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April 20, 2014, 11:41:33 PM
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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Islam « previous next »
Poll
Question: What do you personally think of the Islamic faith?
It is a good & peaceful religion - 4 (26.7%)
It is a bad religion based on total control - 7 (46.7%)
I don't know much about Islam - 4 (26.7%)
Total Voters: 15

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
Author Topic: Islam  (Read 7823 times)
AnubisVonMojo
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 01:59:45 PM »

I agree that it's ridiculous to knock Judaism as a Christian. Jesus was a practicing Jew. There really was no such thing as a "Christian" at that time. Christianity is based on Judaism, and Judaism shares its roots with Islam. Whether you worship God, Yaweh or Allah, it's the same deity. Understanding the other two can only bring better understanding of your own.

This year, for Maundy Thursday, our church held a potluck dinner in the tradition of a Passover Seder. Not kosher, but as authentic as possible. I heard later on that one of the participants had to defend this to some friends from other churches who had a problem with a Christian church observing a Jewish custom. We were marking the Last Supper, which was....a Passover Seder. You can't take the Jewish influence out of Christianity without losing a lot.

Islam, for that matter, recognizes Jesus as a prophet. It's just that they see Mohammed as the last word in prophets.

Hey, karma to you Andy for participating in another faith's custom. I support these types of events and I see stories about them on TV. Great. I love it when conflicting sides can walk in the other side's shoes and make the attempt to listen to each other and understand each other.

One thing I have to mention about Christianity in general that bothers me is missionary work. Charity is great. Helping those who can't help themselves? Awesome. Go for it. I'll give a homeless person $20 on pay day when I can. The problem with missionary work? Giving things like food, medicine, homes, schools and so forth to people who need it, then requiring them to convert to your faith as payment. Hmmm, giving something to somebody in exchange for their "eternal" commitment to you? Sounds like something Satan's always getting ragged on for doing. You want that sports car and a hot wife? Sign on the dotted line. Want to not die from starvation or exposure? Here, read this book... Why can't the church just can the missionary stuff and help people out Peace Corps. style? If you really want to help your fellow man, just give him what he needs and let the smile on their face be your reward. Don't give 'em the 8 free introductory CDs then jack up the price and make 'em buy 10 more in the next year! What are you, Columbia House?!  TongueOut
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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 02:07:07 PM »

This year, for Maundy Thursday, our church held a potluck dinner in the tradition of a Passover Seder. Not kosher, but as authentic as possible. I heard later on that one of the participants had to defend this to some friends from other churches who had a problem with a Christian church observing a Jewish custom. We were marking the Last Supper, which was....a Passover Seder. You can't take the Jewish influence out of Christianity without losing a lot.



Thats really cool.  So many poeple forget that religion has to come FROM somewhere. I think we have lost many traditions.  And this one is ga reat one to introduce.  I have always been jealous of my Jewish friend's Hanukkah and Passover traditions.  My family christmas tradtions seem to be paper hats from Christmas crackers and my mother reading a dreary old poem about children dying in the snow.  This Maundy Thursday thing really gets to the heart of it all.  It shows the roots of our traditions.


-Ed
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 02:49:12 PM »

Well, Maundy Thursday is actually a Christian observance that doesn't normally involve Jewish rituals. I believe foot washing usually comes into it. Involving Passover is a way to add a little more perspective.

Missionary work is a tough one. There are Christian groups that do it without the proselytizing, but they aren't as numerous or as vocal about it. The big problem with a lot of the modern perception of Christianity is that we look at history, when everybody was doing this stuff, and we look at Evangelicals, who by definition are in your face with their religion.

I just have to look at my own mother, who belongs to a very mainstream denomination, but of a different generation. She might be considered a "church lady." I used to judge religion based on her interpretation, which was (and still is) narrow, old fashioned and literal, and she was still more open-minded than some of the older church ladies I can remember (she's getting less so with age, however). She has always considered herself a progressive person, and she is pleasant and respectful of others, but she sometimes comes out with comments that baffle me. She's a smart person, but don't get her on the subject of where dinosaurs fit into the creation story. Honestly, that brand of theology put me off church for many years.

