A message to the grammar Nazi's

[ulthar]

I think the main point is one of attitude.  Mixing up "your" with "you're" or "their" with "they're" can be forgiven, or even ignored by some.

But, it bothers some, and they wish to point it out.  It is not to berate or offend or brow-beat the poster making the error.  I think (in most instances, anyway) the intention is to point out the error in the hopes that the error making poster will correct their usage in the future.

I (and others) fall into a third category.  It does bother me, but I don't tend to point it out.   What I do mind more than the errors themselves is that AFTER someone points out the difference between "your" and "you're" that others say 'ah, that doesn't matter, your just being picky.'

How we take criticism says as much about us as how we look, write, speak and act.  We either use that criticism (whether kindly or maliciously given) to better ourselves or we rebel against it.  Which of these choices leads to personal growth?

There is a correct and an incorrect way to write/speak.  Errors are one thing, but willful misuse AFTER being corrected is, in my opinion, an ugly degradation of our language.  And, again, it speaks volumes to one's character.

Let me give another example of this exact same thing.  On a Christian bbs a few months ago, the issue of illegally downloading music became a topic.  One person, a proclaimed Christian, admitted that they KNEW it was wrong and that it was hurting the artists and other people in the recording industry, but they would continue to do it anyway because they did not want to spend $15 for a CD.  Now I ask: what is your opinion of that person claiming to be a Christian??

[trekgeezer]

I always try my best and proof read before I post  something. I'm really bad about leaving out letters from common words because I'm trying to type too fast.  I wouldn't  even try to correct  someones grammar, because I'm ususally not too sure of my own.

I can see getting bent out of shape about  someone making a big point out of correcting your spelling or grammar and not paying attention to the meaning of what you posted. This is a message board not an English class.

[AndyC]

trek_geezer wrote:

> This is a message board not an English class.

I would think a message board would be an equally appropriate place for good communication.

I think someone has already mentioned that the purpose of English class is to give us language skills to use in day-to-day life. It is a means to an end, not an end in itself. The message board is one place where we can apply what we have learned.

I just can't accept the idea that spelling and grammar are only important when you're being graded on them specifically. It reminds me of some of my other classes in high school. Whenever we'd have a test in science, history or some other subject, somebody would inevitably ask if spelling counts, as though proper English could be ignored just because the test happened to be in another subject. The typical teacher's response: "Spelling always counts."

Words to live by. Or is it words by which to live?

Really, if we are all of the opinion that people should focus on what we have to say in our posts, and not on our spelling, it just makes sense that we try our best not to distract them with errors.

[ulthar]

AndyC wrote:

>
> Really, if we are all of the opinion that people should focus
> on what we have to say in our posts, and not on our spelling,
> it just makes sense that we try our best not to distract them
> with errors.
>

Very good point.  I tend to either { (a) completely quit reading, (b) not take the poster's comments very seriously or (c) both a and b} a post with a lot of errors.

In other words, if you want others to value your opinions, give the reader the respect of at least TRYING to write correctly.  If you place a low value on your communication skills, others will also.

Sorry if that's not what some want to hear, but that is reality.

[AndyC]

ulthar wrote:
> If you place a low value on your communication skills, others
> will also.

Exactly. If you really feel that you have something important to say, isn't it worth a little effort to say it well?

The impression I get from Nick is that good spelling and grammar are for the benefit of others. That is true, but we also owe it to ourselves to speak and write clearly. I believe someone has already drawn an analogy to personal hygeine.

Expecting others to overlook a shortcoming is very much like saying that it is too difficult to improve. It's admitting defeat. It shows a lack of self respect. Likewise, just ignoring it shows a lack of respect on the part of others. Really, while criticism is often taken as something that calls attention to our faults, it can also be regarded as a show of faith that we can do better.

To give an example, there is a program at our church that provides food and shelter for the homeless in winter. Some of the people involved are so concerned with making everyone feel comfortable and welcome, that they are reluctant to set boundaries and enforce rules. To me, that shows a lack of respect. If we don't believe someone can be expected not to p**s against a wall, then we don't consider him to be much more than an animal. By correcting mistakes (nicely and constructively), we show respect, and by doing things properly, we show self respect.

What self-respecting person would say "my English is terrible, and there is no way I'm ever going to improve it, so you'd better just pretend it's OK?" That seems to be what Nick has told us.

I don't think I could handle knowing that people were making allowances for me. I would much prefer polite criticism, because it shows that people believe I can do better.



Post Edited (12-16-03 21:25)

[Cullen]

My belief is that if I go around pointing out your spelling/grammarical/factual errors, then you are completely justified in going around pointing out mine.  Fair is as fair does, after all.

Which is why I try to be polite and good natured.

[ulthar]

Cullen wrote:

> My belief is that if I go around pointing out your
> spelling/grammarical/factual errors, then you are completely
> justified in going around pointing out mine.  Fair is as fair
> does, after all.
>
> Which is why I try to be polite and good natured.
>

That's part of the point.  If I am consistently spelling a particular word incorrectly or inappropriately using an apostrophe or whatever, I WANT someone to point it out to me.  Note that I'm not talking about every little typo that appears - only consistent errors.

