Suicide

[Rev. Powell]

Sister Grace made an offhand remark about suicide in another thread.

This is one of the most uncomfortable topics I can imagine.  Most of the time, people will make a comment about suicide and not mean anything by it.  But sometimes, people who talk about suicide, even while seemingly joking, are seriously contemplating it.  I had a friend who made jokes about suicide and everyone laughed it off; later, we were shocked when he actually slit his wrists.  Fortunately, he survived, got treatment for his depression, and now is relatively happy.

Like lots of people, I've experienced deep, hopeless despair, but I would never consider suicide just because of the devastating effect I know it would have on my family and friends. 

I also think of Nietzsche's quote: "It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night."  Meaning, in my mind, that simply understanding that suffering is temporary and that we have the power to end it is enough to give us hope to continue.

I don't mean to imply that I think Sister Grace was serious.  But you never can tell, and I hate to think of what happened to my friend happening to someone else because everyone ignores the warning signs. 

Many people resort to suicide too soon rather than seeking treatment for depression.

Here's a list of suicide prevention hotlines: http://suicidehotlines.com/

       


     

 

[ER]

Well said. Karma your way.

[schmendrik]

I had a friend in college who used to joke about this all the time, and I was never completely sure if she was joking. She was fascinated with Freddie Prinze, a rising hispanic TV sitcom star who committed suicide in 1978 at a young age, I think while his sitcom ("Chico and the Man") was still in production. She always used to tell me that one day I was going to get the post card that told me she'd done it. I never knew what to say to this.

You made me wonder if she's OK. I googled her name and I'm glad to report that she's more than OK, she appears to be a successful actor and voiceover artist in NYC with quite an impressive resume.

[Mr. DS]

Thank you Rev for posting this subject.  I hope everyone on this board realizes that they have friends here who care.  Regardless if of any of us ever meet face to face.

[Menard]

Many people resort to suicide too soon rather than seeking treatment for depression.

Isn't suicide always too soon?

(please note: contrary to an all too common religious, head up one's ass, idiocy of a god that likes to see people suffer, I am excluding suicide in the case of terminal illness from the above remark)

Contrary to what you postulated, those I have known who have committed suicide were never vocal or even joked about it. It actually seemed contrary to their happy-go-lucky put-on*. That's not to say that those who joke about it, or are otherwise vocalizing about it, are not capable of it, but that is often a call for attention whether for the sake of intervention, or just for the attention itself.


*Something I have learned over the years, as many of us have as we get older, is being able to tell when someone is putting on a face and hiding something inside. There are many who will not look past that, though, and often they are the ones you hear saying stuff like 'they always seemed so happy'. People with depression, and a horrible disorder it is, will often learn to put on a face; not out of deceiving people, mind you, but it is often necessary to get through the day, especially if you don't want others to find excuses to get away from you.


This is not categorizing suicide, though, into a single mindset. There are as many faces to suicide as there are to the people who commit suicide. As complex as the human mind is, it is not an act that that has a simple, or single, root or behavior.




On the lighter side...


Interesting that you brought this up, Rev, as on Friday morning when I showed up at the local Walmart to stock magazines, I went into receiving to find Shari climbing into the trash compactor (she was try to dislodge some wood and push it down the chute). My reaction was to say 'don't do it...you've got so much to live for'.

BTW, I learned from her that something that doesn't sit right (such as the wood in the compactor) is all 'cattywampus' (I'm presuming the spelling as I really don't know how to spell that).

[Andrew]

I've known a few Marines who either tried or were successful.  About 2000 there was a Sergeant who drank Pine-sol, slit his wrists, and then finally shot himself in his quarters about 100 yards away from where Katie and I were sleeping.  He was ultimately successful.

Guess that it's a little more common in the military than average (probably the same at colleges from what I know).  It is required yearly training for us.  Last year I was the instructor.  It made me wish that the Navy-produced suicide prevention video was not so cheesy, but it's general points were spot on.  If someone is undergoing a major life stress, such as divorce, money problems, etc - that is something to keep an eye on.  Also the same if their personality or work habits suddenly change, or if they start giving away personal items.

Life is amazing.  Every day is a new day, and a year or less can be a huge difference in your life and your outlook.  People who are considering suicide should always give time a chance.  Time does incredible things.

[indianasmith]

Interesting discussion.  I have known a number of people over the years who have either attempted or succeeded in suicide.  On the one hand, there is a deep sympathy for anyone so emotionally disturbed that there seems to be no hope, no reason to go on.  On the other hand, there is . . . a certain amount of anger.  I think suicide is perhaps the most inherently selfish act a person can perform.  They leave behind a family devastated and blaming themselves, and frequently (particularly with men, who seem to prefer  using guns to kill themselves), the person who found the body is permanently traumatized.

I lost a good friend and former student a few years ago who strangled himself with a belt doing some kind of "choking game" - he left a mom, dad, and four siblings absolutely heartbroken, and a best friend/roommate who found his body and is still too traumatized to talk about it.  I spoke at his funeral and could barely get the words out through my tears, and at the same time, the more I thought about it, the MADDER at him I got.  A strange reaction, but not uncommon, from what I hear.

