syria's genocidal war.  Jeez, if an American leader did those things I hope you'd be OPPOSED to him.

Surely you are trolling?

Assad is fighting Al Qaeda like we are. and fighting the extermination of Middle Eastern Christians.

"invading his neighbors" you sound like a 2003 neoconservative. again, you need to learn the lessons of Iraq. The New World Order is the problem not the alleged "bad actors"

 ^ You are insane.  :bluesad:

if the Iraq war were to happen again you guys would support it. because "everyone" hates saddam hussein

 


No he's not.  He's right. 

Possibly because at the time they joined Russia (under both Putin and Yeltsin), had asked about joining NATO. The door was opened for them to explore further, but they decided not to pursue it and because eventually those Eastern European countries were aware that if they didn't seek protection, sooner or later someone would get into power and want to get them back under Russia's banner. Either way they had no reason not to join and every reason to want to.

You ignore all the enemies Putin imprisons and murders in your praise for him as a great and honorable leader who never ever lies. I think you would make a more persuasive case if you didn't sound like a huge fan of this dictator. You could certainly make a case for non-intervention without praising him---even while condemning him. I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

Anyone, neoconservative or not, can condemn "invading his neighbors." I don't really know what your political philosophy is when invading sovereign nations is a neutral act not worthy of condemnation. Might makes right, I guess.

My lessons from Iraq are the first invasion to liberate Kuwait was justified, the second one (2003) was an unjustified disastrous mistake and had nothing to do with an invasion of a neighbor.

If a bomb falls on Nata's apartment building and kills her I'll blame Putin, not the "New World Order." She wanted Ukraine to join NATO precisely so what is happening now wouldn't happen.

here is the historical GDP of recent Russia

(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander-Lukin-2/publication/326972728/figure/fig1/AS:658348458385408@1533973912156/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank.png)


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank_fig1_326972728 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank_fig1_326972728)


Putins first term began in 2000. note the direction of the graph and this is without the other soviet states anymore.


I absolutely would. What is the significance of that?

The invasion of Iraq was wrong that doesn't mean I wanted to live in Iraq under Saddam Hussein or anyone.


Alex -
and look where we are now. was it worth it? The Earth is laid out the way it is. Russia is a huge powerful country I am certainly glad we aren't next to them but the US and NATO aren't God. The potential of Eastern European leaders being corrupt is not a good reason for the entire world to await nuclear war. I feel bad for Hong Kong that they are now having to have China take over their country. I love their capitalist ethos and amazing kung fu films which will now be censored in some fashion I'm sure, but China has 1.4 billion people and an a***ole president. This is how its going to go for a while

The significance is you say this brutal dictator has done a decent job running Russia, accept every one of his statements at face value, and cast all the blame for the conflict on the West. You probably don't realize it, but you come across like a big Putin fan, like Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump. I don't believe you really are, but I think your rhetoric is hurting your own case.

I'm quite a bit like Tucker Carlson. Is that bad? I also like Ilhan omar

Would also point out that Dmitri Medvedev was president from 2008-2012, elected largely because he kept the graph going in the right direction.

I don't accept any poltician's statement at face value. The idea that Nato expansion would antagonize Russia goes back to the very end of the cold war long before putin's terms



https://comw.org/pda/george-kennan-on-nato-expansion/

I'd say for the countries not being invaded by Russia hell yes it was worth it. I agree, Russia knows that it has a much bigger army. It also knows that NATO's forces are not big enough to threaten it in an invasion. Putin certainly wasn't worried about eastern expansion when he was considering having Russia join it himself.

Then again, as I said before, the whole eastern expansion thing is just a bulls**t excuse for him to do what he was going to do anyway. Shame you are suckered in by it.

again, the idea that NATO expansion would antagonize Russia pre dates Putin. see above

And yet he wanted to join. As did his predessor.

https://www.nato.int/nrc-website/en/about/index.html (https://www.nato.int/nrc-website/en/about/index.html) the two entities do work together quite a bit, outside of the current conflict obviously

That explains a lot   :lookingup:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html)
Good f**king lord what a brain dead move to do.

And yet Russia claims we ignore them despite that cooperation.

I reckon that would be the first city they take, being it's f**kING EMPTY!!!!  :buggedout:

Driving through one of the most radioactive areas on every without radiation protection....yeah they're good as dead.

Soviet tactical doctrine said that if it came to a war with NATO and tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons were used, they would simply march Warsaw Pact forces through the ruins and have them fight until they died of radiation poisoning.

I guess nothing has changed there then.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJplFVLQ85M#)

You would think after Chernobyl that they would redo that doctrine....but as we see with their military being towed away by tractors that they don't have the best equipment outside the AK47.

Nobody's in Chernobyl. That's why Putin choose that city as a foothold. He doesn't care if his own soldiers die.
He doesn't care who dies. That's why I'm thinking he may use a nuke. Because he's that kind of a narcissist.

I think he's willing to, but I don't think he will as long as his own position is secure since he knows it would mean the end of his ambitions for Russia, and his own life most likely.  That is, he won't use nukes to win in Ukraine, but if NATO started to invade Russia itself, certainly on the table.  Basically, I do think he's essentially rational, just surrounded by yes-men and also evil, uncaring about the deaths of innocents in the way of his goals.

I just read that seven busloads of Russian soldiers suffering from acute radiation sickness were taken to medical facilities in Belarus.
They had been ordered to dig trenches in the forest near the Chernobyl power plant.

the source for this is a facebook post. casting doubt because I'm pretty sure russians would understand about Chernobyl/ radiation

Perhaps these BOYS had no idea that they were near Chernobyl.  Perhaps they were afraid to disobey orders.  Perhaps it was just stupid army intelligence (dig trenches).  Duh. 
People no longer need the TV news to know what's happening in the world, but they do need discernment. 
I do believe RC is correct that BED PAN er, POO TIN does not care who dies.   

They took the city a month ago, genius.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/25/1083210202/russia-chernobyl-ukraine (https://www.npr.org/2022/02/25/1083210202/russia-chernobyl-ukraine)

Russia have , for strategic purposes, pulled out of chernobyl, so the obvious conspiracy theory is they are leaving because they have developed cancer. Why would they dig trenches if there were no pp?

^ They pulled out of Chernobyl, Wile E., because nothings  there.

Supposedly they pulled out after getting some nuclear material to make a dirty bomb.

Some brilliance from Twitter:

Andrej
@AndrejNkv
I am the very model of a Russian Major General
My standing in the battlefield is growing quite untenable
My forces, though equipped and given orders unequivocal
Did not expect the fight to be remotely this reciprocal

I used to have a tank brigade but now I have lost several
My fresh assaults are faltering with battleplans extemporal
I can't recover vehicles but farmers in a tractor can
It's all becoming rather reminiscent of Afghanistan

My ordnance is the best but only half my missiles make it there
I would have thought by now that we would be controllers of the air
But at the rate the snipers work my time here is ephemeral
I am the very model of a Russian Major General

The only non-paywall article I can find about Russian soldiers suffering radiation sickness after digging trenches in Chernobyl is skeptical.

https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714 (https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-russia-troops-ukraine-yemelianenko-nuclear-1693714)

I'm a complete layman, but this doesn't match my understanding of radiation in Chernobyl, either. You're exposed to high levels of background radiation and you develop cancer years later, you don't get sick immediately.

In good news, it looks like Putin appears to have temporarily abandoned his plans to take Kyiv. My uneducated guess is he'll focus on securing the East and some land connection to Crimea and then declare victory to save face. But capturing Mariupol will be brutal. 10,000 civilian deaths and the city mostly reduced to rubble isn't impossible to imagine.

Wow: such true words from a soldier on the front line instead of a General sending brave soldiers ahead of himself.

I am on Twitter as well: @ZombieT14.

Orphan sources can speed up radiation sickness, see Goiâna Incident, Tammiku Caesium incident,  Lia Radiological Accident, so it is possible that the troops did get nuclear material and were transporting it without it being covered/sealed.

Nata posts more pictures of the streets of Kiev, and it looks like more people are out and about. Before the streets were always totally deserted. There is a lot of graffiti, I don't know if it was there before but I'm guessing since she took pictures of it it's new, probably anti-Russian stuff. The mood seems optimistic.

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/277663556_10159326196299091_8523068912204304896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=qs2SXGaUZoMAX-LFGaL&tn=eoYOeHuy1nZBQ0xA&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=00_AT-X-Kw6Xkh0k0NV9iCWuk-yC_BuNjVlB65u_fhX_sMgtQ&oe=624CDD20)

Meanwhile fighting continues on the outskirts of town. "The risk of dying (in Kyiv) is pretty high, and that's why my advice to anyone who wants to come back is: Please, take a little bit more time," Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko said, issuing a warning to residents who have fled the capital. (https://news.yahoo.com/kyiv-mayor-says-big-battles-122029214.html)

misfit - Russia has tons of conventional weapons. They have no reason to make or use a dirty bomb

Nata still doing well. Posted pictures of the Bucha massacres. Too grotesque for me to repost, nothing you can't find with a Google search.

I am a little worried about my Russian friend because he posted saying that Russia was responsible for the killings in Bucha. This is illegal under Putin's regime. He had been careful not to call it a war previously (which is also illegal).

This guy posted a YouTube video from inside Kiev.

https://youtu.be/DqIF2U4g7H8

Special operation is hell.

Rather surprised by this, but our generally useless leader actually visited Ukraine in person. It would give me some respect for him if he hadn't done so much other stupid s**t.

Anyway:

https://twitter.com/defencehq

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPqxXSOXsAUuqck?format=jpg&name=900x900)

this is the unit that did the Bucha massacre

the guy second from the left looks kind of like Putin even though they are more overtly Asian in appearance


the Commander of the unit

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPcj1kGWQAgH5gX?format=jpg&name=medium)

Rev, how is your friend doing now? Hoping things have calmed down in Kyiv with the Russian withdrawal and redeployment.

Sadly (but not unexpectedly), I've been told that for reasons directly connected to my job I can't host a Ukrainian refugee, but we are still doing what we can to help out, sending over medical supplies and whatnot.

Since the Russians withdrew and they stopped bombing nightly, things appear to have returned to more of a normal routine. People are getting out more and socializing. Of course, every now and then they lob a few missiles her way.  :bluesad:

One of our idiotic politicians here has now decided to go to the Ukraine on a "fact finding mission" 😳🤧💩😝

and the 2022 Darwin Award goes to ...

I didn't read the article, but I saw something about Angelina Jolie visiting and being caught up in an air raid.

I think the word is "gek"?  (Is "bossies" offensive?)

 :teddyr: :teddyr:

Gek is right: it means mad or crazy, while bossies [bushies] dates back to the war in Angola: many veterans of that war suffer the bush curse which is akin to PTSD.

