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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  The Iowa Caucuses (I'll be attending and posting video) « previous next »
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Author Topic: The Iowa Caucuses (I'll be attending and posting video)  (Read 7721 times)
Jack
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« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »

So when did the enact the separation of race and state?  ;)

In this situation, religion and race are used in precisely the same manner and for precisely the same purpose:  To enact laws which are not the result of a careful examination of what is best for the country as a whole, but simply to pander to one special interest group or another.  If we don't hold both sides to the same standards, we're just left with the usual situation in which people criticize politicians for doing something yet defend other politicians for doing the exact same thing.  That's just verbal jousting and accomplishes nothing of any value except to see who has the best online debating skills.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2008, 10:34:15 AM »

ALL the presidents stink.  I have no idea why we have developed this president-centric view of history.  I have this book that rates the presidents.  the number one guys are the ones that killed the most people in wars and screwed up the economy and centralized the most power for the state. lincoln, FDR, WIlson.

the best president = none of them


the worst = all of them
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2008, 10:38:40 AM »

I'm not pro or anti Huckabee, I have no problem with him being a preacher, I have no problem with Romney being a Morman. What religion or degree there of the President has has little effect on the laws of the land short of who they nominate for the supreme court, which still has to have Senate ratification. There is very little the President can do unilaterally without congressional approval. Yes, there are things the president can do without congress but in the big picture it not that much if you spread it out across all 3 branches of government. Pretty much everything the President does has to at some point have congressional approval.
It not like a religious President is going to take office and say "OK, everybody MUST go to church!" or "You will convert to Mormonism ... or die!" and it is so. It's just silly to think that. While I'm not a very religious person myself I like the fact that a President believes they have someone or something much higher then themselves to answer too at the end of the day or the end of their life. Otherwise you get a leader in there that think they are the ultimate power and there is at least one canidate running in this election that believes that.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2008, 11:13:12 AM »

I am personally baffled by the animosity towards Rmoenys mormanism.  I saw a focus grou on C Span, tht's how bored I was that afternoon, and the people were saying catagorically they would NOT vote for a mormon.  I think there is a real misunderstanding as to what the job of president actually entails.  or perhaps it has become what it was not SUPPOSED to entail.


   Also,  virtually all politicians are church goers because they have so much sinning to repent for!!  seriously  used car salesman are some of the biggest born again christians out there
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Jack
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« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2008, 11:21:00 AM »

I more or less agree with you CheezeFlixz.  What I was getting at was that people on the other side of the issue have a lot of concerns about religion in politics, but at the same time seem to dismiss any concerns that racial politics may pose, ostensibly because they endorse that side.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2008, 01:00:29 PM »

ALL the presidents stink.  I have no idea why we have developed this president-centric view of history.  I have this book that rates the presidents.  the number one guys are the ones that killed the most people in wars and screwed up the economy and centralized the most power for the state. lincoln, FDR, WIlson.

the best president = none of them


the worst = all of them

Lester, that is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever heard.  The idea that all our Presidents are somehow "the worst" is ignorant and frankly proves the oft-stated point on this board that your political views are so extreme as to have no merit whatsoever. 

The FACT is that there have been some insignificant Presidents (Hayes, Garfield, Tyler) and some truly awful Presidents (Harding, Andrew Johnson, Buchanan, and Pierce) - but there have also been some Presidents who were deeply noble and idealistic human beings whose accomplishments delivered mankind from horrendous evils (Lincoln, Washington, FDR, and Truman).  Some of them were good, almost saintly men (Lincoln, Cleveland, McKinley) in their personal lives, some were Machiavellian schemers (FDR and Nixon), and some were just plain folks who did the best they could in the world's most difficult job (Truman, Reagan, and Eisenhower). 

As far as your comments about war go - war is always an evil, but it is sometimes a necessary evil.  War can be a cathartic, cleansing agent that wipes tyranny from the landscape and promotes liberty and democracy - or it can just be armed robbery writ large.  Trying to lump all wars into the same category makes about as much sense as trying to lump all presidents into the same category.

All you did in this post was to show your monumental ignorance once more.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2008, 01:52:58 PM »

indiana smith calls me an idiot and ignorant, but I get negative karma and he probably will get positive karma.  such is the fascist thought police, twilight zone karma system unfortunately adopted by this forum. 



insianasmith-  i don't think harding was awful.  during his tenor he didn't start any avoidable wars, didn't screw up the economy and didn't beef up the power of the central government.  That's all I personally want for a president so I'm cool with Warren G.

lincoln delivered mankind from horrendous evils?  lol  really?  not for the 600,000 people who died in the civil war.  slavery was ended peacefully everywhere else in the war.  LIncoln himself wanted to end all the slaves "back to africa" a la the klan.  no, the true motive was to stop the south from leaving the union which they had every right to do under the constitution.  because of his actions we got to have george bush and other texan politicians ruining our country.  thanks alot abe. 

washington was good.  I'll give you that.  that was the only war i support, the revolutionary war.  and the souths right to sucede.

