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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Movies  |  Press Releases and Film News  |  Reporter undergoes ‘unnecessary’ transvaginal ultrasound toframe abortion debate « previous next »
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Author Topic: Reporter undergoes ‘unnecessary’ transvaginal ultrasound toframe abortion debate  (Read 8043 times)
alandhopewell
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2012, 12:50:35 PM »

If it reduces the number of abortions, I'm for it.
This is probably my single biggest issue.  I guess it really hit home for me when my wife was pregnant with our twins.  Under current law, if she had wanted to, she could have gone to a clinic and had them both killed, and legally it would have been completely beyond my power to do a single thing about it.  Not that it was ever going to happen - she hates abortion as much as I do - but the idea that such a thing could legally be done just filled me with unutterable loathing which persists to this day.  It's not a Democrat/Republican thing for me, nor a Christian thing. And I have no issue whatsoever with people wanting to use contraception - we used it for years.   For me this issue goes to the very heart of what Jefferson called our "inalienable rights" - first and foremost of which is the Right to Life.  Roe vs. Wade trampled that right, and it has been hailed as "freedom of choice."

You can wrap it in the flowery language of choice all day long, and it does not alter the fact that at the end of the day you have a tiny, dead child who will never get to laugh, or love, or weep.

     That's exactly where Trace and I come down on this. Our Lord proclaimed dreadful consequences upon those who would harm His little ones, and I don't see any way that the desires, wishes, whims, or anything else of man trumps that.


     People complain about the trucks carrying large pictures of aborted children on their sides-if I could, I'd keep 'em in diesel, personally. Let EVERYONE see the result of such a procedure, THEN choose.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:59:19 PM by alandhopewell » Logged

If it's true what they say, that GOD created us in His image, then why should we not love creating, and why should we not continue to do so, as carefully and ethically as we can, on whatever scale we're capable of?

     The choice is simple; refuse to create, and refuse to grow, or build, with care and love.
alandhopewell
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »

That line of thinking is the great fallacy in the debate, IMHO. It's no longer just "their body."  There's a child in there!

Wow!

You know I detest these discussions on politics and religion. I mean it's fine for you who enjoy it, and you all generally keep it among yourselves, so I'm the only one to blame for looking.

But I have to take you to task on that, Indy. So if it's no longer 'her body', and let's not mince words referring to women as their and an otherwise collective third party entity, then whose body is it?

The community's?

The government's?

The church's?

It's interesting that someone pointed out earlier, I think Grover...zip code...err...anyway..., about the hypocrisy of those who oppose mandates being all for them when it involves someone else, and more specially someone's, or a group of someones', agenda.

So, if it's not her body but it instead belongs to the collective body...isn't that socialism? And correct me if I'm wrong (bwhahahahaha), but isn't that a conservative jab at Obama and something conservatives swear they are opposed to...until it benefits them?

And here's another thing for the general discussion at hand: it takes two to tango...if you get my drift. All this discussion about women this and women that...seems a little one-sided (I'm generalizing...my apologies to anyone in the discussion who was not one-sided as I have not read every post in this discussion...as I have no interest in dozing off right now).

     The body truly in question is the CHILD'S body; it's going to be ripped to shreds. I'd post you pictures, but my wife begged me not to.
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If it's true what they say, that GOD created us in His image, then why should we not love creating, and why should we not continue to do so, as carefully and ethically as we can, on whatever scale we're capable of?

     The choice is simple; refuse to create, and refuse to grow, or build, with care and love.
Flick James
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2012, 01:09:33 PM »

Quote
The body truly in question is the CHILD'S body; it's going to be ripped to shreds. I'd post you pictures, but my wife begged me not to.

I really hope you're not saying that the unborn child should take legal precedence over the mother's. If that's the case I can see why people on the left feel it's a war on women. I respect the life of all unborn babies, but I can't go along with the idea that the unborn baby's body takes precedence over the mother's. If, during labor, I had to make a choice between my wife and my unborn child, as difficult a choice as that would be, I would choose my wife. It's insane to me to think that one takes precedence over the other, and while I am against abortion I would hate to think of a world where I would be REQUIRED to let my wife die in order to save the child.
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alandhopewell
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2012, 01:29:59 PM »

Quote
The body truly in question is the CHILD'S body; it's going to be ripped to shreds. I'd post you pictures, but my wife begged me not to.

