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Author Topic: My State's Schools Are Shutting Down  (Read 3377 times)
Nukie 2
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 03:28:13 PM »

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these unions aren't protesting any corporation, they are protesting the governor of wisconsin. I don't se where their benefits and pensions have had any affect on those in the private sector non unionized work force. Those benefits have all but collapsed.

If you look at this as only an isolated event and not factor in the crackdown on unions over time and not how public sector unions are the only type that can bargain collectively, then it won't make sense to you. How the people respond to the governors actions in Wisconsin will send a message to governors in other states as to how far they can go to gut unions-- both private and public.


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Well if he wasn't popular then how did he manage to get elected to the job of governor? He is doing now what he did then. I assume he didn't create an entirely new persona for himself.

Evidently for his other policies as this "silent majority" doesn't wish to show their support on this issue.

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I don't know that they will. It wouldn't change mine.
I don't understand your Libertarian logic-- let's send in a government agency to disperse protesters who are protesting the actions of the governor.

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good. They public sector unions are totally corrupt. They work to elect people who will give them good deals.

How dare they elect people that represent their interests!

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They can quit if they don't like it.

Quit and go to which workplace that comes with a union that has collective bargaining?

l
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ol so why not tax everyone at 100 percent and give all the money to goverment employees to spend??  There' a budget shortfall and they have to meet it. They dont' call it a correction for nothing. You cut what is causing the biggest headache in this case it's government pensions. They are driving many states to the brink of bankruptcy.


I say tax the wealthy and businesses more, as they aren't enticed to hire with their profits on the stock market or their new tax incentives.
I believe the government should employ people; that way citizens will have money to buy crap; when demand for goods increases much more and then when all these boomers retire businesses will have to hire, but at least the labor force will be experienced. THEN taxes should be cut on businesses and the wealthy. But as of now it's a really crappy time.

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In our state we have a weekend where there is no sales tax and guess what, people spend more. obvious solution: end all sales tax all the time!  If you people to spend make things cheaper. and make sure they understand that this will go on for the foreseeable future so they can make long term plans around this new status quo.  

If you end sales taxes all the time people will begin to expect lower prices and then demand will stabilize causing economic growth to stagnate in this respect. This is what we call "rational expectations".

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we are pushing the burder off workers and onto the government, who are the ones who wasted it.

I'm for making politicians pay into their benefits, but were talking about garbage men, cops, fire-fighters, teachers-- the classic examples of who were once the thriving working class, so well off in fact they were called "middle-class". The lower classes were one of the sectors most hard hit by the great recession-- the hardest hit was the working-poor.

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The wealthy didn't cause the recession. How does working hard and excelling at something cause a recession?  The recession was a result of the federal reserve keeping interest rates too low for too long and purposely fueling a real estate boom. wall street and washington were joined at the hip. it had nothing to do with random wealthy people in WISCONSIN.

Yes it wasn't the entire wealthy populace of the USA that invested into a plethora of complicated financial instruments, but it was that section of the wealthy who benefited the most from on and speculated that the cost of mortgages would increase and so they did, and the people who took out the ARMs couldn't pay the rapidly increasing rates and so defaulted or were kicked out their homes-- these people were told it was safe because interest rates wouldn't rise so much over the term of repayment. The debts grew so much that it was larger than the overall wealth our economy is capable of producing in monetarized terms.

When we're talking about unions we're talking about class-politics, and were looking at the events as to why were at this point we're at now.
Were at a deficit because among many things people need their unemployment benefits, and they had to be extended because for 4 years there hasn't been enough hires to decrease the unemployment rate substantially to allow for enough economic growth which increases the tax base to hopefully pay back the debts.But whose being punished here? The workers, which contain the people who took out ARMs. not the wealthy, which contain the people who benefited from speculation on the ARMs and repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act. I don't see why it is fair to punish the workers.

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rich people paid for those bail outs too. The bail outs were totally wrong. Again two wrongs don't make a right. we aren't going to bail out people who work 9 months a year to make SUV payments when tens of millions are out of work. Not with my tax dollars.

Yeah who needs sanitation workers, cops, firefighters, or teachers. They aren't all politicians.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2011, 04:11:13 PM »

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If you look at this as only an isolated event and not factor in the crackdown on unions over time and not how public sector unions are the only type that can bargain collectively, then it won't make sense to you. How the people respond to the governors actions in Wisconsin will send a message to governors in other states as to how far they can go to gut unions-- both private and public.

good. look at Detroit, that's where "strong" bullying unions get you. I hope this does send them a message.



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Evidently for his other policies as this "silent majority" doesn't wish to show their support on this issue.

in what way? counter protesting? They had something better to do. The protest was the last election.


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I don't understand your Libertarian logic-- let's send in a government agency to disperse protesters who are protesting the actions of the governor.

If the governor is forced to use forcet o back up his decision than that's what he has to do. it's legal. The implication is that I would have some sort of sympathy for these people if they start breaking stuff and no I don't.


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How dare they elect people that represent their interests!

they use our tax dollars to elect people that will gie them more of our tax dollars. the taxpayers have been virtually eliminated from the equation.


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Quit and go to which workplace that comes with a union that has collective bargaining?

quit and go work anyplace they want or nowhere. if they can find a better deal they can take it. If not tough. That's how the market works.


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I say tax the wealthy and businesses more, as they aren't enticed to hire with their profits on the stock market or their new tax incentives.

how will taxing them more make them hire more?

