Who should be the next president?

[ulthar]

" THAT IS THE IMPORTANT RESULT."

thats subjective and your (attempted) reversal of the stories headline and focus is spin.

"I should also point out that Robert caught a TON of flack for that quote when it was published."

I don't know this guy or really care about his group other than his attempt to prove that guns could have prevented the hebdo killings failed by his own admission. or his study or whatever it was. guns aren't magic and society needs to weigh the advantages and disadvantages to allowing them. the latter are piling up if you can't see that you're blind

how about we give all Muslim immigrants guns and then deport them?

Okay, this is ridiculous.

Do you know what the word "sophistry" means?  It applies here to your acceptance of this article.

I'm saying something you don't want to hear and you are calling it spin and my subjective rewriting of the headline.

I'm telling you, I KNOW this study...I was not there during the sims themselves, but I was part of the discussion about the data before that article you are putting so much faith in was even published.  I'm telling you I can get the guy that was taken out of context to comment on your understanding of what he did...and actually said...and you are telling me, essentially, "blah blah blah...I don't want to hear that, I just want to believe what I want to believe."

Good grief.

Believe what you want.  If data and evidence won't convince you to alter your understanding, there really is no point in talking about it, is there?  I mean, it's just dogma at that point.

For anyone else playing at home....the simulations bore out exactly what I outlined above as I outlined them, and the results are 100% in alignment with analysis of real attacks (not simulations).  Anyone has any questions on the topic, feel free to PM me.

To summarize:

(1) In every case, the attack was disrupted...the attackers had to RESPOND to the counter-attack.
(2) In every case but one (or nearly so...going on memory), at least one attacker out of two was "killed."
(3) In one case, many innocents were "saved" by the use of the defensive firearm tactically to 'cover' the retreat and escape of everyone in the room.

Now, if one looks at (2) and (3) and conclude that it was a "failure," there's no hope.  And that's not what Robert said anyway, even as quoted in the article.  Here's what he said, as Lester himself quoted previously:

"The important thing to recognize here is if you're facing a coordinated terror attack by more than one gunmen, one gun can slow them down but it's not going to be enough to stop the killing," Farago said.

See that part..."one gun can slow them down"  

Nowhere did Robert Farago call it a "failure."

[ulthar]

Ulthar: 
I can't get the text of your many LONG WINDED remarks small enough to quote you, so I've omitted them.

(1) The rifle he used was not an automatic.  (1) The rifle he used was not an automatic.  (1) The rifle he used was not an automatic. 
 
I should have written semi-automatic.  Really?  What a twat you can be, though I love you, you are the exacting scientist and I'm just a poor uneducated fool, as you'd pointed out here on this forum.  You are my Grand King Poo-bah. 

Sorry if words mean things ...   

However, I might have been a little more forgiving on that point had not it actually been made an issue in the press.

But, I hope we are all clear that the legalities regarding automatic vs semi-automatic are VERY, VERY different...as are the capabilities of the firearms themselves.

[indianasmith]

And in the Indiana Smith Administration, ULTHAR will be National Science Czar!
And Secretary of Verbally Demolishing People Who p**s Me Off !     

[Skull]

Trump uses ugly, inflammatory rhetoric to demonize whole groups of people, and doesn't consider the consequences of his words.  That's what scares me about him. 

Sorry but you're falling into that Media Propaganda; they don't want Trump and pulling s**t out of there ass to make people like you think he's no damn good for the country. The founding fathers designed this country so we can get a Reagan or a Trump.

Trump has nothing to do with the terror attacks.

He will create far more enemies abroad than we already have, and that's not a good thing.

Before Obama was President and before Hillary was Secretary of State... ISIS didn't exist.

Before Obama was President Iran didn't get a nuke deal.

Before Obama was President North Korea was not testing nuclear weapons.

Before Obama was President The Cold War with Russia was consider over (he actually started a second cold war).

[indianasmith]

No, I just listen to what the man says, and I find it chilling and repulsive at the same time.

