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Author Topic: Thoughts on 9/11?  (Read 5978 times)
Trevor
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« on: September 05, 2011, 06:45:46 AM »

Normally I have a smiley on my posts but not this one.  Bluesad

As most of you know, September 11 is my birthday and on that day in 2001, I had just arrived home with some takeout food to eat and had planned to go out to a movie later. Instead, I spent the whole afternoon and evening gazing blankly at the TV screen, stunned by what I was witnessing. I should just add that this catastrophe occurred at around 15h00 ~ 16h00 our time here in South Africa.

Within the space of a few hours, part of my life had been ripped away from me and I couldn't go out again that day. Our local news stations were broadcasting live feeds from CNN and Fox News and we were witnessing a true horror unfolding. If I close my eyes, I can still see the planes hitting the towers, the people falling to their deaths, the horrified onlookers and finally, the awful sight of those towers crumbling and falling.

I remember being angry at what had been done, I remember being angry at the bastards who had perpetrated this horror on a nation and people that I like. I still am angry at what was done on that day: I will never forget that day, not will I ever forgive what those idiots calling themselves true followers of the Muslim faith had done. They were no more Muslim than the idiots who called themselves Christians who started the Crusades and the Inquisitions were.

I didn't lose anyone that I knew personally on that day ~ some I knew of, like the producer David Angell and Berry Berenson, Anthony Perkins' widow ~ but I lost a lot. My life will never, ever be the same again. I would take it as a personal honor to be able to go to Ground Zero and lay some flowers down, in order to pay my respects. I would also go to the Pentagon and to the field where the plane destined for the Capitol crashed and lay flowers there too.

God bless America: rise up and be proud.  Smile
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 08:32:25 AM »

It was quite a day when that happened.  I was sitting in high school, second period, Business class.  We hadn't seen the first plane around 8:45.  Another teacher ran in the room and said to put the tv on, that a plane had hit the first tower.  We put it on, and happened to see the second plane going in.  We kinda just tried to find out what was going on.  Within a half hour or some such, we saw that the Pentagon was hit.  Shortly thereafter, a plane crashed in PA, halfway across the state from here.  At that point, kids in school started freaking out.  Calling parents, leaving school to go home.  It was crazy.  For some of us, it hit home when a plane came down in our own state, but the people there actually stopped the hijackers, but it's still tragic.  Who knows what would've happened had it succeeded. 

I was angry, confused, and wanted information.  I wasn't as obsessive as some people, parked on the couch for a month watching CNN.  I remember being at school that day and as events unfolded, I had a little radio with headphones.  I actually put them on and started listening to Howard Stern.  He's based in New York, blocks from the Towers.  He fed me information as the attacks happened, and even did a longer show with no commercials.  He's usually over by 11, and stayed on til 1 or 1:30, or some such.  Some teachers didn't appreciate it, but I was just like: "We're not gonna be doing your little lesson plan today.  I'm just hearing what's going on."

All I know is, we graduated high school later on, in May 2002.  And at that moment, half the people I've grown up with and known my entire life joined the service and went overseas.  I almost did as well.  I commend and respect a lot of people who're able to do that, but things happened at home that prevented it. 

I'm still a bit angry about it.  I know a few people affected by that and I can't imagine going through that.   Bluesad Hatred
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 08:36:57 AM »

On another note, I do wanna add: I noticed at the time, a lot of unwarranted anger and cruelty to people who were Muslim, or looked and spoke slightly like the people from that part of the world.  That part made me mad as well.  Not all of them were involved with what happened.  I know a guy, who moved here from there.  Nice guy, great kids, went to college, runs a local convenience store.  Some people in the neighborhood all of a sudden were like, "Yo, what're you guys doing?", etc.  Shame.  I feel it was unwarranted.  I get that people were afraid and such.  But a tiny group of people don't represent an entire country or group of people.  I've been mugged a couple times by minorities.  I don't hate all of them based on the actions of a few.  Maybe it's just me.  Hmm.
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 09:01:29 AM »

Hard to believe it's been ten years already.

9/11 happened on a Tuesday, which was my day off from work at the time. My wife left for work and I had some errands to run that morning, so I was running around in the supermarket and Home Depot with no idea of what was going on just across the river from me in New York City. When I got home my wife had left several messages on our answering machine so I called her back. She sez "Are you watching TV?" I sez "No, of course not, why?" and she sez "A plane just hit the World Trade Center -- they think it's terrorists." Naturally I hit the "on" button for the TV ... .just in time to see the second plane crash into the other tower, live as it happened. I believe my exact words to my wife were "HOLY F**KING S**T!"

