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Author Topic: Faux fur is murder!  (Read 4885 times)
Jim H
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2002, 06:44:34 AM »

An interesting note: in many developing countries, they breastfeed up til around the age of 5.  The reason is simple: when woman are breastfeeding, they are much less likely to get pregnant.  I forget the exact reason, but it's true for most women.  Not all, of course, as like many of our evolutionary adaptions, it is fading away as natural selection doesn't really effect us anymore.

Oh yeah, and I think if you're not willing to breast feed your children, you shouldn't have them.
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Jim H
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« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2002, 06:47:43 AM »

"Cross eggs off that list, the chicken embryos have to die in order for you to have eggs without little dead chickens in them.

One thing I've always wondered about the people who oppose the killing of animals for food; Is it ok with them if you eat an animal that dies of natural causes?"

The chicken embryos don't have to die, as the ones you get in the store were never fertilized.  It's the equivalent of...  Well, to be fairly disgusting, eating (drinking rather) menstrual blood.

And on the second question: they would not have a problem with that.  At least any one of them with half of a brain.  Carrion is good eatin'!
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Squishy
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« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2002, 07:58:28 AM »

Here's a fun thought:

Too Much Coffee Man: "Cows are fed growth hormones and antibiotics that cause sores and ulcers, so cow milk has a fair bit of pus in it."
Cow: "It's not my fault."
--Shannon Wheeler, "Too Much Coffee Man's Amusing Musings"

Personal view: if there's a better alternative, I'm all for it. I drink soy milk, which (once you find the right brand, in the milk section, not produce) actually tastes pretty damn good and has a LOT less "problem" elements. (Until we find out otherwise, which shouldn't be long, as industry always sacrifices safety first to increase profit. Don't you wish Big Government would just GET OFF THEIR BACK? Cough.) I like cheese and yogurt too much to care if the cow p**sed in it. Well, maybe.

I eat red meat, but a lot less than I used to. Used to love veal, until I found out how it was made; I still indulge in the occasional burger and still like my pizza toppings, but e.coli--and the thought of animals living and dying the way they do in the food industry--has changed my intake. Almost all of my "meat" intake comes from peanut butter, soybeans, fish, and eggs now. Love a good omelet. And I cannot resist fried squid.

My own little leftie-rightie conflicts:

Left wing: Just because stupid animals tear apart other stupid animals doesn't make it a good thing for US to do. We're not stupid animals. Cruelty is NOT a higher brain function; neither is overfishing to the point of depletion. Right wing: We are built to consume meat; we just don't need to torture it for its entire life, then kill it violently.

Right wing: If a hippie sticks his or her head out of the top of a moving vehicle, he deserves anything he or she gets, in terms of head injuries--just as anyone who climbs a tree without a safety line deserves what they get when they fall. Left wing: Don't trust the people who gave you strip-mining in the 80s to manage forests today.

Right wing: Animal testing CAN save lives. Left wing: Scrubbing cosmetics into animals' eyes or repeating the same exact vivisection experiment for the millionth time will not help anyone. Someone once joked that "if electrocuting a chimp would prolong his life by ten seconds, (he) would gladly do it." My version: "Too bad you're not a chimp; however, perhaps one day, electrocuting you will prolong MY life, and we will see how you feel then while I'm wiring you up."
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AndyC
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« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2002, 10:46:56 AM »

I've read that grains aren't really a big part of our natural diet, but something that came with the development of agriculture. Fruits and veggies are what should make up the biggest part of our diet. A good deal of the obesity around today is as a result of consuming far too many carbohydrates. Not to mention that wheat really only took over in the last century or so, and has been modified over the years to give more gluten and less husk. Crops like spelt, now making something of a comeback, are a little more typical of what was farmed in the distant past, and are much healthier.

Just to add my own obnoxious hippy story, I remember a really funny one from  a few years back. It was around 1990, give or take, when environmentalism was especially hip. I was in Toronto, buying breakfast at McDonalds. This was when they still had the polystyrene boxes, but would happily substitute paper. This guy ahead of me tells the cashier what he wants, and very rudely tells her, in no uncertain terms, that he wants it in paper. She goes back to get his order, then returns and explains that the paper will take a few minutes (they were busy), and asked if he would rather wait or take it in a box. The guy freaks out on her. I mean, he really bit her head off, just for giving him a choice. It just p**sed me off beyond belief. Then he stepped aside to wait, and I got up to order - "two Sausage McMuffins IN A POLYSTYRENE BOX." The guy didn't mess with me. I suppose it was because I was not some little teenage girl who had to be polite to him. Coward. But you should have seen the look on his face.