If I had to pay more in taxes I certainly wouldn't spend more. I wouldn't have more to spend.

How will making the rich pay more taxes help the economy?

If not, the only rationalization left is that the teachers unions should in essence be bailed out by the rich people of Wisconsin. Question: wheres my bailout? The state at ALL its levels has no right to be in a protective bubble. Let the teachers firefighters janitors AND senators and everyone go through the same recession we are.

I have a college education I'll go to Wisconsin and work for half of whatever those guys are making. millions will.


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I believe the government should employ people;;
by taking money from other citizens?
 
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when demand for goods increases much more and then when all these boomers retire businesses will have to hire, but at least the labor force will be experienced.
lol they can get experience working at real companies.

 
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THEN taxes should be cut on businesses and the wealthy. But as of now it's a really crappy time.

well again, you think raising taxes on the wealthy will HELP the economy? We are at what 10% unemployment and you think raising taxes on the people who are at least potentially hiring will make them MORE likely to hire?



You know who suffers from raising taxes on the wealthy the most? charities.

think about that. Do you want less money going to charities!!

 

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If you end sales taxes all the time people will begin to expect lower prices and then demand will stabilize causing economic growth to stagnate in this respect. This is what we call "rational expectations".

no it won't. If I make the same amount of money and have a larger percentage to spend week after week I will spend more week after week. If I start saving more that will have a positive effect on interest rates. Even if I put it in my mattress that will have a positive effect on inflation.



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I'm for making politicians pay into their benefits, but were talking about garbage men, cops, fire-fighters, teachers-- the classic examples of who were once the thriving working class, so well off in fact they were called "middle-class". The lower classes were one of the sectors most hard hit by the great recession-- the hardest hit was the working-poor.

In Wisconsin and other places they haven't been hit by it at all. How has Nancy Pelosi been hit by the recession? How have military contractors? The government hasn't taken any hits that I can see. taxing the working poor and their rich potential employers or customers to pay for public employees who are doing fine is not going to be any comfort to them.



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Yes it wasn't the entire wealthy populace of the USA that invested into a plethora of complicated financial instruments, but it was that section of the wealthy who benefited the most from on and speculated that the cost of mortgages would increase and so they did, and the people who took out the ARMs couldn't pay the rapidly increasing rates and so defaulted or were kicked out their homes-- these people were told it was safe because interest rates wouldn't rise so much over the term of repayment. The debts grew so much that it was larger than the overall wealth our economy is capable of producing in monetarized terms.

bottom line is the recession happened because of the ridiculous real estate boom which was given steroids by Alan greenspan and his buddies in DC and Wall Street. It's not the fault of "rich people".

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Were at a deficit because among many things people need their unemployment benefits, and they had to be extended because for 4 years there hasn't been enough hires to decrease the unemployment rate substantially to allow for enough economic growth which increases the tax base to hopefully pay back the debts.But whose being punished here? The workers, which contain the people who took out ARMs. not the wealthy, which contain the people who benefited from speculation on the ARMs and repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act. I don't see why it is fair to punish the workers.

the moral issues of the real estate boom and bust have nothing to do with Wisconsin's budget shortfall. they need x amount of money and the economy can't bear more tax raises. So they have to make cuts. and everyone knows teachers unions have been given ridiculous deals for a long time and now the time has come to trim and they are first in line because there is the most there.

teachers unions make mediocrity status quo. Theres little incentive to do better and it's our children who suffer. One way or another it was going to be time to deal with them and now we have no choice because cuts MUST be made.

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Yeah who needs sanitation workers, cops, firefighters, or teachers. They aren't all politicians.

It's all the same economy. You don't get to  escape from it by working for the state.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 04:30:57 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Nukie 2
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« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 02:27:09 PM »

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good. look at Detroit, that's where "strong" bullying unions get you. I hope this does send them a message.
What, having work outsourced? No, they fought tooth and nail, it just became cheaper to transport jobs to developing countries.
And now we're paying for it because they pay the workers nil in developing countries, so they have very little incentive to do a decent job on the goods; we're also paying for it because thanks to decline in the presence of unions real wages have been declining since 1972, while our productivity is souring-- so we're incredibly under-rewarded.

From what I gather you seem to view conflict in our society only between government and market, like there isn't any class-conflict.

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in what way? counter protesting? They had something better to do. The protest was the last election.

Popularity changes all the time.

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If the governor is forced to use forcet o back up his decision than that's what he has to do. it's legal. The implication is that I would have some sort of sympathy for these people if they start breaking stuff and no I don't.

I just think it's funny that you like government all of a sudden.

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they use our tax dollars to elect people that will gie them more of our tax dollars. the taxpayers have been virtually eliminated from the equation.
Cops and Firefighters have very risky jobs, if the pay was crap what would be the incentive to be a good cop or save you from being crispy?
Pay and benefits are supposed to compensate for risk. There are just some things that the government should provide as a public good.
Besides, you're acting like most government workers are paid six figures; most aren't and most government workers are there because of the benefits, otherwise they'd go elsewhere.


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quit and go work anyplace they want or nowhere. if they can find a better deal they can take it. If not tough. That's how the market works.
The free-market doesn't and never has existed, there are interlocking directorates and powerful lobby's that influence wages and conditions of work. Most firms nowadays are monopolistic competitors and oligopolies; the firms that are perfect competitors are ridiculously rare.
The only reason why we have minimum wages; sick days; vacation; pregnancy leave, retirement and so forth are because union fought for them. Now that unions are disappearing so are these rights and amenities. I support unions as a way to balance power in this society where free-markets do not and never have existed.