The rest of the day was kind of a blur. At the time my wife didn't have a radio in her office or Internet access so I ended up being her conduit for information for a couple of hours. I sat in front of the TV and called her every so often with updates. When the third plane hit the Pentagon her boss finally sent everyone home, figuring there wasn't going to be much business anyway, and in case things got worse he wanted everyone home safe w/their families.

Thankfully I didn't know anyone personally who died in the attacks but a few of my friends and neighbors did.

The next day I had to return to work. I usually traveled down Route 23 to Route 80 (I know this info is useless to anyone who doesn't live in New Jersey, just bear with me) but instead of taking my usual route I came down Route 17, because at a certain point in the Ramsey/Upper Saddle River area the road comes over a rise and for a brief moment you get a picture perfect view of New York Skyline off in the distance. I had to see the pillar of smoke for myself. When it came into view I actually had to pull over (into the parking lot of an IHOP restaurant if memory serves) and get control on myself before I continued the rest of the way.
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 09:10:54 AM »

I was actually asleep when stuff started to go down.  My mother literally woke me up with the line, "Mark the world is ending, some planes just hit buildings in New York and the Pentagon".  The first thing that went through my mind was about my wife's (then gf) family who were taking a group trip to CA.  I just wasn't sure of the date but it turns out they were leaving a week later.  I spent the day watching the TV.  I watched each tower crumble.  Anger and fear were definitely some of the things I was feeling.
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 09:17:27 AM »

I was 13 years old and in school at the time. They wheeled a TV into the classroom to show us the news and explain what had happened. We all sat staring at the screen in disbelief. Of course, at that age no-one fully understood the how's and why's involved in the incident but understood fully the level of tragedy and the magnitude of the "attack". I think lessons got stopped briefly (it was the afternoon here), then the normal schedule resumed until the final bell. By the time I got home it was still all over the news and I watched the replays and the interviews. I took in what I saw, what I was told and after a few weeks it started to get forgotten about as public/government outcry for vengeance took hold. I was very angry at the time, because I love almost everything about the Unites States and hate the evil motivational trio of contradictory religion, political brinkmanship and economical envy.

I don't want to go into detail and I am holding back from what I really want to post (which is rare) because I know it will cause conflict and derail the thread. I have no intention of upsetting anyone who was remotely connected to 9/11 nor do I think my views disrespect those who died directly. But, after taking an interest in the events of 9/11 over the last 5 years, analysing a hell of a lot of footage and documents, I am one of those people who believe the US government (not the puppet Bush) did not do enough and to an extent aided the "attacks" for their own gains.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2011, 09:55:20 AM »

   I was teaching school that day when I took the attendance slip across the hall to the office and heard that the towers had been hit.  At that time we had neither televison nor internet access in our classrooms, so I turned the radio on to WBAP out of Dallas and listened as the Pentagon was hit and the towers fell.  It was horrible beyond words. I was trying to comfort my students, but all I wanted was nothing more than to go get my kids from their first grade classroom a few miles away and spend the whole day hugging them.

   Anger came next.  A bunch of barbarian jihadists had just murdered thousands of my fellow Americans because our troops were in Saudi Arabia AT THE INVITATION of the Saudi Government!  We did nothing to deserve that kind of response.  I am still angry - angry at their sheer hatred for the Western way of life, angry at their relentless embrace of violence, and above all for their stated goal of permanently bringing down two thousand years of civilization.

   I'll be honest - while I certainly appreciate that all Muslims in general do not share this hatred of Western civilization in general and America in particular, I spent several years after the attacks reading up and learning about Islam itself, and studying the Islamic world as a whole. I was shocked at what I learned.  I learned that  virtually every value that Americans hold dear - religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of the press and women's rights - do not exist in much of the Islamic world. In fact, throughout the Middle East, fundamentalist imams daily denounce the freedoms we cherish as infidel values that must be wiped out.  I also learned that, while Muhammad himself in the Quran did say a few nice things early on about tolerance and respect for Jews and Christians, throughout his 22 year career as a "prophet" his attitudes hardened, and by the time of his death in 632 AD he was preaching jihad against ALL unbelievers, even the "people of the Book."  Muhammad was a man of the sword throughout his life, and urged his followers to be people of the sword.  According to the fundamentalists, there is a doctrine called "abrogation" that must be used when interpreting the Quran.  That is, that if Muhammad says one thing about a subject, and then later on says something entirely different, the later saying is the one that must be accepted as Holy Writ.  Nearly all of the infamous "sword passages" in the Quran were given near the end of Muhammad's career.  So according to the fundamentalists, war against the unbeliever is the Sixth Pillar, a fundamental part of the duty of every Muslim.
   Progressive Muslims despise this interpretation and are trying hard to pry Islam away from the toleration for violence that lies at the core of its origins.  They are heroic reformers desperately trying to drag their faith into the 21st century, and I salute them for it!  But sadly, in many Islamic nations, the fundamentalists still hold sway.  And where their interpretation of Islam prevails, freedom DIES.
  All these things led me to the conclusion that radical, fundamentalist Islam is the greatest threat that the world has faced since the darkest days of World War II.  But much of the West sleeps on, oblivious to the danger we face.  Before 9/11, such ignorance was understandable.  But, in the wake of the last ten years' events, it is inexcusable.

