Villain Tribute...(Update)

[loyal1]

Here is an update of the Villain Tribute.   Please select your top 20 (no matter where they fall on the list) and your least favorite 20.  If there is still a villain you still believe is worthy to be added, by all means voice your opinion.  Thanks for all your help with the project thus far!

Undebated List:
Dr Hannibal Lecter (Silence of the Lambs)
HAL (2001: A Space Odyssey)
Frank Booth (Blue Velvet)
Alexander Sebastian (Notorious)
Gregory Anton (Gaslight)
Alex Forrest (Fatal Attraction)
Phantom of the Opera (Lon Chaney)
Mr. Hyde (Fredric March)
Michael Corleone (Godfather II)
Nurse Ratched (One Flew Over the Cukoos Nest)
Diana Christensen (Network)
Keyser Söze (The usual Suspects)
Brett Gordon (The Hustler)
Regina Giddens (The Little Foxes)
Tony Comonte (Scareface)
Eve Harrington (All About Eve)
Annie Wilkes (Misery)
Professor Henry Jarrod (Vincent Price-House of Wax)
Dr. Szell (Marathon Man)
Henry (Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer)
Mrs. Danvers (Rebeca)
Max Cady (Cape Fear-Robert mitchum)
Darth Vader (Empire Strikes Back)
Wicked Witch of the West (Wizard of Oz)
Minnie and Roman Castevet (Rosemary's Baby)


Debated/Questioned:
Norman Bates (Psycho)
Harry Lime (The Third Man)
Phyllis Dietrichson (Double Indemnity)
Lex Luther (Gene Hackman-Superman)
Joan Crawford (Mommie Dearest)
Alex De Large (A Clockwork Orange)
Otto West (A Fish Called Wanda)
General Jack D Ripper (Dr. Strangelove)
Captain Bligh (Mutiny on the Bounty)
Baby Jane Hudson (What Ever Happened to Baby Jane)
Norma Desmond (Sunset Blvd)
ReganMacNeil‘s demons (Exorsist)
Jason Vorhees (Friday the 13th)
Pennywise (It)
Michael Myers (Halloween)
Freddy Kruggar (Nightmare on Elm Street)
Leatherface (Texas Chainsaw Massacre-Gunner Hansen)
Agent Smith (The Matrix)
Count Dracula (Bela Lagosi)
The Alien (Alien)
Jaws
The Terminator
Gill-Man (Creature From the Black Lagoon)

Taken Off List
Carrie White (Carrie)
Lina Lamont (Singing in the Rain)

New Additions: (Mentioned more than once by other’s contributions)
John Ryder (The Hitcher)
Hans Gruber (Die Hard)
John Doe (Se7en)
Antonio Salieri (Amadeus)
Goldfinger
Amon Goeth (Schindler's List)
Colonel Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)
Lars Thorwald (Rear Window)
The Queen (Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs)
Maj. Strasser (Casablanca)
Toht (Raiders of the Lost Ark)
The Joker (Jack Nicholson) (Batman)
Frog One (Fernando Rey) (The French Connection)
Johnny Friendly (On The Waterfront)
Guy Woodhouse (Rosemary’s Baby)
Mrs. Iselin (Angela Lansbury) (The Manchurian Candidate)
Van Dyke (James Mason - North by Northwest)
Cody Jarrett (White Heat)
Count Orlock (Nosferatu - 1922)
Dr. Moreau (Island of Lost Souls 1933)
Harry Reikle (Christopher Plummer) (The Silent Partner)
Rhoda Penmark (The Bad Seed - 1956)
The Devil’s Rejects
Boris Karloff  (Bodysnatcher1943)
Mr. Potter (It's a Wonderful Life)
Jaws (The Spy Who Loved Me)
Lady Sylvia Marsh (Lair of the Whit Worm)
Jerry Dandrige (Fright Night)
Bill. (Kill Bill)
Zed (Pulp Fiction)
The Kurgen from the original Highlander.
Ian MacKellen as Richard III in "Richard III
Tilda Swinton as the White Witch in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe."

[Ash]

Ming the Merciless!


Klytus I'm bored...what plaything can you offer me today?

[The Burgomaster]

You have quite a comprehensive list.  However, I acnnot agree with the following 2 choices:

Carrie White (Carrie)
Regan MacNeil (Exorsist)

I think these characters are victims rather than villains.

What about:

* The mountain men from DELIVERANCE

* The gang of killers from LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT

* Goldfinger

* "Frog One" from THE FRENCH CONNECTION

* Frank Renda (Al Letteiri) from MR. MAJESTYK

* Christopher Plummer's character in THE SILENT PARTNER

. . . just to name a few.

[ulthar]

Just a couple of quick questions:

(1) How is Jaws a 'villian?'  I don't think it had 'evil' intent, or any other intent except eat.