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how will taxing them more make them hire more?

The depends on how much the increase in demand is from consumers-- who are also now employed workers. But in any case they'll have to hire more people in the future because the baby boomers are going to retire, and it's possible there may be a labor shortage when that happens -- we may God forbid have to let in more immigrants!

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If I had to pay more in taxes I certainly wouldn't spend more. I wouldn't have more to spend.

Eh, the rich aren't investing in capital anyhow, and they have the money to do so.

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How will making the rich pay more taxes help the economy?
Government will hire workers only till when the climate looks better like for a year or two.

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If not, the only rationalization left is that the teachers unions should in essence be bailed out by the rich people of Wisconsin. Question: wheres my bailout? The state at ALL its levels has no right to be in a protective bubble. Let the teachers firefighters janitors AND senators and everyone go through the same recession we are.

What like teacher's, firefighters, janitors, and cops haven't experienced speed ups and having to do the job of three other people.

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I have a college education I'll go to Wisconsin and work for half of whatever those guys are making. millions will.
You wouldn't want to be a road-cop with your degree-- whatever it's in. You wouldn't be a cop, that's why you went to college.

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by taking money from other citizens?
Rich people who aren't hiring, this way they'll be hiring.
 
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lol they can get experience working at real companies.
Yes, rent-a-car, fast-food, and 100% commission sales.

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well again, you think raising taxes on the wealthy will HELP the economy? We are at what 10% unemployment and you think raising taxes on the people who are at least potentially hiring will make them MORE likely to hire?
No favorable policies have enticed them too, so yeah lets them, and use their tax-dollars to hire workers.

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You know who suffers from raising taxes on the wealthy the most? charities.

think about that. Do you want less money going to charities!!

Actually, no! If there wasn't a such thing as taxes, do you think corporations would bother to donate? No, they wouldn't. By increasing taxes we'd also increase corporate donations as they'd get tax write-offs.

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no it won't. If I make the same amount of money and have a larger percentage to spend week after week I will spend more week after week.
In the long-run more is bought however

Demand for the product will increase in the short-run as this is treated like an increase in income, but in the long-run the increase in demand will just increase the level of equilibrium for the market. Sales will not increase indefinitely.  

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If I start saving more that will have a positive effect on interest rates.
No it's the other way around, high interest rates are to entice people to save because they'll get more of a return for depositing their money as money is a scarce commodity in this respect.

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Even if I put it in my mattress that will have a positive effect on inflation
.
You're hoarding money; thereby making money a more scarce commodity which will cause the price-level to drop, the result may be deflation, but definitely not inflation. Inflation comes about because of a increase in the money supply.


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In Wisconsin and other places they haven't been hit by it at all. How has Nancy Pelosi been hit by the recession? How have military contractors? The government hasn't taken any hits that I can see. taxing the working poor and their rich potential employers or customers to pay for public employees who are doing fine is not going to be any comfort to them.

I'm talking about taxing the rich.

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bottom line is the recession happened because of the ridiculous real estate boom which was given steroids by Alan greenspan and his buddies in DC and Wall Street. It's not the fault of "rich people".

Isn't if funny that Greenspan was once corporate director of JP Morgan & Co-- like he wouldn't have any incentive or any interest to decrease interest rates, just like Henry Paulson who worked at Goldman Sachs had no interest in bailing the banks out? Again the theory interlocking-directorates, Hell even your buddy Murray Rothbard considered the Federal Reserve to be a cartel for private banks. The Fed had the interests of Wall Street at hand when they did this. These banks were getting rich which ARMS, and saying "Oh well the interest rates are low, you'll be able to pay it off", meanwhile the mortgages were packaged into complicated financial instruments which  investors speculated on and inflated the prices much higher than they should've been. The higher prices on the financial instruments made it so that the ARMs kept increasingly high and so borrowers just couldn't pay their ever increasing debts.

In summary the fed raising interest rates was part of it, but it wasn't the whole thing, it only gave to justification to entice homeowners to take out ARMs.

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the moral issues of the real estate boom and bust have nothing to do with Wisconsin's budget shortfall. they need x amount of money and the economy can't bear more tax raises.
And why are we in a budget short-fall, because people need government services because of the effects of the economic crisis.

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So they have to make cuts. and everyone knows teachers unions have been given ridiculous deals for a long time and now the time has come to trim and they are first in line because there is the most there.

I was the very worst student in high school, no way in hell did any of my teachers think they had a fair gig. I think it's absolutely hilarious what you're saying. You have to go through an extra year of college in order to be a teacher, then you have to get certified in the state you wish to teach in. Now there's s**t-loads of stigma attached to be a teacher; that they're all whores and perverts. They probably get yelled at more than the person behind the counter at McDonalds.

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Theres little incentive to do better and it's our children who suffer. One way or another it was going to be time to deal with them and now we have no choice because cuts MUST be made.
You're just saying inflammatory stuff and not demonstrating logic or making an argument.

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It's all the same economy. You don't get to  escape from it by working for the state.
Right, that's why there's been freezing of new hires, speed-ups, furloughs, and other such things.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 06:44:01 PM »

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What, having work outsourced? No, they fought tooth and nail, it just became cheaper to transport jobs to developing countries.

