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Author Topic: Clash of Cultures Looms in Europe, Experts Say  (Read 2910 times)
Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2010, 08:19:23 PM »

Quote
when I cornered and countered you, you took the hissy fit route and started namecalling.

you never countered me nor did I ever throw a hissy fit.

I'm sorry, did I say hissy fir? namecalling is a p**sY fit.


Quote
I'm not talking about hurting innocents, either. And I think you knew that.

how can you take off the gloves without hurting innocents? take off one glove?

Again you conveniently take me out of context.


Quote
When have we fought to win a war since WW2?  We haven't. We're not allowed to...


gulf war 1?

Oh yeah, right. AWe achieved a military objective. We could have easily taken Saddam down, as we had a HUGE coalition, and those willing to do it. As usual, the UN decided to back out and told the reamining armies they were doing so at their own risk.

If we got Saddam then, we wouldn't have had this BS NOW..

Besides, this makes my point more than yours or his. WHy would you throw young men and women out into wars when they aren't going to be allowed to fight with their gloves off and where the press is going to sabotage them?

So we back down to the press? Since when do Americans have to back down to the press?  Put the muzzle on them like was done in WW2. The press had rules back then.

Oh but again I forget, rules are baseline Nazi-ism and repression because everyone feels they should just say what they want w\o any regard for the damage it creates.  Lookingup


The difference is between:

1. fighting for our own preservation - issues of tact are not going to come up

2.the preservation of western civiliation/ allies we feel are vital. - people will likely overlook human rights issues.


and 3. simply playing at empire and being the worlds police. - you aren't really wanted so everything you do is suspect.

Well put, no disagreements there.


self preservation goes without saying and there are good arguments (none of which I agree with) for elements of #2.  #3 is basically a jobs program for beaurocrats and other well connected people in and around capitols and is generally deliterious to a nations security in every meaning of that word. Pretending our current military stature in the middle east is 1 or even 2 doesn't make it so. If it was we probably wouldn't be having this discussion we would all be at the recuruitment office and ther wolkd be very little in the press about guantanamo, abu graib etc. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

and again I agree on all the civil war stuff.

Huan rights and self-preservation?

Self preservation often has a very high price tag that comes with it. Noone ever said it came free.   If we had taken this attitude during WW2, things would be different now.

As far as human rights issues being overlooked, I defer to the cowardly Al Qaeda jerks who throw acid in womens' faces, burn their schools, and treat women like sh@t in the name of God. A woma recently got her nose cut off (saw this on HLN.)

Let's not forget Al Qaeda in Iraq-remember about 5 years ago when they threw gasoline in the face of a little boy named Yousef?  Are the people who do this interested in human rights?

We always hear what AMERICA does, and nothing of what the other side(s) do to their own.   

And it makes me mad because we always hear these "human rights" folk screaming about what America does, but yet you tell them about the stuff I mentioned above, and suddenly it turns into "well that's just how it is over there, sh#t happens."

Maybe if it happened to THEM, they'd have a different take on it.
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
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Malatu na nou karan.
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Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
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indianasmith
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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2010, 08:55:07 PM »

Umaril, my bud, you are right on so very many things, but . . .

slavery a "fringe issue" in the Civil War?

Please.  Get real.

Don't believe me - read the newspaper editorials throughout the South during the secession crisis.  Read the Ordinances of Secession in every Southern State.
Or consider this quote from the inaugural address of Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA:
"Our government is founded upon the supposition. . . that the white man is not equal to the black man, that slavery is his natural and normal condition. . . Our government is the first in the world to be founded upon this. . . fact"

No slavery, no Civil War.  Pure and simple.  Or, as one of my colleagues put it: "The cause of the Civil War was perhaps not so much slavery itself as the South's irrational desire to hang on to it at all costs . . . "

As a historian and a Southerner, I am deeply troubled by the observations of the Civil War's Sesquicentennial that seek to either avoid or whitewash this issue.  The fact is, North and South had compromised on every other issue for 80 years.  Slavery was the one thing on which they could not find common ground.  Why?  Because the South was willing to do ANYTHING to expand slavery into the national territories.

The best evidence of this, for me, is to carefully read Lincoln's First Inaugural Address.  He directed the bulk of it at the South, and begged them to listen to the voice of reason.  He pointed out that, on the sensitive issue of slavery, the laws of their own composition were still on the books.  The South had become so paranoid they were perfectly willing to tear the country in two rather than tolerate even moderate restrictions on the SPREAD of slavery . . . which is all Lincoln had committed to do.  And, in launching an unjust war of secession, they effectively doomed their own "peculiar institution."
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« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2010, 09:20:06 PM »

Ok.....Indy...we are as far apart as cats and dogs on politics,relgion...BUT!- I agree with this-by Ronald Reagan.....


