The Unsaid Context of the Ukraine Conflict

[ralfy]

I can only do so because I know no one can counter the arguments raised in this issue.
One of the context of that issue is neoconservatism. Alan MacLeod has a meme about that here, referring to John Bolton.
https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1601695849180168193
...Since John Bolton is floating the idea of running for president, it's important as many people as possible know how much of a genocidal ghoul he really is...From Caitlin Johnstone,
https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1602081270103568384
...Some might say these two things are at odds with each other...
NATO chief argues that a full-blown war is a real possibility, and then greenlights drone strikes inside Russia. Brilliant.
From Bree Dail, Rome correspondent for the Daily Wire:
https://twitter.com/breeadail/status/1601159933273071618
...The Russians mock @JoeBiden for leaving behind a “hero, a decorated Marine” for “a black lesbian hooked on drugs”.
Is this effective propaganda?...From Mick Wallace, EU Member of Parliament:
https://twitter.com/wallacemick/status/1546172011763957762
...NATO is loving Ukraine War. Survey shows vast majority of #EU citizens want Peace, rather than promote a War to punish Russia - But NATO never wants Peace. With US + Russia, we now have 2 factions of Capitalist Imperialism waging War, with millions of Workers caught in middle...
which also covers my point about neoliberalism.
So, you see, there's nothing "Alex Jonesy" about these points: they've been well-known at least by those who study the matter carefully for sometime. Most are not expected to know these things, but you do now.

...Died weeks ago. You mean the war's over?

Even now you can't counter my points, which is why all you do is write about me. And then end with a self-contradictory conclusion. LOL.

Finally, I'll help you out so that we'll can remain on-topic, i.e., so that the thread won't be locked again:

In what way is this argument wrong?

"Ukraine Is the Latest Neocon Disaster"

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/07/01/ukraine-is-the-latest-neocon-disaster/

...The neocons championed NATO enlargement to Ukraine even before that became official U.S. policy under President George W. Bush, Jr. in 2008. They viewed Ukraine’s NATO membership as key to U.S. regional and global dominance...

Nuland has been the neocon operative par excellence.  In addition to serving as Bush’s ambassador to NATO, Nuland was President Barack Obama’s assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs during 2013-17, when she participated in the overthrow of Ukraine’s pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych and now serves as Biden’s undersecretary of state guiding U.S. policy vis-à-vis the war in Ukraine...

That's trolling. Is there anything revelant that you can give to counter the points that I raised?

[ralfy]

Believe it or not, from Kissinger, and only a few days ago:

"How to avoid another world war"

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-push-for-peace/

If the pre-war dividing line between Ukraine and Russia cannot be achieved by combat or by negotiation, recourse to the principle of self-determination could be explored. Internationally supervised referendums concerning self-determination could be applied to particularly divisive territories which have changed hands repeatedly over the centuries.

The goal of a peace process would be twofold: to confirm the freedom of Ukraine and to define a new international structure, especially for Central and Eastern Europe. Eventually Russia should find a place in such an order.

Here's the problem with Kissinger's argument: in the next paragraph, he argues that Russia has a propensity for violence but also provides equilibrium and a balance of power. Without it, the world will have vacuums that will be filled by even more war. He ends the paragraph by referring to it as "one of the world's two largest nuclear powers."

And that's the clincher: the other nuclear power is the U.S. What Kissinger doesn't say aloud is that the U.S. is very much like Russia: it also has a propensity for violence but acts as a counter to the other military powers.

In which case, any "nternationally supervised referendums" can't involved these two countries. Who will call the shots, and will the two abide?

[ralfy]

Some more articles, some with my comments:

"Europe accuses US of profiting from war"

https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/

Nine months after invading Ukraine, Vladimir Putin is beginning to fracture the West.

Top European officials are furious with Joe Biden’s administration and now accuse the Americans of making a fortune from the war, while EU countries suffer.

Did Putin expect that to happen, i.e., he knew that the EU depended on Russia for oil and gas, that the U.S. would sanction Russia even if it hurt the EU, and that similar would happen with other countries, i.e., they would rather remain neutral than take sides?

"WaPo Neocon Josh Rogin: Republicans Responsible for Ukraine Loss"

https://original.antiwar.com/daniel-mcadams/2022/11/13/wapo-neocon-josh-rogan-republicans-responsible-for-ukraine-loss/

Rogin’s real point is another feint. He claims that the global economic crisis is not caused by idiotic EU/US sanctions against Russia, which are turning Europe into a third world ghetto while Russia chalks up record profits, but by Russia itself.

