Faith

[ER]

Did you know ants capture other ants from rival colonies and enslave them? They also grow crops and even have livestock in the form of these worms they raise so they can eat the sugary secretions of the worms. Ants also construct bridges and boats and amazing networks of tunnels, and some build towering structures equal in proportion to skyscrapers. I really do marvel at ants.

If I had to do it over again I think I'd make a career of studying them.

[RCMerchant]

Do ants go to Heaven? I mean-if they are God's creation? Do ants have religion?  
Or is that just privileged for us? Is there an ant Messiah?  

These may seem like insane questions-I don't think so.

[ER]

I dunno, RC, but when I was a kid I saw a documentary that said all dogs go to Heaven.

[HappyGilmore]

I grew up Catholic.  Went to Catholic school until around 8th grade.  Found people in the church and congregation to be...hypocritical.  Years since then, I've fallen out with the church.

I don't know if I can say blatantly that I disbelieve...as in, I can't say I'm an Atheist.  I'm not setting foot in a church anytime soon and I don't begrudge anyone who lives that way.  

Young me fought and would try to disprove things.  Me, in my 30s...well, I'm calmer.  Let people be happy.

Is there anything? We don't know.  We won't know until our day of death.  

[indianasmith]

Anytime someone tries to tell me there are no animals in heaven, I pose one question:

Then how the heck is the lion supposed to lay down with the lamb?

[RCMerchant]

I dunno, RC, but when I was a kid I saw a documentary that said all dogs go to Heaven.

 I seen a documentary one where a hunter shot a duck in the face and his bill spinned around!
But he put it back it place and said-"It's Wabbit season!" 

[Svengoolie 3]

Are you an atheist?

I'm not really a believer in definate anythings really xD I dont like the finality that atheism implies, but I think Agnosticisms a bit too wishy washy in terms of the whole "there may be something, or there may not..." kind of vibe... I suppose thinking about it faith in the form of extended optimism works for me as a great comfort blanket...while I dont specifically believe in a creator believing that thinking positive will tend to skew things towards positive outcomes (Even if thats scientifically and statistically unlikely) is a great source of relief and comfort...

By and large I tend to have the outlook that "If something bad happens its chaos theory; nothing personal. lifes just like that. if a good thing happens then promoting that good vibe could potentially make more good things happen"

Admittedly its all a bit hippy dippy...but I've had a pretty happy 10 years or so doing that 

Sorry for the long winded reply...but I suppose the short answer is: I dont believe in a creator or an afterlife, But I wouldnt class myself as an atheist strictly...

 

Ok as an agnostic i have to reply here. I cannot claim to know there is no god. There could always be a higher being that created a clockwork universe running on automatic laws of physics that looks like it was not created by a higher power and if it is intelligent enough to do this it is too intelligent for us to comprehend. A deceptive god could not be disproven.

That said i am fairly certain that most major religions are mostly false and mostly if not purely human constructs created to maintain and justify worldly power and dominance by those in power. I believe the abrahamic religions are man made and the god they all portray is pure fiction meant to serve as the ultimate boogeyman plus a justification to terrorize,  torture and murder anyone who refuses to kneel before them.

The hindu religions have some better ideas than the abrahamic ones but i'm not sure about it either.

[Svengoolie 3]

And to be clear i do consider the abrahamic religions to be evil. They justify human evil like slavery,  murder,  rape,  torture,  theft,  etc. In all abrahamic religions the above evil acts are not only ok,  they are divinely permitted or even ordered. The abrahamic god represents the lowest aspects of humanity,  i consider it subhuman,  the opposite of divine.

Also when reviewed thoughtfully most of it can be disproven.  The story of jesus is bogus from beginning to end. The bit about joe and mary having to travel from nazareth to bethelem for taxes? Nonsense. There is no record whatsoever that the romans ever did anything like that. It's utterly absurd. People could pay their taxes in the town they lived. The romans never even thought of the returning to your home town to pay taxes. Travel then was time consuming. People spending weeks traveling are not working and producing wealth for the empire. The roads would be clogged,  travel would be impaired,  commerce would suffer,  etc. It's just nonsense meant to explain why jeez was born in bethelem but raised in nazareth.

As to the story of him rising from the tomb,  nonsense again. When romans crucified someone it was an act of torture and destruction. The bodies were treated like garbage,  fed to wild animals,  cut up and dumped in trash heaps,  etc. They were most certainly not turned over to their families for respectful burial. Nonsense from beginning to end.