For context, this is the idiot politician:

https://ewn.co.za/2022/05/02/what-are-you-doing-there-safricans-question-why-steenhuisen-visiting-ukraine (https://ewn.co.za/2022/05/02/what-are-you-doing-there-safricans-question-why-steenhuisen-visiting-ukraine)

My favourite moment is about the 47 seconds mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tsyBj-lMj8)

Y'mean the little dancing poo tin?  Hilarious.

interesting perspective from Dutch passenger today. He ultimately blamed Putin for the war, but pointed out that NATO really has nothing to gain by having Ukraine as a member. European take on them is mostly that they are incredibly corrupt.

He was very critical of biden, Macron, and other leaders who couldn't stop the clearly avoidable conflict  "this is what we pay them for" are they really world LEADERS if they can't rise to the occasion on such... occasions?

I agree with them being corrupt, but if your passenger can't see the value in having a country that is kicking Russia's arse in an alliance that was set up to basically defend against that same country, then there really is no hope for him.

I don't buy your passenger's premise that the conflict was "clearly avoidable."

I don't know about that


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-evacuate-mariupol-ceding-control-russia-2022-05-17/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-troops-evacuate-mariupol-ceding-control-russia-2022-05-17/)

We're also running out of those javelin missiles, as well as stinger missiles.....
Lockheed Martin says it will take at least two years to resupply the number of javelins that have been used in Ukraine, and the stingers they've been using haven't been made in over a decade & the components are no longer available....

PMSL, did you actually read that article before posting it?

With lines like
(Just so you know, capturing 250 troops, is not really a big deal in this size of a war).


A few thousand defenders held up 5 full combat units for how long? Surrounded with no fresh supplies, no hope of reinforcement, defending a steelworks and holding up 5 full Russian combat units, tying up manpower the Russians badly need elsewhere. If you want to know what kind of effect a defeat like that can have, well I'll assume you are familiar with the story of the Alamo. I am willing to bet that the defenders of that plant will become legends in their country for holding out for so long against those odds.

Thanks for posting an article that backs me up on the Ukrainians kicking Russia's arse though. Not that I needed it, but thanks anyway.

In more good news for Ukrainian forces, they have pushed Russian forces outside of their country and reached the Russian border. This war has a long way to go and everything could still all change. Even if Ukrainian forces still keep winning, they will still experience setbacks like Mariupol but it is nice to see the good guys winning at the moment.

Whereas Ukrainian forces are having many victories. Ergo, they are kicking Russia's arse.

thats true ukraine won the Eurovision song contest

Yup, just one of many ways and places they are winning in. Not to be unexpected when you are fighting a regime as corrupt as Russia though.

Oh gods, my sides are hurting so much from laughing at Russia being able to take a single building complex being viewed as a victory. If they keep winning like that they will be lucky to hold onto the Crimea never mind making progress. That is the kind of performance I'd love to see in any nation I go to war against.

"russia wins"

anti russia guy "this is good. no its great. aahh yes yes!!!!!"

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pyrrhicvictory.asp (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pyrrhicvictory.asp)

Russias 'victories':

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2022/putins-war-efforts-stalling-as-russian-forces-run-out-of-combat-ready-reserves (https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2022/putins-war-efforts-stalling-as-russian-forces-run-out-of-combat-ready-reserves)

For some context, Russia was believed to have approx 2700 MBTs tanks at the start of the conflict. Many of its components for its military were manufactured in Ukraine, so funnily enough, they are having a hard time replacing their losses in several vital areas of military supplies.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-military-equipment-losses/31847839.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-military-equipment-losses/31847839.html)

Yeah, if they keep winning that way, sooner or later they are going to run out of troops and equipment. It is a very basic military concept. You win wars by depleting the enemies' ability to fight, faster than they can deplete yours. If you want to take part in a debate about this, you really should learn something about how wars are fought and won and why what you call a victory will leave the Russian army depleted and exhausted (even more so than it currently is), if that is how they keep winning. But hey, you go ahead trying to trumpet what is a minor Russian victory into something major. "Oh no, the Russians took a factory. Whelp, I guess we better surrender, never mind that we are pushing them back on several fronts and have chased Russian units back into their own country and could even cross into Russian territory for a counter-invasion if we wanted."

Isn't everyone here an anti-Russia guy? I thought you only didn't want us involved in the conflict in any way, not that you were actively rooting for Russia.

So your a 'pro-russia' guy? Figures. Seems like folks with your mind set hate commies- but love Putin!
Who most certainly wants to bring back the USSR.
You cherry pick news to fit your belief system. What that system is- who knows.

Doesn't everyone here agree with me?

Isn't that the correct opinion?

No.
Now you're just trolling.

I hate to point out the obvious, but if everyone agreed with you, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Also, I'd say I am more anti-putin personally than anti-Russian. It's a place I'd love to visit someday, although I don't see it happening any time soon.

I was mimicking Rev Powell sorry that wasn't more clear

okay well some people view this as a good vs evil thing and others, me, view it as an avoidable conflict brought on by western arrogance. Thats basically it


rc -
your side loves communism but hates Putin whats up with that?

I'd love to agree with you Lester. 

What opinion are you inquiring about?   

who even knows at this point

I'm not kidding.  I'm not following this thread, though I looked back a page.   :question:

My side? What side would that be?
Do you even know what 'communism' is?

Turns out the fight there is still ongoing at the steelworks, so reports of a rare victory are, as yet a bit premature. Their command has issued an order for them to surrender though. 10 weeks under siege and counting.

Other reports suggest that Ukrainian forces may be taking limited scale strikes across the border at high-value military targets, including a helicopter attack and sabotage teams. I hope more Russian civilians don't end up paying the price for putin's arrogance.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)

"The National Guard of Ukraine has shared a video on its Twitter account that appears to show Azov fighters greasing bullets with pig fat, ostensibly to be used against against Muslim Chechens deployed to their country as Russia steps up its military assault on Ukraine."


pig fat and bullets paid for by you and me (if you're American)

Meanwhile a one-year-old reported to have been raped by Russian soldiers has died.

https://www.businessinsider.com/1-year-old-died-rape-russian-soldiers-ukraine-ombudsman-said-2022-5?r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com/1-year-old-died-rape-russian-soldiers-ukraine-ombudsman-said-2022-5?r=US&IR=T)

A Russian soldier being prosecuted for war crimes has confessed and begged for forgiveness from his victim's widow. This is the first war crime trial of the war.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61496428 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61496428)

There's a lot of Chechens on the Ukraine side too.  Wonder how they feel about it.

But yeah, the Azov guys are, to put it mildly, lousy people, but I can't blame Ukraine for continuing to field them any more than I could Finland allying with the Nazis back in the day.  You take whoever you can get when Russia invades.

Indeed, and Russias invasion will make heroes out of them increasing their appeal. Putin's 'anti-nazification' is more likely to make things worse than better.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTL7I3UXsAUb4gv?format=png&name=small)

all of the countries on this chart have more skin in the game than we do. the Eu's economy is bigger than ours whats going on here?

Our economy and military dwarfs all those countries. Look at it by percentage of GDP instead:

(http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/27331.jpeg)

Also, European countries are absorbing a greater blow from boycotts of Russian products. Still, it's true France and Germany, especially, should be doing more.

Its a new kind of "proxy war" when one entity is furnishing  basically the entire military of one side of a conflict.

I can't help but think if our input was the same as these other entities we would have reached some sort of conclusion by now, a negotiated peace


Alex - "Insider could find no independent evidence for the claim." their source is the Ukrainian government which has no aversion to spinning tales. Obviously it is a very clear war crime if true. in wars there are atrocities but also atrocity propaganda

I'd also point out that the video you posted was not verified either.

the video was posted and commented on back in February https://twitter.com/nwarikoo/status/1498030734740803584 is also in the article

The article also states that the video had not been verified.

to my point!

“The military aid the west is providing to Ukraine is changing the dynamic and if Russia doesn’t find a way to address this meaningfully… the conflict will never end.”


scott ritter was a UN Weapons inspector who came out against the Iraq war. He is also, regrettably, known for his habit of soliciting teenage girls online for video sex stuff, for which he has been arrested I believe multiple times. He's also a former marine and kind of knows what he's talking about.

https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/scott-ritters-switcheroo-why-i-radically-changed-my-overall-assessment/ (https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/scott-ritters-switcheroo-why-i-radically-changed-my-overall-assessment/)

Ritter was riding high on the contrarian side till facts on the ground changed: the billions of dollars in weapons the US is sending to Ukraine is having a profound effect.


"Unless Russia is willing to jump across the Dnieper River and head into western Ukraine ... then demilitarization of Ukraine is not going to take place"

As I feared the sensation of this war is dwindling in people's minds and it's on the news less and less as fresh "stories" come along. Even in here no one has added a post to this thread in over a week.

Well, don't forget Ukrainians are still suffering an invasion of their cities and homes, and still need help. If you can donate anything to refugee relief, it's needed.

It became less urgent to me personally when Putin gave up on Kiev, but yeah, there is a predictable degree of fatigue. The news doesn't change much, or changes very slowly.

Have you heard from your friend lately, Rev?

Not directly but I check her FB page every now and then, and things seem to have returned to near-normal in Kiev: people are trying to go about their ordinary lives. Yesterday she posted video of a psychedelic jam band a friend of hers is in playing a concert in a courtyard for about 4 people.

She also reposts lots of material from other Ukrainians. She posted one of a resident walking through the streets of Bucha back in February. Eerie, almost the entire town was a field of rubble as far as the eye could see, a few houses still standing, fires still burning, some abandoned tanks in the streets. Surreal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/13/climate/russia-oil-gas-record-revenue.html)

Russia’s Oil Revenue Soars Despite Sanctions, Study Finds

Rising oil prices more than offset a decline in export volumes during the first 100 days of the assault on Ukraine.


so much for that



our sanctions are raising the price of oil, which is helping russia.

https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1619499/putin-russia-will-respond-if-nato-sets-up-infrastructure-in-finland-sweden



turkey lifted its veto after finland and sweden agreed to sell them planes or something

It's from last week, but I understand this is what Putin's down to...

https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/obese-retired-russian-general-called-to-fight-in-ukraine-report/

fat general story is fake

https://twitter.com/ArbiterOfTweets/status/1545651614253555712
 
turns out its from a celebration of border guards.

"It turns out to be a local ceremony celebrating "Border Guard Day", a holiday for (former) border guards in Russia.

On Yelansky district's official Telegram, we even find a picture of 'Pavel' at the microphone stand giving a military salute...

Our '67-year old general Pavel' turns out to be the 58-year old Ivan Ivanovich Turchin, veteran of both the Russian military and the Border Guard.

He retired in 2011, after 20 years of service at the border in Uzbekistan."