I really hope you're not saying that the unborn child should take legal precedence over the mother's. If that's the case I can see why people on the left feel it's a war on women. I respect the life of all unborn babies, but I can't go along with the idea that the unborn baby's body takes precedence over the mother's. If, during labor, I had to make a choice between my wife and my unborn child, as difficult a choice as that would be, I would choose my wife. It's insane to me to think that one takes precedence over the other, and while I am against abortion I would hate to think of a world where I would be REQUIRED to let my wife die in order to save the child.

     The instances where it's a choice betwen the child and the mother are so rare as to be almost nonexistent. What we're talking about is the ability to end the life of an individual because such a life is somehow "inconvenient" to someone else.

     Granted, proclaiming all women who desire abortions as "sluts" is certain to cause friction. However, the Scriptures call all sexual activity outside of wedlock sinful, and I'm not going to oppose that to suit anyone. Still, what's wrong with carrying the child to term, then putting him or her up for adoption? There are thousands of couples who want to adopt, who would give that child love, a home, and all that's needed.

     The Hippocratic Oath charges a doctor to make every possible effort to save BOTH child and mother, not to flip a mental ( or ideological) coin and choose who lives or dies.
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If it's true what they say, that GOD created us in His image, then why should we not love creating, and why should we not continue to do so, as carefully and ethically as we can, on whatever scale we're capable of?

     The choice is simple; refuse to create, and refuse to grow, or build, with care and love.
Flick James
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2012, 02:12:05 PM »

There's nothing wrong with it. Why would you assume that I think there is? Again, Andy is 100% correct. This debate is so freaking polarizing that you must assume that if I take exception to a single thing said, it must mean I a support abortion.

I understand that I was bringing a rare circumstance to bear. I was trying to make a point about favoring one life over another. If somebody says or suggests that an unborn child's life is more important than the mother's life, then I must assume that under my example, the mother must die. It is a litmus test that such debates need to clarify position. Yes, I am against abortion because I recognize that a human life begins at conception, regardless of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. The problem is that human beings are at the mercy of a debate in which the majority of those involved have a religious or political axe to grind. If you truly want to eliminate or reduce the number of unborn deaths, then you will stop all of this axe grinding. But I understand that your religious beliefs put you in a position where you cannot do that. I happen to respect human life, be it the unborn child or the mother, and I think that both are victims of a stupid fight that throws most reason out the window in favor that that FREAKING AXE TO GRIND! "Sluts," "murderers," "nazis," "war on women," these are all just words and terms that bring out the true colors of hatred and, I'm sorry, DISRESPECT for human life that both sides demonstrate.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 02:16:16 PM by The Most Interesting Man in this Zip Code » Logged

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indianasmith
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2012, 04:16:31 PM »

I'm not necessarily advocating a full set of Constitutional rights for the unborn, but simply that one most basic and human right of them all, to continue living.

My wife was born to a 16 year old unwed mother in 1964.  Had she been conceived a decade later, I imagine there are very good odds that her life would have ended in a medical waste container before she ever got to draw her first breath. As it was, she was adopted by a loving family and became the most important person in my life. This is personal for me, I admit.

That being said, lest you mistake me for a total knuckle-dragger -
  I do believe in a freedom of choice.  It is a choice whether or not to engage in sexual activity.  It is a choice whether or not to marry.  It is a choice whether or not to use contraception.  But, when that tiny heart begins to beat, I do believe that choice ends and responsibility begins.

I do, however, believe that married men should have some say in whether or not their child gets to draw its first breath.  Yes, Menard, it is her body.  But it is also his child.  It takes two to produce a child, why should it not take two to bring that child into the world?

I don't want women who get abortions to go to jail.  I don't want doctors who perform abortions to go to jail (except for the grotesque monstrosity known as "partial birth abortion." That is pure infanticide, and I think there is a special chamber in hell reserved for those who perform it.)

I simply want abortion to go the way of slavery - to become a sad footnote in the history books, with future citizens reading about it and wondering: "How could any thinking person ever actually DEFEND this?"
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2012, 10:10:40 PM »

There's nothing wrong with it. Why would you assume that I think there is? Again, Andy is 100% correct. This debate is so freaking polarizing that you must assume that if I take exception to a single thing said, it must mean I a support abortion.

