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Author Topic: disney nazi film "Der Fuehrer's Face"  (Read 10975 times)
peter johnson
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2004, 03:05:09 PM »

This is a very interesting post -- lots of different letters worth commenting on --
* * * * *
Chris K. writes to ignore his remark about the Germans not being forced to read Mein Kampf & eat stale bread during WW2, as it doesn't serve his point.  I'm not real clear what his point was.  Is it that it was bad for America to make "propaganda" cartoons?  It's a funny thing, but in point of fact the Germans WERE forced to do just that.  Most grain was diverted to the rocket & jet fuels programs, and the available bread was mostly cellulose (re. sawdust).  In 1944, the potato harvest was diverted as well.  My friends Hermann & Lisl Moter got married in Rossdorf about this time.  Their wedding ceremony consisted of their being asked if they were of pure Aryan blood & being handed a copy each of Mein Kampf.  I've seen these books, and Lisl's German Mother's badge.  As an official German Mother, she was expected to read passages from & meditate upon sections of Mein Kampf every day.
* * * * *
Vermin, as ever, is 100% dead-on in his pop-culture references.  If y'all haven't already, seek ye all Spike Jones recordings & listen carefully, especially the original "Fuehrer's Face" & "Cocktails for Two".  Unrivaled insanity.
* * * * *
I don't think Disney was "forced" to do anything by the Government during WW2.  Didn't Walt volunteer Disney's services to the military, and take an active interest in the films being produced?  Especially "The 3 Caballeros", which was an attempt to ingratiate America to our South American neighbors & the need to get them involved in the War effort?  "Victory Through Air Power" is another serious Disney-made wartime cartoon, which examined & promoted the theories of Curtiss LeMay & Doolittle, among others, that massive air power could defeat the Axis.  As far as I know, nobody :"forced" the Disney studios to do any of this & instead they were actively involved with the process & in figuring ways to make the cartoons more effective.  Was this a bad thing?  
* * * * * *
Seen through the eyes of 2004, cartoons made in 1944 are sometimes bewildering in their sensibilities.  I'm not sure which "gremlins" cartoon is being talked about here, but in its own way, the Warner Bros. "Gremlins From the Kremlin", which shows cute Communist gremlins torturing Hitler & disabling his 'plane, is even more troubling.  Which is more offensive:  A cartoon that portrays American "patriotism", or one which minimizes the credible threat of Soviet totalism & feeds the "Uncle Joe" Stalin image?  Yep, the Russians were our allies alright -- doesn't mean we didn't need to be careful of them as well.
* * * * * *
Yes, racism is wicked, and was all over the popular mindset of Western culture in the 1940's.  I think you have to be careful with where your outrage is placed, however.  America made Bugs Bunny cartoons showing very offensive caricatures of Germans, Negroes, Italians, Japanese, American Indians, etc.  Stack all of these cartoons together & you still have nothing that equals the virulence of "The Omnipresent Jew (Das Ewige Juden)" from Germany.  Call whatever the official American government line was at the time "propaganda" if you must, but then I think you have to find a new word/different word for the practices of Joseph Goebbels and the German Ministry of Propaganda.  I suppose you can argue matters of degree, of course, but I think it does little to observe that a pond is wet when there's a tidal wave coming to crush you.
peter johnson/denny crane
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peter johnson
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2004, 03:08:57 PM »

Also, weren't Max and Dave Fleischer brothers, and not Father and Son?  I've often read of/heard of "The Fleischer Brothers".  If that wasn't Max and Dave, then who?
peter johnson/denny crane
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JohnL
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2004, 05:42:30 PM »

>I'm not sure which "gremlins" cartoon is being talked about here,

The one with Bugs flying a bomber and the cute little gremlin keeps trying to sabotage it. It's been several years since I've seen it, but I believe at one point, the gremlin is banging on the nose of one of the bombs with a mallet. In the end, the plane ends up vertically, nose down, inches from the ground.
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Chris K.
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2004, 07:42:02 PM »

peter johnson wrote:


