LOTR/new/spoilers/p**sed!!

[peter johnson]

Hello folks --
I just saw the new Jackson/Rings thing, and I'm a bit peeved.
Oh, yes, I do, in fact, acknowledge and revere what it is he got right in the New One, BUT!! --
I miss the Scouring of the Shire . . . there is no way to diminish this . . .
Tolkein himself said that the entire body of this work was to lead up to this: The singular event  of the element of Evil Large writ small.
Tolkein said that without the Scouring of the Shire, the story before means not a thing.
Jackson misses the boat on the final thrust to the goal . . ..
What a damned shame . . .  what a horrid pity  . .
Yes, the Ouliphants were wonderful/Yes, the exits were grand . . . Without Christopher Lee and a correct Afterword, the Actual Lord of the Rings is yet to come . . . .
regretfully
peter johnson

[jmc]

Moviewise, the Scouring just wouldn't make sense.  I just can't see them adding another half hour for a sequence that has little relation to the main story of the film, especially when it's a film that is already over three hours long.   This is one of those times where it's unrealistic to criticize Jackson because it's a sequence that wouldn't have worked with the rest of the film.  It's like Tom Bombadil in the first film.

They should have had Saruman's story finished up at the end of the second film--but I'm sure if they'd done that people would have complained about something else.  I really think no one could do a better job than what has been done here.  
Including every single bit of the books would result in a narrative mess and would have been a box office flop.  And even then, the purists probably would have complained about the Balrog having wings or the size of the Oliphaunts.

That being said, I didn't like Frodo sending Sam away, and didn't like how Denethor died.  But those are my only real complaints.  I'll probably see this again next week.

[Darkautumn]

Yeah, I would have liked to see the Scouring, too, but I had already heard that that wasn't going to be in the theatrical cut, along with all of Saruman's scenes. However, Saruman will definitely be in the "Extended Version" so hopefully they'll include the final shining moment of Hobbitdom, along with some other things that need fleshing out (like Eowyn and Faramir; the way the movie is now, she goes from mooning over Aragorn as he rides off down the Passages of the Dead, and then at the end she's all happy with Faramir-they need to at least touch on some of the stuff that went on in the "Houses of the Healing" section of the book.)

[Cullen]

While I liked the Scouring section of LOTR, there was no way it would have worked in movie form.  You'd have to cut back somewhere else.

Now, if someone was to make a miniseries...  Then a definitive visual version of the novel could be made.  Until then, the Extended DVDs are the best we have, and we're darn lucky to have that.

[jmc]

I read that there were never any plans to include The Scouring of the Shire.

But I have heard a lot of the Houses of Healing will be in the extended cut.

[trekgeezer]

There is some news about  the extended version at  Ain't it Cool News. Don't look if you don't like spoilers.  I hope the stuff about  New Line faming out the FX is false.

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=16689

[Velvet Brotha]

What a bunch of cock mongers!!! I can't believe that duche bag did that! I'm a huge Tolkein fan and I think he deserves a grand shoeing to the nuts for that one!

[daveblackeye15]

*Spoilers*
I haven't seen it yet (the movie), but I LOVE the Scouring of the Shire chapter . 1) It helped tie up some lose ends. 2) After it was all over it felt like Middle Earth was at last at peace because we knew that Saruman was gone. 3) It's messages are  "Fight for what you belive in." and also because the elves and wizard and dwarves were leaving that only left Hobbits and Humans in middle earth, so the Hobbits had to settle this matter themselves. And they did a great job of that. But I can understand why they had to leave it out of the movie , a shame but sadly maybe it was for the best. Now why did Jackson have a huge army of Elves come and aid the small army of Rohan for the battle of Helms Deep? The Rohan army fighting the huge Orc/Human army in the book is the same message as the one in Scouring of the Shire. "Don't relie on others to fight your battles" now THAT (the huge elf army that came out of no where) could have been left out of the movie.

[Fearless_Freep]

The Rohan army fighting the huge Orc/Human army in the book is the same message as the one in Scouring of the Shire. "Don't relie on others to fight your battles"

Keep in mind that Gandalf came to the rescue with some 'friends'.  I think  PJ put the elves in because the description in the book is fairly indistinct and it would be hard to figure out what was going, much less portray it

PJ did a lot of things where he *showed* what was only really described indirectly; the fight at the falls, Shelob...  The elves were a way to show something directly that was only described obliquely in the book

What I took from the Scouring of the Shire was that "you can't go home again because you're not the same when you get there"  While Sam could, Frodo had changed too much.  Would have been nice to see Merry and Pippin in their glory but, I thought the ending did a decent job of summing up the passing of the guard from elves to men and hobbits and the ending of the age and a lot of what seemed to be really behind the action.