[Pacman000]

Culture clash explains both events.

Romans may not have ordered anyone to move to their ancestral home, but a Jewish man might've wanted to return there before being counted.

Romans treated crucifixion victims as scum, but Jesus was a controversial figure, and the region wasn't exactly stable. One part of the population thought he was a prophet; the other thought he was a warlock. Push one side too far and you'd wind up with another revolt. So the governor did the practical thing instead of the moral thing. A group threatens the peace, saying this man could lead a rebellion? No evidence? Too bad; appease the complainers. Someone else asks for His body? Well...you had no real evidence. Appease him too.

[indianasmith]

Actually, while most crucifixion victims were dumped, there was an excavation in Jerusalem of a young Jewish man who was crucified and then buried with all traditional ceremony.  There was still a nail in his ankle.

[ER]

I grew up Catholic.  Went to Catholic school until around 8th grade.  Found people in the church and congregation to be...hypocritical.  Years since then, I've fallen out with the church.

Speaking from personal experience, if there's one thing that'll put you straight off God it's a strict Catholic school. One more reason my children don't go to one.

And, hey, on-topic, I see your karma has also hit the ever-popular 666.

[ER]

And to be clear i do consider the abrahamic religions to be evil. They justify human evil like slavery,  murder,  rape,  torture,  theft,  etc. In all abrahamic religions the above evil acts are not only ok,  they are divinely permitted or even ordered. The abrahamic god represents the lowest aspects of humanity,  i consider it subhuman,  the opposite of divine.

Also when reviewed thoughtfully most of it can be disproven.  The story of jesus is bogus from beginning to end. The bit about joe and mary having to travel from nazareth to bethelem for taxes? Nonsense. There is no record whatsoever that the romans ever did anything like that. It's utterly absurd. People could pay their taxes in the town they lived. The romans never even thought of the returning to your home town to pay taxes. Travel then was time consuming. People spending weeks traveling are not working and producing wealth for the empire. The roads would be clogged,  travel would be impaired,  commerce would suffer,  etc. It's just nonsense meant to explain why jeez was born in bethelem but raised in nazareth.

As to the story of him rising from the tomb,  nonsense again. When romans crucified someone it was an act of torture and destruction. The bodies were treated like garbage,  fed to wild animals,  cut up and dumped in trash heaps,  etc. They were most certainly not turned over to their families for respectful burial. Nonsense from beginning to end.

I am with you that one in three religions traceable to Abraham is a cult, founded by a pedophile crime lord, but the other two I am fond of.

On the other hand, human-centered philosophies, like Communism, have brought just SO much joy into the world, haven't they?

As for the harm religion does, it's like this....

There is a gay man I know who tried to torture my cousin and his friend, young gay males, and make them use heroin, and he has a long history of domestic abuse and violence, yet the same night he tried this I bet 10,000 gay men in our city had peaceful hookups, yet if this crazy fool (currently recovering from a bizarre bit of street crime that came his way and left him hospitalized, instant karma, eh?) had succeeded in doing harm to my cousin, which would have made the news, the 10,000 incidents of enjoyable wholesome M2M butt sex, or the one gay sociopath messing with two hot young things?

Likewise a billion Christians living good lives somehow doesn't erase the deeds of a few nutjobs.

That takes care of conduct, as for factual status...

If you could use Occam's Razor and give to me any better explanation for the Biblical resurrection claims than the fact Jesus rose from the dead, I'd be grateful to you, because then I could return to my default setting of pursuing sex, drugs, and rock and roll, but as much as I have put thought into it, I cannot but come back to the fact that given all that we know about subsequent events, Jesus indeed returned to life.

And if Jesus returned to life...well it's like finding the finger bone of a million-year-old primate in Kenya, and using that to build a profile for a whole creature. By that I mean if Jesus returned to life, why doubt all the rest?

Seriously, take it point by point and use the scientific method on the resurrection story. Consider how the Romans, history's greatest killers, gotta love them, would mess up and leave someone alive.

Consider how uninspiring a beaten crucified figure would have been after that. Hardly someone you'd follow to the death.