Small | Large


Best speech Reagan ever made. We all need to get together. Now I sound like a hippie. Ugh.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2010, 09:23:19 PM »

Who says we have to agree to be friends, RC? Cheers
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2010, 12:13:37 PM »

Quote
I'm sorry, did I say hissy fir? namecalling is a p**sY fit.

if that's true then you just called yourself a name.

Quote
Again you conveniently take me out of context.


thats the point.  the context doesn't matter. If you believe in taking the gloves off you believe in it. If you don't you don't.  I'm opposed to abu graib for the same reason I'm opposed to the stuff you were talking about. Principles don't change if they are principles.


Quote
If we got Saddam then, we wouldn't have had this BS NOW..

if we had taken out saddam then we would have had the iraq post war hell but in the 90's. it would have ruined that decade the same way it ended up ruining the 00's.  Cheney said Saddam wasn't worth one american life and he was absolutely right. The shias and sunnis didn't like each other any more in the 90's and the muslims ,al queda and otherwise, didn't like the US anymore then either.

Quote
So we back down to the press?

 the press doesn't define public opinion. Most of the media and most leftists were opposed to the previously mentioned war, gulf 1, and we still one that.  and there were very few protests about vietnam till it was several years old.  

and about the only mainstream commentator I can recall who was against the iraq war publicily was Patrick Buchanan and it still went the way it did.

Quote
Put the muzzle on them like was done in WW2. The press had rules back then.


lol  okay put the muzzle on the INTERNET.  THat strategy worked real well for the soviets union, particularly in afghanistan. not a peep from the USSR press about what was gong on there.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2010, 04:51:05 PM »

Quote
I'm sorry, did I say hissy fir? namecalling is a p**sY fit.

if that's true then you just called yourself a name.

Oh OK, so because I mis-spelled hissy fit means I'm dumb? I was referring to your hissy fit where you called me a blow-hard and a wuss, and how, in speaking in terms of you, I shouldn't have said you were having a hissy fit, but a p*ssy fit.  NO, it's still about you, not me.

Quote
Again you conveniently take me out of context.

thats the point.  the context doesn't matter. If you believe in taking the gloves off you believe in it. If you don't you don't.  I'm opposed to abu graib for the same reason I'm opposed to the stuff you were talking about. Principles don't change if they are principles.

Well I'm sure if you're that opposed to Abu Ghraib, perhaps you'd like to defer to the people who were beheaded by Al Qaeda in Iraq?  A bit of humiliation warranted beheadings?  At least the Abu Ghraib people are still alive.

Quote
If we got Saddam then, we wouldn't have had this BS NOW..

if we had taken out saddam then we would have had the iraq post war hell but in the 90's. it would have ruined that decade the same way it ended up ruining the 00's.

Well we had the coalition, we had the pre-Clinton military numbers, and we easily could have gotten the job done because we had the numbers back then. Iran was NOT a threat like they were now, and the other Arab states were behind the move. It was a missed oppurtunity. We had the chance to make Iraq a pro-American ally then.


Quote
So we back down to the press?

the press doesn't define public opinion. Most of the media and most leftists were opposed to the previously mentioned war, gulf 1, and we still one that.  and there were very few protests about vietnam till it was several years old.

But the press and the media can turn public opinion. Noone seems to understand that. There have beenmany good causes that went South because the media lit the fire under the right people, fed the reaction, and reaped the rewards of the deliberately calculated interference they planned.


Quote
Put the muzzle on them like was done in WW2. The press had rules back then.


lol  okay put the muzzle on the INTERNET.  THat strategy worked real well for the soviets union, particularly in afghanistan. not a peep from the USSR press about what was gong on there.

Well, had there been stronger methods in place, maybe Wikileaks might not have happened. But no, liberty came over safety, and now we have a virtual World Royal Rumble on our hands because one man did this. 

Now we have the possibility of every nation in the world turning on each other because of the distrust this man has created.

Is it really worth all of this just because some selfish bastards wanted to know what was happening?
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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »

but if name calling is throwing a hissy fit and you called me a p***y then you also threw one.

Quote
Well we had the coalition, we had the pre-Clinton military numbers, and we easily could have gotten the job done because we had the numbers back then. Iran was NOT a threat like they were now, and the other Arab states were behind the move. It was a missed oppurtunity. We had the chance to make Iraq a pro-American ally then.


this is exactly the type of thinking that led poeple to belive the iraq war wuold be a cakewalk.