There was another incident around that time, when I was in a McDonalds in Kitchener, and some young guys were sticking a video camera in the faces of the staff, asking how they felt about being part of the destruction of the environment. Imagine asking some 16-year-old kid, working part-time, making minimum wage to earn a bit of spending cash, a question like that. Talk to the executives of the company, or at least to the owner of the restaurant. Of course, the owner would probably be able to handle these losers better than a cashier stammering out an uncomfortable answer. Again, like most bullies, these guys were cowards.
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Gerry
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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2002, 01:32:28 PM »

babydoll wrote:
>
> PETA can go live in India where they worship the cow!

Actually India has its share of problems too.  The Hindus, as you mentioned, worship the cow, but enjoy eating pork.  The Muslim population of India, however, do not eat pork for religious reason, but think beef is very tasty.

Kind of leads to a bit of a conflict of interest wouldn't you say?
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Chadzilla
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« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2002, 01:54:59 PM »

Squishy wrote:
>
> Here's a fun thought:
>
> I like
> cheese and yogurt too much to care if the cow p**sed in it.
>

I guess that explains the tart flavor of Cheddar Cheese.  Well, maybe.

YUCK!!!

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Chadzilla
Gosh, remember when the Internet was supposed to be a wonderful magical place where intelligent, articulate people shared information? Neighborhood went to hell real fast... - Anarquistador
AndyC
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« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2002, 03:08:20 PM »

Jim H wrote:
>
> I didn't realize nature was attempting to achieve something.

Some of us like to think there is a purpose to all of this. Looking at nature, most successful species, whether plant or animal, have the ability to spread. It is not that difficult to believe, as we become a spacefaring species, that we will one day spread life from our planet to others, allowing life from Earth to survive the death of our sun, billions of years from now. That, to me, would seem to be the logical direction for nature to go. For all we know, that's how life came to Earth.

If this is all random chance, and all we do is of no significance (an idea that seems ludicrous to me), why not just nuke ourselves now?

The way I see it, there is a meaning to everything that we have not yet advanced far enough to grasp. Like a dog can look at a picture and not recognize the image, we have not yet developed the sophistication to truly understand why we are here.

To say that there is no purpose in nature, no plan, no guiding intelligence, simply because we cannot see or understand it is, to me, far more arrogant than believing ourselves superior to animals. That is where we, as humans get too big for our britches.


> And humans are not a great achievement..  The fact that most
> of us think we are negates any possibility of it.

I think the fact that we can even begin to understand the meaning of an achievement makes it very likely to be true, unless another species comes along that can argue against the point.

I imagine hosility to the idea is based on so many people using it as a licence to run roughshod over the Earth, which it isn't. We need to accept the responsibility that goes with our abilities. We have the power to destroy the Earth, but have as much power to protect and nurture as we have to destroy.

I kind of see humanity as being in adolescence. We can do a lot more things than we used to, and we're having fun with it, without too much thought of the consequences. Like the kid who doesn't want to be seen with his parents, many of us have also turned our backs on God. We think we know everything, but there is much more to learn. Someday we'll grow up.

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« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2002, 04:33:01 PM »

Actually India has its share of problems too. ...

Kind of leads to a bit of a conflict of interest wouldn't you say


Eat 'em all and let God sort 'em out

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Dano
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« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2002, 05:00:36 PM »

If someone I didn't know tried to stick a sharp pin on my kid (yes - I understand he was pinning it to clothes, but that is right next to the skin), I doubt very much that it would have ended at just one punch in the face.  Messing with a man's kid?  That's eye-gouging territory.  The self-control some people have amazes me.

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Dano
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raj
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« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2002, 05:34:29 PM »

Not much I can add to this news story:
Pampered Porkies Get a Better Start in Life
LONDON (Reuters) - Piglets may be happy wallowing in .... but they get a much better start in life if they are nurtured on a warm waterbed.

Instead of snuggling up to their mothers for warmth in their cold pigsty and running the risk of being crushed -- a common cause of early porcine death -- German scientists said waterbeds could be a safer alternative.

When Martin Ziron and researchers at the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics in Giessen, Germany tested various heating methods on 1,400 piglets during their first few weeks of life, waterbeds won hands down.

"Around 99 percent of the piglets preferred warm waterbeds to any of the alternatives, spending well over half the day lounging about on them and only getting up to feed or play," New Scientist said Wednesday.