^wondered about that after googling the name, but I assumed the pictures were old...^

Yes Pavel is I guess a first name? I don't know much about Russia

If Putin is calling on retired border guards to serve as battle commanders he really is in deep trouble

Been a while with so much going on, but the Pavel I could find at the time was a veteran of Afghanistan & went on to be some sort of diplomat....
He didn't look quite like that, but I'd figured retirement had it's effect in him...

Sad how people's interest in something fades so fast. The woman at a megachurch near me who handles donations for Ukrainian refugees says she has not had anything from the outside come in specifically earmarked for Ukraine in three weeks now. The church is still sending money itself from its funds, but I suppose no one is thinking about Ukraine anymore enough to donate. Heck, even this thread has gone mostly dormant and sunk to the bottom of the page, and it only takes an outraged thought to bump it forward.

We are still making donations locally. Just earlier on this week, we took in stuff for roughly 70 Ukrainian refugees that are being housed locally. I've been following the course of the war closely, but not posting much on the thread because I am trying to not accidentally say more than I am allowed to about what is happening out there.

What can any of us say?  We are watching.  Some pray.

Adding a few bucks to the prayers might really hit the spot.

In my case, adding a few prayers. 
I wish I had all the bucks in the world and could donate more.  That is an excuse.  I don't like excuses.   :bluesad:

I've been hearing that humanitarian aid hasn't been reaching people on the front lines....
Ukrainian soldiers have been destroying it so the Russians won't get it....

Not really any good sides here, kinda like Ethiopia in the eighties, or Somalia in the nineties, or Syria.....

Corruption plagues already challenged times, so I am sure a lot of aid is being stolen. I know one of the main groups I have given money runs its own facility just inside Poland, and it's made the operation more efficient than if it was in Ukraine. Hopefully a portion of the money that's been spent has reached at least some people. War is a terrible disruption to life, as well as being many other even worse things.

I would argue that the side which invaded a peaceful neighbor for the sole purpose of stealing its territory is the BAD side.

True, I was simply trying to point out that in the midst of a war, the Ukraine army has still found time to commit atrocities against their own people.

this thing is never going to end. both sides look at it as existential to win

speculation (on the russian side) is that the assassin of Alexander Dugin's daughter is a female member of the Azov Battalion. Azov denies this

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FayMXCSUUAIryCa?format=png&name=900x900)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FayLmEYUUAEKO-_?format=png&name=900x900)

I'd be surprised if a car used in such a job was then put up for sale. Seems rather amateurish not to destroy it.

I've seen cruder blunders though by some intelligence services though.

The younger Dugin had singled out the Azov battalion as being "sub human" for attacking civilians so there was some tension there.

https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1561723171086254081 this is video "evidence" (maybe or maybe not) of at least her presence in the area

Are they (the Russians) claiming the target of the assassination was the daughter rather than her father? Not being at home and with other stuff going on, I've not been following the news as closely as normal this week, but the articles I had seen suggested it had been the parent the assassins were after and it went wrong when father and daughter switched cars at the last minute.

Yes I forgot that

Family secretly film life in Russian-occupied Ukraine (Kherson)

https://youtu.be/QSaxduOxogU

One issue I have is why isn't Israel selling it's anti-missile tech,  ''iron dome'', to Ukraine?

Also Iranian forces are reportedly to be operating in Ukraine. Maybe Ukraine needs to send a missile into an Iranian oilfield.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/russia-warns-israel-against-sending-weapons-to-ukraine

A few months back I posted a link to Natasha's Adventures, the YouTube channel of a young woman who lives in the far east of Russia. I first came across her channel several years ago in better times in her country and was charmed by her.

Well, I just thought I'd note that Natasha's most recent video was a month ago and was her briefly telling the world she was going off to join a large anti-Putin rally planned in the city, and that she fully expected to be sent to prison. In fact she spoke of being harassed and followed by the police for some time.

As I mentioned that was a month ago, she has added no new content to her channel since, and clearly this is worrisome.

There are many courageous people in Russia who oppose Putin and his war, and I hope they see better times as a result of their brave stance.

And wherever she is, I hope Natasha is all right.

Here's a quick geography lesson. This is the Russian Federation. Only the gray areas are Russia, the rest are all ethnic countries under Russian control.
(https://external-preview.redd.it/TL30M-p8d5lIhsfvVyNiBeqxbzYX16xH1uOSnVcEwM4.png?auto=webp&s=3c94079e352406244994fbf98c0971933a0d2211)

My Russian Facebook friend says half his family has left the country and he's planning on leaving, too. He writes "I hide 95% of my thoughts."

Here's more bad news for bearland...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t-pdZSv7G10&t=518s

Russia has a real shortage of healthy young people, and putin is basically throwing away tens of thousands of them in this war.


Honest to ghawd, I think Putin may end up having to make  child birth mandatory in Russia. Maybe a lot of people don't remember how that worked for for Czecholslovakia under Nicolae Ceaușescu,  but it created a hell on earth for hundreds of thousands of children and lead to the a violent revolution and execution of the (fatherless boy) who instigated it.

Personally I'm OK with the thought of Putin stretching a rope,  doing the spandau ballet,  twisting in the wind,  etc.

Yeah it's a mess sven things like that happen.
PS: Romania.

There's an armed movement for independence in Bashkortostan.....

They need to end this thing now before a nuclear war breaks out.

Not going to happen while that condition exists.

The scary thing is that Russia has no good place to go, so it really has nothing to lose by going big, in war terms.

Their population is heading for a crisis, their only major economic leg is gas exports and now Europe wants to find alternative energy sources, they've become a global pariah and have reneged on so much debt they have no real direction to turn to...  There's no light at the end of russia's tunnell. They might feel like crashing the whole world with them. They have fairly little to lose.

Maybe the world ends up paying them what amounts to extortion money because punping a couple trillion into Russia a year is cheaper than them pulling the ultimate ''crazy ivan''. Maybe Russia ends up become a laboratory experiment is rebuilding a failed state that's too big and dangerous to let collapse. Russia becomes a massive experiment in creating a whole new society. Could be fascinating or at least interesting, as in 'interesting times'.

^I dunno...^
Russia has been selling their natural gas & oil to China, & buying those Kamikaze drones from Iran....

Ukraine wants to buy weapons from Israel, but allies & enemies on both sides have warned against this....

Meanwhile, nearly five thousand US troops have been stationed near the Ukraine border....

^ indeed. Remember when Biden said we weren't going to get involved? We're arming Ukraine to the teeth and paying their governments salaries.

Did someone mention "democracy"? How about we let the regions loyal to Russia be a part of it and put this whole thing to bed.

I'm not the world's biggest Obama fan, but in retrospect I'm glad he beat mcCain or all this stuff would probably have happened in 2009. the pentagon knows they have a sucker on the line now

Eventually we're going to have it out on this one again. maybe not tonight but ...at some point.  

From Jeffrey Sachs:

https://twitter.com/steve_hanke/status/1585475624537235456

This sounds like 'gjve Putin what he wants'.  I remember history class, we tried that with Hitler, turned out he wanted everything.

you sound more like Morpheus the woke. not every conflict is world war 2. Every foreign policy mind in the last century warned against NATO expansion for the exact reason of what is unfolding now.

NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. Non-aggressors have nothing to fear.

It's actually the opposite. That is, the U.S. is the biggest warmonger in the world, with over 800 military bases and installations worldwide and a military budget that's bigger than those of the others combined. It has been using that military to engage in mayhem in many countries for more than fifty years, with coups, assassinations, various forms of destabilization, and outright invasion.

What's ironic is that its most liberal former President actually said that:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

Why is it engaged in warmongering? Here's the reason, explaining Carter's point, and moving on to Sachs:

The U.S. dollar is the global reserve currency. That means most countries need it for trade. It also makes the U.S. incredibly powerful because it can buy things cheap from others but also weak because it makes its own exports expensive for most. This also explains why U.S. borrowing and spending have been soaring since 1982.

At the same time, the U.S. had been fighting to counter the rise of Communism, and that meant propping up dictatorships (like those in Chile and in Iran) and toppling others (like those in Iraq and various South American countries). It also used the same regimes to access natural resources cheap, especially oil.

Part of such strategies involve the military industrial complex, which Sachs talks about. It's an alliance of the government and industry involving development and profiting from armament production and deployment. The U.S. military gets its hardware and the defense industry gets its profits. This is also why the U.S. is the biggest arms dealer in the world.

The problem is that more countries have been growing stronger because they had been saving and exporting, starting with European countries, then Japan, then various Asian countries, and now BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) plus over forty emerging markets, from Turkey to the Philippines. According to Wall Street banks, BRICS and these emerging markets will dominate the world economy during the next few days.

With that, more are using their own currencies for trade, starting their own economic blocs, engaging in bilateral trade, bartering, and even considering special drawing rights from multilateral banks. In relation to this topic, countries like Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore have refused to follow the U.S. and continue to trade with Russia, and recently Saudi Arabia has said the same. Some, like the Philippines, remain scared of the U.S., which is why it recently cancelled a helicopter deal with Russia and lost millions of dollars in downpayments. Meanwhile, not only Russia but China continue to be maintain friendly relations with the Philippines, offering cheap oil and development aid.

This is inevitable but unacceptable for the U.S., as less use of the dollar will no longer allow it to borrow and thus spend more to keep its economy afloat. With that, the U.S. economy will fall apart.

That's why Ukraine was a linchpin, together with others, and the U.S. and its allies had to keep it weak. This explains why "color revolutions" occurred in 2004 onward not only in Ukraine but even in places like Thailand and Hong Kong: protesters and social media influencers were backed by NGOs which in turn wer funded by organizations like the CIA. They were meant to destabilize such countries and thus allow them to be manipulated by the U.S.

Such is the case for Ukraine: as part of and co-founder of the former Soviet Union it actually had one of the most powerful economies among the soviets. But after 1991, it began to de-industrialize as NATO and the EU encouraged it to move away from Russia as a trading partner, and its officials began to meet with Biden, Kerry, and others over deals in oil and gas. Today, it has a per capita GDP that's only slightly higher than that of the Philippines.

One of the organizations that was involved in mayhem in Afghanistan and even Syria was NATO.

The de facto head of NATO is the U.S., which is the main warmonger of the world. Here's an interesting point about that and Ukraine from 2014, years before Russia invaded:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/11/beware-the-worlds-leading-war-monger-and-terrorist-organization/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/11/beware-the-worlds-leading-war-monger-and-terrorist-organization/)


Apparently, what Russia is doing to Ukraine Ukraine was doing to Russians in the eastern part of the country for years, and backed by the U.S. Many have forgotten this and many of the other U.S.-backed atrocities mentioned in the article.

This is not to say that people should support the Russian invasion, but they should look at the reasons for and what happened before it. Apparently, we're looking at what appears to be more than just "crazy SOBs."

Putin couldn't have said it better.

I have mixed feelings on Russia fearing America/NATO.