I'd guess a lot of people base their early impressions of church on the church ladies, who are very much as Dana Carvey portrayed them. But there aren't as many around as there used to be, at least not in the more liberal denominations.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 06:04:06 PM by AndyC » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 03:02:56 PM »

I probably should stay out of this, but my common sense seems to be lacking something today...

Anubis, I have to respectfully disagree with a few things you've said. First and foremost, Jesus of Nazareth is one of the best documented figures in history. You may choose not to believe the miraculous occurrences attributed to him, but his existence has never been seriously questioned. Groups like the Jesus Seminar use very poor scholarship (i.e., they pull "facts" straight out of their backsides) to claim that Jesus was merely an idealized fictional rabbi. No serious historical scholars that I have seen acknowledge such rubbish. I'm not trying to proselytize here, but Jesus is a historical figure as well as a religious figure. I don't really care (for the purposes of this discussion, at least) whether you believe in God, but get the facts before making claims.

Second, I will agree with you that too many people do horrible things in the name of a religion. If you will go back and look, however, most of the horrors committed by Christians were of a political nature more than a religious nature. The Crusades were about politics much more than they were about spreading a faith. Once the church was forced mostly out of politics, the atrocities ceased for the most part. Christians are people, however, and there will always be idiots in religion, just as there are in every walk of life. Much of what has passed for religion through the ages is simple superstition, and people do stupid things when they are afraid. The Gospels address this, saying that many who think they understand really will never "get it" (Matthew 25).

As for missionary work, I think you put to much emphasis on "forced conversions" (as I read the Bible, there can be no such thing; if you do not come to Christ of your own free will, you cannot come at all). However, try to see this from an evangelist's perspective: "I've found the best answer to the fundamental questions of Life. If I see someone who would benefit from this knowledge, it would be immoral of me not to share." Evangelical Christians believe they have the life preservers and that humanity is drowning. How can you expect them to just "keep their religion private"? You may not agree with them; that is your right. But telling them to keep quiet is, in a way, forcing your beliefs on them. Life is never easy, and no religion can answer every question any more than any secular philosophy can, so opinions will vary on how we ought to behave. That is unavoidable. Your best strategy would be to tell anyone trying to proselytize you that you're not interested. Most will back off. Those that don't are usually the idiots. Verbally abuse them as you see fit.

As far as Islam goes (Wow! I'm finally getting to the thread topic!), of course there are similarities between the Koran and the Pentateuch (first five books of the Old Testament). Mohamed basically took those books and restructured them to revolve around Abraham's first born, Ishmael (born to his wife's slave), rather than around Isaac, who was the "child of the Promise" originally. In doing so, he made the Arab world the focal point of humanity, thereby turning the Jews into "also rans." As has already been said, there are of course peaceful Muslims (most humans want to live safely in peace), but the religion opens itself readily for violence. It may be mainly fringe groups that accept the violent outlook, but the fringe groups are gaining in popularity and power, and the peaceful adherents are doing nothing about it beyond the occasional "but we're peaceful!" declarations.
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 03:14:06 PM »

Besides the name of "Allah" being the name of his tribal Moon God. Islam borrows a lot from both Judism and Christianity. Religiously it doesn't give the world any new insight towards monotheistic religion. It has a few nice verses towards God that at first seem unique to the Koran, but nothing really revelatory in the slightest. Arabs will tell you that you must know the Arabic language to really understand the Koran. There is nothing in the Koran given to me which should make millions flock to it accept peoples ignorance of other religions which would be mostly due to language in many cases. Of course the sword is always persuasive. At the time Mohamed was involved with trade caravans in Mecca. Mecca, which had many different places of worship with idols, statues, and such which he later crushed (cleansed). Judism in that particular region may still have been too racially inclusive for an Arab to really feel at home with it and Mohamed probably decided to make his own religion inspired perhaps out of the desert regions from which he came. Simply destroying all that he felt was unnecessary. He unfortunately took away the very heart of God which is the divine Jesus Christ and made Him a human prophet instead of the Son of God. Mohamed (God) spoke of surrender and mercy, but missed the mark completely. I once heard that he stoned the man in the well/cave who taught him much about religion. I'm wondering if this man may have been a Syrian Christian monk who recognized him as a youth.

