I Don't Get It

[Flick James]

I am either a cynical sinner bound for Hell or I am gifted with a powerful perception.

I am a college counselor. I spoke with a potential student recently who had decided to enroll in school. She had decided to apply for whatever federal grants she could get and she and her husband would cover the remainder themselves. She made an appointment to go through the enrollment process and so on.

Today I get an email from her. I can't share the email both because I am not allowed per privacy laws, plus I never would anyway, so I'll paraphrase. Essentially she stated her an her husband had done a lot of praying and discussion, and decided she would put off school. She then went on to explain that the financial burden would be too much for them at this time.

I've been doing this for a while and seen this enough times to the point that I'm pretty good at reading between the lines. My interpretation of what she is really saying is:

I really want to go to college and earn my degree, but I am scared and my husband told me it would cost too much so I am giving in.

I understand that decisions like this require the buy-in and commitment of both members of a marriage. I am married and there are few decisions that we make separately. But I've just seen in time and time again where a woman will inquire about college, be very passionate about earning a college degree, and then email a couple of days later (because she is too ashamed to call and say it herself) communicating that she changed her mind and her husband is always mentioned. It doesn't take rocket science to see what's going on. The husband objected to her going to school (for whatever reason, usually money) and she caved.

It's the prayer thing that I don't get. I pray, but my prayers usually fall into one of two categories: a) thanks for whatever I have and b) prayers for somebody else who is going through something dire. Did her and her husband pray and God told them it would be too much of a financial burden? I mean, that was essentially all she said, they prayed and discussed, and decided it was too much of a financial burden. I have to admit, I am unable to process it or reconcile it. You needed God to tell you whether or not it was a financial burden? This is the aspect of prayer that I just don't get. If I am to process this, the only way I can do it is by assuming that prayer was a substitute for basic reasoning.

No, I'm pretty sure hubby said no and that's pretty much the gist of it.

I used to sell music gear and would sometimes run into this bizarre behavior. Somebody would come in considering a purchase of gear, and after a consultation and selection of what they were going to buy, they would tell me they were going to go home and pray and come back the next day if they were going to buy it. A few times I had church representatives come in looking at a PA system to purchase for their church.

First, church customers were the absolute biggest price grinders on the planet. They would grind and grind and grind, and in some cases say "this is for a church. God wants us to have this PA system." The goal of this was to make me drop my pants and make zero profit for them because God told them so. There were times I felt like saying to them "God told me last night that I had to feed my family."

Second, after all of that grinding, and me lucky if I managed to squeeze a 2% margin out of it, they would tell me their church had to pray about it first before making the purchase. Really? What exactly is God going to tell you? Is he going to tell you whether or not I'm lying about the measly 2% profit I'm making after spending half of my day dealing with you people (I would even show them the cost and how little I was making)? Is the pastor going to announce the potential purchase during the next service and is the congregation going to prayer about the deal? What exactly is to be gained from praying about something like that? The PA system either serves your purposes or it doesn't, and you already know that I'm on the cusp of losing money (especially when you consider the time I spent with you that could have been spent with somebody else). So what's the deal?

Despite that fact that there is no way I will do this, what I really feel like doing is telling this woman that I prayed about it too and God told me she is supposed to go to school. I mean, she wants to go into human services and be a substance abuse counselor. I should tell her that God needs her to help people. But, I won't do that. I does irk me, however. She obviously can't bring herself to call me after we've had numerous conversations. I have to assume she is ashamed or embarassed. Why? If your faith told you not to earn a college degree, at least to the point that you listed it as what brought you to your decision, then why be embarassed?

I don't think there is any way I will ever be able to understand this kind of behavior.

[Jack]

That's what religion has always been handy for - don't do something because I (probably your king) tell you to, do it because it's what God wants you to do.  I'm just his spokesman you see.  Works good with husbands and wives as well apparently.  Why tell her you don't want to pay for her college when you can just blame God for the whole thing?  If she's willing to buy into that, you get off scot-free.  It's a wonderful tool of manipulation if used correctly.