Quote
There have beenmany good causes that went South because the media lit the fire under the right people, fed the reaction, and reaped the rewards of the deliberately calculated interference they planned.

that's how the ball bouces. it's called life. I know how the media does things. I supported Ron pual in 2008. We would have thousands and thousands of peoples at rallies and the meida didn't care. It was annoying but we kept going and now the guy is a mid level rock star

Quote
But no, liberty came over safety, and now we have a virtual World Royal Rumble on our hands because one man did this. 


good. we need a royal rumble.


If they don't want to be exposed as the treachorous two faced people they are they should stop being so treachorous and two faced.

Shut down the CIA and the state department if wikileaks is such a threat. Everyone in the government should quit and get real jobs and let the people of the world get on with their lives.
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Flick James
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« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2010, 06:19:38 PM »

Umaril and lester: I hope you will entertain my analysis of your ping-pong battle. It's mine alone, and feel free to tell me to f**k off if you like. I won't be offended.

Umaril: I understand your patriotism and dedication. I would not dream to question it. I think where you cannot find common ground with lester is that lester, as far as I can ascertain, is a true libertarian, and objectivist to the core. I share a lot of his fundamental principles. The problem is, these objectivist principles can come across as unpatriotic to some, because a true objectivist is going to question government actions at every turn. It is my opinion that, because of this posture, lester probably sees you as an unquestioning patriot, which may be a bit unfair.

Now, these are how your posts to one another come across to me. I am but one person.

Lester: you have a critical eye that I think outdoes my own. Like I said before, on a fundamental level you and I have much in common, despite a few minor details we may not see eye to eye on, which probably don't matter anyway. You are very hard-nosed (much like myself), but sometimes it seems almost to a fault. You are very passionate about your views, but sometimes I think you could benefit from some effort in trying to find a common ground. This does not mean you have to compromise your views, it simply means that at some point, argument must make an effort at gaining understanding rather than further polarizing two people that don't necessarily have to be polarized.

One of my all-time favorite quotes is from F. Scott Fitzgerald, which to me has always illustrated the finest way to approach any debate:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

Then again, perhaps I have completely misread the situation.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2010, 06:28:27 PM »

I'm not offended by that at all but I have to say I would not call myself an objectivist because I don't even know what one is. I came to libertarianism not via ayn rand and I still have not read any of her books. anarchist would be closer to the mark but then that is frought with bad connotations. Umaril and I have common ground on civil war revisionism so there's hope.
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2010, 09:43:42 AM »

but if name calling is throwing a hissy fit and you called me a p***y then you also threw one.

Again, YOU threw the first punch. I countered. Don't cry because you got a bloody nose.

Nice playground tactics...fall down and tell everyone you're OK, then go in and tell your mom that I punched you.  Again, you called me names first.  You owe ME the apology.


Quote
Well we had the coalition, we had the pre-Clinton military numbers, and we easily could have gotten the job done because we had the numbers back then. Iran was NOT a threat like they were now, and the other Arab states were behind the move. It was a missed oppurtunity. We had the chance to make Iraq a pro-American ally then.

this is exactly the type of thinking that led poeple to belive the iraq war wuold be a cakewalk.

Gulf War 1. You know which one I'm talking about. Again, nice try to conflate the two.

Quote
There have beenmany good causes that went South because the media lit the fire under the right people, fed the reaction, and reaped the rewards of the deliberately calculated interference they planned.

that's how the ball bouces. it's called life. I know how the media does things.

Then don't complain about the CIA and America then, because if you suport the media, you support the biggest liars of all.  Good call, Les.


Quote
But no, liberty came over safety, and now we have a virtual World Royal Rumble on our hands because one man did this. 

good. we need a royal rumble.

So you WANT a World War?  Over your selfish needs to pry into things that aren't your business?  Great, we'll all know who to thank when the mushroom clouds start popping up everywhere, Thanks people like you and ASS-ange for your part in it. The human race thanks you for your part in our forthcoming extinction.

Just remember one thing: when the game is over, the King and the Pawn go back in the same box, and you'll be just another nobody like everyone else.

If they don't want to be exposed as the treachorous two faced people they are they should stop being so treachorous and two faced.

That's not for you to decide. You are not a politician. You are meant to know certain things, but not ALL things. Any why is it that it's only OK for the LEFT to have a right to know, but when the Right wants to know something, it's none of our business?

And as far as being "treacherous and two-faced", I suppose the fact that the Media gave Bill Clinton rock star status for his Whitehouse follies with Monica was a great example of keeping people honest?  Did you support THAT?