> Chris K. writes to ignore his remark about the Germans not
> being forced to read Mein Kampf & eat stale bread during WW2,
> as it doesn't serve his point.  I'm not real clear what his
> point was.  Is it that it was bad for America to make
> "propaganda" cartoons?  It's a funny thing, but in point of
> fact the Germans WERE forced to do just that.  Most grain was
> diverted to the rocket & jet fuels programs, and the available
> bread was mostly cellulose (re. sawdust).  In 1944, the potato
> harvest was diverted as well.  My friends Hermann & Lisl Moter
> got married in Rossdorf about this time.  Their wedding
> ceremony consisted of their being asked if they were of pure
> Aryan blood & being handed a copy each of Mein Kampf.  I've
> seen these books, and Lisl's German Mother's badge.  As an
> official German Mother, she was expected to read passages from
> & meditate upon sections of Mein Kampf every day.

Uh, you know Peter, I don't know why I asked for that particular comment to be ignored. And I am not sure what my point was at that time either (it was 2003 when I posted it; my mindset has changed since). Either way, you are indeed correct on your recent comment and your point is well taken by me. Looking back at it, I really don't know what my specific drive was at that time. Hope you don't think very little of me because of it; again, I really don't remember what point it was I was driving at. Sorry.

> Yes, racism is wicked, and was all over the popular mindset of
> Western culture in the 1940's.  I think you have to be careful
> with where your outrage is placed, however.  America made Bugs
> Bunny cartoons showing very offensive caricatures of Germans,
> Negroes, Italians, Japanese, American Indians, etc.  Stack all
> of these cartoons together & you still have nothing that equals
> the virulence of "The Omnipresent Jew (Das Ewige Juden)" from
> Germany.  Call whatever the official American government line
> was at the time "propaganda" if you must, but then I think you
> have to find a new word/different word for the practices of
> Joseph Goebbels and the German Ministry of Propaganda.  I
> suppose you can argue matters of degree, of course, but I think
> it does little to observe that a pond is wet when there's a
> tidal wave coming to crush you.

Well, you are right about THE OMNIPRESENT JEW, I have seen that particular Propaganda film from Goebbels and it is what it is: Propaganda. As a matter of fact, when Fritz Lang's 1931 German classic M was re-issued in Nazi Germany in the early 1940's it was retitled to be a pro Nazi film (i.e., the courtroom scene was used by Hitler for his Nazi Propaganda), when in fact Lang's film was actually the other way around: It was meant to be titled THE MURDERS ARE AMONG US during production and the film was basically an attack of the SA, a group of street thugs that were in the Nazi Party! And hey, also check out the 1943 German produced feature TITANIC, which was supervised by Goebbels himself and is indeed propaganda at it's wildist and most disturbing. But just to let you know, I really don't whitewash any of the German propaganda that was created during Nazi Germany (again, watch TITANIC if you get a chance). If anything, they were about as ruthless as the American propaganda dished out at that time, even more so! But, these particular curios from both sides are interesting in terms of what they were made for and are great case studies of the mentality of the times then.

Oh, also check out MUNCHAUSEN (I think I spelled it correctly), produced at the tail end of World War 2 by Goebbels. It's on DVD, and it's quite interesting for a "Family Oriented" film! And look for the 1943 American propaganda film SAMURAI; I know Something Werid Video has it. Truely cinematic curios that need to be...well, seen.
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raj
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Posts: 2549



« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2004, 11:30:40 AM »

Yeah.  They ran out of gas.  That's one of my favorite Bugs WWII cartoons.
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peter johnson
Guest
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2004, 12:46:41 PM »