[Flick James]

That's what religion has always been handy for - don't do something because I (probably your king) tell you to, do it because it's what God wants you to do.  I'm just his spokesman you see.  Works good with husbands and wives as well apparently.  Why tell her you don't want to pay for her college when you can just blame God for the whole thing?  If she's willing to buy into that, you get off scot-free.  It's a wonderful tool of manipulation if used correctly.

I agree. And I'm not just trying to take my usual "disdain for religion" angle here. Sure, it's there, but I want to make it clear I don't have a problem with prayer. I pray myself. In cases like I've brought up, however, it seems like prayer is an replacement for our God-given reason. It is also a means by which people manipulate people and situations.

I understand that I am making some assumptions and painting a picture of a husband who is holding back his wife and using prayer as an excuse. That may not necessarily be the case. But I've been down this road sooooo many times. A committment to a course of action by a wife, followed a couple of days later by an email stinking of shame and embarrassment that mentions her husband. It just fits an all-too-familiar profile.

[tracy]

That's what religion has always been handy for - don't do something because I (probably your king) tell you to, do it because it's what God wants you to do.  I'm just his spokesman you see.  Works good with husbands and wives as well apparently.  Why tell her you don't want to pay for her college when you can just blame God for the whole thing?  If she's willing to buy into that, you get off scot-free.  It's a wonderful tool of manipulation if used correctly.

I agree. And I'm not just trying to take my usual "disdain for religion" angle here. Sure, it's there, but I want to make it clear I don't have a problem with prayer. I pray myself. In cases like I've brought up, however, it seems like prayer is an replacement for our God-given reason. It is also a means by which people manipulate people and situations.

I understand that I am making some assumptions and painting a picture of a husband who is holding back his wife and using prayer as an excuse. That may not necessarily be the case. But I've been down this road sooooo many times. A committment to a course of action by a wife, followed a couple of days later by an email stinking of shame and embarrassment that mentions her husband. It just fits an all-too-familiar profile.

I don't think prayer is a replacement for our God-given reason but simply a request for guidance and clearer thought on a matter. Going to college is one of the most important and financially burdensome things we can do. Is it using God as an excuse? Not at all...sometimes we need either a reminder of the timing being off or reassurance that the extra expense will be worth it in the long run. 

[alandhopewell]

I am either a cynical sinner bound for Hell or I am gifted with a powerful perception.

I am a college counselor. I spoke with a potential student recently who had decided to enroll in school. She had decided to apply for whatever federal grants she could get and she and her husband would cover the remainder themselves. She made an appointment to go through the enrollment process and so on.

Today I get an email from her. I can't share the email both because I am not allowed per privacy laws, plus I never would anyway, so I'll paraphrase. Essentially she stated her an her husband had done a lot of praying and discussion, and decided she would put off school. She then went on to explain that the financial burden would be too much for them at this time.

I've been doing this for a while and seen this enough times to the point that I'm pretty good at reading between the lines. My interpretation of what she is really saying is:

I really want to go to college and earn my degree, but I am scared and my husband told me it would cost too much so I am giving in.

I understand that decisions like this require the buy-in and commitment of both members of a marriage. I am married and there are few decisions that we make separately. But I've just seen in time and time again where a woman will inquire about college, be very passionate about earning a college degree, and then email a couple of days later (because she is too ashamed to call and say it herself) communicating that she changed her mind and her husband is always mentioned. It doesn't take rocket science to see what's going on. The husband objected to her going to school (for whatever reason, usually money) and she caved.

It's the prayer thing that I don't get. I pray, but my prayers usually fall into one of two categories: a) thanks for whatever I have and b) prayers for somebody else who is going through something dire. Did her and her husband pray and God told them it would be too much of a financial burden? I mean, that was essentially all she said, they prayed and discussed, and decided it was too much of a financial burden. I have to admit, I am unable to process it or reconcile it. You needed God to tell you whether or not it was a financial burden? This is the aspect of prayer that I just don't get. If I am to process this, the only way I can do it is by assuming that prayer was a substitute for basic reasoning.

No, I'm pretty sure hubby said no and that's pretty much the gist of it.

