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Him
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« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2007, 03:14:01 PM »

Are you digging this up again ...

Please from PMSNBC ... yeah no agenda there.

Micheal Moore loves the attention, he's a narcissistic weeble that won't fall down. He wants the anti Moore site (Moorewatch) there up and running, it's great PR; it's the old adage bad press is better no press. If this was an anonymous donation then how do we know about it? People make anonymous gifts all the time and it never LEAKS out, this is nothing more than a calculated move by Moore to get free PR for his film. Isn't it odd that this info came to light at the same time his little movie hit the theaters, no not that odd at all since it was likely planned that way.

All the free press easily justifies the $12K so called "anonymous donation." Man don't be so gullible.

I didn't bring this thread back up. Someone else did.

and the point is the irony. A guy sets up an anti-Michael Moore site, and then has to shut it down to pay his wife's overwelming medical bills. Medical bills that he wouldn't have if the United States had universal healthcare.

And you are the one who is gullible. Universal healthcare would put HMO's and other health insurance companies out of buisness. These companies make large donations to politicians in exchange for giving the American people alot of bullsh!t reasons why Universal Healthcare shouldn't happen. And you buy it. Hook, line and sinker.
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ghouck
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« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2007, 03:46:12 PM »

Quote
and the point is the irony. A guy sets up an anti-Michael Moore site, and then has to shut it down to pay his wife's overwelming medical bills. Medical bills that he wouldn't have if the United States had universal healthcare.

Yea, it'd be paid by that MAGIC MONEY, the stuff that comes out of thin air, so NOBODY would have to pay ANYTHING.

Quote
And you are the one who is gullible.

Apparently you believe gullible means "To see a system fail elsewhere for others, and see no reason it would be sucessful for ourselves."

Gullible is when someone finds out someone like MM makes an "anonymous donation" that miraculesly becomes public, and still believes there was no alterior motive.
Gullible is when a person thinks the U.S. Government can do something more efficiently and effectively than private businesses.
Gullible is when a person believes they know who is seeking medical attention, and for what and why, after only being to the doctor twice in the last decade.
Gullible is believing that paying for something through taxes would be LESS costly than paying for it outright.
Gullible is believing providing free healthcare would NOT bring more patients to the doctors, and that it would NOT be for more frivolous reasons.
Gullible is believing that a Government entity would be better at keeping the healthcare industry honest an in check than a private person with a vested intrest.

Socialism doesn't work very well. . .
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indianasmith
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« Reply #92 on: July 31, 2007, 03:57:10 PM »

Here's another thought . . . .

one of the worst things about ALL entitilement programs is that once created, they are eternal.  You cannot ever reduce or discontinue them without being branded as a heartless fascist who wants to kill old people and children.

Suppose we enacted socialized medicine and found that it was not to our taste - that the quality of care really did diminish, and the waiting periods lengthened, and our medical profession was taken over by a bunch of foreigners of dubious motivations, whom we could not even understand?  In other words, if all the negative predictions came true?

We couldn't get rid of it.  The minute anyone tried, the media would blanket us with interviews with passionate liberal activists screaming about how anyone who wanted to take away our system of FREE health care just wants the sick and elderly to die, doesn't care about minorities, the environment, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.  In other words, we would be stuck with this thing forever.

Forgive my skepticism, but I am just not that eager to embrace a system that has so many unanswered questions hanging over it.  True love is fleeting, goverment programs are forever!
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« Reply #93 on: July 31, 2007, 04:06:42 PM »

That's very true, and another place where America's "if it doesn't work, throw more money at it" reputation comes from. It's nearly impossible to go backwards, , so, , which way do we go?

 
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #94 on: July 31, 2007, 04:12:16 PM »

I was watching "Ice Road Truckers" the other night and it's in Canada, eh. Well long story short one of the Trucker had to go to the hospital for an abdominal injury. And Moore sites Canada as one of the magical universal health care systems where it free for every Tom, Dick and caribou. This Canadian trucker in Canada got a bill for C$21,000.00 which just about wiped out his earning thus far, so my question is if universal health care is that great, why did this guy get a $21K bill in a tax paid so called free system?