That's not what happened to Detroit. Under the unions they turned out crappy cars and paid workers tons to do it. Americans bought elsehwere because the quality was better and the prices were lower.



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And now we're paying for it because they pay the workers nil in developing countries, so they have very little incentive to do a decent job on the goods;

well thats true in the case of chinese stuff but thats because they have to use cheap stuf because no one has any money. The workers in China were making nothing a generation ago and what they make relative to where they are is a fantastic wage. There is very little disutility of labor in China. They are in their industrial revolution.

I agree about the disintegrating quality of goods but it has to do with our economy and priorities (war), not China.  

 
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we're also paying for it because thanks to decline in the presence of unions real wages have been declining since 1972, while our productivity is souring-- so we're incredibly under-rewarded.

the growth in government and inflation is to blame for that. 4 trillion gets sucked out of the economy to pay for all this junk when most of what the federal government does is useless outside of social security and so forth. and don't get me started on all that.

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From what I gather you seem to view conflict in our society only between government and market, like there isn't any class-conflict.

that's accurate.

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Besides, you're acting like most government workers are paid six figures; most aren't and most government workers are there because of the benefits, otherwise they'd go elsewhere.


so what I or you or anyone else does isn't valuable? Why is that Nancy Pelosi or Rand Paul make 175,000 with insane benefits that a totally recession proof while the rest of us unless we are lucky make much less than that with crap benefits.  Their salaries would make sense if we were experiencing 20% growth a year. The teachers and so forth are similarly innoculated from reality. They can't even be fired practically after they get tenure.


If we ALL made as much as they did there would be much less to compain about but sorry, tens of milions of americans are out of work, the curve has shifted downwards, wether there are rich people who make millions is of no consequence. They pay plenty.

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The only reason why we have minimum wages; sick days; vacation; pregnancy leave, retirement and so forth are because union fought for them.

that's not true at all. They have them because companies who try to get people to work 7 days a week will lose to companies that favor 5 days a week. People don't need to work 7 days a week because they generally don't need that much money and don't find the trade off worth it.

maybe unions came up with the idea for weekends but the market enabled that idea to exist.

Of course, in our current economy many people have foregone sick days, vacation and even pregnancy leaves and retirements out of sheer necessity, if they are even offered them.

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Government will hire workers only till when the climate looks better like for a year or two.


to quote I believe lew Rockwell, would you want to fly on a government airline? These are not highly efficent people and their decision making process is by nature utterly mediocre and done by committte. real business looks nothing like it. They should stick to things that at least won't fall out of the sky on our heads, like warehousing our kids in their prison-schools.

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Yes, rent-a-car, fast-food, and 100% commission sales.

you have a pretty dismal view of capitalism.

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Actually, no! If there wasn't a such thing as taxes, do you think corporations would bother to donate?

becuase they're so EVIL. what about rich people! ever heard of philanthropy? or is that a right wing myth.

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By increasing taxes we'd also increase corporate donations as they'd get tax write-offs.

thats not what happens for some reason. donations to charities go down.

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Demand for the product will increase in the short-run as this is treated like an increase in income, but in the long-run the increase in demand will just increase the level of equilibrium for the market. Sales will not increase indefinitely.  


sure they will. the economic growth from this will not cause inflation so people will have 100 dollars instead of 50 dollars extra to spend week after week. if that becomes the norm then good. more money being spent in stores is a good thing! If that's what you're going for.

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, the result may be deflation, but definitely not inflation.

right by positive effect on inflation I meant that inflation would be tamed.  So even if you don't spend anything and even if you don't even allow your money to be lent out you are doing a good thing. saving is good and should be encouraged.  That's a basic principle a caveman could understand.

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I'm talking about taxing the rich.

why? to keep a status quo in place that everyone knows is broken?

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Hell even your buddy Murray Rothbard considered the Federal Reserve to be a cartel for private banks.

I agree I am thoroughly anti federal reserve it is a cartel for private banks. and I agree with your characterization of the boom and bust.

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They probably get yelled at more than the person behind the counter at McDonalds.

because our schools are the most expensive in the wolrd and ranked like 80th. they are worse than our cars from detroit were!

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Right, that's why there's been freezing of new hires, speed-ups, furloughs, and other such things.

I bet the unemployment rate among government employees is a lot less than the private sector, if such a statistic existed.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 06:54:42 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Nukie 2
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 09:51:58 PM »


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the growth in government and inflation is to blame for that. 4 trillion gets sucked out of the economy to pay for all this junk when most of what the federal government does is useless outside of social security and so forth. and don't get me started on all that.

It has nothing to do with inflation, I said that since 1972 real wages have been declining while productivity has been soaring. Real wages specifically measure how much can be bought with an average hour of labor. Nominal wages are only effected by inflation, they involve a price.

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that's accurate.

But you agree that there were people in the Fed and Treasury who had interests that involved helping out their friends in financial firms. These guys and their friends went to prestigious schools and came from wealthy backgrounds, they were socialized into their ways of thinking and believing and keeping the company they keep. When they demonstrated the motives I mentioned, they demonstrated class interests. But that's not to say there isn't anyone in the government who has the interest of working people as their own.


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so what I or you or anyone else does isn't valuable? Why is that Nancy Pelosi or Rand Paul make 175,000 with insane benefits that a totally recession proof while the rest of us unless we are lucky make much less than that with crap benefits.
 