One last note -

  Circus buddy, you are a good friend, and I respect you tremendously, but frankly I find your assessment of U.S. government involvement in 9/11 to be appalling.  The conspiracy theories have been shot down again and again.  There simply isn't a shred of credible evidence that this was an inside job - merely a great deal of speculation, slander, and frankly fabrication or, at best, very selectively presented information by people who frankly either hate the U.S. government, or, more specifically, hated the Bush administration so much that they were willing and ready to believe any evil of it.

However, I agree with you that such a debate would completely derail this thread. I would enjoy discussing it in a separate thread with you, or via PM.
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 02:05:15 PM »

  I was teaching school that day when I took the attendance slip across the hall to the office and heard that the towers had been hit.  At that time we had neither televison nor internet access in our classrooms, so I turned the radio on to WBAP out of Dallas and listened as the Pentagon was hit and the towers fell.  It was horrible beyond words. I was trying to comfort my students, but all I wanted was nothing more than to go get my kids from their first grade classroom a few miles away and spend the whole day hugging them.

   Anger came next.  A bunch of barbarian jihadists had just murdered thousands of my fellow Americans because our troops were in Saudi Arabia AT THE INVITATION of the Saudi Government!  We did nothing to deserve that kind of response.  I am still angry - angry at their sheer hatred for the Western way of life, angry at their relentless embrace of violence, and above all for their stated goal of permanently bringing down two thousand years of civilization.

   I'll be honest - while I certainly appreciate that all Muslims in general do not share this hatred of Western civilization in general and America in particular, I spent several years after the attacks reading up and learning about Islam itself, and studying the Islamic world as a whole. I was shocked at what I learned.  I learned that  virtually every value that Americans hold dear - religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of the press and women's rights - do not exist in much of the Islamic world. In fact, throughout the Middle East, fundamentalist imams daily denounce the freedoms we cherish as infidel values that must be wiped out.  I also learned that, while Muhammad himself in the Quran did say a few nice things early on about tolerance and respect for Jews and Christians, throughout his 22 year career as a "prophet" his attitudes hardened, and by the time of his death in 632 AD he was preaching jihad against ALL unbelievers, even the "people of the Book."  Muhammad was a man of the sword throughout his life, and urged his followers to be people of the sword.  According to the fundamentalists, there is a doctrine called "abrogation" that must be used when interpreting the Quran.  That is, that if Muhammad says one thing about a subject, and then later on says something entirely different, the later saying is the one that must be accepted as Holy Writ.  Nearly all of the infamous "sword passages" in the Quran were given near the end of Muhammad's career.  So according to the fundamentalists, war against the unbeliever is the Sixth Pillar, a fundamental part of the duty of every Muslim.
   Progressive Muslims despise this interpretation and are trying hard to pry Islam away from the toleration for violence that lies at the core of its origins.  They are heroic reformers desperately trying to drag their faith into the 21st century, and I salute them for it!  But sadly, in many Islamic nations, the fundamentalists still hold sway.  And where their interpretation of Islam prevails, freedom DIES.
  All these things led me to the conclusion that radical, fundamentalist Islam is the greatest threat that the world has faced since the darkest days of World War II.  But much of the West sleeps on, oblivious to the danger we face.  Before 9/11, such ignorance was understandable.  But, in the wake of the last ten years' events, it is inexcusable.

One last note -

  Circus buddy, you are a good friend, and I respect you tremendously, but frankly I find your assessment of U.S. government involvement in 9/11 to be appalling.  The conspiracy theories have been shot down again and again.  There simply isn't a shred of credible evidence that this was an inside job - merely a great deal of speculation, slander, and frankly fabrication or, at best, very selectively presented information by people who frankly either hate the U.S. government, or, more specifically, hated the Bush administration so much that they were willing and ready to believe any evil of it.