[peter johnson]

Well, I do appreciate the comments here & they are helping me see from another perspective, but I must take some issue with some assertions.
For one thing, I don't really get the assertion that filming The Scouring would have somehow "not worked" or not been "cinematic"  or taken a very long time, or whatever.  Certainly it could've been filmed in a 10 or 20 minute version that would not have added greatly to the length of the film.  Why it is necessary is the reason Tolkien saw it as necessary:  Evil Grand has been defeated/Evil en minature persists.  To draw the analogy larger, just because Hitler or Stalin or Hussein or Sauron is defeated does not mean that we need not be on our guard for corrupt local politicians & the persistence of wickedness.
Another grand theme of The Scouring is the inability of words to convey the reality of what has been gone through.  In the books the Hobbit villagers come to revere Merry and Pippin over Frodo because they are taller & wear the uniforms of the military.  Nobody knows that Frodo deserves most of the praise & reverence due to what he did.  This could've been filmed very easily!  A few less dreamy-eyed "goodbye Tinman!" sequences & a grand little battle on a small scale to contrast the hugeness of all we've seen before.  I think it would've been wonderful to show the scene where Wormtongue continues to follow the abusive Saruman until he snaps, because those who've been abused think they deserve nothing better & do not believe they can be rescued from evil.
I will also go and see it again  and see the first 2 again as well several more times, as this is a great work of art, no question.  
Still, I give voice to what I feel was a grevious error of judgement on Mr. Jackson's part.  I cannot fault his ability or his execution.  I question only the choices he made in his vision.
peter johnson

[Fearless_Freep]

To adequately address the themes you mention would have been significantly  longer than 10 or 20 minutes. Kept that short it would've just felt tacked on and a bit silly.  To integrate well with the rest of the movie and properly give credit to the ideals  of Big Evil and Little Evil and Grima finally cracking and Merry and Pippin would've required a lot more than just 10 to 20 minutes.  Like trying to do the whole story as a two hour movie like the execs wanted in the first place, if you can't do it right, better to not do it.

I personally really liked that part of the book, as well as when they all left..  While I would've loved to see it filmed on balance of everything else over the duration of the three movies, I'm not going to complain

[Cullen]

Well, at least we're not arguing the importance of Tom Bombadil...

[daveblackeye15]

I likedTom bombadil, and the Barrow Wrights, that part added another layer of mythology (this is why I like the first book slightly more than the other two, it features more mythology of middle earth in it and i'm a mythology nut.) and if they had included Bombadil then Lord of the Rings would have had one more chick in the movie (I'm talking about that goddess of the river, I'd look up the name but I'm too lazy). I can understand though why PJ left out Bombadil and Farmer Maggot so I'm cool with  it.

[daveblackeye15]

Gah! Forgot about this:

Fearless Freep said: "Keep in mind that Gandalf came to the rescue with some 'friends'. I think PJ put the elves in because the description in the book is fairly indistinct and it would be hard to figure out what was going, much less portray it"

True True, I did keep this in mind, but by then the Rohan warriors had done most of the fighting and the battle was almost over, remeber the Orcs were cowering because of the Knights horse assualt that spread the Orcs and Evil Humans all over the place. Now in PJ's movie, most of the Rohan warriors are lost in that add in battle with the Wargs (MY GOD! What was Jackson thinking when he "Okayed" the design of the Wargs, they look like Hyenas for God's sake. Wargs are freaking big wolfs not god damn big hyenas!!!!!) So the farmers have to arm up and fight with the remaining knights when du du dadaa! An army of elves come marching out of no-where ready for battle. This add in makes the Helms Deep defense like 90% elf and 10% human. Helms Deep was about Rohans defending there home land against Saruman's army so I don't see much point in adding this elven army. In other words when Gandalfs came with the reinforments they pretty much cleaned up the remaining Orcs. Now don't get me wrong Helms Deep was a kick ass battle in book form or movie form.