The fact is, Russia has gazillions of tons of gas and oil to sell but has pivoted southwards for new customers in response to old and reliable customers walking away from the exchange. What a shock: business seeks new customers.

[Allhallowsday]

...I'm not interested in references to myself...

We ain't either. 

[ralfy]

...I'm not interested in references to myself...

We ain't either. 

Oh, the irony.

[Allhallowsday]

...I'm not interested in references to myself...

We ain't either. 

Oh, the irony.

It is ironic that I will defend your right to post what you want, yet typically it's long winded.  And I'll let you know that.   

[Alex]

He honestly believes no one can counter his tragically naive view of the conflict and its origins? I guess I am not missing anything important by skipping his posts then.

Well, that has been the case. The only I've seen that barely resembles a counter came from you. And even then your efforts left much to be desired, as you decided to focus on Iraq, a mistaken impression of WMDs, the incredibly ridiculous belief that no false flags were ignored, what appeared to be complete ignorance of the fact that Saddam was America's boy, and some weird belief that I was referencing military experts.

But to prove my point, let me raise the same question to you as I did to ER: in what way is the recent article I shared wrong? Is it the case that the U.S. didn't start to antagonize Russia via Bush, and that Nuland and others were in no way involved in destabilization efforts after?

Keep in mind that both have been documented, with the first known since Kennan raised warnings about belligerence and the second through Nuland's phone calls to the ambassador and her subsequent responses.

Once we deal with those matters, then we'll go to the other points.

Didn't read your post at first, but I did catch the line about me focusing on Iraq and then got caught by it. Go back and read my posts. Only person bringing that up was you and you kept going on about my not replying to anything you mentioned about it so I finally did respond, but not to any great deal. Even then, it was pretty clear you weren't understanding what I was saying. Feel free to keep talking rubbish though (and I have no doubt you will). I told you to use the right experts for the right situations. I didn't say you were using military experts, if fact I said the problem with your reply to a post was that you hadn't (kind of the opposite from what you've just claimed.

Your inability to understand, however, is not my obligation to explain.

I never said Saddam wasn't the US's boy. Hell, I even said I agreed with you. You are just continuing your regular pattern of making up things I have never said (which is a big part of why I rarely waste my time with your posts). You have literally taken a post agreeing with you, and created some whole debate that didn't happen outside of your own head. No wonder you think you are winning arguments when you are providing both sides of what you think has been said rather than what has actually been written.

Still, as I've said before self-belief, even when it is delusional is one of the keys to a happy life.

Oh, you also forgot I proved you wrong on Putin wanting to join NATO (amongst other things) despite you posting an article claiming it was all an invention of the west.

You aren't proving your points by linking articles (indeed as many people have told you, they aren't bothering to read them, myself included) but let me point something out to you.

A link isn't proof.

An article isn't proof.

An opinion isn't proof.

You have proven nothing, except that you can't get past your own confirmational bias. Since other people have complimented me on explaining my points clearly and well, I'll have to take your comment about me not doing so as being a purely 'you problem'. Sorry, but when multiple people told you that your posts weren't well done you maybe should have listened instead of just replying that they were fine.

Until the next time I accidentally catch part of one of your posts while scrolling past, cya.

What counterargument would you like to make about the topic thread?

This one I deliberately read because I was genuinely curious as to what your response would be.

My answer is none. I'd have to read more of your threads and click on your links etc which I am not going to do. You've already shown several times (and I've not even bothered to pull you up on all of them) that you don't do your due diligence and fact-check before posting, so I don't see why I would waste my time looking at them. Given your previous posts on what I'd term as this one's parent thread, I don't particularly feel bound to stick to the title topic.

[ralfy]

...I'm not interested in references to myself...

We ain't either. 

Oh, the irony.

It is ironic that I will defend your right to post what you want, yet typically it's long winded.  And I'll let you know that.   

The reason why it's "long-winded" is because the issue is complex.

But what's really ironic is that you have a lot of time to talk about me but can't offer any counter-arguments to this issue.

[ralfy]

This one I deliberately read because I was genuinely curious as to what your response would be.