However, I agree with you that such a debate would completely derail this thread. I would enjoy discussing it in a separate thread with you, or via PM.

I don't buy into the conspiracy theories on 9/11. My response is more aimed at the earlier part of your post. What you say is true. The Muslim and Western worlds do not mix. The values are too different. All of these things are true. And while there is violent jihad, there is also peaceful jihad, which the Muslim immigrants are partaking in, and all the press that says the peaceful Muslims don't harbor anything against us and so on. I don't believe that either.

The problem is with the attempted  solution since 9/11. Instead of focusing on independence and defense, we chose more interventionist policy. This goes well beyond "was it all worth it." I knew then the war that began in 2003 was a bad idea. There were those talking about working on independence from foreign oil then too, but nobody listened.

No, instead the propaganda machine turned and 9/11 became the perfect excuse to invade. In my opinion, it was a slap in the face not to the Muslim world, as now, after all we've done, nothing has changed in Iraq. NOTHING. Now the Western world and it's goodwill is faced with all the cultural blowback that invasion inevitably brings. Cultural blowback by the very same people that despise our Western ways. I would say the invasion(s) have been an utter failure, and it's well beyond time to acknowledge it.

No, the real slap in the face has been to those that lost their lives on that day, and their loved ones. You can call me whatever you want, say I'm mistaken, until you're blue in the face, but one thing you CANNOT call me is unpatriotic. I love this country, and I despise our government who has not led us to independence and defense of all we hold dear, but to invasion and invitation of things to come that could put 9/11 to shame. And, yes, Indy, I'm talking about Bush AND Obama.

However, I do look forward to your response, as always.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:15:27 PM by Flick James » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 05:29:21 PM »

Flick, I would never question your patriotism, nor your basic good sense. You and I have both worn the uniform, and served this country at different times. I only question your conclusions!

The blowback of 9/11 came BEFORE we went into Iraq or Afghanistan.  Hell, we HELPED the Afghans get rid of the Soviets, then left them to their own devices.  They paid us back with fire and blood.  I think 9/11 was an act of war, not a crime, and war was the only valid response.  The war was not always handled very well, it is true.  But I do think the people of Iraq are better off today than they were before, and I do think there is a small chance that a more progressive government may indeed take root there.  Time will tell the answer to that question.

  Incidentally, one thing of some note - the thing that really drove the decision to go into Iraq was not so much the horrendous events of 9/11, but an event that unfolded about the same time and is almost forgotten today.  That is, the anthrax attacks that were waged by persons unknown using the U.S. postal system.  Several people died, buildings were evacuated, public figures were targeted, and the entire country was panicked - by an amount of Anthrax that could have fit into a single Ziploc snack bag!  Knowing that Saddam had made and used similar weapons in the past (technically, he USED chemical weapons, but did experiment heavily with bio weapons before 1991), and given his chronic reputation as a trouble maker, it did not take too much imagination to see him handing off a five gallon bucket of weaponized anthrax to Al Qaeda, either directly or through an intermediary.  Or maybe giving it to Hizbollah.   Either way, in the wake of 9/11 and the anthrax attacks, getting rid of him was not necessarily a bad thing.

  But I do understand your position as well.  We have spent a great deal on two conflicts whose results are still uncertain.  You think we would have been smarter to simply stay home and beef up our defenses and our borders.  I am not sure that approach would have worked.  But I certainly see where you are coming from, and respect your thoughts on the issue.
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 03:30:32 AM »


In high school in another part on the opposite side of the world, it was quite interesting to watch how the events unfolded more through a morbid fascination, like rubber-necking at a car accident, than through any heavy emotions.  Don't get me wrong, it affected me like any other, and maybe because of time or what have you I'm looking over it with a colder view, but I can't help but look at it in that way. 

Over here, to me at least, it almost became an exercise in how the media/news cycle can take over, with every channel at every time playing the same image over and over.  It seems to me that it was the defining moment of the globalisation of media: the first real big event that captured the world's attention, live and in colour, all at the same time, and from a cultural point of view it is obviously quite important [of course beyond the actual attack, the deaths etc.]

Not to trivialise the event, but a lecturer at uni was talking about how media can give false perceptions or something along those lines and posed the question of whether or not 9/11 happened, asking if anyone saw it personally, or had a personal connection to it at all, and since nobody answered in the affirmative, commented that just because you saw it on TV doesn't mean that it happened.  Now of course that was a hypothetical and was just a commentary on conspiracy and how technology is approaching the point where you can fake any image.  Interesting thought to mull over, but a meaningless digression from here.