He was 23 years old.

[Sister Grace]

Suicide runs rampant in my family; in fact my uncle recently went out with a bang:

http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/27822629.html

ok, maybe my phrasing was in bad taste, but sometimes the only way to deal is to smile and go on. I"ve had family members kill themselves, friends that have OD'd, and others whom have went. I won't lie, I've had my own flirtations with suicide. Thankfully I have a mother who doesn't know how knock before she lets herself in  my house with her key....

 But I came away with two pieces of advice:

1. Life is not a passing fancy; it can come or go quickly and should be enjoyed, even if you feel you are going crazy.

2. Hanging is not a perferred method and contrary to popular belief, it is exceptionally painful in a burning sort of way.

[Mr. DS]

Contrary to what you postulated, those I have known who have committed suicide were never vocal or even joked about it. It actually seemed contrary to their happy-go-lucky put-on*. That's not to say that those who joke about it, or are otherwise vocalizing about it, are not capable of it, but that is often a call for attention whether for the sake of intervention, or just for the attention itself.

Agreed.  I recall a friend thousands of miles away from me calling me at 3 AM one morning distraught.  She said she took all of her sleeping pills because she wanted to die.  No matter what I said to her about calling 911 she refused because "no one cared".  Luckily I was able to get the paramedics to her in time by making a few phone calls.  This was a person I had talked to days before who seemed perfectly fine.  No hints of anything.    

Suicide is an interesting topic as mentioned.  Indiana is a history buff and can probably comment more on this than I can but I recall watching Rome on DVD.  They had a snippet about suicide in ancient times and how it was a thing of valor to do.  Example, Marc Antony and Cleopatra.

I'm with Indiana when he says it is a selfish act in more ways than one. I simply don't think people realize the re procutions they leave behind after doing that one act.  I find public suicides particularly disturbing.  For example the infamous Bud Dwyer press conference.  They had the guy cornered with bribery charges and he kills himself on film in front of a bunch of reporters.  Chilling stuff if you dare watch it.  

[Menard]

...there is a deep sympathy for anyone so emotionally disturbed that there seems to be no hope, no reason to go on.  On the other hand, there is . . . a certain amount of anger.  I think suicide is perhaps the most inherently selfish act a person can perform.  They leave behind a family devastated and blaming themselves, and frequently (particularly with men, who seem to prefer  using guns to kill themselves), the person who found the body is permanently traumatized.

I'm with Indiana when he says it is a selfish act in more ways than one. I simply don't think people realize the re procutions they leave behind after doing that one act.

First of all, I apologize for the surgical nature of quoting the two of you. I extracted the most relevant, IMO, parts that I felt applied to my response; and hence, the catalyst for my response. If you feel that by doing so that I have in any way changed the meaning of what you said, please do say so.


I disagree on defining suicide as a selfish act.

Certainly it can be selfish, and perhaps the act itself can be further intended by someone as not only a way out of something, but as a way to hurt others as well.

What we see as the end result in the devastation to others is understandable in seeing what caused that as being selfish; yet, we did not see the causal affects that led a person to that.

There really is no polite way to put it, but it seems to me that calling someone's drastic desire to end suffering (and it is a dark place at that) selfish is in and of itself selfish. It seems like say that calling it selfish is like saying 'that doesn't fit with my mindset, with what I believe, and that to me is selfish'.

Like I said, though, we only see the one side of it and the assumption that it is selfish is natural; but I cannot agree with trying to define suicide as that.



The most idiotic definition of suicide I have seen was on that equally idiotic TV show, CSI.

Grissom (whatever the hell his name is) had decided that a man had not committed suicide based solely on the fact that he was wearing his glasses. The reason for that, as his rationalization went, was that suicide was such a cowardly act that a man jumping from a building would be too much of a coward to see it coming, and thusly would not wear his glasses. And people watch that damn show?

[Mr. DS]

Like I said, though, we only see the one side of it and the assumption that it is selfish is natural; but I cannot agree with trying to define suicide as that.

I was referring more or less to the people left behind.  Parents (especially) and best friends who loved this person and would have gone beyond the call of duty to be there for them.   For example my friend I mentioned who claimed "no one cares".

I see and respect your point and  I can see where I may have been generalizing.  Perhaps in unique situations, the person who committed suicide really has no one that gives a sh*t which is sad.  Either that or the person's loved ones who do care (Dr. Kevorkian's cases come to mind) feel the person may be better off dead due to a terminal illness causing their loved ones great pain. 

