OT:Rules For a GunFight

[Fearless Freep]

Saw these in a Martial Arts forum and knew some people here like guns so..
(It's OT because it's semi-serious and not based on movie logic)
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Rules for a Gunfight

    * Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
    * Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
    * Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
    * If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
    * If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
    * In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
    * Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
    * Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
    * Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
    * The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
    * Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
    * Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

[Menard]

I always liked Wild Bill's take on gunfighting: Aim, before you shoot.

[ulthar]

Hehe.  Some of these actually sound like what they teach at the SC Criminal Justice Academy.

I was in a self defense class there a few years ago, and one ofthe instructors was all gung-ho on 'proper technique.' If you did not grab a wrist in just the right place, well, you were doing "it" wrong.

The main instructor was a SERIOUS martial artist-the kind who has won fights (real ones).  He listened to this other guy for a while, and near the last day of the class, he quietly stood up and asked if he could have the class's attention.  He spoke in a very matter of fact tone:  "do what you have to do to win; forget technique."

Another instructor, one who gave the lectures on the 'psychology of policing,' talked about what it was like to kill someone.  He knew, because he had done so three times (once off duty when he happened into a robbery on his day off).  Many in the class thought he was a psycho, the way he talked about his encounters were not politically correct I guess, but I tried to buddy up with and learn more.  The dude was right on, in my book.  I was taught from a very early age: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot, don't shoot someone you don't intend to kill, and don't miss.

And finally, I've had the privilege of knowing an IPSC Master, another individual who had been in multiple real-life gunfights.  His advice?  Hit what you are shooting at; misses don't count.  To emphasize this point with some people I was doing training with a few years ago, I devised a target scoring system in which one is penalized for misses; you could get a negative score.  The 'pass/fail' rates were very, very different when compared to conventional scoring used in Law Enforcement qualifications.  When you think about it, it is kinda scarey that there is no penalty for missing (and possibly hitting a bystander).

[ulthar]

Yes, because it does little good to aim AFTER you shoot....

;)

[Menard]

Actually, that is the point. Wild Bill did not always get off the first shot because he took the time to aim. His opponents did not and they lost. The only person who got the draw on Wild Bill did it from behind while he was playing cards. The movie 'Wild Bill' did an interesting, although ficticious, take on how Wild Bill ended up with his back to the door; he had a habit of not sitting with his back to a door. And since I brought up the movie, it has an excellent performance by Jeff Bridges as Wild Bill, but is unfortunately marred by a script which is ahistorical.


A magazine article, I believe from 'Wild West' magazine, ranked the top ten gunfighters from the old west and Wild Bill came in second to John Wesley Hardin's first place ranking even though they both had the most kills at ten each. Their deciding criteria was interesting. The main distinction was that Wild Bill was not a psychopathic killer; Hardin was.

[ulthar]

I read an article years ago on gunfighting tactics, and iirc, Wild Bill was used as the model.  Wasn't he the one that started the trend of shooting out his ammo daily, achieving two things:

(1) constant practice - with shooting, a little practice often is better for skills than a lot at one time with long spells between.  Plus, you practice with the ammo you'd really use.

(2) fresh ammo - probably more important then than now, but it still is important from the standpoint of attention to and 'intimacy' with your equipment.  When I was in LE, we used to carry the same ammo all the time; practice was with different ammo, then we'd reload with the other.  I THINK about once per year, we'd fire off the 'duty' ammo, and reload with fresh.

The aiming you mention was part of the article, too.  There was more; it was very interesting.  I've read little on that period of American history - read mostly about Revolutionary, Civil and Vietnam Wars.

[Menard]

I am not too certain about firing off the ammo daily, but he was a stickler for regular practice. Wild Bill probably matches more closely, if not the inspiration for, the gunfighter image. He was a scout, marshall, gambler, and gunfighter of tall stature in size.

He was quite strategic in his planning. This is quite evidenced by a gunfight he was in, I believe in Kansas, where he preferred to keep his distance. Knowing that his opponent would probably panic fire, he stood little chance of getting hit while at the same time giving himself time to aim; and he was deadly accurate.

Additionally, he liked to keep his equipment in working order (guns that is; rumors suggest that Calamity Jane made certain his other equipment was in working order, but there is little if any proof to that). He also was willing to incorporate newer innovations and was one of the early gunfighters to adopt cartridge ammo for its reported better accuracy and naturally faster reloads.

His physical prowess was just as well known as his skills with a gun as many witnesses attested to him fighting a bear with just a knife. He was severely injured, but then the bear was dead.

The distinction that the magazine made between Hardin and Wild Bill is spurious as the main distiction that would rank Wild Bill as the greatest gunfighter in the West is that, unlike Hardin, Wild Bill was not a coward who shot people in the back. Hardin was simply a murderer, Wild Bill was a gunfighter.


Here is a link to a bio about Wild Bill.


Wild Bill

[JohnL]

>Rules for a Gunfight

My rules;

1. Don't get shot.
2. Make the other guy(s) break rule #1.

>2) fresh ammo - probably more important then than now

A few years ago, my father took his .45 to a range for a little practice. He'd had the same ammo in the gun for at least a year. The first shot he fired seemed to be a dud and the next round didn't chamber properly. Turns out that the first one had just pushed the bullet out of the shell  and lodged it in the barrel. If it had gone a little further into the barrel so that the next round chambered properly and THAT was round was good, it could have blown up in his face.