I never said that it wasn't fair that high level government officials can make what they make, and yes you're right, their privilege can make them indifferent to the plight of working people. But if I was wealthy and I wanted someone to look after my interests I wouldn't wan't to pay them dog biscuits.

However I did say that most people working for the government make peanuts but are in for the benefits.

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The teachers and so forth are similarly innoculated from reality. They can't even be fired practically after they get tenure.

The teachers I've seen who even get tenure are usually good at their job and like what they're doing-- if you had to work with hundreds of screaming brats all day, and grade those snot noses papers every weekend and over the holidays you wouldn't want to stay in that profession too long now would you. These guys have no social life, thats why a kid having blue-hair shocks half of them.

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that's not true at all. They have them because companies who try to get people to work 7 days a week will lose to companies that favor 5 days a week. People don't need to work 7 days a week because they generally don't need that much money and don't find the trade off worth it.

I'm not talking about weekends, I was talking about other benefits that unions fought for. Weekends are ingrained in social custom. But, nowadays most people are scared to express themselves when they're told to come in during weekends.

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but the market enabled that idea to exist.

Well they better, because there'd be an agreement for everyone to call out sick.

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Of course, in our current economy many people have foregone sick days, vacation and even pregnancy leaves and retirements out of sheer necessity, if they are even offered them.
Because they can't afford to. They use them and they may be threatened that they're gonna get fired.

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to quote I believe lew Rockwell, would you want to fly on a government airline? These are not highly efficent people and their decision making process is by nature utterly mediocre and done by committte. real business looks nothing like it.
Eh, it depends who they have running it, and what their qualifications are, how much transparency there is, what the incentives there are in place.

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They should stick to things that at least won't fall out of the sky on our heads, like warehousing our kids in their prison-schools.

You're comparing school to prison. You think you'd survive in prison.

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you have a pretty dismal view of capitalism.

No I'm indifferent to capitalism-- capitalism is capitalism; the market place evolved over time through human interaction. I'm definitely not proposing smashing the state and building a new system from scratch that no body has any idea how it'll function. But I will say that our politics are pretty screwed up, and that we deny that theres any dynamic of power over political decisions between groups with differing interests, so far the wealthy 1% have the most power. If we really want to have a democracy, then lets level the playing field.

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becuase they're so EVIL. what about rich people! ever heard of philanthropy? or is that a right wing myth.

Well, I dunno it's the right wing who say there's no such thing as altruism. But in the case of philanthropy, I wouldn't be surprised that with the removal of all tax-incentives we'll still see small businesses donating.

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thats not what happens for some reason. donations to charities go down.
No, I remember very well what I argued from a lecture I heard.

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sure they will. the economic growth from this will not cause inflation so people will have 100 dollars instead of 50 dollars extra to spend week after week. if that becomes the norm then good. more money being spent in stores is a good thing! If that's what you're going for.

The only thing that causes inflation is an increase in money supply ala Fed.

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right by positive effect on inflation I meant that inflation would be tamed.  So even if you don't spend anything and even if you don't even allow your money to be lent out you are doing a good thing.
Who are hearing this from? This looks like utter nonsense to me.

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saving is good and should be encouraged.
 
Savings is savings. Why would anyone save now, interest rates are the lowest they've ever been.

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why? to keep a status quo in place that everyone knows is broken?
But what is the status quo, what is an orange?


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They probably get yelled at more than the person behind the counter at McDonalds.

I say the problem with our education system is that it's funded by local property taxes. Areas with low property values will have crappy schools.

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I bet the unemployment rate among government employees is a lot less than the private sector, if such a statistic existed.
Then find it.
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 10:18:33 PM »



Quote
I bet the unemployment rate among government employees is a lot less than the private sector, if such a statistic existed.

Then find it.



Here ya go:

WSJ 2009 article

BigGovernment.com analysis of 2009 data

And this might be the one you are really interested in:

Public vs Private sector unemployment rates through July 2010

Summary:  For 2010 (through July), Public sector unemployment rates are roughly 3-5%; private sector are about 9-11%.

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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2011, 12:15:43 AM »

It doesn't make sense to compare the private and public unemployment rates, for one thing we have to look at how many there are in each sector-- these rates are ratios. Second, the work of public employees may be needed at this time, so it's like saying lets find a safe sector in the private employment market and say, "It's not fair that they aren't subject to the same consequences as everybody else". Fourth, this whole issue was an excuse to destroy the last remnants of unions, I support unions, unions are good for me-- so here's my snarky article to contribute to this thread's collection of snarky articles.

If you guys can post stuff from Ihategovernmentbecauseteacherssuck.com, I can post this
http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/83884/wisconsin-walker-public-worker-salary-benefit

I don't agree with their position of concessions being made.

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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2011, 12:26:51 AM »

Huh?

You asked for the stats and I posted just a few articles that showed them.  I intended nothing snarky at all (heck, I had not even been following this thread...I just happened to see your reply to Lester and your "challenge" for lack of a better word for actual data).

Where did I say I hate government and teachers suck? 

Geez.
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »

Quote
It has nothing to do with inflation, I said that since 1972 real wages have been declining while productivity has been soaring. Real wages specifically measure how much can be bought with an

two people on the internet disgree about the cause of something. this must be a first. Look gas prices went from under 2 dollars in 08 to almost 4 now. That means your standard of living has gone down unless you are a gas speculator. The economy is garbage, if you were unemployed in 08 you are probably still unemployed and now you get to pay twice as much for gas. So we can see how inflation robs you of your standard of living.

