V-E DAY

[Umaril Has Returned]

Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.

Fair enough, but as far as "ditches filled with bodies", we forget the Killing Fields in Cambodia, and we forget that we were winning Vietnam in Cambodia's own backyard
until we deserted a potential ally due to pressure over allegations of violation of neutrality.  Yet these same people overlooked that N. Vietnam was circumventing the DMZ thru Cambodia as well.   I mention Pol Pot and the Killing Fields because it's one the UN and the world tend to forget...

[RCMerchant]

Umaril-I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on the German people-hell-Hitler took a lesson from the good old USA-look at what we did to the American Indians-but that generation of people in that place and at that time had a f**ked up mind set.
And the good old USA-and slavery? The USA like to tout their the 'good guys"- Nazi Germany is not the first country to commit genocide-they just did it with up to date tech. Of course when s**t wasnt available-they just lined them up near big ditches and shot em.

Fair enough, but as far as "ditches filled with bodies", we forget the Killing Fields in Cambodia, and we forget that we were winning Vietnam in Cambodia's own backyard
until we deserted a potential ally due to pressure over allegations of violation of neutrality.  Yet these same people overlooked that N. Vietnam was circumventing the DMZ thru Cambodia as well.   I mention Pol Pot and the Killing Fields because it's one the UN and the world tend to forget...

When I mentioned earlier of GI's playing with the dead-I was speaking of the evil WE did  in Vietnam-no one is innocent. Nazi Germany dosent have the whole hand on evil. the USA has done lotsa evil.
f**k-EVIL is EVERYWHERE in ALL RACES and countrys-its not a race or genetic thing-its what ALL people do.
It is what it is.'
You can condem it-you can excuse it-you can do whatever you want-but if you take little kids-and torure them-like Mengele-or slaughter a whole tribe of babie and mothers-like the US did in the Indian wars-its all evil.
Its ALL EVIL.
PERIOD.
NO escuse-I dont give a f**k about ideology-or what you think-you kill a baby-your f**king wrong.

[Umaril Has Returned]

Well said,my freind.
But the fact remains-you dont experiment on children -torture people-play God for being repressed-the american blacks have LOTS to be angry about-as well as the American Indians-but taking over the world is not in the Indian agenda.  They did the Ghost Dance and died. The German people-and I have German blood in my veins-are a great nation who did much for the world-and they shouldn't be marked for the big stain that Nazi Germany cursed them with. But It is what it is-just as the USA committed mass genocide way before Hitler was even born. Just as the Catholic Church did with the Crusades-ideology trumps,it seems.
Very sad.

Agreed, and that's why I said that what happened wasn't worth WW2 and the Holocaust.  

However, people also tend to forget that certain incidents, like the 1939 Bromberg Massacre of 5500 innocent Germans in Poland's Danzig province was a proverbial lightning rod for WW2 as well.

Some murders took place in Slovakia's Sudetenland as well.  Eyewitnesses say German children were nailed to barn doors and some were mutilated by angry Polish-Slovak mobs.

Also, some evidence does point to Communist influence and instigation of the incident.  I know two wrongs don't make a right, but this is how it unfortunately played out and regardless of the morals or politics, I feel Socialism\Communism were eventually going to meet head-on.

If we are to understand the anger and hatred of WW2, we need to accept the fact that Europe and the Allies were NOT on the up-and-up in some cases. Germans had legitimate gripes and I feel in all cases, they were deliberately ignored to provoke that anger further. And it did. I only hope those who did it are happy with the results...  :-(

I understand the Jewish issue, but I wish that they wouldn't see themselves as 51% of the shareholder in ultimate ethnic violence when 75 million+ native inhabitants of The Americas lost not only their lives, but their homeland as well.  And tosome of the same European invaders that victimized post WW1 and pre-WW2 Germany.

[RCMerchant]

Saying-"but look what you did" doesnt excuse it.
We should learn from evil-not repeat it-yes-what so called civilised world did to "tame" the Americas was very evil-doesnt make Hitler and the Nazis any better-they just had more publicity on their side.

[RCMerchant]

I know the Germans were p**sed-lotsa people were p**sed-they didnt experiment on little kids and old men in concentration camps.

[Umaril Has Returned]

Saying-"but look what you did" doesnt excuse it.
We should learn from evil-not repeat it-yes-what so called civilised world did to "tame" the Americas was very evil-doesnt make Hitler and the Nazis any better-they just had more publicity on their side.