I gotta start looking at the dates on these posts --
Man, I know I don't have the patience to go back and look at posts from a year or more ago -- If I see one up here on the board, I always just assume it's a current hot-topic that people are actively discussing.  Anyway, old or new, it doesn't make it any less interesting.
I'm shamefully behind on older films & don't think I've ever seen TITANIC, the German flick.  I do know there's faarrr more stuff out there than I may ever end up seeing.  Which is why I'm thankful for this board, among other reasons!
I never knew about the recutting of M, either, though it does make sense.  I do know that Goebbels made a personal pitch to Lang in Germany in the '30's to take over the German film industry & that Lang said he'd think about it & walked out of the meeting & kept right on walking, leaving the meeting & the country with little more than the clothes on his back.  Harper's magazine ran a great Sorel piece on this event about 10 years ago.
The part of the discussion here that I still find a bit, well, troubling, is the tendency to equate what was being independently created by the American film industry with the Government-sanctioned output of the German film industry of the time.  My earlier point, which I was struggling to make & may have been a bit oblique about, was that I don't agree that you can make a moral equivalence between American & German "propaganda" of the time.  I put the word "propaganda" in quotes here because I think it's a word you have to be careful of.  
One element of propaganda is a willful lie to produce a social result.  Now, you can say that having a talking duck or a talking duck turning into Hitler is a lie, but I think that most people watching would realize that hyperbole is being practiced here.  However, I suppose you'd be correct in saying that the seed would be planted, with humour, that avoiding paying taxes in wartime makes you somehow supporting the Nazis.  It reminds me of Bill Maher's take on American govt. sponsored posters of the day:  "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Laden", a variation on the "When you ride alone, you ride with Hitler" posters encouraging people not to waste gas.
I guess all I'm saying is is that I'm not as comfortable with the idea of there being some sort of great American propaganda push during WW2, like there was in Germany.  Taken side by side, I don't think that anything we did compares with what the Japanese and Germans were producing at the time, nor was our intent the same.  I think saying so creates a sort of moral equivalence between the Allies & Axis that I don't think is justified.  And I suppose I could've just said that at the outset without typing to infinity like this, but what would be the fun in that?
Long-windedly yours
peter johnson/denny crane
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Dunners
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Posts: 750


« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2004, 03:25:45 PM »

"it may be a myth that this anti-german film won an oscar, but it could be true. after all the oscars were started by jews, since the jews then and now run the film industry. this is not news, but many want to disbelieve it."


started by the jews? Run by the jews? You sound like you just came out of a klansmeeting.

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save the world, kill a politician or two.
Chris K.
Guest
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2004, 10:42:22 PM »

peter johnson wrote:

> I'm shamefully behind on older films & don't think I've ever
> seen TITANIC, the German flick.  I do know there's faarrr more
> stuff out there than I may ever end up seeing.  Which is why
> I'm thankful for this board, among other reasons!
> I never knew about the recutting of M, either, though it does
> make sense.  I do know that Goebbels made a personal pitch to
> Lang in Germany in the '30's to take over the German film
> industry & that Lang said he'd think about it & walked out of
> the meeting & kept right on walking, leaving the meeting & the
> country with little more than the clothes on his back.
> Harper's magazine ran a great Sorel piece on this event about
> 10 years ago.

I believe that issue between Lang and Goebbels was during 1938 when Lang made the film THE TESTAMENT OF DR. MABUSE, another example of Lang presenting small hints of Anti-Nazi protest. However, apparently Goebbels saw the film as more Pro-Nazi than Anti-Nazi, to say the least. And it was said at that time that Lang's wife was a possible Nazi supporter and may have been responsible for the arranged meeting between him and Goebbels! Yikes!

As for THE TESTAMENT OF DR. MABUSE, it's been released on a 2-disk DVD from Criterion, and includes the French version that Lang shot back-to-back with the German version. I haven't seen it, but my gut instincts tell me to get it after reading the good reviews of the film. The TITANIC film is also availble on the Kino Video DVD label.

As for the re-cutting of M, the Nazi's basically were trying to use the film to show the Peter Lorre character as their vision of what the Jew is to them: a thieving, untrustworthy criminal! By the time this was done, Lorre also fled from Germany and it was a smart move on his behalf! But like I mentioned earlier, it's quite ironic that the Nazi Party used the film as a Pro-Nazi propaganda piece when in fact the film was really Anti-Nazi in it's presentation.


> The part of the discussion here that I still find a bit, well,
> troubling, is the tendency to equate what was being
> independently created by the American film industry with the
> Government-sanctioned output of the German film industry of the
> time.  