My answer is none. I'd have to read more of your threads and click on your links etc which I am not going to do. You've already shown several times (and I've not even bothered to pull you up on all of them) that you don't do your due diligence and fact-check before posting, so I don't see why I would waste my time looking at them. Given your previous posts on what I'd term as this one's parent thread, I don't particularly feel bound to stick to the title topic.

The points I raised come from my earliest posts, and you read them. That means you have no answer because you have no counter-argument.

Don't be delusional: you have not shown "shown several times" that I don't do due diligence or even fact-check. Otherwise, I would have countered your points concerning that, too.

Given that, the only reason why you can't stick to the thread topic is because you are ignorant of this matter. If that's not true, then prove me wrong by countering the points raised about U.S. neoconservative policies from Bush onward in light of Ukraine.

[ralfy]

From 2004:

"US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

From 2013:

"John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi"

https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]"). In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.

Tyahnybok is a prominent leader in the Ukrainian protests, so perhaps it was only right that McCain met with him as he did with the others (we reached out to McCain's office to find out how much he interacted with Tyahnybok, but have not heard back at the time of writing). You can defintely understand, however, why Jewish leaders in Ukraine and abroad are concerned about him.

Related news reports:

"This one map helps explain Ukraine’s protests"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests/

Based on the protests in Kiev, it can sure look like Ukrainians want their country to integrate with the European Union and turn away from Russia. But a November poll found slightly different attitudes: 45 percent said they wanted the EU deal, 14 percent said they wanted to join with the Russian-led trade union, and 41 percent said they were undecided or wanted neither. In other words, joining the EU is about as popular as not joining the EU, both of which are more popular than snuggling up to Moscow.

"Far-right group at heart of Ukraine protests meet US senator"

https://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-mccain-far-right-svoboda-anti-semitic-protests?x

The World Jewish Congress has called for Svoboda to be banned along with the Jobbik party in Hungary and Greece’s extremist Golden Dawn.

Out on the streets of Kiev the red and black striped flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UIA) is regularly seen carried alongside flags carrying Svoboda’s logo.

[ralfy]

Related points to give context to the ideology of neoconservatism:

From WION:

https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1471176740768677893

#Gravitas | A "top secret" strike cell of US military dropped more than 100,000 bombs & missiles in Syria.

Reports claim the military unit inflicted many civilian casualties while US military leaders looked the other way.

@palkisu  asks: Is America hiding its war crimes in Syria?

From Sarah Abdallah, referred to by mainstream journalists as a propagandist for Syria:

"[T]his, while they pose as paragons of human rights and international law."

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1601279301118177280



Also,

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1600941315507658753

"Western media thrives on war propaganda"

NYT, 1990: "How to Choke Iraq"

1998: "American Bombs Make Iraq Stronger"

2013: "Bomb Syria, Even If It is Illegal"

2015: "To Stop Iran's Bomb, Bomb Iran"

The articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/07/opinion/how-to-choke-iraq.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/20/opinion/american-bombs-make-iraq-stronger.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/28/opinion/bomb-syria-even-if-it-is-illegal.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/opinion/to-stop-irans-bomb-bomb-iran.html

[Alex]

This one I deliberately read because I was genuinely curious as to what your response would be.

My answer is none. I'd have to read more of your threads and click on your links etc which I am not going to do. You've already shown several times (and I've not even bothered to pull you up on all of them) that you don't do your due diligence and fact-check before posting, so I don't see why I would waste my time looking at them. Given your previous posts on what I'd term as this one's parent thread, I don't particularly feel bound to stick to the title topic.

The points I raised come from my earliest posts, and you read them. That means you have no answer because you have no counter-argument.

Don't be delusional: you have not shown "shown several times" that I don't do due diligence or even fact-check. Otherwise, I would have countered your points concerning that, too.

Given that, the only reason why you can't stick to the thread topic is because you are ignorant of this matter. If that's not true, then prove me wrong by countering the points raised about U.S. neoconservative policies from Bush onward in light of Ukraine.

Afraid I haven't read your previous posts. If it pleases your ego to think so then please go ahead. Goes back to the whole self-belief is the key to happiness thing. If anything I've said addresses older what you've said in previous posts I'd put that down to coincidence and that you keep repeating the same points endlessly, even when they don't make the points that you think they do.

