Rock music sucks now days

[superdude]

Avant-Garde is good music, everyone should check out this band

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/153/maudlin_of_the_well.html

they combine death metal, jazz, adult contemporary , progressive rock, best band I've heard in awhile

[wickednick]

Thanks for all the input guys ive fond some really cool new bands. Also if your looking for music go to amazon they have a s**tload of underground metal,I was very surprised by there selection.

[NiGHTS]

Dillinger.  That's all I have to say.  The DillingerEscape Plan will silence those that say that 'Jazz and Blues are more complicated!', because this metal band has its roots in those styles.  Off time signatures, complex, complex rhytmic arrangements, (And Mike Patton-from Faith No More, Mr. Bungle-- on the new EP), and major, major pain.  You will be unable to look at metal the same way after these guys.

[Fearless Freep]

I'm sorta suprised because I didn't say Jazz was rhytmically complicated or that Rock wasn't. Being a big fan of Rush, Yes, and Dream Theater, I know better than that.  

However, regardless of complexity, rock music usually follows an underlying drive that is based on a stright feel, not  a swing feel.  That's what makes rock sound like rock.  Jazz traditionally uses a sing feel which, while not really any more complicated than a straight feel like in rock, can be very challenging to play live in an esemble because it's all based on how everyone is swinging at the time, very much an 'at the moment' feel, so it requires more musical awareness to what's going on in that moment than does a straight eight feel.  Playing in 7 or 9 is pretty easy if you play it straight and work off an eigthth note count.  But playing in 5 with a swing feel is conceptually pretty simple but the executation is much more subtley demanding, especailly if you are doing it in a manner where the fact that you are playing in 5 is obscured behind the swing feel

The same thing applies to harmony theory.  You rarely see a rock or metal band playing something like Eb7(#9) /  B9(13)  | EM9 / A7(#11)  |  Db9sus  / B9(13) |  Db7sus /  Eb7  | (the opening A section from Charles Mingus' "Goodby Pork Pie Hat")  Yet there is a lot of harmonic information implied within those chords where your basic minor scale or pentatonic riff is just not going to work across those changes.  That sorta extension just isn't used in rock metal under most conditions.  That's not a criticism of rock, rock music just has a certain sound that doesn't need those sorts of chords.  What's evern rarer in rock, especially in the more complicated forms, is full scale band improvisation through those sorts of changes

Making the difficult sound difficult is pretty straightforward, make the very difficult sound so easy that nobody realizes it is a lot harder.

I don't mean to imply that metal  can't be demanding or challenging or complicated or interesting, all I'm saying is that I have a hard time labelling musicians as 'the best in the world' unless they can master techniques that are not normally found within that genre of music.

[wickednick]

Dude I know the guys from Dillinger.I have alot of friends who are in bands.Seeing as how you know of Dillinger have you ever heard of NSA(New Society of Anarchy)

[NiGHTS]

No, I'mnot familiar with NSA.  Anyway, Freep, I really, really encourage you to check out Dillinger.  And don't turn it off just at the beginning because you don't like how it sounds--listen for a little longer, and I -DARE- you to count out some of the rhythms.  I suppose the song '43% Burnt' is a good place to start.  It's even got a sweet jazz breakdown in it.  I don't think there's any point in that song with swing feel..but..eh..just listento it anyway.

[Fearless Freep]

I don't think there's any point in that song with swing feel..but..eh..just listento it anyway.

Well that's sorta my point :) There are a lot of aspects of music that just aren't found in rock music, at least not usually.  It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with rock music or rock musicians.  It just means that you can't really make a blanket statement like "metal musicians are the best musicians in the world" because there are whole areas of musical mastery that simply aren't found in metal normally.   You definately don't hear it enough to grant that title to the whole group.  That was my point, not that "metal is simple" or "metal is bad" or anything.

I suppose the song '43% Burnt' is a good place to start.

I'm trying but I can't seem to find an MP3 that I can download (mp3.com doesn't like my browser and finding an mp3 that doesn't resolve back to something at mp3.com is proving difficult"

[Fearless Freep]

OK, I got a copy of 43% burnt

I -DARE- you to count out some of the rhythms.
Idid.  Although the song has a lot of starts and stops,  it's prety much entirely a 4/4 time signature at roughly 129 bpms. The breaks and starts still work with a 4/4 time.  I figured out the time, set my metronome, started the song, and three minutes in it was still matched up  There's some variation in using an primarily eighth note feel versus a strong reliance on sixteenth notes,  that makes the song seem to speed up and slow down, but it doesn't really.

[JackFlack]

~sigh~
I dunno even where to begin on this.  Most of the stuff you say sucks, I actually enjoy.  I listen to rap moreso than rock, but most of the bands you mention are more "alternative" than rock.  I'm not into HARD rock... I'd rather my music have some melody than mindless screaming/wailng on guitars.  

I've been impressed by all of Linkin Park's albums, this is the band that you hate that I really like.  Maybe they're not really your style, I guess you just pretty much hate it when they combine rap and rock together.  When it's done well, it's damn good if you're into hip-hop.  

"Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?"