Well, here your point is still taken and I understand what you are saying here, Peter. However, the independently created American film industry at the time of WW2 while not 100% ran by the U.S. Government during the wartime years did indeed have a say in some of the films that were made, some of which were either approved or not approved until changes were instructed to be made. For example, one 1940's Abbot and Costello film (I can't remember the title) had them in the U.S. Navy, and the film originally meant to end with Costello driving a U.S. battleship into another ship, exploding and thus ends the film. Apparently, the film had to be presented to the U.S. Government for approval during wartime; it was not approved. One demand was made: change the ending, and the film will be approved. The ending was changed, removing the explosion finale and changing it to a tacked-on dream sequence. The ending was approved and the film released. Not really as bad as the Government-financed German WW2 films, but just as outrageous. Don't get me wrong, I can see what the U.S. Government was implying of that Abbot and Costello ending scene: they felt the film was literally making fun of the U.S. Navy! But then, maybe the scene was just what Abbot and Costello were presenting, and that was humor with no Anti-War intentions.

But, different times I guess.


> One element of propaganda is a willful lie to produce a social
> result.  Now, you can say that having a talking duck or a
> talking duck turning into Hitler is a lie, but I think that
> most people watching would realize that hyperbole is being
> practiced here.  

And looking back at it, I agree with you that a hyperbole is being practiced in that particular subject. As a whole, when I first saw that scene, I did laugh. I mean it was indeed funny and looking at it today is no more serious than it may have been back in the day it was first shown.


> However, I suppose you'd be correct in saying
> that the seed would be planted, with humour, that avoiding
> paying taxes in wartime makes you somehow supporting the Nazis.
> It reminds me of Bill Maher's take on American govt. sponsored
> posters of the day:  "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin
> Laden", a variation on the "When you ride alone, you ride with
> Hitler" posters encouraging people not to waste gas.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I believe this is what I was trying to say when this post first was started. I mean really, so you don't pay taxes you are supporting Hitler? Again, how far-fetched can it get? And because of that, it comes across as sheer threatening paranoia rather than a meaningful point. Today, it's pretty damn silly and gets a boatload of laughs from me because of it's sheer ridiculousness! And that Bill Maher quote makes it a bit more clear, if you ask me.


> I guess all I'm saying is is that I'm not as comfortable with
> the idea of there being some sort of great American propaganda
> push during WW2, like there was in Germany.  Taken side by
> side, I don't think that anything we did compares with what the
> Japanese and Germans were producing at the time, nor was our
> intent the same.  

I don't know. I mean, take a good long look at Frank Capra's documentary series WHY WE FIGHT: the Narrator tries to explain that we need to take pitty on the German, Japanese, and Italian people who are being treated harshly by their leaders, but at the same time the Narrator also says that if you see a German, Japanese, or an Italian walking down your streets, start getting suspicious and have your weapon in hand! Okay, it's kinda hard to look at this with a straight face and doesn't make a whole lot of sense! The inetnt may not be the same as that of the German or Japanese propaganda films, but then what could you classify this as? Possibly bad pandering of peoples emotions? Plus Capra uses Religious quotes from the Bible (a typical element that can ususaly be found in a Capra film, by the way) to "justify" the war. And yet, one would seem to realize that the Bible is, to an extent or degree depending on how you look at it, very Anti-War when observed carefully and comes across as more shameful than spirtual. And to sum it up, Capra's documentary is approved by the U.S. Government in the very first opening scene. On a technical level, they are well-done in their presentations, but that's about it.

But you know, in retrospect these old WW2 films and cartoons are worth viewing to see how these items were used and whatnot. They are interesting and worth seeing. And some of these WW2 cartoons and films are so outrageous, their almost damn surreal! If you get a chance, catch the Bugs Bunny short BUGS BUNNY NIPS THE NIPS: seriously, talk about surreal and downright blatant. It's terrible, but it is entertaining in a bad movie sort of way (and for animation buffs, it's quite well done)!