I bet if you tracked the rise of government spending and the rise of inflation it would correlate very strongly with the lowering of standard of living. thats all money being drained from the economy and value being drained from money.



Quote
But you agree that there were people in the Fed and Treasury who had interests that involved helping out their friends in financial firms. These guys and their friends went to prestigious schools and came from wealthy backgrounds, they were socialized into their ways of thinking and believing and keeping the company they keep. When they demonstrated the motives I mentioned, they demonstrated class interests. But that's not to say there isn't anyone in the government who has the interest of working people as their own.

The fed and the bankers and the government are the same thing. They are literally the same thing, many of them go back and forth from one to the other, Goldman being an obvious example. something like 5 out of the 6 wealthiest counties in the country are in and around DC. Those are the elites, ivy school guys. They bounce back and forth from wall street to the military industrial complex to the capitol.

This is in crontrast to rich people not involved with the state like, Steve jobs or something. People who are doing something useful that doesn't exist either because of taxpayer money or so you rub my back I rub yours deal with washington.

Quote
However I did say that most people working for the government make peanuts but are in for the benefits.


then they don't really make peanuts do they?

Quote
The teachers I've seen who even get tenure are usually good at their job and like what they're doing

There are tons of good teachers but you can't fairly say we have a overall very good education system. Have you seen "waiting for Superman"?

Quote
These guys have no social life, thats why a kid having blue-hair shocks half of them.

They work 9 months a year. The unions give them some pretty nice hours to, in some cases down to the SECOND like you can only work 7 hours 30 minutes and 30 seconds a day. We can get into the minutia of the problems with education system some other time, sufficet to say


Quote
But, nowadays most people are scared to express themselves when they're told to come in during weekends.

because the companies won't survive. If we lived in the Garden of Eden we could have 7 days off but the ceconomy completely stinks. If people don't work weekends now they don't have a place to come in to work on monday.

and again, if you can find another place to work that wants you to work 5 days a week you can work there. In a good economy there will be lots of places that will have all sorts of perks to try and get employees to work there. like higher wages!  Not so in downturns.

Quote
Eh, it depends who they have running it, and what their qualifications are, how much transparency there is, what the incentives there are in place.

It's a metaphor.

Quote
You're comparing school to prison. You think you'd survive in prison.

no, but I nearly didn't survive public school too.

Quote
so far the wealthy 1% have the most power

so don't buy Coke or use Google or buy an ipod if you don't like rich people. We can't help it if that what people want.

Quote
But in the case of philanthropy, I wouldn't be surprised that with the removal of all tax-incentives we'll still see small businesses donating.


for my OWN life when I have extra money I give more money to, say antiwar.com When I'm broke I can't afford too.

more to the point, if the safety net is elminated and we let people starve then we would have to live with the fact that  thats who we apparently are and we are terrible people.  I dn't think that is the reality.

Quote
Who are hearing this from? This looks like utter nonsense to me.

money in the bank is money the bank has available to lend. so if they have more money to lend then the interest rates will be lower. If you don't put your money in the bank you are at least taking dollars out of circulation. what i should have said was this has a positive effect on PRICES at least.

Quote
Savings is savings. Why would anyone save now, interest rates are the lowest they've ever been.

exactly. that's the problem

Quote
But what is the status quo,

the curent state of public education. and again, thats not a blanket statement in regard to ALL eduators or students.

Quote
I say the problem with our education system is that it's funded by local property taxes. Areas with low property values will have crappy schools.


if that were true we would have the best schools on Earth because we spend the most per capita and we don't. pouring money into a school system is not a formula for success.


Quote
I bet the unemployment rate among government employees is a lot less than the private sector, if such a statistic existed.
Then find it.

ulthar post backing up my claim


Quote
It doesn't make sense to compare the private and public unemployment rates

lol
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011, 05:01:31 PM »

Quote
two people on the internet disgree about the cause of something. this must be a first. Look gas prices went from under 2 dollars in 08 to almost 4 now. That means your standard of living has gone down unless you are a gas speculator. The economy is garbage, if you were unemployed in 08 you are probably still unemployed and now you get to pay twice as much for gas. So we can see how inflation robs you of your standard of living.

In the case of hyper-inflation this would be true, but usually paychecks are indexed for inflation in the long-run, it just takes time for wages and prices to adjust.

Quote
I bet if you tracked the rise of government spending and the rise of inflation it would correlate very strongly with the lowering of standard of living. thats all money being drained from the economy and value being drained from money.


Nothing "drains" the value from money....
Jeeeeesus:
http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Dummies-Business-Personal-Finance/dp/0470879483/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299013464&sr=8-1

Quote
This is in crontrast to rich people not involved with the state like, Steve jobs or something. People who are doing something useful that doesn't exist either because of taxpayer money or so you rub my back I rub yours deal with washington.
l
Puhlease everyone who owns a business and is making more than $50,000 a year will want someone to give them tax breaks and lower liabilities, so they'd like to have a lobby for senators.

Quote
then they don't really make peanuts do they?

Depends on how much they utilize their benefits.

Quote
There are tons of good teachers but you can't fairly say we have a overall very good education system. Have you seen "waiting for Superman"?

I've also seen public schools and how crappy and weird they can be. You don't even have to be qualified to teach in some of them. Like all middle-class people could afford awesome private schools, hah, the ones they'd get are Christian Schools that as long as the teacher knows the Bible cover to cover they can teach.

