I think Im an atheist.

[Flick James]

Actually I was always an antitheist AND an atheist. I don't believe in god (atheist) and am opposed to god (antitheist). And I am not trolling here, these are my actual views of religion. Don't worry, i found "antitheism" on wikipedia a very long time ago. But someone can be an antitheist and still be lieve in god, but I don't.

Okay. You're an atheist. You're not really an atheist but and antitheist. You're an antheist AND and antitheist. You've completely lost my interest. I'm glad you've admitted that you are really out to degrade and humiliate, so thanks for that. You're one of the least liberated people I've ever come across. Good luck in your humiliation. When you realize that it contributes nothing to human progress come see me.

[AndyC]

The assertion that religion destroys liberty is complete hogwash. As I've said, not every religion believes in a Hell, or that otherwise good people will be punished because they didn't follow certain procedures. The idea of free will is important to many, many religions. Humans have reason, we have free will, we make our own choices, and we are responsible for them. Even the fire-and-brimstone people believe that, or they wouldn't be so strict. Some religions aim to control through fear, but many others simply offer a value system that their members embrace of their own free will because they believe it is the right way to live, that it is good for them, that it is the best way for them to interact with those around them.

I personally agree with you, vukxfiles, that if God created us just to worship and obey him, keep him company and earn rewards or punishment, that does make us pets, and it is a very pathetic and pointless reason for sentient, free-willed beings to exist. But not every adherent of every religion believes that. I would say most believe we're meant for more than that. And even among Christians, not everyone necessarily believes in an anthropomorphic God who takes a direct interest in our affairs or reasons the way we do. And that's where many antireligious arguments fall flat. They attack specific beliefs that aren't universally held, and are not essential to spiritual belief. At best, they are arguments against certain religious institutions, but not against religion itself. Human spirituality can take many forms.

I don't think your problem is with religion so much as it is with anyone trying to tell you what to do, and possibly some deep-seated feelings of powerlessness and low self-esteem. Sorry, but unwritten moral and ethical rules are the way of things, even in a secular society. The idea that laws are the only rules that should matter is about as shortsighted as it is selfish. The world is a much better place when people are motivated by more than fear of prosecution or lawsuits, when they do something simply because it's the right thing to do, and avoid doing something that might well be legal because they believe it's wrong. Look at the worst practices of the corporate world, and you'll see a culture limited only by what the law will allow.

[vukxfiles]

You guys should know that I'm from Bosnia so my english isnt as perfect as yours. So sometimes I don't articulate my thoughts correctly, thats why I said "I'm not an atheist, but antitheist" when I wanted to say "I'm not so much of an atheist as I am an antitheist".

Anyway, I am fully aware that spirituality is very diverse and most of it has nothing to do with what i hate about religion, but just the thought of obeying something and worshipping it and prayer is to me bulls**t. I hate it because it requires yourself to put your individuality on a lesser level than the thing that is being worshipped, and I am the most important thing in my life. I am the center of my life, not some spiritual deity that has nothing to do with ME. And I am not narcissistic, but I don't want to be submissive. Submission and letting someone manipulate with you instead of listening to yourself is the most evil thing in the world.

[AndyC]

I am the most important thing in my life. I am the center of my life, not some ..... that has nothing to do with ME.

All discussion of religion aside, I don't know whether to be disgusted or saddened by that. I'm done with this thread. Please, get some help.

[vukxfiles]

I am the most important thing in my life. I am the center of my life, not some ..... that has nothing to do with ME.

All discussion of religion aside, I don't know whether to be disgusted or saddened by that. I'm done with this thread. Please, get some help.

Why be disgusted, is it a bad thing to care about your own life, and hate everything that tries to stop you from being yourself?

[BTM]

I'm late to the discussion, so I'll just say this.

I think "agnostic" is where I fall as well.  I've gone from being an atheist interesting in the mystical and the paranormal, to a devout Charismatic Christian to agnostic.  It's quite an interesting story, I suppose, but I won't get into the details here.

I personally would love to believe there's an afterlife and/or some sort of balancing system to the universe like karma or something, where good is rewarded and evil punished (even if not in a clear cut, hammer you on the head way), but I just don't know, and so many of the things I've read about seen cast a lot of doubt the whole concept.  

On the one hand, I really don't care for people of ANY religion who seem to arrogantly (and gleefully) claim that, "Hey, you don't believe the way I do, you're going to hell!" On the other, I'm not out to destroy the faith of others or declare the concept of religion to be a bad idea.  People want to site things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and various wars and stuff as "proof" that religion, but I'd say such things happen not because of religion but because of man's desire to control man, and people like that will use ANY tool at their disposal to achieve that goal.

