Happy Columbus Day!

[ER]

Remember, the North American aboriginals probably would have crossed the Atlantic and pillaged Europe if they could have, so let's hear it for being descended from people with better technology! Yaaaaaaay we got the draw on them!

[RCMerchant]

Fooey. The Vikings got here before the Spanish. And we didn't fvck with the natives for once!
I say 'we' because I'm Norwegian.   For what it's worth.

[Allhallowsday]

I think we had had a long discussion here about Columbus.  He is an important historical figure.  I think he was brave.  I also don't like him.  It's easy 500 years later to have 20/20 hindsight. 

[RCMerchant]

Some folks even think the Chinese got here before the vikings!
I reckon it's possible.

And before that you had all these people-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

[LilCerberus]

I've seen all kinds of PBS specials touting all kinds of eye opening theories from all over the place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories

The big deal about Columbus, was that he proved there was money to be made on the far side...

And yet, for some reason, half the western hemisphere is named after "this" guy;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

[BoyScoutKevin]

Some folks even think the Chinese got here before the vikings!
I reckon it's possible.

And before that you had all these people-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

And not only the Chinese, and I don't know how strong the proof is, but I have seen claims that the . . .
Welsh -- Japanese -- Irish -- and people from the continent of Africa came to North America, sometime before the Vikings.

[Allhallowsday]

Some folks even think the Chinese got here before the vikings!
I reckon it's possible.
And before that you had all these people-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

And not only the Chinese, and I don't know how strong the proof is, but I have seen claims that the . . .
Welsh -- Japanese -- Irish -- and people from the continent of Africa came to North America, sometime before the Vikings.

Well, let's not forget Jesus.  I guess that would be a people from Asia Minor.  Mormons believe it.   

[indianasmith]

The main reason I am skeptical of any prolonged contact between North America and Europe pre-1500's is the Native Americans' complete lack of immunity to European diseases like smallpox and measles; also (in north America, at least) their complete ignorance of some very basic technologies that had been around in Europe for 5000 years or more, like metallurgy and the invention of the wheel.  Those are strong evidences for almost complete cultural isolation pre-1492 (excepting the brief Viking presence in Newfoundland, which has been archeologically documented).

[Allhallowsday]

The main reason I am skeptical of any prolonged contact between North America and Europe pre-1500's is the Native Americans' complete lack of immunity to European diseases like smallpox and measles; also (in north America, at least) their complete ignorance of some very basic technologies that had been around in Europe for 5000 years or more, like metallurgy and the invention of the wheel.  Those are strong evidences for almost complete cultural isolation pre-1492 (excepting the brief Viking presence in Newfoundland, which has been archeologically documented).

But what about the Mormons belief in Jesus in North America?  After the Resurrection.  ..?

[indianasmith]

The main reason I am skeptical of any prolonged contact between North America and Europe pre-1500's is the Native Americans' complete lack of immunity to European diseases like smallpox and measles; also (in north America, at least) their complete ignorance of some very basic technologies that had been around in Europe for 5000 years or more, like metallurgy and the invention of the wheel.  Those are strong evidences for almost complete cultural isolation pre-1492 (excepting the brief Viking presence in Newfoundland, which has been archeologically documented).

But what about the Mormons belief in Jesus in North America?  After the Resurrection.  ..?

Frankly, they are wrong.  There simply is not a shred of archeological evidence that supports ANY of the claims of the Book of Mormon; especially the existence of large, metal-working empires in North America waging war on one another with horses (extinct in North America at the time) and chariots (again, not a single American culture, prior to Columbus, had ever invented the wheel).  All available evidence seems to indicate that Joseph Smith . . . well, there's no kind way to say this: He made the whole thing up.

[Allhallowsday]

The main reason I am skeptical of any prolonged contact between North America and Europe pre-1500's is the Native Americans' complete lack of immunity to European diseases like smallpox and measles; also (in north America, at least) their complete ignorance of some very basic technologies that had been around in Europe for 5000 years or more, like metallurgy and the invention of the wheel.  Those are strong evidences for almost complete cultural isolation pre-1492 (excepting the brief Viking presence in Newfoundland, which has been archeologically documented).

But what about the Mormons belief in Jesus in North America?  After the Resurrection.  ..?

Frankly, they are wrong.  There simply is not a shred of archeological evidence that supports ANY of the claims of the Book of Mormon; especially the existence of large, metal-working empires in North America waging war on one another with horses (extinct in North America at the time) and chariots (again, not a single American culture, prior to Columbus, had ever invented the wheel).  All available evidence seems to indicate that Joseph Smith . . . well, there's no kind way to say this: He made the whole thing up.

Thanks; I'm interested to hear the opinion of a man educated in such matters.  I always thought he was just crazy.   

[ER]

I've a close friend who is LDS, and I have to say they're some of the nicest happiest people I ever met, and through her I've become acquainted with some LDS teachings and even been to a few sites like the Kirtland, Ohio Temple, and have heard some lectures by Wayne May, who is said to be the leading apologist who makes the claim that artifacts and archaeological sites do exist to support The Book of Mormon.

Mostly May tries to assert that the Hopewell civilization was in fact that which Joseph Smith spoke of, and all archaeologists who have studied it over the last two-hundred years have it wrong and it was not a Native American culture that sprung up along the Ohio River valley and its tributaries, but a Jewish one composed of emigrants from 6th century BC Israel. (He has many YouTube videos, some quite interesting and imaginative.)

No matter how much respect I may have for individual LDS and their impressive achievements, I have to go with what Indy wrote, and I think the best counter for Wayne May is not to concentrate on what has been found, which he does, but to focus on what hasn't been found.

Sure he can point to tiny copper smelting undertakings in pre-Columbian times in present-day Michigan and argue that Hopewell earthworks coincide with Smith's timeline in The Book of Mormon, but where are the ruins of cities with towering walls, foundries for working gold and iron? Where are the bones of these large populations, where are the chariots, the horses, the plants he described that were non-native to this hemisphere? Where are the cemeteries for the dead over the millennium Mormon scripture claims Jews lived here in a setting comparable to their relatives back in Israel?

Above all, where is the great city of Zarahemla, which Joseph Smith identified as sitting in Missouri, across from Navoo, Illinois? The BOM describes this as a massive city that stood for centuries in which tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people lived, a city with towers and temples and places of industry, stables of horses, granaries, a palace, training grounds for warriors, schools, wineries, cemeteries, yet not one artifact of this city has ever been found in the site where Smith pointed to it being in front of numerous witnesses?

So it's what is not there to be found that undermines The Book of Mormon moreso than what has been discovered, although the DNA tests that show Native Americans have no blood ties at all to the Middle East are also significant.

[Allhallowsday]

...
Thanks; I'm interested to hear the opinion of a man educated in such matters.  I always thought he was just crazy.   

This could read in an unintentional way... I was referring to Joseph Smith as the "crazy".