NATO cannot be pureky defensive, there is no such thing as a purely defensive force. I owned a. 410 revolver for home defense as it was short ranged and unlikely to harm anyone in a neighboring house jf I fired at a home invader and missed, but it could still have been used aggressively. So to could nato be used aggressively.

We must remember that president Reagan launched a series of aggressive moves against Russia, includibg having a major Russian oil pipeline sabotaged abd heavily damaged,  harassing Russian submarines abd various economic measures orchestrated against Russia that helped lead to it's collapse, putin remembers those things quite well.

Also America invaded, devastated and conquered Iraq to steal it's oil,  there never was a hint of evidence Iraq was involved with 9 11.

But America is unlikely to start trouble with a desparate nation that has a large nuclear arsenal,  even an aging, decrepit and poorly maintained one.

It must be remembered that nato did not solicit new member states close to Russia, those states solicited nato for admission and one can see why after Putin's seizure of Crimea.

So let's not have a fkame war here over this. There's enough war in the world as is,  yes?

Everyone knew if NATO made motions to go into Ukraine that this would happen. They forced his hand. TbWhy does everyone pretend this whole aspect of the war isn't there? Its Creepy
                                                                                               
Even people in World War II could admit that Hitler had some rational interests.  O t hers not obviously

Putin is following Hitler's playbook nearly verbatim,  his conquest of Crimea in 2014, his attack on Ukraine abd his claims that both acts were justified by historical proximity abd 'persecution' of ethnic groups are cut and pasted from Hitler's actions.

I believe there is enough similarity between Hitler and Putin to justify a comparison.

Also nato did not actively solicit new states on Russia's perceived frontier, those states solicited nato after Putin's invasion and conquest of crimea.  Putin has himself to blame for that.

What motions did NATO make to move into Ukraine? Every time Ukraine asked to join the answer they got was that they weren't ready to join.

You raise a good point. Why hasn't Ukraine been allowed into NATO even now? What is the reasoning behind that? Was Ukraine late with their paperwork?

No it was because we didn't want to provoke Russia.  all of a sudden we have chosen to do so. why?

Some typos in there sorry I'm on my Antiquated cell phone


 I don't care if you compare anyone to anyone I just don't get the hitler putin one.   It's also corny

If this refers to what I shared, then FWIW my sources for what happened in Afghanistan, Syria, and even Iraq include the CNN, BBC, the NYT, and others.

For example, here's a timeline of what happened to democracy in Iraq in the 1950s from the NYT:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-coup-timeline.html (https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-coup-timeline.html)

Apparently, U.S. neoliberals are caught between supporting the U.S. government over other countries while realizing that what they support is no different from what they don't.

Same here. Hobsbawm pointed out that the Cold War was as bloody as the previous world wars, with an estimated 40 million dead worldwide, mostly unarmed civilians from poor countries, and many children and the elderly, as their regions were used as proxy wars by military powers.

It's notable that you mentioned Reagan, because it was the same President who pushed the two ideologies that turned the U.S. into a major military machine: neoconservatism and neoliberalism.

Neoconservatism refers to the belief that "freedom and democracy" must reign, that the U.S. is the sole arbiter and enforcer of that, and that it is exceptional in the sense that whatever it does cannot be considered wrong because it is acting towards that belief.

Hence, Reagan's view of the "evil empire," Bush's view of the "axis of evil," and all the way to Obama's pivot to Asia. Presidents from Reagan onward created the view that the world is divided into good and evil: the U.S. and its friends are good, and everyone else is evil. And those who disagree must be dealt with. As Bush would put it, either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

Neoliberalism refers to the belief that free markets must reign, and that the U.S. must force other countries to be free. That means opening up their countries to trade and more commerce. The belief was eventually used to open up the same countries for exploitation, especially of resources like oil. In addition, in turns out that free markets eventually become the opposite, as those who become richer thanks to it eventually take over the same markets.

This explains Sachs' military industrial complex, which was ironically first raised by Eisenhower back in the 1950s. As some become richer, then they take over, controlling most of the economy and influencing elections. With that, regardless of political party elected officials work for and with them in exchange for credit. That credit, in turn, is used to support a military industrial complex used to bully other countries into submission, which in turn gives economic advantages to the same rich.

This explains what happened in Iraq, and why the U.S. quickly took control of Basra, and used oil from it to supply Israel. It also explains the color revolutions in Ukraine, collusion between pro-U.S. Ukraine officials and U.S. counterparts, etc.

During the early weeks of the invasion, I recall one news outlet interviewing a former U.S. military general about it. He said that if that were the U.S., then the war would have ended on Day One as the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. There is precedence to that given what the U.S. did in Iraq during the first war, and what it did in Afghanistan during its prolonged war. Things like cluster bombs, Hellfires, and MOAB "daisy cutters" were used, i.e., lethal non-nuclear arsenal that killed large numbers of Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

What's ironic about that is that Hitler would have said the same, and that many viewers would not have realized the same.

The problem in this case is that Russia has long-range bombers, missiles, etc., and would have done the same. And yet it didn't. Instead, it occupied the areas where Russians dominate.

So, why is Putin not going "U.S." on Russia or mentioning it only now? Some believe that he fears that if he does, then the U.S. will find reasons to follow through, that even countries like China and those who refuse to follow the U.S., like Saudi Arabia, Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore, will move away from it.

Thus, it's stuck with occupying only part of the Ukraine, i.e., mostly in places where Russians are, and not moving forward. It's also probably betting that more U.S. allies will fold and end up buying oil and gas from it, especially given the recent news about Saudi Arabia refusing to follow the U.S.

ISIS are/were more like modern day nazis. Putin is an outmoded post totalitarian leader of a pretty boring seeming country

Well this is actually a nice conversation.

Wonder how Russia's army became a paper bear?  Here are a few videos on the matter.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6yA7Ge0EmY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kAp9lPRbmoc&t=94s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejjKbpXn1S0&t=631s

 Russia's main issue has aways centered on corruption, even under the Soviet union corruption was endemic to levels the American military wohkd never have accepted.

 In one really spectacular case rampant corruption, incompetence and 2 rolls of blank newspaper created a situation that could have triggered WW3.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1f47SC_A8&t=67s

 A different Soviet leader may have jumped to the conclusion the west caused this situation and decided to attack first.  Thankfully that did not happen.

I don't think their army has become a paper bear. There seems to be a ton of casualties on both sides?

Indeed. Check out some of Adam Curtis' documentaries. They talk about not only the background of ISIS but even of groups like Al Qaeda and what led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Links to the U.S. are notable.

As implied by Sachs and others, the main reason why many military powers look good on paper is because they can't outspend the U.S. That is, the U.S. military budget is larger than those of other military powers combined. The country can do that because the dollar is used as a reserve currency globally, which means more people worldwide need dollars for trade.

With that, the U.S. creates large amounts of dollars as part of debt, and then uses it to spend heavily on the military, etc.

The catch is that that ponzi scheme can only be maintained as long as more people worldwide remain reliant on the dollar. To do that, the U.S. has to use the same military plus onerous foreign policies to keep other countries weak, and thus dependent on rich ones.

Such is the case for Ukraine, which has a per capita GDP that's barely above that of countries like the Philippines and Vietnam. The irony is that more than two decades ago Ukraine was one of the richest republics of the former Soviet Union, with significant levels of manufacturing plus earnings from natural resources. Across the same decades it started de-industrializing, relying on more trade with the EU as it was persuaded to move away from its Russian trading partner, and on services.

I also recall some more points raised by Curtis, and they may even be seen in his latest documentary on Russia. That is, when Communism fell apart because it was unable to keep up with U.S. neoliberalism, oligarchs took over and tried to use politicians like Putin as puppets. After that, Putin reversed things and took over himself.

What most don't know is that similar has probably been in place in countries like the U.S. One expert interviewed by Pilger for the documentary "The Coming War on China" pointed out, for example, that the difference between China and the U.S. is this: China is ruled by the Communist Party. The U.S. is ruled by Wall Street.

This is an older document, but it does explain why Ukraine's economy is the way it is, without going into too much depth.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/03/09/underachiever-ukraine-s-economy-since-1991-pub-47451

Be warned though, it is fairly long.

One thing to remember is Ukraine produces a lot of food sold to Europe, maybe pooty decided to wanted to hold european food supplies as well as oil and gas supplies by the throat.

 Also tens of thousands of Ukrainian people have been,  it's reported,  basically kidnapped into Russia. I wonder why it's being done and why it isn't being talked about much?

The forced repatriation has been mentioned on the news here as it is a war crime.

What Ukraine should have done was follow what Asian countries did, which is to promote nationalist economics. But it was dominated by oligarchs that took advantage of the populace and foreign partners who thought the same.

Interestingly enough, the article implicitly reveals how the West was manipulating Ukraine. That is, the former was never interested in making the latter an economic partner, and was more interested in encouraging it to open up its economy to foreign investments, privatize, drop price controls, and select political leaders amenable to all three views.

That's because all these are part of neoliberalism, which with manipulation of media and co-opting of Ukraine politicians (as seen in the Color Revolutions) allows the U.S. to control weaker countries. When that's no longer possible (which is happening because neoliberal policies are falling apart in many countries), then they employ neoconservatism, which involves a range of intervention, from covert activities to invasion.)

I suspect Putin realized this, which is why he attacked but stopped only with the regions dominated by Russians. He also did not follow the U.S. strategy of using WMDs to bomb countries back to the stone age, and thus end wars quickly.

I won't be surprised to find out that he knew that all along. In addition, I get this feeling that the EU wanted Ukraine to remain weak, in order to access such resources cheap. Meanwhile, U.S. officials could visit, meeting with Ukraine officials who favored the U.S. while others struck deals with Ukraine oligarchs to gain access to the same resources.

He stopped with the regions dominated by Russian speaking people because his troops are getting their arses kicked. If he could have, he'd have taken the whole thing, but a combination of under prepared troops, too few numbers of men used (standard protocol says he should have used a force three times as large as he did in the initial invasion. You attack with a force three times the size of the defending army, not one more or less equal in size). The only way his invasion plan makes any sense to me is if they'd expected the Ukrainians to not fight back at all, either collapsing early on in the attack or even welcoming the invaders in.

The leader of Russia is not the man today that he was in the past, not only owing to personal factors such as the infirmities brought on by age, but because he has ruled by terror within his own government for so long that there are few voices near him speaking either an opposing viewpoint or an unpopular one, which has led to Putin making decisions from a place that hasn't aligned with reality. Yes-men confirming his personal biases created expectations which reality did not support. In short the way Russia's war has unfolded has been contrary to Putin's expectations. For years the Kremlin has been a place out of step with actual reality, and now the world sees it.

can't believe there is still an appetite for trying to bring "democracy" to russia or something. Our country is 30 trillion dollars in debt, we just got through a massive era defining plague (some of still not quite through it) and now inflation is rampant. I'd prefer to see say 10 million more Americans with health insurance rather than Russians having the right to a speedy trial or something. they seem mostly content now and the ones who aren't are totally free to leave.

