Loose Change (2005?)

[Derf]

In regard to people blindly following one theory or another whether the evidence supports it or not, I've been putting words to something I've noticed for years now; it's still difficult to communicate fully, but, in a nutshell (no squirrel puns intended), people are either too willing to believe an authority figure or too willing to disbelieve an authority figure. As has been mentioned, some people want to believe the government's story as being the only truth regarding 9/11. Some people, not trusting the government, want to disbelieve reports so badly that they will trust only theories that put the blame on the current administration. Reality seldom lies in any one report, even in an eyewitness account. If a building were burning and in danger of collapse, would a person in close proximity to that building be of a mindset to perceive details clearly? Probably not, since he/she would be mostly wanting to get away from the danger. Noises and sights can be exaggerated by fear/anxiety, so that any loud noise becomes "explosives" planted by the government. I've read some of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, including the Popular Mechanics article debunking most of the theories (incidentally, the magazine was bombarded with hate mail after that article, condemning it for being a government stooge and reporting only the party line). Like most of you, I won't claim to know what happened, because I wasn't there. I cannot see the U.S. government destroying the WTC, simply because I can't believe anyone would do that here. I am appalled to hear reports of dictators killing their own people around the world, and I know this sort of thing happens, but I can't see the benefit of murdering thousands of people as happened on that day. Perhaps I am naive, but the possible consequences if the plot were uncovered far outweigh any political agenda. And as ulthar points out, a conspiracy this big would be difficult to cover up; someone would crack and talk if the theories were true.

Whooo, that's a big nutshell. Good thing I'm a big nut. This doesn't cover all that I wanted to say, but if anyone gets through this ramble, I'll be surprised.

[Mofo Rising]

Well, told purely from the POV of the mechanics of the towers collapsing, I recommend the Nova documentary Why the Towers Fell.  It's the official line, but it does a good job of not multiplying entities.

Do I think the current American government would orchestrate the attacks?  No, that's monstrous.  Do I think they would ignore or cover-up inconsistencies that don't fit the official line?  Highly probable.  Would they take advantage of the fear and confusion of Americans to further entrench their power base and profit margins?  No doubt about it.

[ulthar]

Do I think the current American government would orchestrate the attacks? No, that's monstrous. Do I think they would ignore or cover-up inconsistencies that don't fit the official line? Highly probable. Would they take advantage of the fear and confusion of Americans to further entrench their power base and profit margins? No doubt about it.

Man Mofo, that is right on the money.  Each person has their own pet example of that last statement: mine is the TSA.  What a colossal screw up.

[Jim H]

Say for a moment that the conspiracy is more or less true.  That they managed the biggest hoax of all-time like that, with such large amounts of evidence supporting it, and in the process caused that much damage and killed about 3,000 people.  And despite that, there is still scant evidence it exists and no one has come forward about it.

If that is the case, the group who did it is so immense and influential it is extremely unlikely we'd ever be able to do much of anything about it, except perhaps through blind luck.  

[ulthar]

If that is the case, the group who did it is so immense and influential it is extremely unlikely we'd ever be able to do much of anything about it, except perhaps through blind luck.

Cue references to about 16,000 bad movie plots.  :)

[Scott]

Movie Plot:

Just image the fear level in the highest places if all our goverment officials were compromised through sex rings, so that they have to cooperate, and the fear level of those with pensions and the death threats to families of lifetime public servants. With the goverment being nothing more than a white anglo-saxon mafia and our taxes are simply protection money.

Also who's to say that another goverment didn't set up the attack on 911. Say the Russians, Isreali's, French, Chinese, Saudi's, etc..They pay some Islamic cleric to encite their followers and the cleric gets paid millions by some rouge faction of some goverment.

[Derf]

Fewer than two dozen men (15? I forget) were unable to keep their mouths shut in the Watergate coverup, despite the fact that confession meant toppling a president they were completely loyal to and the fact that jail time was a certainty, as well as loss of face and career. And yet they couldn't keep it covered up for two weeks. Would it really be possible to cover a conspiracy ast large as the WTC "bombing" for this long? Even if it was only the government playing on fears to bolster itself after the attacks (yes, I know this happened, but not to my knowledge in any manner that might truly be called a conspiracy), wouldn't someone become another Deep Throat? Almost certainly. I do not agree with this administration on many points (in this context, I primarily disagree with the whole "Homeland Security" idea that is dragging us down the road toward communism/dictatorship faster than anything in the past century--with the possible exception of our education system, which seems hell-bent on turning out good little worker bees to feed the government/education elite at the expense of free thought). I do not, however, see much evidence for any conspiracy on a b-movie level, as Scott just proposed. At heart, I'm an anarchist (just leave me alone and keep the heck off my lawn, you punks!), albeit one who recognizes the necessity of government and who languishes in the knowledge that without a recognized government, people would quickly become extinct out of sheer belligerence.

[Ash]

Derf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fewer than two dozen men (15? I forget) were
> unable to keep their mouths shut in the Watergate
> coverup, despite the fact that confession meant
> toppling a president they were completely loyal to
> and the fact that jail time was a certainty, as
> well as loss of face and career. And yet they
> couldn't keep it covered up for two weeks. Would
> it really be possible to cover a conspiracy ast
> large as the WTC "bombing" for this long?

Pardon my French but...

No f**kin' way!
I tend to throw all that conspiracy theory s**t right out the window.
The secret could not be kept.  Period.
You know it and I know it.

I gotta side with Derf here.

[Scott]

Look at Watergate. These supposed bumblers got caught by a night watchman (one of them I know for certain could have taken care of that situation). Think about it. These "failures" may have served a purpose.

I'm not saying this has happened, but there are ways to control all the key people in any conspiracy.

[ulthar]

there are ways to control all the key people in any conspiracy.

Nah.  As the Watergate night watchman example helps to demonstrate, you cannot plan/think of everything.  There is chance.

Eyewitnesses? You have to control them, too.  There were a LOT of people NOT INVOLVED WITH GOVT who witnessed the events of 9/11.  This is not Men In Black where someone can just go around erasing everyone's memory.

Conspiracies like this are 'fun' (I guess) to talk about, but the way some people are rabid about it is just disconnected from reality.  I said above, and I still believe, that it is fair to ask the questions.  But, as good old Jules says, if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions.

[Scott]

Sounds like loose change to me.

[Scott]

"Eyewitnesses? You have to control them, too. There were a LOT of people NOT INVOLVED WITH GOVT who witnessed the events of 9/11."

Many times witnesses simply don't know what they are looking at and when alternatives are reinforced in different ways people tend to believe what they are told because it "makes sense" and works into what fragile or pre-occupied minds can only except.

For people in high power senerios like the ones we have lightly  talked about above would simply be a parlor game for them where even the President is a pawn.

"This is not Men In Black where someone can just go around erasing everyone's memory".

And beyond that............ "they" have access to the latest technologies. Who's to say you are even thinking your own thoughts.

Speaking purely in terms of movie plots of course

[Derf]

Okay, nobody look at Scott--he may have his own flashy-thingy

[raj]

I'm not thinking my own thoughts?  Alright, who's got my thoughts.  I want them back.

[Scott]