Anyway.. back to the regular broadcast.

[vukxfiles]

I'm late to the discussion, so I'll just say this.

I think "agnostic" is where I fall as well.  I've gone from being an atheist interesting in the mystical and the paranormal, to a devout Charismatic Christian to agnostic.  It's quite an interesting story, I suppose, but I won't get into the details here.

I personally would love to believe there's an afterlife and/or some sort of balancing system to the universe like karma or something, where good is rewarded and evil punished (even if not in a clear cut, hammer you on the head way), but I just don't know, and so many of the things I've read about seen cast a lot of doubt the whole concept.  

On the one hand, I really don't care for people of ANY religion who seem to arrogantly (and gleefully) claim that, "Hey, you don't believe the way I do, you're going to hell!" On the other, I'm not out to destroy the faith of others or declare the concept of religion to be a bad idea.  People want to site things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and various wars and stuff as "proof" that religion, but I'd say such things happen not because of religion but because of man's desire to control man, and people like that will use ANY tool at their disposal to achieve that goal.

Anyway.. back to the regular broadcast.

And those individuals that use religion as a tool aren't to blame, stupid sheep masses are to blame because they let themselves be manipulated. I actually congradulate the peron who succeeds in manipulating a lot of people, because he shows just how stupid and irrational people are when they are in a mass.

[Flick James]

vukxfiles,

If you're so concerned about distancing yourself from people with views contrary to your own, then why are you even entering into the discussion? There are people here that want to have a meaningful discussion where some form of understanding can be gained. You are contributing NOTHING to that endeavor. And so, from what I can see, virtually everybody involved would like you to stop. But clearly you don't respect that. So really? What are you hoping to gain from persisting with this vitriolic bulls**t?

I have no problem with your beliefs, vukxfiles. I never have. My problem is that you have repeatedly demonstrated a seething hatred that suggests some serious issues. You've attempted to portray youself as open-minded and enlightened, when that's the last thing you have demonstrated. Despite that, and I'm not being sarcastic in any way, I do really hope you are able to find some peace in your life.

[JaseSF]

No matter how hard you might try or want it to be so, you cannot dictate to others what to believe. That is the choice of the individual. If one doesn't believe in God, I can't see why he/she should be so concerned that others choose to do so (unless one wants to create some form of dictactorship and sees religion as a threat to control). Why should someone who doesn't even believe in a deity want to go to war with one?! or others who do? For what, to enforce or exercise control over others that deep down no one can ever truly fully possess?

[indianasmith]

Well, Vuk, thanks for answering my question.  I find you to be a rather sad person.  You see, I know my own limits.  I know my capacity for evil and hypocrisy, and while I try to overcome those things in my daily life, in the end I find it very comforting to know that there is One out there who is perfect.  And I can love and worship Him  for achieving that perfection which forever eludes me.

If I understand you right, you believe there is nothing greater than yourself.  And, by your own admission, you are a person filled with hatred and rage for everyone who believes as I do.  Therefore, in your world, there is nothing greater than hatred and rage.

Regardless of whether you ever accept any form of deity, I cannot help but feel pity for someone who inhabits such a miserable, hate-filled world.  I hope you find some form of peace and love eventually.

[The Gravekeeper]

I came across this crazy idea a while ago while catching up on the buzz among my pagan community, and I think it's an idea that holds true no matter what your beliefs or lack thereof: To be hateful is to build your own prison. Over time, hate can come to restrict you from seeing new opportunities and ideas, and can come to define how others identify you. Hate just isn't healthy.

[indianasmith]

"Love makes you crazy, hate makes you impotent.  Somewhere between the two, you can survive."

[AndyC]

"Love makes you crazy, hate makes you impotent.  Somewhere between the two, you can survive."

Somebody should hit you with a frying pan for that cheesy reference, Cousin Paddy.

[Newt]

I'm a historian by trade.  No past event can be scientifically proven to have happened before the age of photography.  All we have go on for most historical events is that ""it was stated in an old book." 

Seems an odd thing for an archeologist to say.

[indianasmith]

I see what you mean, Newt - events leave physical traces, sometimes.  But many do not.  The limits of archeology can be frustrating at times.  Archeologically speaking, we can prove that the battle of Gettysburg happened, but just going by the traces in the ground, we cannot prove who won.  And the Gettysburg address?  From the archeological perspective, it might as well have never happened.  Iknow in my field of Native American archeology, where there is NO written language to go from, once you go past the actual historic record, you cannot prove something as basic as tribal names, heroes, religion, or even what language they spoke.  The further back some event is, the harder it is to prove by archeology alone.  So I'll stand by my original statement - for many ancient historical events, all we can cite to prove it is descriptions found in ancient books.