Oh but I forgot, it was HIS business, but yet if a Bill was a Right-Winger he'd be treated like crap.

You're such a fuc*in' hypocrite.

Shut down the CIA and the state department if wikileaks is such a threat. Everyone in the government should quit and get real jobs and let the people of the world get on with their lives.

You would LOVE an America w\o  a CIA and State Dept,.wouldn't you? Then we can be taken over by everyone from every part of the world. That's what you want, isn't it? Some foreign enemy to walk in and save us from ourselves?  Just remember that when Chinese soldiers begin landing in our backyard..

I'm not saying that there ISN'T dishonesty, but it's not your call (or wikileaks) to judge the world stage as 100% dishonest, in every case. That's what you're doing.

Have you (or anyone else) ever one thought about how much of Wikleaks is deliberate, bald faced lies aimed at intentional defamation, and not the real truth? 

Most likely NOT, because of your asinine desire to let the world go to hell in a handbag as long as YOU get YOUR personal material\narcotic\spiritual satisfaction for the day.

How much of it is for personal revenge, and not the actual truth? And you're willing to roll with LIES in the name of honesty and security? Dosen't that make YOU just as bad as the individuals you target thru Wikileaks?  Again, you're such a hypocrite. 

 







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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2010, 10:14:13 AM »


I'm not saying that there ISN'T dishonesty, but it's not your call (or wikileaks) to judge the world stage as 100% dishonest, in every case. That's what you're doing.

Have you (or anyone else) ever one thought about how much of Wikleaks is deliberate, bald faced lies aimed at intentional defamation, and not the real truth? 


To be fair, thus far at least it seems like its all legitimate.  Wikileaks attempts to fact check where possible [though with hundreds of thousands of documents, they probably can't get them all checked] and the most telling thing of all is that nobody from Government has claimed they are lies, which is essentially saying 'yup this is true'.

Sure, they're pushing an agenda, but considering that's one of transparency and openness in government it would be pretty ironic if they are hiding some hidden nefarious ulterior motive...
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Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2010, 10:26:41 AM »

Umaril and lester: I hope you will entertain my analysis of your ping-pong battle. It's mine alone, and feel free to tell me to f**k off if you like. I won't be offended.

Why would I get mad at you? You're only seeing it the way you see it. You did nothing wrong.  you're good with me.  Cheers

Umaril: I understand your patriotism and dedication. I would not dream to question it. I think where you cannot find common ground with lester is that lester, as far as I can ascertain, is a true libertarian, and objectivist to the core. I share a lot of his fundamental principles. The problem is, these objectivist principles can come across as unpatriotic to some, because a true objectivist is going to question government actions at every turn. It is my opinion that, because of this posture, lester probably sees you as an unquestioning patriot, which may be a bit unfair.

This is gonna get long, so hold on to your steering wheel.

Les IS being unfair. He's throwing everything I say under the bus to suit his own beliefs that any defense of America is patritoic extremism.   And about his hero ASS-ange:

Has Les EVER thought that Wikileaks is forging some of these document to add lies to the truth to create a bigger snowball that was originally thrown?   

And if he knows this (and continues to support it) then he has no right to criticize the CIA or any other US entity as "liars"  because HE is supporting the lies of Wikileaks in an effort to defame and instigate for his own selfish purposes.

And that is the difference between him and me: I am not speaking out of selfishness.  I don't believe that people should just do whatever they want, or let a system go
to hell in a handbag as long as I get my way for the day. Les apparently DOES.

Oh and a word about  his "Objective Questioning." 

Les is deliberately using questioning to reject any truth around him, and not for purposes of finding the truth.

I've had experience with his kind: I used to have a friend that did that all the time.. "yeah BUT, yeah, BUT"

These people are called "right fighters" because no matter how right the other person is, they deliberately try to force the door open to try to reinforce that THEY are right, and will not stop until they accomplish one of two goals:

A: Either force the other person to drop the issue out of frustration, or B: They have created the illusion that they ARE right, and use that to continue their little rejection of everything around them, to concentrate on their own little world.

And that is a form of Sociopathy because it promotes selfishness and self-centeredness, with antagonization and instigation as tools to provoke anger in a further effort to say they were right about their opponents.

Les really needs to grow up.



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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
Umaril The Unfeathered
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« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2010, 10:48:51 AM »


I'm not saying that there ISN'T dishonesty, but it's not your call (or wikileaks) to judge the world stage as 100% dishonest, in every case. That's what you're doing.

Have you (or anyone else) ever one thought about how much of Wikleaks is deliberate, bald faced lies aimed at intentional defamation, and not the real truth? 