Consider how SOMETHING changed Jesus' followers from fearful men scattering before the law, to those so convinced of their message they were willing to die rather than recant. To them it was not even about faith, it was the evidence of their senses. You might make money off a con but why die for it? All but one of Jesus' original twelve who saw Jesus back alive was murdered for their belief. They could have saved their lives by recanting, but they did not.

Clearly an event of history-changing dimensions came to pass. What other event but a miracle would engender such devotion? And if there was a miracle, why try to say it was not the one several independent authors from that time described?

And, congrats, you attacked an idea this time without going after the people who hold it. That's true progress in maturing as person!

[Svengoolie 3]

Well,  ancient Rome was a brutal dictatorship that robbed the masses in Judea.  It was ripe for opposition to grow. The person the jeez myths are based on was clearly a charismatic leader who opposed roman dictatorship and was executed for it. As to how a religion arose, most of christiaity is copied from earlier religious mythology.  The creation myth is closely related to the Egyptian creation myth,  sanitized a bit.

The myth of Eden is clearly a dumbed down version of the Greek story of Prometheus and Pandora.

The story of jeezus being betrayed,  killed and raised is a lot like similar stories in religious history,  especially Horus from Egyptian myth. A lot of religions have people rising from the dead.

The whole story of jeezus being a "god man" is like the myths of other "god men" like Hercules,  Perseus,  Thor,  and other "god men" who were the illegitimate offspring of mortal women and gods.

Judea was ripe for an uprising and jeezus became the figurehead.  He was the lucky spark out of all the other potential sparks that could have started the fire if the wind had been a little different.  A revolution was inevitable,  he was just at the right time and place to become the rally point.

Also Christianity caught on due to politics in the roman empire. Nero was an unpopular emperor and decided to scapegoat Christians as a handy diversion from his own unpopularity.  Nero was so hated that his condemnation of the little cult lead people to respect it out of spite against Nero.

As Roman society decayed people sought something else to cling to. Christianity was the thing people picked.  Constantine latched onto it and there you go.


The fact chtristianty is means nothing.  Islam is huge too.  Does that make it right?

[lester1/2jr]

Svengoolie - some good points. I am a proponent of the "jesus as Robin Hood" sort of idea too. As you say, the region was ripe for rebellion and the old testament post babylonian exile predicts some sort of transformative figure to come in and do soemthing at some point.

I think Jesus came and left and a little later they were like "oh that was the guy wasn't it?" basically. misunderstood in his own time, as it were. the ending of the first gospel is pretty bleak I think thats more how it really was.

ER- I agree with you too though. Saying elements of the New testament are fraudulent or borrowed from other cultures does not mean at all that there was no such person as Jesus and that Christianity is some hodge podge. Jewish people who followed this belief stopped doing animal sacrifices, pagans stopped worshipping weird statues, people began living different kinds of lives. Why? All, 100 percent, of the first Christians were converts from something else. they didn't do it because they were like into Zorastrian mythology

[indianasmith]

Bleak?  OK, cut Mark off at Ch. 16:8 - what are the last words?  "Behold, He is not here, He is risen."
Those words were written within about 20 years of the actual event.  The eyewitnesses were alive.  Mark and Luke talked to them, Matthew and John WERE them.
As for all the alleged similarities between the dying and risen Jesus and all those other mythical figures, Osiris, Mithras, et. al. - the closer you look the more you see the differences were VAST and the similarities VASTLY overblown.
The fact is, Jesus of Nazareth was executed by the Romans.
Within a few weeks of that event, His followers were boldly proclaiming that He had risen from the dead and they had seen him.
The men who executed Jesus could have easily dragged His body out of the tomb and paraded it through the streets, and Christianity would have been strangled in its cradle.
And if there was no tomb, as some try to insist, despite the fact that EVERY account within the first hundred years after the event specifically says that there was?
They could have at least published an official rebuttal, with sworn affidavits from the soldiers that Jesus was dead, that they threw Him in the city dump, that they fed Him to their pet goldfish, or SOMETHING.
But what did they do?  At first, NOTHING.  Stunned silence from the same people who conducted an illegal trial and hired false witnesses to condemn Jesus to death.  Then, what?  Threats and bluster.  "Teach no more in this name or we'll flog you!"
And the disciples kept right on preaching.
What ER said is true - there is a gaping hole in the history of First Century Jerusalem that is the exact size and shape of a Resurrection.
NO OTHER explanation fits the facts as we have them.

That is why I believe.