Again you are jumping out of the frying pan into the fire to trade private health care to a government ran system.
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Him
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« Reply #95 on: July 31, 2007, 04:22:22 PM »



Apparently you believe gullible means "To see a system fail elsewhere for others, and see no reason it would be sucessful for ourselves."

Gullible is when someone finds out someone like MM makes an "anonymous donation" that miraculesly becomes public, and still believes there was no alterior motive.
Gullible is when a person thinks the U.S. Government can do something more efficiently and effectively than private businesses.
Gullible is when a person believes they know who is seeking medical attention, and for what and why, after only being to the doctor twice in the last decade.
Gullible is believing that paying for something through taxes would be LESS costly than paying for it outright.
Gullible is believing providing free healthcare would NOT bring more patients to the doctors, and that it would NOT be for more frivolous reasons.
Gullible is believing that a Government entity would be better at keeping the healthcare industry honest an in check than a private person with a vested intrest.

Socialism doesn't work very well. . .

You need to turn off that Rush Limbaugh and start getting yourself some real facts and use your own brain.

Universal Healthcare works. It's working right now in several other Nations including, the UK, France, Canada and Japan. All 4 of those nations have higher life expectancies than the United States, and they don't have anywhere near the amount of problems with their system as we have with ours.

Taxes are cheaper because everyones money is placed into the pot. That includes the extremely wealthy who would end up paying the lion's share thus reducing the cost for everyone else. There would be more money availiable to use. The only money a private insurance company has available are the premiums from its customers. Because the super rich don't need health insurance, and because everyone's premium is the same regardless of what they make, their is limited money to use. Thus insurance companies have to think of excuses to reject claims. Either that or raise everyones premiums to a level that is already greater than the taxes they would pay under a Universal Healthcare system.

The amount of money middle class parents pay in taxes for public schools is far less than what they would pay to send their kids to private schools.

And the only vested interest a CEO has is putting more money into his or her pocket. Remember Enron?
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ghouck
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« Reply #96 on: July 31, 2007, 04:47:18 PM »

Quote
You need to turn off that Rush Limbaugh and start getting yourself some real facts and use your own brain.

I'll take your need to turn to insult as evidence you're irretrievably wrong.

I have done research, Thank you for your list of half-truths. You're idea that the rich would pay more for the same service is laughable at best, especially since the politicians that make those decisions fall into that category. You're comparison between public school and private school proves that you expect a system with lower standards.
Your straw-man arguement about CEO is as transparent as it gets, I never mentioned CEO performing this task. "Private person" is the key word you ignored.

If you're not going to be honest, I have no further stake in educating you. Goodbye.
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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

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Him
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« Reply #97 on: July 31, 2007, 06:01:44 PM »


^In otherwords, your argument is too weak to continue.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2007, 06:57:24 PM »

The amount of money middle class parents pay in taxes for public schools is far less than what they would pay to send their kids to private schools.

And where do they get a better education? Public or Private?

Now apply that to health care.
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Jim H
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« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2007, 02:05:27 PM »

The amount of money middle class parents pay in taxes for public schools is far less than what they would pay to send their kids to private schools.

And where do they get a better education? Public or Private?

Now apply that to health care.

I'd say that depends on the district.  I know some of the private schools around where I grew up had and still have inferior education to the public in that area.  The Catholic schools in my area, for instance, while they gave out a lot more homework, the actual quality of education was worse (well, from my point of view of what they were learning, it's pretty subjective). 

Were some of the most expensive, extremely elite private schools better?  Well, they had a larger variety of classes, and better teacher-to-student ratios than most public high schools (though not my second public high school, which averaged 10 students per teacher), so I guess so, but it wasn't an enormous difference.

However, I lived outside Detroit, in a fairly affluent suburb, and inside of Detroit the public schools AND private schools were mostly awful.  I'd say the lesson there is the financially well off are just giving themselves better education regardless of the type of system they do it in.

