The Crazy SOB Actually Did it!

[lester1/2jr]

because my life doesn't revolve around washington's concerns? This country is falling apart but they send 15 billion to ukraine. There were 800 homicides in Chicago in 2021 maybe we should work that out first

[RCMerchant]

^ No- because you sound insane!

[lester1/2jr]

he discussed the reason for invading Ukraine in his initial speech, which is on the first page of this thread actually

President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Citizens of Russia, friends,

I consider it necessary today to speak again about the tragic events in Donbass and the key aspects of ensuring the security of Russia.

I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.

It is a fact that over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border.

.... [later]

Despite all that, in December 2021, we made yet another attempt to reach agreement with the United States and its allies on the principles of European security and NATO's non-expansion. Our efforts were in vain. The United States has not changed its position. It does not believe it necessary to agree with Russia on a matter that is critical for us. The United States is pursuing its own objectives,

[RCMerchant]

If Putin is such a great guy- why did he attack Ukraine? Why did he try to interfere with the elections? Why does he have people who speak against him killed?
Putin's a piece of s**t.

Your praise of Putin sounds insane.

[Rev. Powell]

Putin does a decent job of running Russia if you don't care about his shutting down the free press, imprisoning political enemies, poisoning and otherwise murdering his political enemies, invading his neighbors, installing puppet governments in other countries, running a propaganda empire, or supporting Syria's genocidal war.  Jeez, if an American leader did those things I hope you'd be OPPOSED to him.

Surely you are trolling?

[lester1/2jr]

Assad is fighting Al Qaeda like we are. and fighting the extermination of Middle Eastern Christians.

"invading his neighbors" you sound like a 2003 neoconservative. again, you need to learn the lessons of Iraq. The New World Order is the problem not the alleged "bad actors"

[RCMerchant]

 ^ You are insane. 

[lester1/2jr]

if the Iraq war were to happen again you guys would support it. because "everyone" hates saddam hussein

[Allhallowsday]

...It should never have come to this. Why did they keep expanding NATO when they knew it would antagonize him? as always its the little people who suffer for the policy decisions of those who don't have to feel the consequences.

^ You are insane. 

No he's not.  He's right. 

[Alex]

Possibly because at the time they joined Russia (under both Putin and Yeltsin), had asked about joining NATO. The door was opened for them to explore further, but they decided not to pursue it and because eventually those Eastern European countries were aware that if they didn't seek protection, sooner or later someone would get into power and want to get them back under Russia's banner. Either way they had no reason not to join and every reason to want to.

[Rev. Powell]

Assad is fighting Al Qaeda like we are. and fighting the extermination of Middle Eastern Christians.

"invading his neighbors" you sound like a 2003 neoconservative. again, you need to learn the lessons of Iraq. The New World Order is the problem not the alleged "bad actors"

You ignore all the enemies Putin imprisons and murders in your praise for him as a great and honorable leader who never ever lies. I think you would make a more persuasive case if you didn't sound like a huge fan of this dictator. You could certainly make a case for non-intervention without praising him---even while condemning him. I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

Anyone, neoconservative or not, can condemn "invading his neighbors." I don't really know what your political philosophy is when invading sovereign nations is a neutral act not worthy of condemnation. Might makes right, I guess.

My lessons from Iraq are the first invasion to liberate Kuwait was justified, the second one (2003) was an unjustified disastrous mistake and had nothing to do with an invasion of a neighbor.

If a bomb falls on Nata's apartment building and kills her I'll blame Putin, not the "New World Order." She wanted Ukraine to join NATO precisely so what is happening now wouldn't happen.

[lester1/2jr]

here is the historical GDP of recent Russia




https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Russias-GDP-1989-2016-in-billions-of-US-dollars-Source-World-Bank_fig1_326972728


Putins first term began in 2000. note the direction of the graph and this is without the other soviet states anymore.

I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

I absolutely would. What is the significance of that?

The invasion of Iraq was wrong that doesn't mean I wanted to live in Iraq under Saddam Hussein or anyone.


Alex -

Either way they had no reason not to join and every reason to want to.

and look where we are now. was it worth it? The Earth is laid out the way it is. Russia is a huge powerful country I am certainly glad we aren't next to them but the US and NATO aren't God. The potential of Eastern European leaders being corrupt is not a good reason for the entire world to await nuclear war. I feel bad for Hong Kong that they are now having to have China take over their country. I love their capitalist ethos and amazing kung fu films which will now be censored in some fashion I'm sure, but China has 1.4 billion people and an a***ole president. This is how its going to go for a while

[Rev. Powell]

I still think that if an American president did what Putin does I think you would be apoplectic.

I absolutely would. What is the significance of that?

The significance is you say this brutal dictator has done a decent job running Russia, accept every one of his statements at face value, and cast all the blame for the conflict on the West. You probably don't realize it, but you come across like a big Putin fan, like Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump. I don't believe you really are, but I think your rhetoric is hurting your own case.

[lester1/2jr]

I'm quite a bit like Tucker Carlson. Is that bad? I also like Ilhan omar

Would also point out that Dmitri Medvedev was president from 2008-2012, elected largely because he kept the graph going in the right direction.

I don't accept any poltician's statement at face value. The idea that Nato expansion would antagonize Russia goes back to the very end of the cold war long before putin's terms

George Kennan on NATO Expansion

Excerpt from George F. Kennan, "A Fateful Error," New York Times, 05 Feb 1997

"Why, with all the hopeful possibilities engendered by the end of the Cold War, should East-West relations become centered on the question of who would be allied with whom and, by implication, against whom in some fanciful, totally unforeseeable and most improbable future military conflict?"

"luntly stated...expanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking ... "

https://comw.org/pda/george-kennan-on-nato-expansion/

[Alex]

I'd say for the countries not being invaded by Russia hell yes it was worth it. I agree, Russia knows that it has a much bigger army. It also knows that NATO's forces are not big enough to threaten it in an invasion. Putin certainly wasn't worried about eastern expansion when he was considering having Russia join it himself.

Then again, as I said before, the whole eastern expansion thing is just a bulls**t excuse for him to do what he was going to do anyway. Shame you are suckered in by it.