Agreed.  The best we can hope for is that it never happens again.

[indianasmith]

A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match!

[RCMerchant]

A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match!

Thats how wars start.  Shouting turns to shooting.

[Umaril Has Returned]

A fascinating discussion all the way around.
Kudos to you both for a meaningful exchange of ideas that did NOT end in a shouting match!

No need to shout, speculation like this is a natural thing given the amount of alternate endings that could have taken place. Any time the dust settles from something as big as WW2, you're bound to have a firestorm of "what if's" and "what could have been's".  It's only natural.

However, reality has seen me taking a lot of heat in the past, with some people I knew for years dumping me in a minute over the knowledge that some of my family fought for Germany in WW2. 

I also however, have a great-great grandfather (oder, ein Ururgroßvater) who fought in the Franco-Prussian War, and that above all else, makes me prouder because that was the war that gave Germany her name and established her independence! Anyone can fight in a war, but a war to establish the freedom and independence of your countrymen is indeed honorable above all else.

Anyhow, that's more than you ever wanted to know about a fellow forum member, but were afraid to ask!  Maybe a bit TMI...

[Jim H]

Post WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany.  Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.

The general thing I found interesting about the Treaty was it struck the worst balance possible.  It hurt and insulted Germany, but didn't actually crush them under heel.  They should have either treated them as a fallen friend and brought them in (eventually) as an ally to everyone else in Europe, or demolished the country so completely (break the nation back down into smaller entities, or something along those lines) it would have been impossible to rebuild. Instead, they did something in the middle, and barely 20 years passed and we got another war.  They should have listened to Wilson.

[indianasmith]

Wilson unfortunately got schooled by Clemenceau and Lloyd George.  Every time he tried to balk, they would threaten to reject the League of Nations, and he would knuckle under.  The Treaty they wound up with was almost directly opposite of the Fourteen Points for peace he had proposed, and the Germans were forced to sign in under duress..

That being said, it was not nearly as vindictive or confiscatory as the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk that the Germans imposed on the Russians in December of 1917!

[Umaril Has Returned]

Post WW1:
The Treaty Of Versailles was a legal writ of extortion and revenge based on military, cultural and political rivalries that promoted the opposite of the "peace" and "prosperity" it was supposed to promote in Germany.  Prostitution, unemployment, and vigilantes ruled post WW1 Germany while the Allies lived off of Germany and grew rich as Germans became poorer.

The general thing I found interesting about the Treaty was it struck the worst balance possible.  It hurt and insulted Germany, but didn't actually crush them under heel.  They should have either treated them as a fallen friend and brought them in (eventually) as an ally to everyone else in Europe, or demolished the country so completely (break the nation back down into smaller entities, or something along those lines) it would have been impossible to rebuild. Instead, they did something in the middle, and barely 20 years passed and we got another war.  They should have listened to Wilson.

Well, making Germany into smaller countries would have been detrimental, because of a smaller GNP and the inability of these entities to repay the reparations to the Allies. In turn that would have hurt the overall European economy.

With some more speculation as my rationale, you also might have had the possible scenario of a divided Germany going to the Bolsheviks for help:

Danzig city (Poland) and the Sudetenland (Slovakia) could have easily been staging grounds for the delivery of weapons to the smaller German countries, whose forces would be bolstered by Russian troops.  A civil war erupts,and the allies, too weak from WW1 and unwilling to deal with Russia (a country twice the size of the U.S.) sit and watch the lower Eastern European and German provinces unite under the Communist banner.

Another reason to consider why a either a German, Allied, or combined post-WW2 assault on the Communists could have prevented a lot of pre and post-war issues.

[Umaril Has Returned]

Hey, maybe this speculation of mine would make a great series of scenarios for the next COD or Wolfenstein game! Pre-cursor stuff. Whata 'ya think?

[Allhallowsday]

I think, in time, history will view both World Wars as one war.  We're still living in the aftermath of these events.  I am glad that the Greatest Generation of Americans defeated the Axis and dragged the damned Nazis into the mud.  I also think Stalin was an even bigger turd than Hitler (king sh!theel that he was). 

[indianasmith]

I imagine they are roommates in hell, where flaming eels devour their genitalia for all eternity!