FDR sent my grandfather to bomb innocent german people.  he drank himself to death from the horror of what he'd done.  yes, at a certain point we had to fight, but it was his statecraft that got us to that point and the versailles treaty after world war one that caused the hyperinflation in germany that made a maniac like Hitler seem attractive to german voters.


I don't think war can be any sort of cathartic agent of anything.  it's people with guns shooting at each other and killing each other in a way that would be criminal otherwise. 

wars are for GOVERNMENTS.  people seldom hate another people enugh to go kill them en masse.
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ulthar
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« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2008, 02:30:00 PM »

A friend of mine used to say, "No one should be President if they want to be."

A lot of wisdom, that.  Was it Thomas Jefferson who said it first?
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indianasmith
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« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2008, 03:45:22 PM »

Lester, I have tried to respect your opinions.  Honestly, I have.  But the stuff you spout is just so . . . WRONG that I can't help myself.  I don't know why I persist in this debate except that, well, I keep hoping maybe some sense will seep into your  head.

First of all, Warren G. Harding was an IMBECILE.  The man himself commented repeatedly that he was simply mentally unable to make the decisions that the Presidency required of him. his syntax was even worse than Bush's - try reading some of his inane speeches!   Harding was woefully ignorant on matters of public policy - he did not understand basic math, taxes, economics, law, or anything else.  His administration was filled with crooks and scoundrels, and their crimes literally worried poor Warren into a fatal heart attack . . . not to mention the fact that he was having an affair with a 17 year old when he was in his 50's!

Your comments about Lincoln are inexcusable.  First of all, secession was illegal and utterly unjustified.  The South said they would desert the Union if a Republican won the election, then deliberately split the Democratic party so that a Republican would win.  And what was the cause of their leaving?  Don't tell me you believe the "State's rights" argument that Jefferson Davis wrote in his old age.  Read the Ordinances of Secession passed by every Southern legislature, and what is there? Slavery.  The South was willing to destroy a nation and launch a disastrous war (and yes, THEY fired the first shots!) in order to continue selling little children at the auction block, work grown men in the field until they died of exhaustion, and rape black women at night so that mulatto children would be born on every year on every plantation.  Lincoln stopped that.  Yes, he did favor "colonization" at first, as many educated Americans did, because he feared that blacks and whites could never live together in peace.  The abominable treatment blacks suffered in the South for 100 years after emancipation makes you think he had a point, perhaps.  But Lincoln abandoned colonization at the behest of BLACK leaders who informed him that America was their country too.  He listened to the people involved and changed his mind.  What a concept!  He did not ask for the war, nor did he start it.  But he would accept war rather than let the nation perish.  No leader ever felt more keenly, or with greater mental anguish, the suffering of the soldiers of both sides on the battlefield.  But with incredible moral strength he persisted in doing right, because it was right, and he deserves better than to have his memory shat upon by the likes of you.

As for FDR, he was a far less likeable character.  But he saved the world by taking a stand against fascism.  Yes, innocent German civilians were immolated in German cities set afire by American bombers.  But those same German civilians turned a blind eye while Hitler killed 14 MILLION innocent civilians in the concentration camps!  The Nazis, and the Japanese had to be stopped.  FDR did it, and the physical and emotional toll of it all was so great that it killed him.  He wasn't a particularly nice man.  But he was a great president, and part of his legacy is that self-righteous libertarian prigs are now free to denigrate his memory instead of being jailed and gassed for daring to speak opposing opinions.

As far as the Board's karma system goes, it is democracy pure and simple.  People who don't like what you say will click one button, those who do will click the other.  Maybe if your opinions made more sense, more people would agree with you!
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"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
Allhallowsday
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« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2008, 05:06:09 PM »

Lester, I have tried to respect your opinions.  Honestly, I have.  But the stuff you spout is just so . . . WRONG that I can't help myself.  First of all, Warren G. Harding was an IMBECILE...  . . . not to mention the fact that he was having an affair with a 17 year old when he was in his 50's!
  The child HARDING sired was born in a house in Asbury Park, NJ that a friend of mine used to own...

Your comments about Lincoln are inexcusable... he deserves better than to have his memory shat upon by the likes of you.
   BounceGiggle  Well said. 