Trevor, I have a good friend who shares the birthday too, so he shares your pain, though he wasn't as affected so doesn't place as much attention to the date.  Hope you find at least some time to enjoy the day!  Sure bad stuff happened but its also the day we got you so, so we can't be too sad...  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 04:38:27 AM »

I am not going to comment on the politics and ideas presented here. I've got a lot to say about those, but I'm just going to recollect my own experience.

It was a very weird day.

I first found out about 9/11 when I attempted to log into my email. I saw some pictures of the World Trade Center and was confused. What was this? I turned on the television and got a little better idea of what was happening. At that point I woke up my roommate. "You need to see this. Somebody just blew up the World Trade Center."

I had to go to work that day, which I did. As a personal aside, because it's such a weird thing to notice, I saw two people wearing wings on their back on that day. Doesn't mean anything to me, but it's burned in my brain as a part of that day.

At the library I still work at, they wheeled a television into the backroom so we could keep track of what was going on while we were still doing our job. There was a volunteer working that day who was from Ireland and lived through World War II, and she was not shy about sharing her memories of that time as it related to a new war-time.

Here's the thing I can never forget. In the days after 9/11, every single video that was shot made its way to national television. I remember, vividly, one video where a woman on the street was looking at the Twin Towers. When the first tower collapsed this woman's voice devolved into absolute terror. It was the sound of somebody's soul being absolutely crushed, and it remains to this day as one of the most absolutely terrifying things I've ever heard.

I detest 9/11. I hate everything about it.

F**k Osama bin Laden. I wish we could bring him back so we can shoot him again. 9/11 has proved to be the most destabilizing event that could have happened. It's awful. I don't even want to start with how many principles Americans stand dear for were thrown out in response to this terrible day.

We couldn't manage "Keep calm and carry on"? I detest everything about 9/11 and its response.
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 05:41:24 AM »


Trevor, I have a good friend who shares the birthday too, so he shares your pain, though he wasn't as affected so doesn't place as much attention to the date.  Hope you find at least some time to enjoy the day! 

Mom will be with me on Sunday so the day will be quite a lot less lonelier, thanks.  Smile

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Sure bad stuff happened but its also the day we got you so, so we can't be too sad...  Wink

Awwww..... now that nearly made me cry: thanks, Dean. *HUG* Cheers
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 07:22:55 AM »

Here's the thing I can never forget. In the days after 9/11, every single video that was shot made its way to national television. I remember, vividly, one video where a woman on the street was looking at the Twin Towers. When the first tower collapsed this woman's voice devolved into absolute terror. It was the sound of somebody's soul being absolutely crushed, and it remains to this day as one of the most absolutely terrifying things I've ever heard.

I remember that well. That is another thing that haunts me about that day.  Bluesad

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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 09:22:05 AM »

I was at work and there were people outside my office talking about it . . . but I really didn't understand the magnitude of what was happening.  Someone told me a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center.  I was  working on a report or something for a client, so I really didn't get involved in conversations with my co-workers.  I envisioned a small, private plane crashing and killing a few people.  After awhile, I heard more and more people talking and I found out the news coverage was being shown on the big projection TV in our main conference room.  I went in and there were a lot of people in there watching, completely stunned.  I went home and watched the news coverage until late that night, and then every night after that for at least a week or two . . . maybe longer.  Sometime later, I read in the newspaper that a girl I knew in grammar school was killed in the attack.  It made me feel really bad for a long time.
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 11:42:47 AM »

I was a freshman in college barely awake for an 8 a.m. English class when I found out what happened when the professor told the class. Then I was worried I lost an uncle from Boston who flies frequently. He didn't die.


I spent the class trying to find videos of what happened and if I'm remembering right I saw the video of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center and it sent shivers down my spine that day. Still does.

I spent most of the day watching a huge tv in the basement on campus seeing what happened and then going away to go to my classes where pretty much the professors said basically this is what we were going to cover today but we'll cover it next time and handed back a few things.

As for what my thoughts are on politiicans using it for this or that I'll hold back like Circus did.
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    FROM THE BADMOVIES.ORG ARCHIVES
    ImageThe Giant Claw - Slime drop

    Earth is visited by a GIANT ANTIMATTER SPACE BUZZARD! Gawk at the amazingly bad bird puppet, or chuckle over the silly dialog. This is one of the greatest b-movies ever made.

    Lesson Learned:
    • Osmosis: os∑mo∑sis (oz-mo'sis, os-) n., 1. When a bird eats something.

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