Read the whole Book of Judges if you want to read about violence in the name of God.

"Do unto others as you would have done unto you." may take on a whole new meaning when faced with radical Islam.

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me and the whole world.
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 04:33:25 PM »

"Jesus of Nazareth is one of the best documented figures in history. You may choose not to believe the miraculous occurrences attributed to him, but his existence has never been seriously questioned."

Not an argument I care to get into myself (it's quite a moot point to me) but I know a good many scholars, professionals, and even former ministers in real life and online who would disagree with you.  Of course, they (along with myself) do not accept the Bible as a historically accurate document.  There is an entire forum I visit that addresses such questions from time to time if you're interested.

Not saying he didn't exist, just that there is debate on the existence itself, if the guy's existence is what is the same as what everyone thinks is his existence, and if he said and did the things claimed.  I personally think he existed, but I'm not sure he claimed the things he is said to have <shrugs>.  But there is debate.  But, as you state, there is much more debate on the whole divinity question.

Here's a few conversations about it, but I honestly haven't read the entire threads in quite awhile:

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-atheism&tid=39986

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-atheism&tid=40188

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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2008, 05:40:39 PM »

Anubis, I have to respectfully disagree with a few things you've said. First and foremost, Jesus of Nazareth is one of the best documented figures in history. You may choose not to believe the miraculous occurrences attributed to him, but his existence has never been seriously questioned. Groups like the Jesus Seminar use very poor scholarship (i.e., they pull "facts" straight out of their backsides) to claim that Jesus was merely an idealized fictional rabbi. No serious historical scholars that I have seen acknowledge such rubbish. I'm not trying to proselytize here, but Jesus is a historical figure as well as a religious figure. I don't really care (for the purposes of this discussion, at least) whether you believe in God, but get the facts before making claims.

My problem with that is that I've never been shown facts per say to substantiate the claim that the man ever lived. The few notations to Christ I've ever heard in an history class I've ever been in was that Christianity apparently thought so little of the man that they moved around the dates of his birth and death solely as an attempt to convert Pagans. If you know of any unbiased evidence that the man really existed, I'd appreciate a link to any of said information so I can further educate myself on the topic. Additionally, if the man did exist, I have no doubt that he was a charismatic snake-oil salesman who knew it's easier to catch the ear of the elite once you've rallied the hopeless and downtrodden first, he wasn't white (a white guy in the Middle East?!), but that the stories of his miraculous alchemy, levitation, and zombie-making skills are as real as the stories of Hercules, Superman, or anything any Dungeon Master has ever conjured up.

As for missionary work, I think you put to much emphasis on "forced conversions" (as I read the Bible, there can be no such thing; if you do not come to Christ of your own free will, you cannot come at all). However, try to see this from an evangelist's perspective: "I've found the best answer to the fundamental questions of Life. If I see someone who would benefit from this knowledge, it would be immoral of me not to share." Evangelical Christians believe they have the life preservers and that humanity is drowning. How can you expect them to just "keep their religion private"? You may not agree with them; that is your right. But telling them to keep quiet is, in a way, forcing your beliefs on them. Life is never easy, and no religion can answer every question any more than any secular philosophy can, so opinions will vary on how we ought to behave. That is unavoidable.

My point is that you can do nice things for people without preaching to them, and you can tell other people about how much you like your religion without waving a cure for their disease in front of their face while you're doing it. If all of this stuff is only true of the extremists, then the moderates need to start piping up and distancing themselves from said extremists so outsiders like me can start hearing about it. Stop giving the nut jobs all the air time and maybe there won't be so many haters!  TeddyR
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2008, 06:18:58 PM »

The few notations to Christ I've ever heard in an history class I've ever been in was that Christianity apparently thought so little of the man that they moved around the dates of his birth and death solely as an attempt to convert Pagans.