I understand that I was bringing a rare circumstance to bear. I was trying to make a point about favoring one life over another. If somebody says or suggests that an unborn child's life is more important than the mother's life, then I must assume that under my example, the mother must die. It is a litmus test that such debates need to clarify position. Yes, I am against abortion because I recognize that a human life begins at conception, regardless of my religious beliefs or lack thereof. The problem is that human beings are at the mercy of a debate in which the majority of those involved have a religious or political axe to grind. If you truly want to eliminate or reduce the number of unborn deaths, then you will stop all of this axe grinding. But I understand that your religious beliefs put you in a position where you cannot do that. I happen to respect human life, be it the unborn child or the mother, and I think that both are victims of a stupid fight that throws most reason out the window in favor that that FREAKING AXE TO GRIND! "Sluts," "murderers," "nazis," "war on women," these are all just words and terms that bring out the true colors of hatred and, I'm sorry, DISRESPECT for human life that both sides demonstrate.
I suspect you nor I cannot but often find ourselves moderates. 
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Flick James
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2012, 09:32:05 AM »

Quote
I suspect you nor I cannot but often find ourselves moderates.

Yeah. You know, I’ve never really looked at myself in terms of the left/right political spectrum. I try to avoid it. I think that spectrum is an incredibly limited way of thinking. Think of it. It’s literally two-dimensional. It doesn’t leave much room for life. I’ve never really considered myself a moderate, per se, but I guess maybe I am. I’ve noticed a strange shift in culture to where hardline leftist or rightists are the norms of society and people like me are the kooks. I keep being told that I have to pick a side, but it’s like trying to choose between Castro and Pinochet. No, I’ll just stick to my own devices, thank you very much.   
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AndyC
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2012, 09:59:21 AM »

Quote
I suspect you nor I cannot but often find ourselves moderates.

Yeah. You know, I’ve never really looked at myself in terms of the left/right political spectrum. I try to avoid it. I think that spectrum is an incredibly limited way of thinking. Think of it. It’s literally two-dimensional. It doesn’t leave much room for life. I’ve never really considered myself a moderate, per se, but I guess maybe I am. I’ve noticed a strange shift in culture to where hardline leftist or rightists are the norms of society and people like me are the kooks. I keep being told that I have to pick a side, but it’s like trying to choose between Castro and Pinochet. No, I’ll just stick to my own devices, thank you very much.   

And the notion that you have to be on one side or the other completely ignores the possibility that some situations might benefit more from a "left" approach, while others might require a "right" approach. And some situations might call for a combination or some other compromise. But the prevailing attitude seems to be that one side (whichever you choose) is right all the time, and every situation must be judged according to a blanket philosophy, regardless of circumstances. The moderate approach, meanwhile, is to try and please both by landing somewhere in the middle, which is another position guaranteed to be wrong some of the time - perhaps even more often than the other two, because you get watered-down, ineffective solutions.

Ideology, and even simplistic notions of fairness and "give and take" really need to be set aside, and each situation needs to be considered on its own. But people don't want to take time to think, or form a new, informed opinion for every issue that comes along. Better to push a one-size-fits-all philosophy that lets you use a standard opinion and set of arguments for everything. And then put a bumper sticker on your car, or wear a coloured ribbon, so nobody has to take the time to ask your opinion, and you don't have to tell them.

It's actually quite lazy when you think about it.
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2012, 12:44:32 PM »

Quote
I suspect you nor I cannot but often find ourselves moderates.

Yeah. You know, I’ve never really looked at myself in terms of the left/right political spectrum. I try to avoid it. I think that spectrum is an incredibly limited way of thinking. Think of it. It’s literally two-dimensional. It doesn’t leave much room for life. I’ve never really considered myself a moderate, per se, but I guess maybe I am. I’ve noticed a strange shift in culture to where hardline leftist or rightists are the norms of society and people like me are the kooks. I keep being told that I have to pick a side, but it’s like trying to choose between Castro and Pinochet. No, I’ll just stick to my own devices, thank you very much.   