In any case, there's an important distinction between the way each system is paid, since public schools are paid largely by local property taxes (meaning the rich areas get the best funding), and a national health care system would be paid into by everyone and output to everyone.

Quote
Gullible is when a person thinks the U.S. Government can do something more efficiently and effectively than private businesses.

You really don't think the US government can do ANYTHING better than private business?  In other words, you think the government shouldn't, say, insure banks or control transportation systems and the military anymore since private business could do a better job of it?

Quote
Gullible is believing that paying for something through taxes would be LESS costly than paying for it outright.

It's not inherently less, it just has the possibility to be less - as it is in other countries.  You can't deny they pay far less for health care per person than America does.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2007, 03:25:29 PM »

Quote from: Jim H
I know some of the private schools around where I grew up had and still have inferior education to the public in that area ... (well, from my point of view of what they were learning, it's pretty subjective).
 

If that is the case, I feel you will find that more the extreme exception, than the rule. I find it difficult to believe a tuition based private school would survive in the educational marketplace if taxed funded educational institution was superior.

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Jim H
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« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2007, 07:13:43 PM »

Probably my area was exceptional, I will admit..  I know the public schools were ranked very high in the state at least.  People sent their kids to private schools because they wanted stricter discipline, dress codes/uniforms, sex separation, and/or religious instruction involved. 
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« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2007, 08:02:28 PM »

Probably my area was exceptional, I will admit..  I know the public schools were ranked very high in the state at least.  People sent their kids to private schools because they wanted stricter discipline, dress codes/uniforms, sex separation, and/or religious instruction involved. 

Which it COULD be argued, from their perspective at least, constitutes "better" education.

Not all public schools are completely broken, but the public school SYSTEM most certainly is.  I heard the other day that H. Clinton is now claiming that if elected, she will institute government academies - training for future government workers, and has put forth the idea that private day care should be federalized.

Federal control of public education is arguably the single biggest hurdle to effective public education.  With federal funding comes federal control, and therein lies the crux of the WHY the above mentioned parents chose private school.  In some areas, dress codes or sex separation may not be 'favored,' but in others, that may be important.  With federal control, there is no community level choice.

I like to make the strip-club analogy.  If one community does not want a strip club in their neighborhood, I personally think it is perfectly reasonable for that community to ban them.  But, they should not have the power to ban them outright if other (nearby) communities want them.  Likewise, the communities that want them should not be able to force them on the neighborhoods that don't want them.

To me, public schools are like that.  If we all agree that public education is important to have, I believe each community (school district) should govern itself - to a greater extent than is done now.  Federal money should not be tied to accepting ideology agreeable to communities thousands of miles away if those ideologies contrast with the local community (within the framework of common sense caveats).  For example, in my area, church is a big deal - why should the schools not be part of that instead of adopting the views of a community on the opposite side of the country?

But then again, we are homeschooling in one of the best homeschooling states in the nation.  In fact, we have turned down job opportunities in states that have what we call 'weak" homeschooling laws.  And yes, we still pay taxes to finance the local school district AND pay for our children's education directly.  That's the choice we've made to have the level of control over that education we want.
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ghouck
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« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2007, 03:45:56 PM »

Quote
You really don't think the US government can do ANYTHING better than private business?  In other words, you think the government shouldn't, say, insure banks or control transportation systems and the military anymore since private business could do a better job of it?

No, I don't. The Government does all the things nobody else WANTS to do, and does them sometimes for LESS than it would cost a private firm, but not BETTER. They do have the advantage of having a network of resources, which is nessisary when it comes to large, long-term projects like the military or our transportation infrastructure. As for the military, the government creates it's own need for a military to some degree, so who knows how well that would work once you took all that out.

Quote
You can't deny they pay far less for health care per person than America does.

Yes I can, because 1. I don't have reliable numbers of how much of their taxes go to health care, and 2. Their treatment and system is different, so it's an apples and oranges situation.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 03:50:34 PM by ghouck » Logged

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ghouck
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« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2007, 03:48:35 PM »

Quote
^In otherwords, your argument is too weak to continue.

No, it's impossible to win an arguement against someone as dishonest as you. .
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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
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