I understand the era and time they were made in, so I get it. And I am quite disappointed that Warner Bros. refuses to release some of their old WW2 propoganda cartoons, they don't realize how valuable they are in terms of historical value. I'd really like to see THE DUCKTATORS, which has Daffy Duck as Mussolini, Hitler, and Hirihoto. Now that would be a sight!
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Chris
Guest
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2004, 06:07:21 PM »

Rarely seen? Maybe on TV, but I found the Superman "Japoteurs" episode (plus a bunch of other Supermen eps) on DVD at WalMart for $1.00.
They also have Betty Boop episodes on DVD (several on one disc for a $1.00)including the one where the animal abuser gets the living crap beat out of him... chrisBoyScoutKevin wrote:

> To get back to what Neville said. The Superman cartoons were
> made by pioneer animator Max Fleischer, who was indeed the
> father of director Richard Fleischer. There was also another
> one called "Japoteurs," which is rarely seen today. Maybe
> because it is so blatantly propagandistic. ,  The whole series
> is quite good and worth checking out (IMHO) As a side note, the
> voice of Superman was provided by Bud Collyer, who was the host
> of the long running game show, "To Tell the Truth."
>
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Flangepart
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Karma: 653
Posts: 9477



« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2004, 02:56:11 PM »

Nice to know i'm not the only Spike Jones fan in the group.
V. Boy, ever hear the version of "Der Furer's face" when the  "Birdaphone", that made the rasberry sound, broke at the last note? Priceless.

Propaganda. Just when does an expression of a point of view officialy become Propaganda? Is it in how its expressed? Or is it the idea its self? Just curious, realy.

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"Aggressivlly eccentric, and proud of it!"
Derf
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2004, 03:18:33 PM »

Flangepart wrote:

> Propaganda. Just when does an expression of a point of view
> officialy become Propaganda? Is it in how its expressed? Or is
> it the idea its self? Just curious, realy.
>
Haven't you figured this one out yet? When you see the opinion expressed and you disagree with it, you say, "What a load of propaganda!" When you agree with the opinion being expressed, you say, "It's about time someone showed the truth!"

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Vermin Boy
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2004, 08:51:29 PM »

Heh, don't think I've heard that version-- Any idea where I can find it?

In other news, my friend recently moved into an apartment across from the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and I just recently noticed that the mural outside of it-- featuring greats like Calloway and Ellington-- includes a reproduction of a Spike Jones playbill. Made my day. :)

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-Vermin Boy

My site: The Vermin Cave
My band: The Demons of Stupidity
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peter johnson
Guest
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2004, 09:07:03 PM »

I heard that broken Birdophone version yearrrsss ago in college, and always thought I could find it on a compilation, but none of the ones I've heard since have it!!  I suppose you could find it through a Spike Jones site -- collectors pass this sort of stuff around.
I haven't been able to get on the website here for weeks, so missed out on all this stuff -- thankyou, Chirs K., for your clear commentary.  I do see what you mean, re. Capra, the WHY WE FIGHT series.  Yes, the US Gov. did ask that some films be made, and the "Capra-corn"-ucopia did churn out these barely watchable things -- I own them all, of course, but can't watch but a little at a time.  I especially love the "heroic Russians" one.  I can see how the M thing would work with very little tweaking indeed.
Has nobody else had trouble getting on the Badmovies site?  There's even a thread about how nobody can get it to come up over at Jabootu.
peter johnson/denny crane
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Flangepart
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2004, 04:53:33 PM »

I heard the "Broken Birdaphone" on Dr. Demento. It was a live performance.
Maby a message to the Doc's website could get some info. If you can hear the show, do a request!

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"Aggressivlly eccentric, and proud of it!"
The Ghoul
Guest
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2004, 01:56:50 PM »

Didn't see this mentioned, but I fondly recall Popeye had some very in your face anti-axis WWII carttoons. Many were shown on TV when I was a kid but were quickly pulled or scenes deleted. I remember one scene where Popeye beats a Japanese sailor in a sub with Popeye yelling ..."AH soooo SORRY!" then punching the Japanese sailor in his coke bottle thick glasses with buck teeth. Plenty of goose stepping Nazies for Popeye to beat up with help from the weird little buddy named The Jeep. Nope, Disney or WB weren't the only ones way into showing us the American Way.
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