As far as your point for point - yes, ISIS was created by Obama's precipitous withdrawal from Iraq.  No doubt there.
Second point also true.
Third point - false, NK tested its first nuke while Bush was President.
Fourth - more ambivalent.  Putin had already started testing the waters during the last two years of Bush.

My point is not that Hillary is better.  My point is that both candidates SUCK! 

[Trevor]

And in the Indiana Smith Administration, ULTHAR will be National Science Czar!
And Secretary of Verbally Demolishing People Who p**s Me Off !     

 

I thought that second one was my portfolio 

[lester1/2jr]

"  If data and evidence won't convince you to alter your understanding, "

occum's razor dude. read the article, headline. it says what it appears to say. maybe you spend too much time in an echo chamber and can't see the forest for the trees. obviously someone having a gun will change any situation they're in but the terrorists in the hebdo attack had the drop on the victims. plus they're terrorists they don't care if they die in the act.

adjusting immigration policies would have been a much better way for France to have handled that, not to mention the welfare payments that draw so many of them. places like Poland and Japan have no terrorism because they have no Muslims


Indiana " ISIS was created by Obama's precipitous withdrawal from Iraq.  "

it was created by radical Islam and all these problems we're discussing moreso imo

[ulthar]

"  If data and evidence won't convince you to alter your understanding, "

occum's razor dude. read the article, headline.

The funny part, and yes, I'm laughing at you right now, is that you think the headline of a secondary article written by a non-participant in the event for a lay audience contains more information than the people that were actually THERE and conducted the simulations.

Stunning.

And, I don't think "Occam's Razor" means what you think it means.  On second thought, I'm sure it doesn't.  It does not mean "Waaaah, I want confirmation bias in my life so I will look at a headline of a article as factual."

Man, seriously.  Your are arguing from such a messed up position is truly is laughable.  And sad.

Now, when you want to re-engage in a discussion about the ACTUAL FACTS of that study, or any of the many other REAL WORLD events (that I notice you conveniently do ignore, even though I've referenced them several times), you let me know.  I'll be happy to debate it.

But what I won't do is try to engage in a conversation with someone that both misunderstands the nature of the problem that simulation was designed to explore AND willingly and admittedly refuses to acknowledge DATA and FACTS.

Geez...get it through your head.  Robert himself said in the quote you quoted that an single armed defender has an effect.

And your response is to go to the HEADLINE and article as the MORE authoritative source of information to dispute my claim that, uh, an armed defender has an effect?

You have lost ALL credibility with me.  I just can't take this conversation seriously anymore.

I offered to have Robert Farago himself clarify his remarks ... which may have agreed with YOUR take, by the way...who knows?...and you refused.

I think from that last fact alone it is pretty clear where the intellectual honesty lies in this particular discussion. 

[lester1/2jr]

"You have lost ALL credibility with me.  I just can't take this conversation seriously anymore."

lol

[Allhallowsday]

Ulthar: 
I can't get the text of your many LONG WINDED remarks small enough to quote you, so I've omitted them.

(1) The rifle he used was not an automatic.  (1) The rifle he used was not an automatic.  (1) The rifle he used was not an automatic. 
 
I should have written semi-automatic.  Really?  What a twat you can be, though I love you, you are the exacting scientist and I'm just a poor uneducated fool, as you'd pointed out here on this forum.  You are my Grand King Poo-bah. 

Sorry if words mean things ...   

However, I might have been a little more forgiving on that point had not it actually been made an issue in the press.

But, I hope we are all clear that the legalities regarding automatic vs semi-automatic are VERY, VERY different...as are the capabilities of the firearms themselves.

If you answered my questions, there were too many words typed there, y'know, all full of MEANING, for me to find such answers. 

http://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/bill-oreilly-takes-stunning-stance-154449244.html

[Skull]

No, I just listen to what the man says, and I find it chilling and repulsive at the same time.