As for FDR ...he was a great president, and part of his legacy is that self-righteous libertarian prigs are now free to denigrate his memory instead of being jailed and gassed for daring to speak opposing opinions.
  Thumbup More karma for you, Indiana

As far as the Board's karma system goes, it is democracy pure and simple.  People who don't like what you say will click one button, those who do will click the other.  Maybe if your opinions made more sense, more people would agree with you!
I don't care for the haughty tone that often appears in Lester's posts.  Sometimes I agree with some of Lester's comments, but I never click either button for him.  Having been pointlessly insulted by Les in a thread he started about the film THE OTHER, I decided not to bother with attempting to communicate with him.
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flackbait
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2008, 12:10:54 AM »

Quote
indiana smith calls me an idiot and ignorant, but I get negative karma and he probably will get positive karma.  such is the fascist thought police, twilight zone karma system unfortunately adopted by this forum. 
When you spout stuff like your earlier post:

ALL the presidents stink.  I have no idea why we have developed this president-centric view of history.  I have this book that rates the presidents.  the number one guys are the ones that killed the most people in wars and screwed up the economy and centralized the most power for the state. lincoln, FDR, WIlson.

the best president = none of them


the worst = all of them
And don't provide any back up arguments what do you expect. Personally I think later guys like Lydon B. Johnson expanded the central government with stunts like the gulf of tonkin incident. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that FDR increased the power of the executive branch.

And to Indiana I think the only reason garfield didn't do much was because he died. I would have really liked to see what would have happened if he had lived. If I recall correctly he was supposed to be a rather honest politician in an age of corruption.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2008, 12:39:59 AM »

That is true, Flackbait.  Actually, most of the Presidents of the Gilded Age were personally honest men . . . and the one who had been a corrupt spoilsman cleaned up his act when he ascended to the Presidency (Chester A. Arthur).  But the Presidency in that era was a pretty powerless office, and personally honest executives did little to curb the rampant corruption in the Legislative Branch.
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"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
Ash
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2008, 02:01:59 AM »

Indiana and Lester...
You kids play nice!   TongueOut

You'll notice that when I wrote this thread, all I did was state who I was supporting.
I knew that if I went any further than that, it could possibly flare into a political flame war.
And it has to some extent.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a good political debate, but please keep it nice and friendly.

To lighten the mood, I thought I'd post this funny video.
Small | Large
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indianasmith
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A good bad movie is like popcorn for the soul!


« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2008, 08:37:30 AM »

(Pouting)  "He started it!!!!"  hot

 BounceGiggle  OK, OK, I'll be nice.  Lester and I have a bit of a history that's developed, sadly.
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"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
lester1/2jr
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2008, 10:14:13 AM »

indiana smith and all hallows day both attacked me first, indiana in this thrad and flackbait in the thread about the Other. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.  and continue to attack me

Quote
Warren G. Harding was an IMBECILE.

so what?  he didn't send anyone to die in the desert , enact bizarre central economic planning of the sort the soviets practiced, and he didn't imprison / spy on his enemies like Bush, FDR, and john Adams and Nixon repsctively.  better an imbecile tha a murderous tyrant.

Quote
secession was illegal and utterly unjustified

 i say it was legal and entirely ustified.  hard to believe tow people on the internet would have two totally different opinions on historical issues!

Quote
and yes, THEY fired the first shots

do you think the south wanted to take over the north?  of course not.   It wasn't really even a civil war.  it was a war for southern independence. 

you should read a book called "complicity".  the north sold the cotton that was grown in the south.  they were, as the title says, complicit in slavery and certainily had no moral hih ground to jusge the south on.  in britain they simply bought all thee slaves and freed them then outlawed slavery.  no one died for "humanity" there or anywhere else but here where 600,000 people virtually none of whom had anything at all to do with slavery or the slave trade, died.    slavery was on it's way out.



like I said, ww2 became unavoidable but it wasn't just "evil" and us fighting it.  there was all sorts of statecraft, most obviously the treaty of versailles, that led to it, as well as a bizarre trend towards huge government a la mussolini, stalin, hitler and , yes, FDR that was doomed to end badly. 

I don't know that 14 million died in the camps .  I know 6 million jews died  but I don't think there were 8 million others.  I 'm not trying to downplay the friggin holocaust for godsake just not sure on that figure.  tons of people died fighting the war too.  one of my favorite books is "the man outside" by wolfgang borchert.  he was 26 when he wrote it and had served 2 tours in hitlers army very much against his will.  he nearly froze to death shooting at russians in the snows of siberia.   

and i believe one group of officers DID try to kill hitler didn't they?

anyway, you wouldn't have had Hitler if you hadn't had the hyperinflation of post ww1.


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