[ghouck]

I've dealt with it a little in my lifetime, and even moreso with depression. I think people label suicide as "selfish" and "cowardly" because they truly do not understand what people go through. Depression is a MOFO, and people that haven't experienced true depression think a simple "Get over it" or "tomorrow will be better" or "it's not that bad" are some sort of magic words. With all the things going on in a suicidal person's head, taking a shot at them like calling them 'selfish' or 'cowardly' just helps them make that decision. People think "It won't last forever, it'll get better" are going to change something, it's not true, you're just proving to that person how out of touch you are with them. True depression is not conscious, it's quite different than the way people fortunate to NOT suffer through it feel. Ever have that feeling that you're going through something bad, loss of a loved one, lost your job, wrecked your car. . You feel bad, but you know it'll get better. True depression feels in many ways the opposite: You have some small little bit of relative happiness, and you KNOW it's temporary. This often isn't just someone being a pansy: We know how parts of the brain works, we know alot about the part of the brain that drugs such as meth, coke, opiates manipulate, and when these areas don't wok as they are supposed to, things get ugly. People often point out medication to help, but, many of those medications have side effects, often SEXUAL side effects. OK, so a guy is depressed, , the meds are going to make his dick stop working and that's going to HELP the matter? That's going to help whatever relationship he's in?

Manard hit some critical keys. People that are depressed and suicidal often ARE thinking of others, and largely because they see themselves as a burden to them. That's not selfish if you can put yourself into their shoes. Parents feel they are the worst parents, and kill themselves so their kids can be raised by someone better. Often they do this because they know their kids won't give up on them, which they FEEL is the best thing for them, as if the children are making a sacrifice.

Darksider states that people don't see the repercussions they leave behind: They see lots of them beforehand, and they mostly seem positive. Again, it's about a person's inability to see anything positive out of living. That's what depression does to a person.

[indianasmith]

Well said, Ghouck.  I've dealt with depression in a family member, and it is a monster.  No matter how carefully and logically you point out to someone that their whole life has not been the catastrophe they seem to think it is, depression literally alters the memories, erasing everything good and decent and replacing it with only the bleak and miserable. I am a big advocate of professional counselling and care for depression, because it is a DISEASE.  But in the case of suicide, my dealings have been almost entirely with devastated families.  Seeing their raw pain and grief and realizing that, in so many cases, some decent psychiatric care or meds would have made that hurt unnecessary, have perhaps colored my perceptions of the act.

Certainly no ill will to Dr. Menard for pointing out the illogic of my position.  But emotions, as Mr. Spock says, are the antithesis of logic.

[dean]

http://beyondblue.org/

[Derf]

Depression is a MOFO, and people that haven't experienced true depression think a simple "Get over it" or "tomorrow will be better" or "it's not that bad" are some sort of magic words. With all the things going on in a suicidal person's head, taking a shot at them like calling them 'selfish' or 'cowardly' just helps them make that decision. People think "It won't last forever, it'll get better" are going to change something, it's not true, you're just proving to that person how out of touch you are with them. True depression is not conscious, it's quite different than the way people fortunate to NOT suffer through it feel. Ever have that feeling that you're going through something bad, loss of a loved one, lost your job, wrecked your car. . You feel bad, but you know it'll get better. True depression feels in many ways the opposite: You have some small little bit of relative happiness, and you KNOW it's temporary. This often isn't just someone being a pansy: We know how parts of the brain works, we know alot about the part of the brain that drugs such as meth, coke, opiates manipulate, and when these areas don't wok as they are supposed to, things get ugly.

I edited your reply a bit, ghouk, in order to keep my reply a little more focussed. I've fought with depression most of my adult life, and you are correct in your assessment. But really, what is someone supposed to say to a depressed person? Words are powerful in some ways and totally ineffective in others. Depression is one of those cases where words, ANY words, are pretty much meaningless. And more, actions are pretty meaningless to a person suffering depression as well. The depressed person just figures that the concerned person is acting out of pity or is looking to gain some self importance rather than acting out of true concern. Most people are not really prepared to do what it takes to really try to help a person out of depression; most people, in fact, don't have a clue what to do. I've fought with it for decades myself, and I really don't know what to do. Advice is, as you stated, meaningless. Physical intervention is usually misconstrued. Drugs are iffy at best. I overcame the darkest parts of my life through faith and by finally convincing myself that it is the depression that is temporary, not the happiness. I finally managed to get myself to believe that I would come through any dark spots, that there is an "other" side. No one could do it for me; I had to do it for myself. Now, I have to try to help those around me to see the same thing, knowing that words and actions are pretty meaningless, but I have to use them anyway, as they are the only tools I have.

As far as the selfishness of suicide goes, that is, as I understand it, a natural part of the grieving process for survivors. Whatever the mindset of the one committing/attempting suicide, the survivors/ones-who-have-to-try-to-mend-the-situation are left with dealing with the grief, and anger is a part of it. Menard is arguing two different causes people consider suicide and combining them into one: depression and terminal illness. Depression is treatable to some extent; terminal illnesses are not (though some cases that have been labelled as "terminal" turn out not to be so, they are the exception, not the rule). I've known several people who have given in to depression-driven suicide, usually ones who hid the depression well enough that it came as a total surprise. Depression is a part of my life, and I don't mind talking about it. If it drives some people away or creeps some people out, well, so be it. I have learned to deal with it, though it does still get to me, without resorting to thoughts of suicide.