(2) Captain Bligh may not have really been a villain, either.  His behavior aboard ship was no different than any other Capt. of that time.  After court martial, it was the crew that was found guilty of mutiny, and they were hunted down in the South Pacific to be hung.  Even in the Hollywood portrayals of the story, he was not "that bad."  Christian and some of the petty officers were troublemakers, and likely would have mutineed under any captain in those circumstances.

[loyal1]

This list is not final and I am glad there is some argument to some, for it helps with the project.  I too had a problem with the very two you mention interestingly enough...although some disagreed with me.  As for Reghan, it isn't her but the demons who are the true villians, that can easily be changed, but Carrie is different.  We sympathize with her and in the end is was more about justice/revenge and being fed up than being a villian.  She may have to be removed from the list.

Ot of curiousity...in the list you came up with, which villians do you feel are important to add from a cinema historical point of view and which are your personal favs (or both)

Thanks for your help.

~Leila

[loyal1]

Uthar~

"(1) How is Jaws a 'villian?' I don't think it had 'evil' intent, or any other intent except eat."

You have to admit that Jaws is not like any typical shark.  He is a monster really...and like Count Dracula, or the Blob, or the creature from the black lagoon...it is in their nature so is it really a choice?  Is their nature truly evil if they can't help it?  He was a man eating shark who hunted after his prey...man.  So is a villian what we fear?  Or should it be more complicated than that?  These arguments are great for the project and glad you pointed them out.

""(2) Captain Bligh may not have really been a villain, either. His behavior aboard ship was no different than any other Capt. of that time. After court martial, it was the crew that was found guilty of mutiny, and they were hunted down in the South Pacific to be hung. Even in the Hollywood portrayals of the story, he was not "that bad." Christian and some of the petty officers were troublemakers, and likely would have mutineed under any captain in those circumstances"

You do have a valid point here.  I suppose he is considered a villian (not just by some but even voted one of the best villians of all time in AFI.)  Maybe it is Tyrranical rule.  I really have a tough time believing he did all he did for the good of the men and the ship or even his country.  I believe his motivation was power and superiority.  In Les Miserables, even though the officer followed the law, does not make him a saint.  He had other motives, and an inhuman quality about him where there is no forgiveness or empathy or kindness.  It was black and white.  I feel Captain Bligh is of the same fiber.  I truly don't think Capt Bligh wanted these men hunted down and hung because they broke the law or were guilty of mutiny by their courts, he had another agenda where his pride was hurt and know one messes with him or his rule and if they do, they will most surely pay.  It was personal, just like in Les Miserables.

[ulthar]

loyal1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  I really have
> a tough time believing he did all he did for the
> good of the men and the ship or even his country.
> I believe his motivation was power and
> superiority.  In Les Miserables, even though the
> officer followed the law, does not make him a
> saint.  He had other motives, and an inhuman
> quality about him where there is no forgiveness or
> empathy or kindness.  It was black and white.  I
> feel Captain Bligh is of the same fiber.  I truly
> don't think Capt Bligh wanted these men hunted
> down and hung because they broke the law or were
> guilty of mutiny by their courts, he had another
> agenda where his pride was hurt and know one
> messes with him or his rule and if they do, they
> will most surely pay.  It was personal, just like
> in Les Miserables.

Um, yes and no, I suppose.  Bligh was motivated by a number of personal factors that stemmed largely from his presence at/role in Cook's death.  In short, he DID feel he had something to prove, and his worth as an officer (Bligh is remembered historically as one of the greatest seaman/navigators to have ever lived) was, in his mind, never fully acknowledged by his peers.

But that does not change the fact that as far as ship Captains go, Bligh was BY FAR not the most tyranical - there were the so-called 'flogging Captains' and those that ruled as "right Tartars."  These Captains did seem to derive a sadistic joy from the ruling, and beating, of others.

If you'd like to see a glimpse into Bligh's character, I suggest the book "Bligh's Portable Nightmare."  It does not deal much with the mutiny itself, but rather with the aftermath (his 4000 nm sail across the Pacific in an open boat) and gives some good insight into who Bligh was.  He had some major insecurities over guilt about Cook and his treatment by the admiralty, but I don't think it was fair to say he took pleasure in belittling others.

[loyal1]

You have me intrigued.  I own Mutiny on the bounty and haven't seen in a couple of years.  Will watch again.  I will most definitly look into the book you recommended...sounds interesting.  On another note, Capt Bligh is one of my favorite characters in film history.  I have nothing bad to say about Charles Laughton's performance, in fact I think he nailed it so finely that it is tough to see anyone else portraying that role.

Capt. Bligh along with Carrie White is now in question on the list of villians.