Quote
They work 9 months a year. The unions give them some pretty nice hours to, in some cases down to the SECOND like you can only work 7 hours 30 minutes and 30 seconds a day. We can get into the minutia of the problems with education system some other time, sufficet to say

Oh the luxurious life of a teacher.

Quote
because the companies won't survive. If we lived in the Garden of Eden we could have 7 days off but the ceconomy completely stinks. If people don't work weekends now they don't have a place to come in to work on monday.


No, in the Clinton era when there were record profits in some industries workers were working over-time all the time.

Quote
and again, if you can find another place to work that wants you to work 5 days a week you can work there. In a good economy there will be lots of places that will have all sorts of perks to try and get employees to work there. like higher wages!  Not so in downturns.

I don't care to talk about general characteristics of boom and bust, I'm talking about the trend since 1972 and how the decline of unions have made this trend possible.


Quote
no, but I nearly didn't survive public school too.

Most people survived public school.

Quote
so don't buy Coke or use Google or buy an ipod if you don't like rich people. We can't help it if that what people want.

Nothing to do with voting with your pocket book, but voting with your votes-- whose voted in and who they represent and why.
I didn't say I hated rich people, I said they have more income and power than they possibly need to live full-filling lives.

Quote
for my OWN life when I have extra money I give more money to, say antiwar.com When I'm broke I can't afford too.

If you're rich and you're given taxbreaks for donations, and the taxes increase you'll probably donate more.

Quote
more to the point, if the safety net is elminated and we let people starve then we would have to live with the fact that  thats who we apparently are and we are terrible people.  I dn't think that is the reality.

Read over this sentence again, the idea you're trying to get across isn't clear at all.

Quote
money in the bank is money the bank has available to lend. so if they have more money to lend then the interest rates will be lower. If you don't put your money in the bank you are at least taking dollars out of circulation.

http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Dummies-Business-Personal-Finance/dp/0470879483/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299013464&sr=8-1


Quote
the curent state of public education. and again, thats not a blanket statement in regard to ALL eduators or students.

Yes everyone needs to be so non-mainstream and anti-establishment like you, only then will everyones blind eyes open.

Quote
if that were true we would have the best schools on Earth because we spend the most per capita and we don't. pouring money into a school system is not a formula for success.

It's how it's spent and to whom the money goes to. When you push everything together like that into one pot you cant tell how much is spent for each school. Are you familiar with the statistical concepts: mean; median; mode?

Quote
I bet the unemployment rate among government employees is a lot less than the private sector, if such a statistic existed.
Then find it.

I honestly couldn't believe they would make an argument based on this to assert that there's too many government workers; but evidently they did because a lot of people like to believe they know a thing or two about statistics despite never taking a course or three. I guess I gave the teabagger's more credit than they deserved. 

Quote
ulthar post backing up my claim

Okay so theres a lower unemployment rate for government workers, what does it even prove?  First off there are fewer government workers then there are private sector workers, second there few economic substitutes in the services that government provides.

Quote
It doesn't make sense to compare the private and public unemployment rates

Quote
lol

Sure when you take my sentences out of context, and not consider what I said with it.

Read the dummies book and macro and microeconomic texts then get back to me okay! Wink Thumbup
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 05:50:53 PM »

Quote
but usually paychecks are indexed for inflation in the long-run


anyone heres paycheck indexed for inflation?  Thats great, the price of gas and milk  is going up but my paycheck is going to go up too! news to me. if you are not lucky enough to HAVE a paycheck well too bad. you still get to pay boom era prices for gas though.

Quote
Nothing "drains" the value from money....


yeah theres no such thing as inflation. you can still buy an ounce of gold for twenty greenback dollars you just have to know where to go. Everywhere else its 1400+

Quote
Depends on how much they utilize their benefits.



no it doesn't. I pay for health insurance and never use it. I still have to pay for it. It still has a worth of x amount of dollars a month. and I would assume pensions are utilized fully in all cases, unless the person dies. In the case of police they only have to work 20 years before they get retirement so that will prbobaly not be for a long time.


Quote
No, in the Clinton era when there were record profits in some industries workers were working over-time all the time.



to compete. You want to make all the stores close on Sundays or something? People on Wall street work ridiculous hours but they're young and full of themselves so I don't feel bad for them. I don't remember any outbreaks of child labor or unsafe working conditions in the 90's.

Peoples quality of life has gone down because things have started costing more.


Quote
If you're rich and you're given taxbreaks for donations, and the taxes increase you'll probably donate more.


thats crazy. if you have more money in your wallet you will have more to donate. If you raise taxes you will have less to give. and also less to spend on non charity things ie the economy. you are attempting to invert a very obvious point of fact.

raising taxes leads to belt tightening. the economy and charities do not benefit from this action.

plus they are trying to cut back the deductions cap anyway.


Quote



http://mises.org/resources/3250

Quote
Read over this sentence again, the idea you're trying to get across isn't clear at all.


It makes perfect sense.  we had something called the united states before we had social security and income taxes. People got sick and somehow they all didn't die.  We don't need the state to take nearly half of our money to prove we are good people. If it ends up that we are callous people who let our fellow man die in the street then thats what we were all along. I don't believe thats so.

I believe voluntary charity would in fact vastly exceed forced charity.