[NiGHTS]

Erf.  Now that I think about it, you're right.  Wait...lemme find a better example.  Hmm.  Okay, Converge.  With at least some of them..I reccomend Two Day Romance or The Saddest Day.  As for Dillinger--what did you think, by the way?--find a few of their instrumental tracks.  I think Calculating Infinity (If I can remember correctly, swing feel out the wazoo..)  would be a good place to start, and check out The Running Board as well.  Ahm...hmm.  Oh, nevermind.  I'm gonna go listen to some Jeff Beck for about nine hours, then some new Radiohead.  Rooock.

Jackflack:
Mindless, no.  There is more artfulness in half of a DIllinger riff, and in half a stanze, than in the entire Meteora album.  The only problem is, it is ANTI-melody.  There's beauty in discord.  Please don't use mindless to describe this type of music, unless it actually IS mindless--there are a LOT of emo/screamo/metal/hardcore bands that blow, and blow hard.  
Secondly, what impressed you about Linkin Park?  I find nothing special.  I'm big into hip-hop, GOOD hop-hop at least, Busta, the Heirogliphix, Diggable Planets was cool, Wyclef, I could go on.  Rap and rock works wonders when done right: Rage Against the Machine proved that.  However, there's just nothing particularly impressive about anyhthing Linkin Park is doing--Chester has a good scream, a good voice, but it's usually layered in too many effects for you to notice, and lyrically, it's inane 'I hate myself' or 'I hate you', or 'There's something wrong with the world' stuff that panders to the preteen crowd.  That' and musically, it's incredibly simple, basic harmonies, basic rhythms, hackneyed hooks, with a little bit of techno influence.  What's the point?  I've heard this all before in To Cut The Sky With Wire.

[wickednick]

Jackflap one of my big problems with Linkin Park is that they don't even do Rap/rock well.They suck at it.There singer is sounds like a whiny little b***h most of the time,and the music it self sucks.It just sounds like everything else on the f**king radio.
Ill say im not a fan of rap in fact I hate rap.Ill admit that raping takes some talent but the beats suck.There just the exact same beats from a hundred other rap songs, but they've just had a little tweaking to there sound to try and make them sound not diffrent.The actuall music of rap sucks.

[Fearless Freep]

As for Dillinger--what did you think, by the way?

I didn't really care for "43% Burnt" much.  It had some interesting themes in a few places that should've been expanded and worked with for some good potential, but they switched themes so frequently that none of them really had a chance to get established.  It was like watching a movie trailer; short bursts of something that should be expanded.

The drums and guitar spent too much time doubling each other, rythmically. There were a lot of places I thought, especially when the guitar sped up, that if the drums had dropped under the guitar and carried a strong groove underneath the guitar's rhythmic that it would've driven the song much more powerfully.  Having the snare constantly matching the guitar chords, though, weakened the impact.   (There is a part later in the song, right before the outro, that the drummer does back off and plays a straight 2-4 snare hit under the guitar work, for a few measures, that works more effectively than most of the rest of the song.)  Doubling guitar and drums can work, but it works best as a contrast, not a continous pattern

There were a couple of places , in the faster parts, where they slowed down a bit, just a little bit that sounded like the musicians were having a hard time keeping up the parts at that tempo (I noticed it around the 27 to  35 sec mark, for example)  I found this a bit jarring, it's very disconcerting to hear someone trying to play a fast part and have them drag it a bit because they can't quite keep it up.  Better to set a slower temp and nail it then to go for a faster tempo and drag it.

All of this was ruined by a singer, who, well, can't sing.  Yelling one note for three and a half minutes is boring.  The song really had no melody and so there was nothing to really grab the listener's attention and say "listen to this"  Any interesting themes developing in the rhythm section that could've worked and been enhanced with a good melody (from vocals or a second guitar) were totally drowned by and ruined by the vocals

All told, it sounded like an effort by some young musicians who have a fair amount of physical talent and some potentially interesting ideas but who need to get a lot more experience in song craftsmanship to really utilitize those talents and develop those ideas, and find another vocalist

[Drezzy]

I do like rap and rock when it's combined good. 311, Body Count, Rage Against The Machine, the almighty STUCK MOJO...

The problem is that Linkin Park doesn't combine it good. They're just *NSync with guitars, with an image strategically designed to appeal to teenagers that hate their parents. We in the metal world call them "mallf**ks," because they'll usually be found at the mall hanging near Hot Topic or similar stores.

Of course, I'm not saying you're necessarily one of them. Hell, Linkin Park has some catchy beats, I'll admit that, and "Crawling" isn't too bad. But they're just a boy band trying to be hardcore.

And you can have melody while still being heavy. In Flames, Beyond The Embrace, Black Label Society, Dark Tranquility, and a ton of other bands are good examples.

[Drezzy]

The Psychopathic Family rappers (ICP, Twiztid, and probably a few others; Esham, I think) all use really good beats. Sure, Violent J of ICP can't rap for s**t, but he's a really good producer.

[wickednick]

I would like to say to all of those people who think singers in metal bands can't sing.Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so.There is a need for a lot of control when it comes to singing heavy metal.And there is a lot of techniche that goes into it.Look at bands like Fear Factory,Sepultura,Slayer,Cradel of Filth and Strapping young lad.These bands have some great metal singers and I would chalange anyone to sing like them.