I've heard the same thing, and that pooty is now killing his own close supporters for lying to him even tho he bubbled himself with them and they only told him good things while they were gutting the Russian military and much of it's industry.

Ironically this is one area where he's done pretty much the opposite of Hitler, because poots surrounded himself with former KGB he who he saw as 'loyal' (HAW!) to himbecausethey told him he was right while they gutted Russia economically and industrially.

Hitler had generals who told him the damn truth about how incredibly wrong he was strategically and he ignored them, then fired them when his insane doomed strategies failed.

you guys are LARPing as russia experts.  as if any of us could have the slightest idea of what he thinks or what is going on in his sessions with subordinates.

It's probably because he's not using WMDs, e.g., bombers and missiles. As I pointed out earlier, I recall a former U.S. military general interviewed by one outlet during the early weeks of the war, and he pointed out that if that were the U.S. the war would have ended on Day One. That's because the U.S. would have bombed Ukraine back to the stone age. Given such circumstances, force size won't matter. If you don't believe me, check out what happened to the Iraqis during the first Gulf War.

Another problem is that unlike the U.S., not only Russia but even China are not prepared for war. The U.S. has been able to hone its war skills by attacking multiple countries, all weak ones, for decades:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/

It can do that because unlike Russia and even China it has over 800 military bases and installations worldwide, several encircling Russia and China and others used for decades to set up schools to train right-wing death squads in South America (e.g., the School of the Americas), help local military forces set up low intensity conflict in others (e.g., hamletting, zoning, and search-and-destroy operations coupled with "winning hearts and minds"), etc. Those were paid for using the biggest military budget in the world (it's bigger than those of the other military powers combined), and the costs passed on to the U.S. public who mostly can't even point out the countries that the U.S. invaded on a map, or even give the basic facts about major wars in which their country participated in, from the Revolution to the Civil War to even both World Wars. That's why they appear to be divided about this, with Biden's low ratings and their complaints that financial aid that should be going to them are going to Ukraine.

Why, then, did Russia decide to attack Ukraine, did not follow the U.S. in using WMDs, and held only areas dominated by Russians? Here are my guesses:

1. They know that the U.S. and NATO won't retaliate as long as they don't go beyond those territories, and they can justify the invasion that way. Also, they believe that if they go too far then many countries will stop trading with them, especially China.

2. If the U.S. ups military aid to Ukraine, then the U.S. public will complain, arguing that that aid should be going to them, and this will weaken Biden even more. This can also be seen in light of high levels of divisiveness in the states, with Biden's low ratings, etc.

3. They are relying on the U.S. (which reportedly only has a few weeks of diesel left) and the EU to weaken in their stance as they begin to realize that trade, especially over oil and gas, has to resume. Their own allies, including Israel and Saudi Arabia, raised that early on. OTOH, the U.S. can probably do both, i.e., send more troops (even though recruitment in their military is plummeting as most U.S. youths are not interested or qualified to serve in the military, and according to the military itself, in most careers due to obesity, illnesses, low test scores, mental problems, and vices) or provide more money while businesses are allowed to continue deals with both Ukraine and Russia.

4. They probably think that more are now aware of what the U.S. was doing to and with Ukraine from 2004 onward, e.g., the manipulated revolutions (also attempted in Thailand and HK), i.e., covert funding of pro-U.S. protesters and social media, the U.S. media which has been dishing out pro-war sentiments against countries that go against U.S. ideals of democracy, and all part of neoconservative and neoliberal views promoted by each Presidency since Reagan.

The same is probably also happening in the states, with Biden's low ratings and more economic problems in store. But it's not just Biden: most U.S. Presidents have been following Wall Street for decades, which controls the U.S. economy and wants the government to make sure that the petrodollar is kept propped up.

Meanwhile, I get this feeling that Russia was not planning to take over Ukraine and instead occupy only parts of it, especially the eastern part and Crimea. It's possible that if they took control of the whole area they would lose support from most countries, which today remain neutral, wanting to maintain trade with both Ukraine and Russia.

Before all that, I sense that the U.S. was trying to maintain its grand chessboard strategy of encircling Russia and China, which is why it needed to manipulate Ukraine. It was also trying similar with Thailand and HK but didn't succeed.

I was thinking the same thing. The idea of bringing democracy to other countries was put to the forefront by Reagan, through neoconservatism (the belief that the U.S. should use its military to force other countries to be free, but in the process prop up pro-U.S. governments) and neoliberalism (the belief that countries should force open their economies in the name of freedom, and in the proces be open for exploitation by stronger economies, like that of the U.S.). That's why it has to spend a lot on its military and has to make sure that most countries rely on the dollar for trade. Otherwise, the heavy borrowing and spending scheme (which is also needed to support high military costs) that started growing significantly in the early 1980s could no longer continue.

About the latter point, the U.S. now has total debts of something like $70 trillion, and it has in addition almost $200 trillion of unfunded liabilities. The only way it can even cover the interest on that debt is to borrow more money. That, in turn, can only take place if most countries worldwide remain weak and continue to rely on the dollar.

Meanwhile, many of these weak countries have become stronger economically and are now answering back at the U.S.

Well, les, haven't you spent the last year in here going against conventional thought, posting as if you have some special insight into Putin's brain and inner circle, saying most people had it wrong and Russia's invasion of Ukraine was because Putin felt threatened by NATO? That seems to be a minority view, to say the least, and kinda makes you callin' the kettle, you know? What I posted actually was an informed opinion that had been told to me by someone who actually analyzes the world situation for a living, and I thought his insights were interesting enough to share. If he's a "LARP-er" he's one who gets paid a lot to be one. In the end what's true of Russia will be true despite what we armchair generals post on a message board. (Also, remember, counter ideas, don't attack a person.)

ER, you beat me to it, although I'd say military expert rather than Russia (and since I have over 2 decades of experience in that field, I think I don't have to LARP it either).

I can absolutely prove my point of view pointing to dozens of experts from George kennan and henry Kissinger to  putins own public statements himself. which i've done repeatedly in this thread.

here is a massive list of quotes from foreign policy experts saying the same exact thing I'm saying https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592


the idea that people would put any credence in state department talking points after iraq is incredible to me. and un American. we are supposed to be a nation that learns from its mistakes and applies critical thinking to things

Makes you wonder why Putin was so keen to join NATO himself and why at Russia's request a pathway for his country to join was laid out.

Maybe because he thought the "they Live" esque worldwide elites actually wanted peace?

Look, russia is a crappy country. So was Iraq. crappy countries have bad presidents and terrible laws. The US is the best country but we shouldn't ATTACK crappy ones, we should lead by example. What has isolating Cuba done but prolong the ridiculous system of socialism? having free trade w/ them would have ended all that decades ago. We're on the wrong path with all this stuff , Alex.

Thanks for sharing that. I was going to mention John Mearsheimer in a subsequent post. His 2015 lecture is notable:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

I'd like to add to these points:

Some say that in order to ensure that its economy continues to grow, the U.S. needs to be engaged in conflict in one place or the other; in short, perpetual warfare. That's because it invests heavily in the defense industry and the military, and such investments and costs cannot be justified unless they are used. Of course, following what military powers did throughout the Cold War conflict should involve proxy wars, i.e., those who are powerful using weaker countries as battlegrounds. This minimizes the number of U.S. lives lost.

The idea that the U.S. is the best country is part of exceptionalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

which argues that all countries should be like the U.S. by promoting individual liberties, democracy, and free markets.

It's connected to neoconservatism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

which argues that the U.S. should not be pacifist but aggressive in defending those principles, meaning it should use foreign policies and military force to make countries follow what the U.S. promotes. Given that, its military force obviously has to be very powerful, which is why the country has to take on tremendous amounts of debt (passed on to the public) to pay for that military.

It's also connected to neoliberalism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

which calls for all countries to be free economically. That unwittingly allows the U.S. and other rich countries to exploit the natural resources and cheap labor of these countries.

A leader known to promote exceptionalism through both neoconservatism and neoliberalism was Ronald Reagan. He was joined by Margaret Thatcher and others, and later subsequent Presidents from both political parties did the same.

What's not mentioned is the actual reason for exceptionalism, and that has to do with the use of the dollar as a reserve currency. That is, all countries need to use the dollar for trade because their own currencies might not be stable. At the same time, this makes the U.S. immensely powerful because with the same dollar it creates through debt it can buy many things cheap worldwide. The same dollar creation can also be used to prop up the "American dream" or the "American way of life," which is connected to exceptionalism itself: the U.S. is the greatest country in the world because its citizens are rich and happy, and it can lead all of the other countries so that they can have the same. But to do that, they have to open up their economies for trade (which involves using the dollar for the same) and with that have governments that promote freedom.

And there's the connection: by forcing countries to be free, they actually become more dependent on the U.S., which the U.S. needs in order to create more credit it needs to prop up the "American dream" and high military costs. The same military together with foreign policies are used to make sure that these countries toe the line.

But how to convince the U.S. public about that? Media has to show that all other countries are at best crappy, especially those who question it. Only the U.S. is the best and everyone should aspire to be like it. Those who don't are the enemy.

That's why Reagan referred to the Soviet Union and its allies as the "evil empire." Later, Dubya referred to the "axis of evil." In both case, an unconditional choice is involved: either you are with the U.S., or you are for the terrorists. There is no middle ground.

This also explains why after the Vietnam War mainstream media eventually became the cheerleaders of the government, and both funded by Wall Street. Movies, TV shows, and other media depicted those who went against the U.S. as the enemy. That way, the public would never question what the government was doing.

Another thing that's barely mentioned is the point that the U.S. received support from these weak countries not only by destabilizing or invading them but also later propping up regimes that are friendly to the U.S., including those of Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, and others.

Finally, about Cuba, I found out that even with the trade embargo imposed by the U.S. it managed to make its economy grow by 400 pct the last two decades, from $25 billion in 1998 to $100 billion by 2018. That's equivalent to a growth rate of around 10 pct per annum, much higher than U.S.-style democracies like the Philippines could accomplish. Also, it surprisingly has many factors that are as good as or exceed that of the U.S., from low infant mortality rates to high levels of education to quite good health care to numbers of doctors and scientists engaged in science and technology. In fact, it appears to do better overall than pro-U.S. Philippines.

I agree with you that the US policy towards Cuba is redundant. I agree that you shouldn't just attack a country because it is crappy. The rest of what you say, not so much.

I wish there was as much passion for helping those displaced by this war (who are facing a hard winter) as there is for debating the conflict over a keyboard.

Ralfy - ehhh even raul Castro has admitted that besides of the sanctions Cuba has serious problems. socialism is inherently a limiting system, really no place for ambitious sort of people. Like most of the countries down there, they have very very nice beaches and make most of their $$ that way. Providing absurd luxury to fatcat capitalists from all over the world!