To be fair, thus far at least it seems like its all legitimate.  Wikileaks attempts to fact check where possible [though with hundreds of thousands of documents, they probably can't get them all checked] and the most telling thing of all is that nobody from Government has claimed they are lies, which is essentially saying 'yup this is true'.

Sure, they're pushing an agenda, but considering that's one of transparency and openness in government it would be pretty ironic if they are hiding some hidden nefarious ulterior motive...

So, to this way of thinking,  Les and Wikileaks are right to question authority and the government, but I (and others like myself) are wrong to question their motives of alleged "honesty" and "transparency"? Sorry, dosen't add up.

As to the Government not saying anything, that should NOT be an admission of guilt.

There are thousands of documents, as you said.  The dust needs to settle.  And just because the finish line can't be seen yet, does NOT mean that Les' team has won, OR that they are right about everything they percieve as "the truth." 

I would like to hear Les if Julian Assange and Wikileaks were Right-wing. Then, it would all be "a bunch of lies." 

I suppose, in his efforts to support "honesty" and "transparency" I wonder if Lester remembers that Obama and Congress deliberately filled the Healthcare Law with 2,000-some pages of legal mumbo jumbo?

And, that that mumbo-jumbo was a deliberate attempt to stall for time to interpret the deliberate and well-placed gray areas in the bill, while Harry Reid and crew used that time to push it thru Congress and into "law."

OR, that the bill was unconstitutional in it's forcing upon the American public?

Is Wikileaks saying anything about THAT?  Just wondering...

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Tam-Riel na nou Sancremath.
Dawn's Beauty is our shining home.

An varlais, nou bala, an kynd, nou latta.
The stars are our power, the sky is our light.

Malatu na nou karan.
Truth is our armor.

Malatu na bala
Truth is power.

Heca, Pellani! Agabaiyane Ehlnadaya!
Be gone, outsiders! I do not fear your mortal gods!

Auri-El na nou ata, ye A, Umaril, an Aran!
Aure-El is our father, and I, Umaril, the king!
lester1/2jr
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« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2010, 10:55:50 AM »

Quote
You owe ME the apology.


I did apologize several pages ago. i don't expect the same from you though your calling me a p***y and now a f**kin hypocrite is way worse than anythign I said. You've really made quite an entrence for yourself on this forum sir
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Gulf War 1. You know which one I'm talking about. Again, nice try to conflate the two.

They are the same thing.. It's the same country.  If we'd "finished the job" in the 90's  we would have occupied Baghdad in the 90's. The equation was the same, same people same place. Al queda was in existence.  

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Then don't complain about the CIA and America then, because if you suport the media, you support the biggest liars of all.  Good call, Les.


does anyone know what umaril is saying here? supporting trhe media? you mean supporting free speech? I don't know what you are talking about seriously.

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So you WANT a World War?

I want to prevent a world war

 
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Over your selfish needs to pry into things that aren't your business?

 they are very much my business.

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The human race thanks you for your part in our forthcoming extinction.

lol you're welcome. but it's the guys in the think tanks in DC and the senate who you should be thanking. they're the ones starting the wars. The only war i'm fighting is on them.

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Any why is it that it's only OK for the LEFT to have a right to know, but when the Right wants to know something, it's none of our business?


I think everyone shuold know everything.

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I suppose the fact that the Media gave Bill Clinton rock star status for his Whitehouse follies with Monica was a great example of keeping people honest?  Did you support THAT?

Oh but I forgot, it was HIS business, but yet if a Bill was a Right-Winger he'd be treated like crap.

You're such a fuc*in' hypocrite.

was there something ELSE about that affair you needed to know?? I think we got the gist of it in the Starr report. The guy lied under oath. This is ancient history and I'm a registered republican fyi.

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Just remember that when Chinese soldiers begin landing in our backyard..

I doubt that would happen unless they want to come into posssession of about 14 trillion in debt.

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Have you (or anyone else) ever one thought about how much of Wikleaks is deliberate, bald faced lies aimed at intentional defamation, and not the real truth?

I don't think anyone has made that claim. If they feel they have been lied about they should say so. I don't think there is any speculation that the documents aren't genuine is there?

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personal material\narcotic\spiritual satisfaction for the day.


??
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 10:59:35 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

lester1/2jr
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
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« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2010, 10:57:58 AM »

at any rate regarding this topic. what can Europe do but have more children? They can adjust their immigation policies and make immigration to their country from non western, potentially non capitalist people less attractive by offering less in welfare benefits but at the end of the day their population is dying out because they aren't reproducing enough for replacement.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 11:01:05 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

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