I have emailed several webmasters pointing out spelling errors on their web sites because I thought they would want to know.  In each case, I was polite.  In each case, they were so appreciative that the error was caught.

[Colt M1991A1]

Other people here have said it considerably better than I ever could... just because you're not in school anymore, doesn't mean the correct usage of English doesn't matter anymore.

I am a bit of a Nazi regarding some things in English- anyone who uses "U" or "R" instead of "YOU" or "ARE" should be shot without trial, IMO (ditto anyone who communicates in l33t sp43k...)

The "It's/Its" thing really doesn't bother me any more. I used to point it out to people in an effort o help them, but I got bombarded with posts along the lines of "OMG u r so f*kn g4y!!!!1111" that I just gave up in the end.

"Your/You're" does bother me. They're different words representing different concepts entirely, yet people still get them very mixed up.

In many ways, I feel that saying "I'm bad at communicating in the language of the country I live in, so you'll all have to deal with it" is akin to saying "Well, I'm a really bad driver, but that's your problem since it doesn't bother me."

Or, to put it another way, would you buy a Newspaper or a book full of l33t sp34k, spelling mistakes, TXT abbreviations, and awful grammar? I doubt it very much.

Having said all that, I'm not going to hold it against someone I know, only society in general...

[trekgeezer]

I can remember when I was an obnoxious young man and constantly corrected people on just about everything. Then I grew up.

Sometimes people on a message board are in a hurry or maybe just don't type so well. Give them the benefit of the doubt. I know a lot of very bright people who can't  spell  worth anything.  This does not invalidate the fact that they have high intelligence, nor does it mean that their opinions are worthless because they have poor sentence structure.  It just means that  they aren't  wired for writing.  

I often see posts that irritate me because of bad spelling, incomprehensible sentences, or downright stupid opinions.  I've just curbed my natural tendencies to straighten people out , at least until they really p**s me off.

I come here for the enjoyment of seeing other peoples opinions on something I enjoy, movies.  I really could care less what the posts look like as long as I can understand the point the person is trying to make.

[AndyC]

trek_geezer wrote:

> they aren't  wired for writing.  

That's just making excuses. Any smart person can learn to write if they care enough to do it, and having errors corrected is a good way to learn.

Nobody here is talking about constant nitpicking of typos or minor slipups, or suggesting that everything needs to be written formally. However, if someone is consistently making a mistake, it is to his own benefit that someone else respectfully points it out.

The difference is whether it's done to deride, tease or otherwise discredit a poster, or simply to offer some help. The latter is best done off the board, in a private email. Even so, I find that when it's done with malice (not by me), it's often because someone was asking for it by being just a little too arrogant. I think it's fair to say that if you hold yourself up as smarter than others, your writing should be impeccable.

[Bernie]

AndyC has said everything I would've said (and probably better) so I'll just add a few random tidbits for whatever they're worth:

To repeat:  This is not about the occasional misspelled word or missing capital letter.  We all do that.  All of us.  Not a big deal.

This is about written communication -- done in the clearest and most efficient way possible.  Rules of grammar are not medieval torture devices created by 2nd-grade teachers to ruin the lives of happy-go-lucky kids (it just seems like that in old Jean Shepherd stories).  They promote clarity of expression, which, after all, is what we're all going for, isn't it?

I rarely make age assumptions (because I'm never right); but if I see a post that's run-on and confusing, I just won't read it;  really I can't -- because I do most of my reading & posting in off moments at work and I just don't have the time -- or the interest -- to sit and unravel someone else's mess.  It's not my job (as someone else said just above).

Really what it comes down to is this:  if we're not worth your taking the time to clean up and proof your post, why are you worth us taking the time to figure it out?

(And of course these are all rhetorical "yous" -- it's not about wyckednick or any other individual here.)

One last take on the subject -- my wife, one of the smartest people I know, is extremely dyslexic -- to the point where reading (which she loves to do) causes headaches from the effort.  Needless to say, when she writes her first drafts are, shall we say, extremely fanciful -- but she works her butt off to make it right -- because she doesn't want anyone mistaking an organic problem for stupidity or illiteracy.  

I'm just saying -- if she can make the effort when she's got all that against her, it's little enough for the rest of us to do.

[kriegerg69]

1. Lack of punctuation.....no periods, commas, etc........makes understanding of WHAT someone is trying to say extremely difficult, and a non-punctuated message just comes across as rambling.

2. EXCESSIVE text-messaging throughout an entire post.....It's also VERY diffcult to read and to try and understand what the HELL someone is saying when you have to stop every other word to figure out what the f**k they're saying. It slows down trying to read something......and also comes across (to me, IMHO) as simply idiocy and uneducatedness.

[Bernie]

"Uneducatedness"

If that's not a word, it should be.  Love it!

Hee.

[wickednick]

It started out innocently enough, Wyckednick just wanted people to stop being so critical over other peoples grammar, so a post was created to address this issue.But soon it started growing and growing at a horrifying rate.Fed by the rambling of dozens of posters it became bigger and more powerful.If not stoped it will become the most terrifying thing on the internet, consuming all other posts until there is nothing left.
Yes, YES MY BEAST GO OUT AND DESTROY. LET THERE BE NOTHING LEFT!MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Bernie]

Ya just never know what'll catch people's fancies.