. . .
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?
tmpl=story2&cid=570&ncid=753&e=6&u=/nm/20021120/sc_nm/science_pigs_dc
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Fearless Freep
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« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2002, 08:32:28 PM »

I can think of few places *I'd* rather be than a warm waterbed

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John
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« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2002, 11:39:09 PM »

>The way I see it, there is a meaning to everything that we have not yet advanced
>far enough to grasp.

 What's the meaning of Sept. 11th?

>Like the kid who doesn't want to be seen with his parents, many of us have also
>turned our backs on God. We think we know everything, but there is much more
>to learn. Someday we'll grow up.

 I've seen this attitude before and often heard things like "God has a plan", "There's a purpose to everything, we just can't see it.". I know this might alienate some people but as far as I'm concerned, this is crap.

I'm not a believer, but if God does exist, one of two things *MUST* be true; that he doesn't love humans as much as people seem to think, or he isn't all powerful. Most people just ignore logic when dealing with this issue, but if you think about it for a second it makes sense.

"All powerful" means that there are no limits to your power. Want to abolish evil, cure all diseases and make everything perfect? No problem. If he IS truly "all powerful" then the only reason evil, disease and the rest of the problems exist in the world is because he allows them to exist when he could easily fix them. Saying "God has a plan" is basically saying he wants these things to happen. Why else wouldn't he just make these problems disappear? It can't be because he wants to accomplish something by allowing them, remember, he's "all powerful" and could just wave his hand and have the end result instantly with no suffering required. So human suffering is something he wants to happen or he just doesn't care. Would any parent let their child not only burn themselves on a hot stove, but set themselves on fire and die, just so that they could learn for themselves? Of course not, but that's exactly the justification people use to explain suffering in the world.

On the other hand, if he *NEEDS* these things to happen so that he can accomplish something, then it means that he ISN'T "all powerful" because he shouldn't NEED anything to happen to get the end result. Don't like the devil messing with people's minds? Just cut off his access to the world, or instantly make him good. Having a problem with evil messing up your creation? Just wave your hand and get rid of it. If you wanted to get rid of an ant colony in your yard, would you try to lead some other creature over to do the job for you or would you spray the entire area with Raid?

An "all powerful" being doesn't NEED anything to happen, he CHOOSES to have/let things happen. if he NEEDS them to happen, then he isn't "all powerful".
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wheresthecarrot
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« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2002, 01:17:30 AM »

I don't belive in God or an "All powerful,"  but I do belive in fate and things happening for a reason....just because we can't figure it out doesn't mean there's not a reason for things happening.  At least, in my opinion.

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J.R.
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« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2002, 03:21:03 AM »

<>

If life were a cakewalk in which nothing bad ever happened it would be pretty boring. It would be heaven, come to think of it. I like to think of life as a heaven prep course; it's our chance to make mistakes, do wrong, have wrong done to us, and decide whether we want to lead a good or bad life. I think of God in much less linear and doom-and-gloom terms than most organized religions. We're basically given life as a test. Live a good life and help others on this tough road and you go to heaven, live a bad life and hurt others without remorse and you go to hell. And if you're an atheist, well, you can go to hell too. Just kidding!

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AndyC
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« Reply #59 on: November 21, 2002, 06:32:53 AM »

J.R. makes a good point. To abolish evil would be to abolish free will, which would make no sense. Why create rational beings who can make choices, then limit their choices?

Consciousness and free will are the most special of our gifts. In a universe governed by the cause and effect of physics, we have the ability to influence things. If that is just an illusion, as some philosophers have suggested, why do we have consciousness? Why do we have the ability to perceive and think and make choices if we are just going along for the ride? The nature of consciousness itself is a mystery.

I think George Burns said it best in OH GOD. "Is my existence any more improbable than your own?"

I'm pretty sure God is not exactly the way most religions see Him, and I doubt very much that He is as interested in the small details of our lives as some people would suggest. Still, I believe there is an intelligence to the universe, and there is much more out there, and within ourselves, than we can see.

As for Sept. 11, don't be silly. When I say there is meaning in everything, I mean in all of existence, not each specific event. On the other hand, we do learn much from evil deeds, and they do have a way of bringing out the good in many people. Following that one horrible act, there were countless stories of people pitching in to help, and people taking stock of their own lives and their own priorities. That is not meant to defend or condone evil, but simply to say that it might also have some purpose in the grand scheme of things, if only to spur good people to action.

Again, if all we can see is all there is, we might as well nuke ourselves now. Frankly, I've seen enough to tell me that there must be much more than I can see. Otherwise, things just wouldn't make sense.

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