Quote
Okay so theres a lower unemployment rate for government workers, what does it even prove?  First off there are fewer government workers then there are private sector workers, second there few economic substitutes in the services that government provides.



whatever the ratio was before is the base. the private sector has cut x amount of jobs and the pubilc sector has lost half as many on ratio. It should be TWICE as many.


and DC and surrounding counties should be the POOREST districts in the country not the richest. and public employees should have wages and benefits comparable too, not exceeding the private sector.

A better solution would be to elmimnate public education entirely and allow the good teachers to make six figures and the bad / lazy / weird ones to find another line of work.


at any rate their is a gap in the budget and the people have decided taxes are high enough. cuts are going to happen. My macro prediction is this is going to be an era of cuts not raises.
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 06:14:56 PM »

Also, was there a nukie 2? I can't find it.
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2011, 11:43:42 PM »

No there never was a Nukie 2, it's a joke.

Your macro "prediction".

HAHAHAHAH Lookingup HAHAHAHAHA WTF are you some kind of econometrician, and then you fricken debate basic laws of economics.
I hate to be an @sshole, but for the love of God wiki: real wages; nominal wages or real versus nominal values; inflation; law of supply; law of demand.
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2011, 11:15:25 AM »

okay

law of supply

"As the price of a good increases, suppliers will attempt to maximize profits by increasing the quantity of the product sold.


okay

law of demand

"This law summarizes the effect price changes have on consumer behavior. For example, a consumer will purchase more pizzas if the price of pizza falls. The opposite is true if the price of pizza increases."

this is exactly what I was saying in regards to cutting sales tax which you argued against.

real wages

"The term real wages refers to wages that have been adjusted for inflation."

right. but this isn't what you were saying "adjusted for inflation meant" you implied that wages themselves changed when inflation occured. like if there was more inflation we would have higher paychecks which is not at all true.

in fact, real wages shows would show that wages are obviously LESS when inflation is factored in


inflation

"The rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services is rising, and, subsequently, purchasing power is falling"

as we have both been using it. The cause for this is

Quote
The Austrian School asserts that inflation is an increase in the money supply, rising prices are merely consequences and this semantic difference is important in defining inflation.[48] Austrians stress that inflation affects prices in various degree, i.e. that prices rise more sharply in some sectors than in other sectors of the economy. The reason for the disparity is that excess money will be concentrated to certain sectors, such as housing, stocks or health care. Because of this disparity, Austrians argue that the aggregate price level can be very misleading when observing the effects of inflation. Austrian economists measure inflation by calculating the growth of new units of money that are available for immediate use in exchange, that have been created over time



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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2011, 10:36:43 PM »

*sigh*
I'm certainly no educator. It's certainly all very complicated material. I shouldn't have unintentionally started a debate and thrown these concepts and jargon around thinking everyone understood them. But at the end of the day economics is really all very political, and people will support theories that reflect their personal biases and interests-- economists have never been very good at admitting this, but sociologists are always the first to. But I honestly believe we live in a class society, and those at the top have more in the way of power than the lower classes, I think we should have a balance of power, that's what democracy is all about, but what's profitable for those at the top isn't always good for everybody else.

Well no ones opinion is getting changed, and I doubt anyone else really gives a damn, these are political boards anyhow.

I'll just say one thing about real wages and inflation.

What I meant was when paychecks are indexed for inflation:

Theoretically-- inflation in this case being the over all increase in the price level. In the short-run you'll certainly feel like your money doesn't have as much purchasing power than it used to. But in the course of the long-run say maybe 3 months or even a year prices and wages increase to reflect the increase of the money supply in the economy. (EX: in the short run --10 minuets of your labor is worth $2.00 and you used to be able to buy an Asylum Film DVD with it, but now the DVD costs $2.03. In the long run you are paid $2.03 for 10 minuets of your labor, and now you can buy that DVD)

In Reality-- the FED prints more money, and the Bureau of Labor Statistics calculates the Consumer Price Index to see if there's an overall increase in inflation in the economy and how significant it is. If so, most likely you will now be paid a couple cents more each hour. However your increase in nominal wages probably wont be immediate as it takes time for the BLS to calculate this and I think it also gets political too where congress and the house vote to raise wages, or sometimes it's your states government who votes -- I know this is the case with minimum wage (which has been very lousy with keeping up with increases in the standard of living).

I think it's very bizarre to say that inflation is the reason that real wages have been declining overtime, and I have not seen any theory put out by any school of thought that argues this. Suppose we didn't have inflation (i = P) for five years, what would happen to nominal wages (W), would they increase, or decrease? Here are trends that have occurred in our economy that may have made it possible for real-wages to decline: there's been policy mandates that have weakened the scope and bargaining power of unions; off-shoring or increased global competition; increases in mechanization of the workplace and the amount of low-paying retail jobs; not to mention that right now there are possibly millions of skilled professionals taking jobs that pay less, which means their skills and experience are worth less than what they were, finally there's been a polarization income in our society-- if we divide national income into percentiles we see that the top 1% gets more income than the other 99% combined! So if these trends are accurate, and I believe them to be, nominal wages (W) would decrease, and so would real wages (W/P). Keep in mind that the inflation rate for the past 30 years has gravitated mostly between 2 and 4%, and in other western countries they aren't seeing a descending trend in the buying power of real-wages (at least last I checked), yet they too have a central banking system's that are complete with a fiat currency.

Anyone who actually cares to read this thread can make up their own damned mind. I doubt the participants involved have changed theirs; I haven't.

I'm done. I gotta get on with my life.
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