So much of what we've see since 2016 is a reaction to trump and the fear that he will steer the whole world into an iceburg.  Meanwhile, Biden has us back in the cold war and on the edge of a nuclear disaster.

Biden is the psycho everyone thought Trump was gonna be

The rest explains U.S. policy towards Cuba, as it belongs to the same set of policies used to coerce weaker countries in other parts of the world.

If it's a limiting system, then Cuba should have experienced poor economic growth. Instead, it experienced the opposite: an average rate of 10 pct per annum, which allowed it to quadruple the size of its economy.

Interestingly enough, similar took place in Asian countries which promoted socialist policies like protectionism and national economic planning. It might have to do with the point that they were promoted together with heavy infrastructure development needed for manufacturing and even mechanized agriculture.

In contrast, countries like the Philippines did the opposite as it copied the U.S. The result is an ave. economic growth rate that's a fraction of what the others experienced.

Finally, what's interesting about Trump is that he tried to make peace with North Korea, was going to do the same for Yemen, was more interested in trade deals with China, and wanted to decrease military expenditures.

The problem is that the military industrial complex, which Sachs was talking about, and which has been backed by every U.S. President, and coupled with exceptionalism by Presidents from Reagan onward, does not support that.

marx believed in free trade, protectionism is a FASCIST policy if anything, though every country practices some form of it

at any rate this is off the topic

If by free trade you mean free market capitalism, I think he wasn't.

I think protectionism is socialist when implemented by democracies. It is fascist when implemented by fascist regimes.

The evening nooz is now saying that the white house is trying to get Zelenskyy to warm up to the idea of peace, but he has never been interested in it.....
It seems I recall Zelenskyy offering to secede occupied territories in exchange for peace, but Putin wouldn't consider it...

ralfy- he also opposed tariffs. he was an economist

Sorry, but I missed this reply earlier.


Think you'll find the Russians are using both bombers and missiles. Try googling Russian missile attacks, and Russian aircraft strikes. Did you know that in NATO exercises where they simulate a war against Russia, they leave out modern air defences, because if they include them, the US airforce gets annihilated? You've not faced a country with modern air defences, so bombing them into the stone age may not be as effective as you might think. Especially not if the enemy is spread out with smaller-scale actions (platoon-sized clashes) rather than big armies clashing, as seems to be the case in Ukraine, rather than clumped together as they were in Iraq. You have two very different situations here, comparing the two scenarios is like comparing apples and DVDs. Force size does matter a lot, although not perhaps in the way you were thinking.

While there isn't an official definition, the phrase WMD tend to refer to biological, chemical and nuclear weapons. Unless you count depleted uranium rounds used to take out armoured vehicles, to the best of my knowledge they were never against Iraq's though. They don't tend to be used to refer to conventional bombs or missiles (not since around the end of World War 2 anyway). I am assuming you were meaning conventional, high-explosive weapons though here, rather than accusing US and allied forces of committing war crimes.

Even if the forces are all clumped up all nice and close together for you to bomb them, and you get past their air defences, yeah you might win a conventional war on day 1. What happens then? Well, then you get caught up in a much different affair. The enemy adapts and fights guerilla style. As we've seen in recent years, the US does not handle unconventional warfare very well. Might take a decade or two, but eventually, you lose. Given how both Iraq and Afghanistan ended up I am surprised to hear of a general saying they'd have won the fight in the first day. If it really was that simple, both those conflicts should have ended up totally differently.

Just some food for thought.

Nice to have input from someone with actual knowledge of and experience in these matters.

He opposed tariffs because he was against the idea of nation. For him, it's a bourgeois concept created so that the rich could maintain control over the proletariat.

What he wanted was world Communism, with no nations. Hence, "workers of the world, unite."

That's not the same as opposing tariffs to encourage free trade, which the bourgeois also want because it allows for more business, and thus makes them richer.

Might make sense if more Americans are suffering economically and complaining that the aid for Ukraine should go to them.

I don't think they're using it on a scale that the U.S. would, especially given the U.S. did in Iraq and Afghanistan, e.g., MOABs (mother-of-all-bombs or "daisy cutters") which some say killed large numbers of civilians. Otherwise, as that former U.S. general puts it, the war would have ended quickly.

In addition, such use of WMDs (that refers to any weapon that does extensive damage, including explosives) following what the U.S. did would not require the use of large numbers of personnel. That's why the U.S. managed to take control of various countries quickly.

Finally, I think the general was referring to invasion rather than occupation. This explains why, as you put it, the U.S. struggled in the latter. For example, in Iraq, it ended up coming up with a weird coalition of Saddam's former men which they supported in the past to counter Islamic fundamentalist, their own puppets, and the same Islamic fundamentalists who hate them. The whole thing eventually fell apart.

Similarly, in Afghanistan, they tried to form some coalition consisting of their own stooges, Northern Alliance rapists and drug pushers, and Islamic fundamentalists stemming from mujahedeen which they supported to counter the Soviets and eventually turned on them. That fell apart, too.

Given these, perhaps we're seeing similar in Ukraine, following what was shared in this lecture and in others:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

That is, another attempt at regime change following over five decades of similar, to prop up a pro-U.S. government and then use that to exploit the country strategically and even economically.

That fell apart when Russian attacked but stopped at regions controlled by Russians. Will it follow through and copy the U.S. by trying to occupy more of the country?

There's an interesting set of quotes from foreign policy experts on subject shared here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689325.html#msg689325 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689325.html#msg689325)

Here's the link:

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592 (https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592)

Interestingly enough, several of them are Cold War strategists, and come from left and right ideologies, plus former politicians and government officials.

Some of the notable ones for me are uni-based ones, like Noam Chomsky and John Mearsheimer. The latter is mentioned here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689410.html#msg689410 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689410.html#msg689410)

For Chomsky, I'd like to share the ff. asides, as they may give us some perspective on what Jeffrey Sachs said here:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689145.html#msg689145 (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,157145.msg689145.html#msg689145)

From Chomsky:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRbnPA3fd5U#)

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXtgq0Nhsc#)

I think the gist is that the military industrial complex coupled with the use of the dollar as a reserve currency, and even the petrodollar, is likely what underlies U.S. foreign policies, including what happened to Ukraine from 2004 to the Russian invasion.

its exactly the same . man

I don't have time at the moment (just about to go to work), but I will try and give you an in-depth answer later.

Of course, not. Marx argued that nationalism is a bourgeois concept needed to maintain private property. He wanted private property abolished and the formation of a dictatorship of the proletariat, after which all would combined and form world communism.

 
If this is true, I agree with Lester that POO-TIN felt threatened by NATO.  I also think Russia is out of touch and POO-TIN is surrounded by Yes-men.  Other than unwarranted swipes, don't we all agree? 

Russia is a country ran by paranoia, justified paranoia.

Napoleon invaded Russia abd even reached Moscow. His arny caused massive destruction and death in Russia, abd Russian children are raised to know that. After WW1 British and France attacked Russia to overturn tge Bolshevik revolution and used poison gas on Russians before being driven out of Russia.  In ww2 the Nazis invaded Russia and a huge part of Russia's population were killed, like 20 million according to some estimates.

Right after ww2 American general Patton starting shooting his big mouth off about how America should rebuild the Nazi army to go in and 'finish off russia''.

Russia has had a brutal history, and always ruled by the most brutal and ruthless. We must remember that. Putin's politics consist of murdering any challenger to his throne. Russia is not like any western country, it's a kratocracy.

Putin is "threatened by NATO," certainly, it's dampened many of his expansionist goals. And, yes, Putin is surrounded by fearful sycophants and the like-minded. So, yes.

If there's one thing Putin knows its SURVIVAL. The idea that he apropos of nothing decided to invade Ukraine for his own glory doesn't make sense. If that was his attitude he would have been gone decades ago

Countries like Russia, Iran, and China know the US is constantly bearing down on them and they move very carefully and deliberately

More likely by moves from NATO, the EU, and the U.S. from 2004 onward. The details are, I think, given in this 2015 lecture:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

Actually, many military powers are, including the U.S. This list started with Wounded Knee, but its first "Vietnam" was the Philippines, where part was turned into a "howling wilderness":

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/ (https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/)

The most prominent ones include what happened during the last two decades. Throughout that time, many did not choose to "stand up" to them, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Yemen.

This idea should not surprise anyone. According to Hobsbawm, the Cold War led to over 40 million deaths, and involved mostly poor, unarmed civilians (and around half of them children and the elderly) in developing countries whose areas were used for proxy wars.

Such is the case for Ukraine, which according to the lecture linked earlier, has been caught in the crossfire for so long.

Given that, I'd like to think that, if any, Russia very much resembles Western countries, especially the U.S. The difference is that it doesn't have the massive killing power that the U.S. possesses. But like the rest of BRICS and emerging markets, it's growing up thanks to economic growth.

And that is unacceptable for U.S. neocons/neolibs.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

Those expansionist goals involve dealing with separatist groups nearby. The same goes for China. Both are not at par with what the U.S. can do, especially with over 800 military bases and installations worldwide and the killing spree of the last two decades.

I thought the same: the West has been manipulating Ukraine since 2004, and it's part of a U.S. grand chessboard strategy of using over 800 military bases and installations worldwide plus foreign policies to coerce weak countries and encircle both Russia and China.

The last point is also notable. The U.S. has been using a combination of neoconservatism and neoliberalism since the Reagan years to make sure that other countries toe the line by relying on the dollar for trade and opening up their economies to exploitation for resources and cheap labor.

That's why Russia, Iran, and China may also be seen as part of BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) and over forty emerging markets (including Iran, the Philippines, Turkey, and various South American and African countries) that have been growing stronger economically the last three decades. They are now answering back at those in power, which is why recently not only Saudi Arabia but even Israel, Malaysia, and Singapore refused to follow the U.S. and insist on continuing to engage in trade with both Ukraine and Russia.

Even the Philippines, which is one of the biggest supporters of the U.S. worldwide, wants to remain a friend to Russia and China.

Some humbly offered advice, ralfy. Your posts are unfocused because they go everywhere. Maybe you could concentrate your reply in a single post that summed up your thoughts instead of trying to play tag with everyone, and thereby appearing scattered as to what ideas you want to convey on the topic of the bats**t atrocities of Russia's maniacal dictator.

Russia, Iran, and China are perfect boogeymen for American propaganda purposes because they have been around forever and are thus recognizable.

All 3 of these places mostly want to be left alone besides of China, who have a more complicated situation racially/ culturally etc and have weird ideas about what constitutes their actual space on this earth.

bottom line: the world isn't flat. The US doesn't have infinite resources. The operative bible story is not Revelation but the tower of Babel. All God has to do is snap his fingers and our empire is over

"Just be-cause you're paranoooid, does-n't mean they're not after yooooou...."