I used to sell music gear and would sometimes run into this bizarre behavior. Somebody would come in considering a purchase of gear, and after a consultation and selection of what they were going to buy, they would tell me they were going to go home and pray and come back the next day if they were going to buy it. A few times I had church representatives come in looking at a PA system to purchase for their church.

First, church customers were the absolute biggest price grinders on the planet. They would grind and grind and grind, and in some cases say "this is for a church. God wants us to have this PA system." The goal of this was to make me drop my pants and make zero profit for them because God told them so. There were times I felt like saying to them "God told me last night that I had to feed my family."

Second, after all of that grinding, and me lucky if I managed to squeeze a 2% margin out of it, they would tell me their church had to pray about it first before making the purchase. Really? What exactly is God going to tell you? Is he going to tell you whether or not I'm lying about the measly 2% profit I'm making after spending half of my day dealing with you people (I would even show them the cost and how little I was making)? Is the pastor going to announce the potential purchase during the next service and is the congregation going to prayer about the deal? What exactly is to be gained from praying about something like that? The PA system either serves your purposes or it doesn't, and you already know that I'm on the cusp of losing money (especially when you consider the time I spent with you that could have been spent with somebody else). So what's the deal?

Despite that fact that there is no way I will do this, what I really feel like doing is telling this woman that I prayed about it too and God told me she is supposed to go to school. I mean, she wants to go into human services and be a substance abuse counselor. I should tell her that God needs her to help people. But, I won't do that. I does irk me, however. She obviously can't bring herself to call me after we've had numerous conversations. I have to assume she is ashamed or embarassed. Why? If your faith told you not to earn a college degree, at least to the point that you listed it as what brought you to your decision, then why be embarassed?

I don't think there is any way I will ever be able to understand this kind of behavior.

     As a Christian man, Flick, I don't either; the Bible tells me that my job is to head the household, not to run it. (Actually, my first decision as "head of the household" was to put Tracy in charge of day-to-day ops, as she has more experience than I do.)I never have understood males who seem to think that their job is to make impotent slaves of their mates. Christ never said that, the Sc riptures don't, and simple common sense should tell guys like this that, when you enslave your spouse, you create more work and headache for yourself.

[Flick James]

That's what religion has always been handy for - don't do something because I (probably your king) tell you to, do it because it's what God wants you to do.  I'm just his spokesman you see.  Works good with husbands and wives as well apparently.  Why tell her you don't want to pay for her college when you can just blame God for the whole thing?  If she's willing to buy into that, you get off scot-free.  It's a wonderful tool of manipulation if used correctly.

I agree. And I'm not just trying to take my usual "disdain for religion" angle here. Sure, it's there, but I want to make it clear I don't have a problem with prayer. I pray myself. In cases like I've brought up, however, it seems like prayer is an replacement for our God-given reason. It is also a means by which people manipulate people and situations.

I understand that I am making some assumptions and painting a picture of a husband who is holding back his wife and using prayer as an excuse. That may not necessarily be the case. But I've been down this road sooooo many times. A committment to a course of action by a wife, followed a couple of days later by an email stinking of shame and embarrassment that mentions her husband. It just fits an all-too-familiar profile.

I don't think prayer is a replacement for our God-given reason but simply a request for guidance and clearer thought on a matter. Going to college is one of the most important and financially burdensome things we can do. Is it using God as an excuse? Not at all...sometimes we need either a reminder of the timing being off or reassurance that the extra expense will be worth it in the long run. 

That's fine. I don't care that she decided to put off school for financial reasons. I just don't see how prayer would help in deciding that it was too much of a burden. Quite frankly, it looks very much like an excuse in this case. I've seen it many times, not necessarily with prayer, but with making excuses. People use a number of things as excuses not to further their education. She came to me with a specific goal. She wanted to work as a substance abuse counselor and help people overcome their problems. I'm sure there may have been some spiritual motivation as well, wanting to do God's work in her own way of helping rescue people. Good for her. Then, suddenly I get this email about how prayer and discussion with her husband led to her not going. That's up to her. I'll just go about my life as usual. But I've seen this kind of thing too many times. I am willing to bet that her husband objected to her going to school for financial reasons, and, whether it came from him or from her, prayer was used to justify the excuse.