[ulthar]

One more comment:

" I truly
> don't think Capt Bligh wanted these men hunted
> down and hung because they broke the law or were
> guilty of mutiny by their courts, he had another
> agenda where his pride was hurt and know one
> messes with him or his rule and if they do, they
> will most surely pay. It was personal, just like
> in Les Miserables. "

To hunt the mutineers down was not Blight's decision, it was the Law of the day.  Mutiny was a capital crime, and there were no exceptions: if you were found guilty of mutiny (by a Navy court, with a rather strong bias toward the Officers in general) and caught, you were executed.  No appeal, no second chance.

In short, Blight himself could have argued AGAINST the men being hunted and executed, and it would not have mattered.  His personal opinion was immaterial.

[loyal1]

That fact would not have affected the decision in whether or not someone is a villian.  It is the motives, no matter what the law states.  You can follow all the laws, but you may do it to fulfill another purpose.  For example, an exucutioner doing his job and never oversteps the law in the situation, but his true love and passion is not because the law accepts it as so, that is only coincidence.  He could have a sadistic desire of death and to kill.  No exceptions, you broke the law and the law says you die, then he will perform his job with pleasure.  Or someone could be an executioner out of principle and for the good of society as a whole, and sees his job in another light that does not necessarily give him positive gratifaction in death soley for the purpose of death and having control over somene's life...and the ending of it.

To me law means nothing, or the time, or what you are suppose to be...it is the true intentions behind the mask...for Robin Hood broke the law, but considered a hero for his reasons and intentions.

[Ed, Ego and Superego]

I disagee with Carrie White, definite victim.  The evil popular chick, yes.  My vote for villian is:
Dr. Christian 'The White Angel' Szell - Marathon Man
"Is it zafe?"
0-d

[loyal1]

Oh the thought makes me clench my teeth together...man that was brutal.

[Derf]

A couple I would add:

Rhoda Penmark (The Bad Seed - 1956 version w/Oscar-nominated performance by Patricia McCormack)

The Boys' Choir (or maybe almost everybody in The Lord of the Flies - 1963)

These are two of the most frightening films I recall from my youth.

I would also add (for some of the more fun villains):

Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (The Fifth Element)

Jareth the Goblin King (Labyrinth)

Evil Genius (Time Bandits)

[ulthar]

I don't think Bligh himself was part of the group that hunted down the mutineers.  After the courts martial, he was assigned a governorship in Australia, iirc.

The central question is "was Bligh a villain?"  In my mind, he was not, but I certainly see that Hollywood has portrayed him that way.  Bligh gained notoriety because his crew mutineed, but he was not the only ship's commander to have a mutiny.  In some of those cases, the commander was FAR more a villian than Bligh; indeed, in many cases where there was no mutiny, the commander was FAR more villainous than Bligh.

His infamy, and the subsequent Hollywood fixation with him as a 'villian' is somewhat of a historical mystery.  If you do choose to classify him a villian, he must at least be given the status of "sympathetic villian," since much of his circumstance was beyond his control (for example, he really had nothing to do with Cook's death - Cook was killed by cannibals in Fiji - but Bligh felt he should have done more; this guilt perhaps led him to be a harsher commander than he otherwise would have been, but there is no historical record supporting that the real William Bligh was a "villain").  The REAL villain on HMAV Bounty was one of the warrant officers who really did relish the idea of hurting those around him (I cannot recall which, possibly John Fryer?), as he instigated a lot of the ill-will between Christian and Bligh and purposefully provoked Bligh on many occasions.

We note that Bligh's flogging rate was substantially BELOW average for the British Fleet at that time and in some cases was known to flog deserters when the law supported execution.  In this, he had the reputation of being an LENIENT commander, not a tyrant.  Bligh was vocally critical of the men (and officers), but verbal harranguing was not uncommon, either.

Couple of interesting sites:

http://www.lareau.org/bounty.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher_Christian (where we note that much of the malignity of Bligh's character is attributed to one of Christian's relatives).

At the very least, it is an interesting debate.  Just what defines a 'villain'?  In my view, you've hit upon the perfect case-study for this question.

[loyal1]

As in the case of Captain Bligh, you have a lot more knowledge than I on the character and the man himself.  I know little of him than what I have seen portrayed on the silver screen, and my judgement mainly from that and that alone.

However the question of what classifies a villian is very interesting.  Should we classify types of villians?  Can villian's have sympathy or must they be purely and inherantly evil?  We can take Batman villians for instance.  It seems that most if not all were very human and we could understand what turned them to spite and vengence.  I do like a villian that is more complex...like Dr. Hannibal Lecter.  As evil and sadistic as he can be, there is another side to him that we are very much attracted to. I am sure I would not be saying that if he was eating my brains from my skull, but I think you understand what I mean.

Then we have the other argument of monsters that were created.  For instance I have a hard time with Frankenstein being the true villian, I would rather blame his creator.  Or what of those monsters just born that way?  The blob and Jaws and the Gill-Man are not very complex.  

You definitly have my thinking cap on with this Uthar lol.

Thanks for your input, well more, intelligent contribution.