I didn't say I've shown several times that you don't fact-check or or do due diligence. I said you've shown that you don't do them. Quite funny that you'd claim I was being delusional when you've misread what was written and frequently make claims about conversations that did not happen. I mean thanks for proving my point. Didn't need the help, but thanks anyway. You should try actually reading what is written not what you think is written. If you want to think I am ignorant of the matter, feel free to keep thinking that. It really doesn't bother me. The world is a lot less one-note than you think though and much more complicated and intertwined.

Maybe the reason I am posting on this thread and not replying to your points is simply because I am treating you with the same contempt you treated the Crazy SOB thread when you were repeatedly asked to take it elsewhere and chose not to. But hey, feel free to keep massaging your ego and telling yourself otherwise, it is no skin off my nose. If it helps, I'd imagine once I am back home tomorrow, or at the latest when I head back to work in the new year, I'll be back to not having enough time to waste on your posts. Until then enjoy the boost you feel it gives you and keep adding 2 and 2 and making 22.

[ER]

Ukrainian candy is good. I'll post a bunch of links to it when I get home!

Fun fact: instead of corn syrup, beet syrup is often used to sweeten Ukrainian candy.

Til then, a Ukrainian nursery rhyme (though it doesn't rhyme in English):

The chicken bit little Ana's toe,
Then she sneezed and lost her nose,
So Granny bought in a duck
To chase the chicken home.
To chase the chicken home.
To chase the chicken home.

[ER]

As promised, links to Ukrainian candy:


https://www.snackanddestroy.com/p/this-ukrainian-candy-is-one-of-the


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Premium-Ukrainian-Assorted-Candy-Chocolate-Mix-Roshen-2-lb-23-types-different-candy-Includes-Our-Exclusive-HolanDeli-Mints/132129668


https://www.russianfoodusa.com/Ukrainian-Candy-Mix-450g-1.1lb/

Quote: "Famous sweets from famous Ukrainian manufacturers.
European sweets are prepared in compliance with all necessary technologies, which allows them to stay fresh and tasty for a long time. Chocolate and caramel candies from leading Ukrainian manufacturers: Roshen, AVK The contents of the mix may differ slightly from the illustration."




Sneak previews of future topics:

Ukrainian food:

"I love to cook and my family share my love. One day I thought: "Why not share the recipes of Ukrainian cuisine with other people?.." The more so because I know so many of them and cook these dishes every day for my family. I decided it was a good idea and wrote this Step-by-step Picture Cookbook for you.
Born and grown up in Ukraine, I’ve learned lots of best recipes from my mother, grandmother and mother-in-law. As you know, Ukrainians prepare meals with home-grown vegetables and greens. This allows to prepare healthy food that is very important. Home cooking is a huge part of Ukrainian culture and life style. Ukrainian cuisine is very diverse and has a rich history. And let me tell you a secret - the recipes described in this cookbook are actually very simple and . do not require much effort from you.
I am confident that you will like Ukrainian cuisine. Enjoy!"


Ukrainian fashions:

"When it comes to fashion in Ukraine, according to Julie Pelipas, “we have always had to fight for something”. The former fashion director of Vogue Ukraine who currently helms Bettter, a Kyiv-based vintage tailoring brand, is reflecting on a market that has only relatively recently flourished on the global stage. But her words carry added bite in the context of Russia’s February 24 invasion."



Ukrainian cars:

"In May 2018, “Bogdan” celebrated its 20th anniversary. On the occasion of the holiday, the company organized a large-scale all-Ukrainian action. Residents of the 9 largest cities of Ukraine - Kyiv, Vinnytsa, Khmelnytsky, Sumy, Odessa, Kremenchug, Poltava, Kherson, Ivano-Frankivsk - could ride all day in new “Bogdan” large buses and trolley buses free of charge.[7] The campaign covered cities that began upgrading municipal fleet of vehicles and moving from small class buses to modern large and ultra-large transport models. In 20 years, “Bogdan” produced more than 368 thousand vehicles. 18 781 of them are buses and trolleybuses."


Ukrainian attitudes toward sex:

"The truth is, Kiev probably does have some of the most beautiful women in the world – and they are present at all levels of society. They're the trophy wives coolly observing the world from the back of chauffeur-driven Bentleys, and the bored supermarket cashiers who will raise their eyebrows if you fail to produce the exact change."

[Alex]

Thanks for that ER. I might see if I can order some.