Granted, my deist slant is at work here. In case you're interested, my view on prayer follows the belief that human beings cannot be trusted to tell the truth about what they say is "revealed" to them through prayer or any other spiritual means. It's not that people are lying, per se, but agendizing and embellishment is an irresistable part of human nature. It's akin to trying to get a dog NOT to jump up on the table and eat the delicious food that was left there after you've left the house. They can't help it.

Deists pray, we just don't ask for guidance and try to avoid really asking for anything. When you start asking for specific things or guidance, you start getting into trouble. I give thanks usually. God gave me my reason, so I trust what He gave me. There's a deist concept that religion is based on faith, while deism is based on trust. I trust that if God wants me to go a certain way, then inevitably I will find my way there, through the reason that I was given. If I start following the word written by or being told to me by somebody else, then I am no longer operating on trust, I am now operating on faith that what was said was the truth, and given what I've noted about the human tendency to embellish, I can't do that.

Whatever my views on prayer are, even if I were a Christian or Muslim or Jew, it is possible for prayer and/or religion to be used as an excuse, for any number of things. Let's say I had prayed for the student and felt very strongly that God told me she SHOULD go to school, that God wants her to pursue that career and help people. Is it God talking or my desire to enroll another student and look good? If it's the latter then I would say I'm using prayer as an excuse. Same thing in her case. Is it God talking or her husband, or her fear of the expense or committment. If it's the latter then I'm sorry, she is using prayer/religion as an excuse.

[Flick James]

As a Christian man, Flick, I don't either; the Bible tells me that my job is to head the household, not to run it. (Actually, my first decision as "head of the household" was to put Tracy in charge of day-to-day ops, as she has more experience than I do.)I never have understood males who seem to think that their job is to make impotent slaves of their mates. Christ never said that, the Sc- riptures don't, and simple common sense should tell guys like this that, when you enslave your spouse, you create more work and headache for yourself.

I totally accept that, alan. I wasn't suggesting that enslaving women was a goal of Christian men. Speaking of which. I never said, nor even know, what the woman's faith is. Why should we assume she is Christian. Odds are she is, but still, she never told me what her faith was, nor was I interested in whether or not it was Christian.

[indianasmith]

I believe in praying for wisdom and guidance, but I also believe that God gave us brains for a reason.  Mankind does have a long and sad history of substituting his own desires for the will of God, even when those desires run directly contrary to God's nature - or to His revealed word in Scripture (I know you don't believe the Scriptures reveal His Word, but many do - but they ignore them anyway).  I hope that their decision was mutual, and arrived at with God-given wisdom - but like you, I think it may have been otherwise.

[the ghoul]

You're reading way more into this than you should, in my opinion.  I find that it is generally best for one's own sanity to not try to "get" people.  It will only cause you anxiety and frustration.  She may very well have made a dumb decision.  People do that every day in droves.  SHE has to live with it.  You don't.  Forget about it and continue to help people who have more sense.  They are more deserving of your time.

[Allhallowsday]

...I don't think prayer is a replacement for our God-given reason but simply a request for guidance and clearer thought on a matter. Going to college is one of the most important and financially burdensome things we can do. Is it using God as an excuse? Not at all...sometimes we need either a reminder of the timing being off or reassurance that the extra expense will be worth it in the long run.

Your first sentence crystallized anything I might have said.  You then veer after your question into an expectation of answers.  

[Mofo Rising]

As a card-carrying agnostic with as atheistic as you can get without being an actual atheist tendencies, I find the original complaint very interesting.

What does "praying" mean to people? I get the idea that it's going back to some serious thinking about an issue, but I get a bit confused about where the answer comes from. Is it intuition? Is it an excuse to go with the first thought? Or did the idea of "God" actually step in and provide an answer?

In this case, I would agree with you. The husband felt a bit threatened and felt he needed to provide a veto. Bad idea in my view, but what are you going to do?

This praying for answers is completely alien to me, because I think the only answers you are going to get is predecided from your point of view.

Well, that's my view, but I would be very interested to understand the actual thought process that involves "praying about it."