[odinn7]

I have a 1944 Turkish Mauser in 8mm and recently bought surplus 8mm rounds (from the 40's) and haven't had any problems with this old stuff. It may not be as accurate as modern ammo but it still shoots pretty well with no misfires or any problems (other than it's dirty as all hell since it's corrosive powder).
JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45 as ammo doesn't go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it may have been a bad batch to start with. Perhaps he had it laying around longer than he thought?  I do like your 2 rules for a gunfight, simple and concise.
Even though ammo doesn't go bad from sitting around for a few years, I still replace my home defense ammo every 2 years just so I can be sure. Don't want to need to use it and find out that there's something wrong.

[ulthar]

odinn7 wrote:

> JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45
> as ammo doesn't go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it
> may have been a bad batch to start with. Perhaps he had it
> laying around longer than he thought?  I do like your 2 rules
> for a gunfight, simple and concise.
>

Actually, what it sounds like to me is a load without any powder (or powder that did not initiate).  The primer alone has just enough ummff to unseat the bullet.  There are three main types of misfires, and this is one of them (either missing or uninitiated powder).

While it is possible for a blocked barrel to cause a catastrophic failure in a pistol (as opposed to a revolver), it is a bit less likely.  A pistol is not as closed a system as a revolver; the recoil drops the barrel assembly out of battery and 'unseals' the entire works.  What would likely have happened is a huge get vent out the side of the weapon, which, of couse, may have still caused serious injury.  Just my opinion, ymmv.

[JohnL]

>JohnL, there must be more to the story about your fathers .45 as ammo doesn't
>go bad within a year unless it's been wet or it may have been a bad batch to
>start with. Perhaps he had it laying around longer than he thought?

Maybe. All he mentioned at the time was that it had been sitting around for quite a while. Maybe it was just a bad cartridge.

>I do like your 2 rules for a gunfight, simple and concise.

Thanks. :)

>Actually, what it sounds like to me is a load without any powder (or powder that
>did not initiate). The primer alone has just enough ummff to unseat the bullet.
>There are three main types of misfires, and this is one of them (either missing or
>uninitiated powder).

I don't think he ever figured out exactly what caused it.

>While it is possible for a blocked barrel to cause a catastrophic failure in a pistol
>(as opposed to a revolver), it is a bit less likely. A pistol is not as closed a
>system as a revolver; the recoil drops the barrel assembly out of battery
>and 'unseals' the entire works. What would likely have happened is a huge get
>vent out the side of the weapon, which, of couse, may have still caused serious
>injury. Just my opinion, ymmv.

You're probably right. I'm not exactly an expert on firearms, I just know that blocked barrels have been responsible for guns exploding.

[ulthar]

JohnL wrote:

>
>  I just know that blocked barrels have been responsible for guns
> exploding.

Yep.  I've seen it in revolvers, and heard of it in long guns.  Just don't know if I have ever heard of it specifically in a semiauto pistol.

[Scott]

Good topic, not much to add here, but as you know I like my Spaghetti Westerns. Here is a list of some fun titles.

Any Gun Can Play
A Bullitt for the General
The Great Silence
Django, If You Live Shoot
Companeros
Keoma
Shoot Gringo Shoot
Fist Full of Lead (a.k.a. Get your Coffins Ready, Sartana is Coming)
Texas, Adios
Four of the Apocalypes
A Minute to Pray, A Second to Die
Sabata
Django Prepare a Coffin
Bandidos
Los Amigos
A Reason to Live, A Reason to Die
Adios Sabata
Have a Good Funeral, Sartana Will Pay
Boot Hill
The Smell of Onion
Cut-Throats Nine
A Bullit for Sandoval
Django Strikes Again
Django The Bastard
Blood for a Silver Dollar
Winnetou - Last of the Renegades
Winnetou - The Desperado Trail
Blood and Guns
Johnny Oro
Jonathan of the Bears
The Stranger and the Gunfighter
Revenge of a Gunfighter
Blood at Sundown
Today It's Me
Massacre Time
Cemetary Without Crosses
The Price of Death
Life is Tough, eh Providence
Viva Django
The Five Man Army
Trinity is Back
Day of Anger
Ballad of Django
Old Shatterhand
Pistol for Ringo
The Return of Ringo
Sartana in Death Valley
If You Meet Sartana, Pray for Your Death
Seven Winchesters for a Massacre
The Big and the Bad
I'll Dig Your Grave
Drop Them or I'll Shoot
God Forgives......I Don't

[trekgeezer]

I wonder who originally wrote these.  They are posted all over the net.  Just wondering if anyone had a clue. It's probably one of those things that has been around so long that no one remembers who came up with it.

[BoyScoutKevin]

Thanks for the list, Fearless.

"Watch the hands." What I have heard, and I don't how true this is, because I never knew any, but it does make some sense, is that  the Old West gunfighters watched the shoulders of their opponent, because the first part of the body that is going to move, when a man goes for their gun, is the shoulders.