And the notion that you have to be on one side or the other completely ignores the possibility that some situations might benefit more from a "left" approach, while others might require a "right" approach. And some situations might call for a combination or some other compromise. But the prevailing attitude seems to be that one side (whichever you choose) is right all the time, and every situation must be judged according to a blanket philosophy, regardless of circumstances. The moderate approach, meanwhile, is to try and please both by landing somewhere in the middle, which is another position guaranteed to be wrong some of the time - perhaps even more often than the other two, because you get watered-down, ineffective solutions.

Ideology, and even simplistic notions of fairness and "give and take" really need to be set aside, and each situation needs to be considered on its own. But people don't want to take time to think, or form a new, informed opinion for every issue that comes along. Better to push a one-size-fits-all philosophy that lets you use a standard opinion and set of arguments for everything. And then put a bumper sticker on your car, or wear a coloured ribbon, so nobody has to take the time to ask your opinion, and you don't have to tell them.

It's actually quite lazy when you think about it.

Yeah.  The divide makes me pretty angry sometimes actually.  Like when people say they're socially liberal and economically conservative.  I don't blame them for saying this, just don't like this division.  I like to try to figure out what will work best.  This is often difficult, but it seems more productive than the alternatives.  And this appears to divide me from most people in the country when it comes to politics.  Bleh.
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tracy
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« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2012, 02:00:15 PM »

I am very much against abortion but I am actually not in favor of forcing a woman to go through an uncomfortable medical procedure. Let a man try having one first. Besides...I honestly don't think this will change anyone's mind.
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2012, 03:33:58 PM »

I am very much against abortion but I am actually not in favor of forcing a woman to go through an uncomfortable medical procedure. Let a man try having one first. Besides...I honestly don't think this will change anyone's mind.
I think you're right.  At the very worst, inconvenience would be a small price to pay if one wants to be rid of one's responsibility. 
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Frank81
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« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2012, 07:41:35 PM »

I am not surprised  this thread  is going on and on, however, this 'progressive'  reporter is  suspect in my book and can't be trusted to write anything remotely called objective. Still, I am pretty far to the right, but, I don't think Abortion should be illegal, Gay and Lesbian people should be able to 'marry' a  mate, etc.. My main focus is on military and defense issues, in the end, soneone who is unborn is in my estimation much better off not coming to this planet. If I had a choice, I'd rather  stay with the good lord and/or  oblivion, whatever one believes happens before or after life on hellhole Earth.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2012, 08:27:23 PM »

Your life must have been exceptionally tough.
I LOVE my life.  I teach some really bright and motivated kids, I have two amazing daughters, and my wife and I are still pretty fond of each other after 27 years of marriage.  I'm sure heaven is better, but in the meantime, this isn't bad!

I hope lots of good stuff comes your way soon.
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"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
Frank81
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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2012, 09:55:48 PM »

Your life must have been exceptionally tough.
I LOVE my life.  I teach some really bright and motivated kids, I have two amazing daughters, and my wife and I are still pretty fond of each other after 27 years of marriage.  I'm sure heaven is better, but in the meantime, this isn't bad!

I hope lots of good stuff comes your way soon.

I had fun as a kid, but, realised later  all the F#@cked up things  done to my family by people  claiming to be  progressive and for order. I  know my late Mama was a beautiful, caring, honest, giving person and had a brutal painful ending at the hands of  our medical 'miracle' makers. I take care of my elderly Dad and contribute my time to childrens charities and work 3 jobs to survive. I'm not telling you this to praise myself, it's all cr@p in the end, I fear, and a waste. But, It's not childrens fault the adults are @$$#*les. My relatives  were slaughtered both paternally and maternally, both sides, but, this F#@k'n planet has done that to the majority of  humanity for thousands of years. I think it's  great people like you have had a better outcome and outlook in life. I even contemplated getting married, but, have pretty much abandoned the idea, even though, for some reason what friends I choose to speak to insist I'm this great guy who should get married and keep fixing me up with people. 

Good Stuff is not coming, this is an evil planet, with a mostly genocidal insane speices. The human race applauds murder and genocide, kills it's children and covers it up with politics,religion and  platitudes. It really deserves to be wiped out along with the whole planet and it'll probably do it. I'm glad I bought no one else into this hellhole,  there is a hell, this is it.  Thanks for the sentiment and hold onto your love, good vibes to you and your family, who knows, maybe, there is a small sliver of a chance things may get better  and I am proven wrong. But, not in my lifetime.
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