(https://images.jacobinmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/20144900/is34-uneven-and-combined-map-1945.png)

It's actually the opposite: my arguments are very clear and focused.

The gist is that the U.S. is owned by the rich, and the U.S. government that works for it uses neoconservatism (as seen in the military industrial complex) and neoliberalism (as seen in IMF-WB structural adjustment policies) to make sure that the global economy continues to use the dollar as a reserve currency. The reason that's needed is because the same use is the only thing that allows the U.S. to maintain four decades of heavy borrowing and spending.

Neoconservatism involves the use of a heavily funded military to set up over 800 military bases and installations worldwide to coerce, destabilize, and even bully others, as well as encircle rivals like Russia and China.

The problem is that not only Russia and China but also Brazil, India, South Africa, and over forty countries have become stronger economically and are answering back.

That's why many of them, including U.S. allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel, refused to follow the U.S., and plan to continue trading with Russia. The same goes for countries like Singapore, Malaysia, and others in Asia.

Why are they doing that? It's probably because they understand what happened to Ukraine from 2004 onward, when the U.S. manipulated Ukraine through coups and economic deals. There are more points from this 2015 lecture:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

They are part of BRICS and forty emerging markets that are taking over the global economy. They are also slowly moving away from the dollar, forming their own economic blocs, focusing on bilateral relations, and using either special drawing rights or their own currencies for trade.

The U.S. needs the world economy to do the opposite, which is to remain dependent on the dollar as a reserve currency and to even oil priced only in dollars, because the loss of that dependence won't allow it to continue heavy borrowing and spending. And without those two, its economy will fall apart.

That's why for several decades the U.S. has been engaged in employing onerous foreign policies, maintaining over 800 military bases and installations worldwide, propping up pro-U.S. regimes, destabilization, and even invasion of various countries to ensure that. One of those countries that they have been manipulating since 2004 is Ukraine.

Unfortunately, the "[c]razy SOB [a]ctually [d]it it" and challenged the U.S. in another proxy war. The difference is that Russia stopped at the areas dominated by Russians, and probably because it did not want to lose trade with many countries that are remaining neutral. That's why recently countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel suprisingly disagreed with the U.S., insisting that they will continue trading with Russia. The same took place for Singapore, Malaysia, and other countries in Asia.

Yes, those are the hundreds of military bases and installations worldwide:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321/ (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/us-military-bases-around-the-world-119321/)

and for many decades they were used to coerce weaker countries, if not combined with other gov't agencies and foreign policies to employ low intensity conflict, destablization, coups, and invasions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/7/16/ameri-coup-a-brief-history-of-us-misdeeds (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/7/16/ameri-coup-a-brief-history-of-us-misdeeds)

That's why even one former U.S. President referred to the U.S. as the most warlike in modern history:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)

Ironically, they are also part of a grand chessboard strategy that was raised by one of his former officials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard)

Given that, one can see these, Sachs' point about the military industrial complex, and the lecture shared earlier in light of what happened to Ukraine.

Well goddamn, I think it's terrible that you have all the answers yet aren't running for President so you can fix the f**king world.

most of the wealthiest counties in the US are in Virginia and Maryland because that's where the military industrial complex is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

its all a scam, a clever method of moving money from the continental US to  DC

Even if you guys are 100% right about the military industrial complex, it doesn't change the Russians from the bad guys into the good guys in this particular scenario, or make Putin's decision to invade a rational one.

If a drone hits the apartment where my Ukrainian friend lives and kills her, I'm not blaming her death on the West.

If my Russian friend mysteriously disappears forever after making a Facebook post criticizing the "special operation," I'm not blaming the West.

Dig it!

 Who you blame or what you believe is besides the point, objectively speaking

Ditto for you.

I mean my Dad was in Vietnam. i wouldn't blame him if he hated Vietnamese people but he doesn't, he hates the people who put him there. Sometimes the thing thats right in front of you isn't the real problem.

Aim for the puppeteer not the puppet as I believe Malcolm X said


that said, I certainly hope your friends are okay

I'm not sure, but I think I shared one documentary from Pilger related to this incident. Just in case I didn't, here it is:

"The Coming War on China"

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAfeYMONj9E#)

There's an interesting point given by one Chinese expert interviewed in it. He said the main difference between China and the U.S. is that the ruler of China is the Communist Party while the ruler of the U.S. is Wall Street.

That's why, as another documentary puts it, everything is a rich man's trick:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVpt_I9iQQ#)

which should not be surprising if the world economy is essentially controlled by the rich:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/)

In which case, the one who becomes President will likely not fix the world but continue working for those who call the shots.

The bulk of the economy is controlled by a few:

https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/top-wealth-in-america-new-estimates-and-implications-for-taxing-the-rich/ (https://economics.princeton.edu/working-papers/top-wealth-in-america-new-estimates-and-implications-for-taxing-the-rich/)

That's why around 90 pct of media are controlled by six corporations, a large chuck of assets managed by only three, and even food processing, pharma, etc., are mostly owned by a few.

Since the 1960s that economy has been increasing dependent on borrowing and spending as the country reached late capitalism. That's why debts have been soaring, and much of it needed to support even the same MIC and pay for a very expensive military.

Given that, even an unwary public will wonder why they are being asked to pay for something that's not needed. That's why the media has to show them that the U.S. has lots of enemies and that the country has to be aggressive in countering them. As one ex-general in this short video put it, when all one has is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4#)

I think it's because the situation isn't as simple as most thought. In this case, the context of the invasion might be seen in this:

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

The implication is that the West was manipulating Ukraine to side with it while it continued demonizing Russia and even countries like China. How is this connected to the MIC? Because the only way to justify very high military spending is war.

Finally, that history of manipulation and more is extensive:

https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/ (https://sites.evergreen.edu/zoltan/interventions/)

One can argue that this is expected of "crazy SOBs" like Russian "bad guys". But why did the "good guys" do the same, and most are not aware of this?

About this aside, from what I remember, the Vietnamese called for elections and the Communists won. The South and the West rejected it, so the U.S. started arming the South, leading to a continuation of war. Eventually, the South fell apart.

Today, Vietnam experienced a 13.7-pct GDP growth rate last quarter, probably the highest in its history. The Philippines, which has been cooler towards the U.S., got 7.6 pct, also a record high, and all taking place even during a pandemic and war.

How about on Veterans Day you give your America-bashing oh-so deep wisdom there a rest and think for a minute that not everyone shares your pessimistic cynicism, including people who loved this nation so much they served it, many at great personal cost? There's nothing so tiresome as know it all critic, and that's how you are coming off. This thread is supposed to be about the atrocious invasion of Ukraine, but your "see how smart I am" desire to speak badly about this country oozes in. Ever tried to see the glass as half-full? Ever felt any gratitude at all for people who have done and are doing their best to make other people's lives better? Any words giving credit to anything good the US has done for the world? What about those suffering right now in Ukraine (and in Russia too)? Any sympathy there? Any constructive use of  any sympathies you might have? Some of us who see life differently find endless negativity sophomoric and boring.
So, so boring.

In the case of the Ukraine War, the puppeteer is POO-TIN. 

I agree with ER here, his post was a reminder that even if you believe you are right and may be to a degree you can let it go one day once in a while.  Also do we have to have SMFH here?

Allhallows - wrong. US/ NAto is the agressor

Lester - wrong. You are just dancing to Putin's tune.

It's not fruitful to continue arguing this point, I'll just register my disagreement and move on.

Lester, expansion of NATO is not comparable to a pre-emptive strike, bombing civilians and moving in tanked troops.

For once, I hafta agree with you.

again i can't believe after Iraq Vietnam etc anyone would buy washingtons story about what is happening anywhere. or take their enemies as ones own


more to the point

(https://progressive.org/downloads/16992/download/pasted%20image%200.jpg?cb=ee21b073991ccd2a5801b059f0af4e21&w=550&h=)

The picture is anecdotal; get real.  You have entered the realm of blah blah blah. 

Lester, your insights are not lost on everyone, but don't put all your eggs in one basket.  There is no USA troops on the ground, but there are Russians and Ukrainians.  The blame game is a distraction of history - the advice you've been offering - and POO-TIN holding your basket is liable to bust all your eggs. 

I'd rather not support neo nazis, personally

And yet you are quite happy to support a side using them.

the picture is of Ukrainians not Russians. and I don't support any side

lester, I've always known you to be an intelligent person, a thinker outside the box, even when I haven't always agreed with you, so I would like to ask you something I asked you for the first time back in 2011. The question is, what's a realistic alternative to the global situation you so often speak out against and claim is in effect? Honest question, not an opening for an argument, just sincere curiosity, because surely you do have an alternative plan in mind that you advocate.

You might want to read your own posts because you certainly don't come off as not supporting any side. I wasn't referring to the picture. I was referring to the Russian use of neo nazi units. I am aware the Ukrainian's have a unit that includes such elements. They were in the process of clearing those people out of their military, but Russian actions since 2014 put an end to that and they've been forced to use all the troops they can get. It wouldn't surprise though that you'd pull up the Ukrainian military for using such troops while ignoring the Russians doing it. Despite your protestation, you quite clearly have a side you are supporting and it shows in your bias.

Not supporting either side is a position I could understand and respect. If you really don't support the Russians, lester, you need to work a lot harder at showing it. Your posts all come off like a Putin fanboy.

Earlier in the thread I said that "I thought you only didn't want us involved in the conflict in any way, not that you were actively rooting for Russia" and you mocked my post. Then RC accused you of being pro-Russia, and you didn't deny it. So I have assumed since then you are actively rooting for Russia.

This is like a House of Unamerican Activities meeting.


ER - Well I admit my position that we have no responsibility to the rest of the world is somewhat marginal, but do we have EVERY responsibility? Where is that line? We are 30 trillion dollars in debt and our own nation isn't doing so hot.

an Example: we spent billions in the last decade arming and supporting the "moderate rebels" in Syria. That they were ideologically in line with the likes of Al Queda and ISIS was just about the worst kept secret in town. so we're giving money to people who probably celebrated on 9/11 and why? for human rights?

Was Syria going to attack the continental United States? Of course not. The reason was the Saudis hate Iran and Syria because of some insane religious doctorine argument and Israel sees Iran not saudi arabia as a threat because Iran is hostile to them and Saudis are bought and paid for.

These countries are dictatorships and quasi dictatorships because they SUCK. These are sucky places. The US is a good place we should be making it better


REV- I mocked you because you seemed to not understand to the fact that there was any other position besides your own.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)

I don't get it

We know... :smile:

The ukraine  invasion did not occur in a vaccuum, Russia seized Crimea a few years back and shot down a western civilian jetliner full of civilians, and got away with it. Ukraine has to be a line in the sand and pooty can't be allowed to cross it.

It's after Veterans' Day now, so I can continue, right?