That's my biggest beef with the literalists. Half the time, they beat you over the head with things that were revised at some point in history for political reasons, badly translated to Latin, then to English, or just plain taken out of context. But it isn't just the bible thumpers who are guilty of that. Their biggest critics are just as incapable of making a distinction between fact and truth. There can be truth without facts, as in a fictional story. Being fictional does not render it false, nor do its truths automatically make it factual.

Whether everything in the bible really happened that way is not the point at all.
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 06:35:28 PM »

I know practically nothing about Islam.  I'm not really interested in any organised religion, regardless of what it is. All religions are based on fear and guilt and that's when you get extremists. 

No thanks.
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 06:59:15 PM »

The few notations to Christ I've ever heard in an history class I've ever been in was that Christianity apparently thought so little of the man that they moved around the dates of his birth and death solely as an attempt to convert Pagans.

That's my biggest beef with the literalists. Half the time, they beat you over the head with things that were revised at some point in history for political reasons, badly translated to Latin, then to English, or just plain taken out of context. But it isn't just the bible thumpers who are guilty of that. Their biggest critics are just as incapable of making a distinction between fact and truth. There can be truth without facts, as in a fictional story. Being fictional does not render it false, nor do its truths automatically make it factual.

Whether everything in the bible really happened that way is not the point at all.

I find it amusing that many of the most vicious critics of Christianity have never actually read the Gospels.  Sadly, I don't have time to address all the many good questions and points raised in this thread - maybe more later, but my daughter is waiting for me to help her with her homework.  Let me say this - there is very good historical, archeological, and textual evidence to believe that the four gospels contained in the New Testament accurately record the life and witness of Jesus Christ.  There are, I believe, five or six NON-Christian sources that mention the life and death of Jesus that were penned within a century or less of his lifetime (that sounds paltry in today's mass media world, but remember, there are fewer than 500 written documents of ANY sort from that region of the world during that time-span that have survived to the present day, and half of those are either in the New Testament or were written by Christians living early in the Second Century.  As for this very tired old line about "the Gospels have been edited, altered, translated, retranslated, and thoroughly butchered" - it's provably untrue.  The fact is that the New Testament has been passed down with a textual purity of 99.5% from the time of its composition. 
  Let me give a quick example of the accuracy of Scriptural transmission before I have to scoot and face the mysteries of Seventh Grade grammar!  Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumram in 1948, the oldest copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to about 1300 AD.  No older copies were known to exist.  When the caves at Qumram were discovered, there were, among the 10,000 manuscripts and fragments found there, two complete copies of the Book of Isaiah, both dated to around 100 BC.  That is a 1400 year gap!!!! During that time, the manuscript had been passed down from generation to generation, copied by hand the whole time.  Everyone was waiting with bated breath to see how "messed up" our modern Old Testamen would be compared to this ancient text.
  What they found was that fewer than 1 word in a thousand had changed at all.  The changes that were there were mostly very minor variations in spelling and grammar, and the most radical deviation from the original text did not change in any way the meaning of the verse in which it occurred - it restated the same idea in slightly different terms.  While not all modern translations are as accurate as some, the Greek and Hebrew texts scholars work from today have been passed down from the originals virtually unchanged . . .

Anubis, I will address some of your comments about Jesus himself, and about medical missionaries,  later, if time allows.  If you want me to.  I'm certainly not trying to bash you, belittle you, or irritate you.  But I think your earlier posts contain some serious misinformation.
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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2008, 07:10:26 PM »

Whether everything in the bible really happened that way is not the point at all.

A friend of mine back in high school put it best: the Bible is one of the greatest works of fiction he's ever read. Just like Aesop's Fables, the Koran, and Tales From the Crypt (to bring it back to Forum terms), it's a collection of morality tales that try to put existence into perspective via the writer's personal opinions. It reminds me of The Great Gatsby. In my Junior high school English class, our teacher made sure to point out everything that had a hidden meaning in the book. The problem though is that when someone would say, "Well, couldn't the color green maybe mean this instead?", he would go into stubborn old man mode and tell us that we were wrong and the book is to be interpreted exactly as HE said they were. Inflexibility is the bane of education.  Drink
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2008, 07:23:03 PM »

Anubis, I will address some of your comments about Jesus himself, and about medical missionaries,  later, if time allows.  If you want me to.  I'm certainly not trying to bash you, belittle you, or irritate you.  But I think your earlier posts contain some serious misinformation.