Today there are only two ways to get elected... One play Santa or be aggressive. And I'm enjoying Obama and Hillary are playing defense on the Muslim issue.

As far as your point for point - yes, ISIS was created by Obama's precipitous withdrawal from Iraq.  No doubt there.
Second point also true.
Third point - false, NK tested its first nuke while Bush was President.
Fourth - more ambivalent.  Putin had already started testing the waters during the last two years of Bush.

Ok I was wrong about NK... If Putin was testing the waters with Bush, well he's sure is p**sing in the water with Obama...

[RCMerchant]

A very terrible thing happened in the USA yesterday.  Orlando.  There is lots of diversion and politics already attached to this tragedy.  The ease with which firearms may be purchased is really the issue. 

"Atrocity" is a better word than "tragedy".

Agreed. 

The issue is the intrinsic sickness within a single religion which has inspired most of the acts of hate-fueled mass murder that we've seen in recent years.

Your remarks are untrue, but akin in radicalism to those you condemn.  This murderer was an American, born right here, perhaps radicalized by some dopey source, but perhaps he was also a self-loathing homophobic closet case.  There have been many instances of mass shootings right here that had nothing to do with "radical Islam".  In each case, the easy acquisition of firearms figures prominently. 

And the ease with with firearms may be purchased is far less a cause here than the failure of a jurisdiction to allow citizens to be armed for self-defense, as is their Constitutional right.

Once again Islamic dogma motivated someone to slaughter an unarmed population, and once again people somehow fail to get that. Since Mohammad mandated the death penalty for homosexuals, why is it so many analyzing this crime seem unable to follow the trail to its source?

So... if victims who may have chosen to never own a firearm, had been armed, what melee would have resulted?  We have the second amendment, right?  Should we all walk around armed to the hilt?  And how often in a gun culture, like in our impoverished areas, do unlicensed persons pull a gun and pull the trigger right here in America born and bred?   

Why do so many in the west weep instead of feeling outrage?

I am not "weeping" and of course I am outraged, but I cannot condemn a religion, support actions that are bigoted, or fail to see some glaring facts that, politicized, you fail to see.  This murderer was deranged, probably burdened with shame and anger; an evil outfit like ISIS are quick to claim responsibility.  They want you to believe their narrative. 

Yer me f**kin HERO! Virtal karma my freind. 

[RCMerchant]

Trump uses ugly, inflammatory rhetoric to demonize whole groups of people, and doesn't consider the consequences of his words.  That's what scares me about him. 

Sorry but you're falling into that Media Propaganda; they don't want Trump and pulling s**t out of there ass to make people like you think he's no damn good for the country. The founding fathers designed this country so we can get a Reagan or a Trump.

Trump has nothing to do with the terror attacks.

He will create far more enemies abroad than we already have, and that's not a good thing.

Before Obama was President and before Hillary was Secretary of State... ISIS didn't exist.

Before Obama was President Iran didn't get a nuke deal.

Before Obama was President North Korea was not testing nuclear weapons.

Before Obama was President The Cold War with Russia was consider over (he actually started a second cold war).

And Obama caused all this stuff?
Quit being a kid.Your politics are like Steve Ditko.

[RCMerchant]

All this thats happining in the world happened-or would happen-wether Obama was in office or not.
To blame Obama for this s**t is -crazy talk-It would happen if Ronald f**king Reagan was president.Radical terrosit f**kers dont care whos president-theyll f**king kill you -black,white,yellow,red,pur-f**kin-ple!
Its a scary world-We dont need a millionare-Trump is a Svengali to RED NECK America.

[Allhallowsday]

All this thats happining in the world happened-or would happen-wether Obama was in office or not.
To blame Obama for this s**t is -crazy talk-It would happen if Ronald f**king Reagan was president.Radical terrosit f**kers dont care whos president-theyll f**king kill you -black,white,yellow,red,pur-f**kin-ple!
Its a scary world-We dont need a millionare-Trump is a Svengali to RED NECK America.

You crazy.  Me love you long time...