My intention isn't to deny this "atrocious invasion." Rather, it's to study the "atrocious intervention" that led to it.

I don't deny the good that the U.S. did to others, including the Marshal Plan, but when its most liberal former President refers to it as the equivalent of the top warmonger not only of the world but in modern history, then I can't easily ignore that:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/04/19/jimmy-carter-us-most-warlike-nation-in-history-of-the-world/)


And even those years of peace are questionable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine)


And since we're now talking about being sympathetic, where were all those "I stand with Ukraine" cheerleaders when hundreds of thousands of Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians, Yemenis, and more were suffering and dying? Were they following the logic of the Carter doctrine, stating that that was necessary in order to ensure protecting what is strategically important? What's the possibility that that "crazy SOB" is also thinking the same?

So, now we have a double-standard: Russia is insane if it follows not just the equivalent of the Carter but even the Reagan doctrine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Doctrine)


but the U.S. is not because it's exceptional, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism)

So, my question remains: why didn't most "freedom-loving" people worldwide not notice that as the West coerced, destabilized, and coerced multiple countries across decades, but are now upset when China sets up installations in the SCS (pop quiz: which country has the most installations in the region? clue: it's not China) and Russia invades Ukraine?

Perhaps you already answered the question: because it's boring to hear that. But doesn't that argument work both ways?

I think, following what the OP said, he's a "crazy SOB," but lashing out at the puppeteer.

But who's the puppeteer? Might this lecture help?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4#)

But doesn't that argument work both ways?

That's possible:

"History has shown that NATO is the aggressor"

https://challenge-magazine.org/2022/02/22/history-has-shown-that-nato-is-the-aggressor/

I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies.

In my case, I follow most countries that want to remain neutral because I think we're looking at two "crazy SOBs" and not one.

https://twitter.com/profwolff/status/1591475916592611329

WAH-rong!   :teddyr:

People are blaming NATO for provoking the Russian attack on Ukraine. Has anyone considered Russia's seizure of Crimea 'provoked' countries to seek NATO membership?

here's a question:

If the US were to start putting troops into Ukraine and declared war on Russia would people have a problem with that? Also, considering we are literally paying the salaries of Ukraine's government and funding their military to massive extent is there really a difference between that and now?

Considering the war that the Biden administration has declared on energy & transportation, and considering the effects it's had on the supply chain, which has in turn wrecked various forms of employment as well as our ability to produce, not to mention the New Woke Military, the whole notion leaves me very nervous....

If Iraq and Vietnam had been fought by mercenary armies instead of american soldiers would they then have been okay?

Yes.



Yes.

Thanks for answering my question, lester.

That question is not clear or simple to answer. It depends on a lot of factors that can't be expressed in a one-sentence proposal.

Vietnam was a civil war, it would have been fought in any case whether the Cold War powers supported one side or the other. I don't see it as immoral for us to side with the South Vietnamese against the Communists---it was imprudent because of the amount of resources we had to commit for no real gain for anyone. Merely supplying weapons to the South Vietnamese would have been fine. The draft, on the other hand, was immoral. It's not black and white.

I assume you mean Iraq 2, not Iraq 1. I don't know that I can envision a situation where it's fought by "mercenary armies." You mean by funding a revolution? I imagine it would depend on a bunch of hypotheticals that make it impossible to know. I mean, you could certainly design a scenario where it would be unjust.

I see a big difference between mere foreign aid and declaring war/committing American lives. It's a gradation. Support doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Edit: not sure I understood lester's question completely so I'm adding a bit.

"Mercenary armies" just isn't really a thing the US has done in the 20th/21st centuries. I mean, it's better than the draft, which should only be used when we face a near-existential threat. It seems inferior to simply arming the people who live there and are eager to fight, like Afghanis against the Soviets or the Ukrainians today. And we definitely do not want private armies like the Wagner Group in the US. there's something dad and distasteful about mercenaries, men who have nothing better to do with their lives than to risk them money. I don't know that literal mercenaries are an option that's on the table.

I'm unaware of any war President Biden has declared on energy and transportation.

"Wrong" means the opposite.

I think neocons were provoking people in Crimea to protest against pro-Russian Ukrainians in 2014, and as part of color revolutions. The goal of the latter were to destabilize countries, foster revolutions, and then bring in political leaders who would work with and for the U.S. and its allies.

My sense is that many U.S. citizens are suffering economically and argue that aid should go to them and not to Ukraine.

Interestingly enough, there's an article about that here:

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/want-solve-america%E2%80%99s-recruiting-crisis-recruit-foreigners-204260 (https://nationalinterest.org/feature/want-solve-america%E2%80%99s-recruiting-crisis-recruit-foreigners-204260)

The U.S. is having difficulty recruiting because most U.S. youth are not qualified for military service and even many careers due to illness (physical and mental), vices, and low test scores. The writer suggests recruiting from foreigners.

Another problem is that the only way the U.S. has been able to spend on the military and even sustain its economy is heavy borrowing and spending, which is started doing during Reagan's term:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163-krugman-and-the-pied-pipers-of-debt (https://seekingalpha.com/article/164163-krugman-and-the-pied-pipers-of-debt)

(https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/9/30/saupload_public_and_private_debt_burden.jpg)

Ironically, the same thing is what fostered the military industrial complex, neoliberalism which led to a few Americans controlling the economy, and the 2008 financial crash. The country recovered from the latter by taking on more debt and then bailing out the rich for free.

It has to keep borrowing and spending to sustain the economy and cannot pay back total debt, just part of the interest on it. Total debt is estimated at $70 trillion, excluding over $170 trillion in unfunded liabilities:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/ (https://www.usdebtclock.org/)

Meanwhile, more Americans are complaining about high military costs and even aid sent to other countries instead of the same going to them.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)

From what I remember, the Communists won in elections, but the U.S. refused to accept that, so it propped up Saigon generals and fostered splitting the country, after which it used a false flag to instigate war. Meanwhile, it assassinated or oustered its own Saigon puppets who did not want to fight. Eventually, the Communists won, but the war led to two million dead.

The U.S. did similar in Iraq: it supported Saddam as part of pan-Arab nationalism and to counter the Soviets, after which it pushed Iraq into attacking Iran when the latter removed its U.S.-backed dictator. Later, it used false flags to invade Iraq, occupy Basra, and set up more military presence in the region. The irony is that most Iraqis don't like the U.S., and they were controlled for decades by U.S.-backed Saddam. That's why during the occupation the U.S. had to use Saddam's former men from the Ba'ath, their own puppets, and leaders from the same population to come up with some weird co-rule. It didn't work.

Finally, I think what they did was not to design intervention to make it appear that they were just but the opposite. Such intervention is unjust as the U.S. was not threatened physically by any of these countries. That's why the U.S. employed false flags, low intensity conflict, etc.

Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?

wrong
/rôNG/

    1.not correct or true; incorrect. "that is the wrong answer"

OK, I guess? No false flags in Iraq, even intentional misrepresentation of WMDs would not technically meet the definition of "false flag." Like most of your posts, it seems intelligent but wanders way off topic.

I'd rather annoy you.  You don't like being wrong, but you don't have to resort to insults.   Tap dancer. 

Rereading & rethinking your question, I'd hafta go back to something that got me a lotta boos:
"Wag The Dog For Burisma"

remember when Biden said we were going to stay out of it?

Lester: "I don't get it"

All: "We know..."

Ralfy: "I think he's trying to point out in a 4chan way that you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd. The problem is that much of media is doing that for the U.S. and its allies."

All: "WAH-rong!" [That is, I'm not claiming that he's cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."

Ralfy: "'Wrong' means the opposite." [That is, the opposite of the claim that "you're just cheerleading for the pro-Russia crowd."]

All: [posts the same pic in response to Ralfy]

Ralfy: "Instead of acting like a buffoon, why don't you contribute important points to this discussion?" [A buffoon is not interested in contributing important points. Rather, he only wants to annoy others.]

All: "I'd rather annoy you.  You don't like being wrong, but you don't have to resort to insults.   Tap dancer.  "

I think that was a false flag, especially given the claim that Saddam was working with terrorists. Also, I don't understand how I am wandering way off topic when I am simply responding to points to you raised, i.e., Vietnam and Iraq.

 

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/ad/06/cfad069489300f8aa8439e26d8ffb3b3.gif)

IMS that I agree with you here.  Iraq had zip to do with 911, Hussein hated hard-core Islamic extremists as they were a threat a to his power base. When  a large group of them tried to organize in Iraq he massacred hundreds of them.

Bush Jr planned to seize iraq somehow from his first day in office, he was looking for an excuse from day one as later exposed documents revealed.  911 was just an excuse todo what he wanted  to anyway.  A book called ''why we invaded iraq'' I believe lays out the case that we invaded iraq because Bush Jr. wanted too.

Maybe other states petitioning to join NATO just gave poots his excuse to do what he always wanted to do in Ukraine.

Russia sure has had a hell of a bad time since the SU collapsed. It invaded Afghanistan to stop it becoming a hostile Muslim power, got shellacked in it and  now it is a hostile islamofascist state next to them.  It's economy tanked, it got taken over by a total despot and his cult of personality junta,  now it's a pariah state and it's economy is a tragic mess, plus it's population figures are in a crisis AND it's dictator has thrown away thousands of healthy young men in a Charlie foxtrot of an invasion.

I honestly can't help pitying the average Russian people. I mean the country is almost as much a chronic trainwreck as Haiti. If there truly is a higher power in the universe (I think there is but I don't claim to be certain) I wish it would send russia some sort of practical, secular 'savior' to get that country running like a state and not a perpetual trainwreck ran by psychopaths and mobsters.
 

I could be wrong, but I interpreted Allhallowsday's tap-dancing post as a reference to the American idiom "tap dance around the subject," i.e. refusing to answer a direct question or accusation by bringing up other subjects. So if I understood correctly he's not accusing lester of pro-Russia cheerleading, but of evasiveness.

I think the term "false flag" is thrown around too casually and tends to decrease your persuasiveness, since it's a favorite claim of 911 truthers and Alex Jones types. A false flag is not merely misinformation, propaganda, or an untrue claim. It's a deliberate staging of an act for which you blame others, like bombing your own people and claiming terrorists did it. True false flags are exceedingly rare in history (or are small scale events).

"Wandering way off course" was a misrepresentation on my part, but to follow up with you would lead to off-topic conversation. In context, I was just responding to lester's hypothetical, which I found was somewhat interesting, not trying to start a new off-topic conversation about Vietnam or Iraq. I still don't know why lester posted his hypothetical since he didn't follow up.

Well by your definition then yes, it's not likely Bush was involved with 911, but I do believe he used it as an excuse to invade iraq.  Maybe it was a false flag of convenience where somone uses an event others used to justify a wrobg action.

Real false flags? Well likely tge Reichstag fire and an alleged polish attack against German forces are the two that I think were legit.