By all means Indy, I'm always open to hearing counterpoints! I welcome an open exchange of ideas and opinions and I look forward to it. I'm just glad I can't be targeted with witch trials for anything I'm saying.  Wink

Though nobody's yet explained to me why none of these various higher powers have come down to Earth to straighten out who's right or wrong yet. And if he/she/they don't appreciate my question, I invite them to step down, get with the smiting and prove me wrong. I've been waiting for some of this righteous wrath firsthand! Then again, I'm pretty sure that even if one of 'em (or all of 'em for that matter) did make their presence known, I can see a situation where detractors worldwide like Rush Limbaugh would still call this all powerful force wrong. Then again, are Gods like Tinkerbell and they can't appear until enough people in the world believe in one or the other, hence why they rely on we shaved apes to do all their talking for them?  TeddyR
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:47 PM »

From Anubis: "Though nobody's yet explained to me why none of these various higher powers have come down to Earth to straighten out who's right or wrong yet. And if he/she/they don't appreciate my question, I invite them to step down, get with the smiting and prove me wrong. "

BINGO!!!!!  You just hit the jackpot!  God did step down to earth - but He came to heal, not to harm.  Read the first chapter of John's gospel - just the first 18 verses, if you like.  It begins like this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  It concludes with these lines: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

   Those lines were written around 90 AD, when John was the last survivor of the original 12 apostles.  Jesus was crucified around AD 30.  Matthew, Mark, and Luke had all composed their gospels about 25 - 25 years later, and John was familiar with what they had written.  He was also familiar with the Gnostics, the first splinter cult to break off from Christianity, who insisted that Jesus was a purely spiritual being who never had a physical body.  The elderly apostle, knowing his years on earth were drawing to a close, wrote what I consider the most beautiful book in the history of the world, to prove one thing: that Jesus Christ was, in fact, God come down to earth in a human body.  He then proceeds to prove his case by laying down eyewitness testimony of what he saw Jesus say and do, and of seven miraculous signs, each more impressive than the last, demonstrating Jesus's divine nature.  Finally, Jesus' triumph over death is presented as the ultimate proof that He was who He claimed to be: God the Son, immortal incarnate.  John may have been old, but he was sharp, and he presented an incredibly convincing case that Jesus was the Son of God.

Here's what it boils down to:  If Jesus Christ really did rise from the dead, as every ancient source both Christian and non-Christian, seems to indicate He did, then He was indeed the Son of God.  If not, he's just a crazy dead rabbi, and I might as well be praying to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all the good it does me.


One last note, on medical mssionaries - they give comfort and aid, medicine and food, to all who come to them, regardless of race, creed, or color.  After attending to physical needs, they try to share the gospel, according to the Great Commission given by Christ.  Forced conversion was never intended to be part of the program.  But the model given in Scripture is that believers should minister to all needs - first to the physical, then to the spiritual.  What kind of doctor would treat you for a splinter in your finger and not try to treat a deadly infection in another part of the body?  From the Christian perspective, sin is a cancer of the sould that is 100% curable through the grace of God.  It would be immoral not to offer the cure, but it would be just as immoral to force it on someone who doesn't want it.

I hope this explains where I'm coming from.  I realize it is a bit of a detour from where this thread started, so let me come full circle here:

Allah is a God who asks you to send your son to die for him.
The God of the Bible sent His Son to die for you.

That, in the end, is the difference.
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2008, 11:24:36 PM »

In Islam they believe the Koran actually came down from heaven in book form and that it was not written down by any man. Mohamed is said to have been illiterate.

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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2008, 02:16:30 AM »

I know practically nothing about Islam.  I'm not really interested in any organised religion, regardless of what it is. All religions are based on fear and guilt and that's when you get extremists. 

No thanks.

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