OT: The Situation In New Orleans

[Ash]

Man....what a tragedy.

Many thoughts run through my mind when I see looters and thugs running amok on TV.
The Federal Government has been somewhat slow to respond.   But I can understand that.
You can't snap your fingers and expect relief & aid to be there instantly.  It takes time.
And I DO understand to a point why some folks down in Nawleans resorted to looting.  If I were in their position....well....I might do it too...It all would depend on my immediate situation and whether I had a family or not.  It would all depend on how bad the situation was and how long I thought it would take for things to go back to normal.

Imagine you haven't eaten in two or three days.

Truthfully, I can't tell you that I wouldn't go into a drenched & destroyed grocery store, literally wading in ass deep water to take a few things to eat if I hadn't eaten in several days and chaos was literally unfolding around me.
Maybe snatch a can opener from the utility aisle and pry open a can of Dinty Moore beef stew.
Even the thought of one of those big Hershey chocolate bars would be a good motivator to just quietly slip inside.
"Whose it gonna hurt if I just take a few small things to eat?" you and I might be thinking if we were in that position.

WHY THEY DO IT

All of this has made me envision an even bigger scenario...and pay attention here...

What if Al Qaida or some other extremist group detonated a nuclear device in one of our major cities?

Hurricane Katrina would be child's play compared to that.
A lot of flood water is a helluva lot better than radioactive fallout!
This hurricane is a learning experience that will hopefully make us tougher as a united nation.
(don't get me wrong, I deplore the loss of life and am sympathetic)
Regardless, it'll make us all stronger and more apt to absorb and deal with the even worse inevitable chaos that will ensue when a nuclear bomb is set off here on our soil.  
And it will probably happen....it's only a matter of time.

I hope our government will be quicker on the draw if/when total nuclear destruction of a major US city occurs..
It appears that we are not as strong and fast as we think we are.  
The Katrina disaster proves that.
Based on my observations of the anarchy in New Orleans, we've got a long f**kin' way to go.

This natural disaster is something we should pay close attenton to.



Post Edited (09-03-05 15:14)

[trekgeezer]

This is one of those incidents that either brings out the best or the worst in people. This has just downright overwhelmed everyone involved.

I don't care how well you plan for something if human beings are involved there is always going to be unforeseen stuff happening.

I could really go on a rant about the way the reporters keep badgering the s**t out of the FEMA people. This is a situation that has never presented itself in this country and it;'s trying everyone. Aid is not going to be instantaneous and sorry but as much as those people are suffering, b***hing about who's fault it is is not getting the job done. I wish the press would shut up and put up.

Communications are down everywhere, so why aren't those reporters using their resources to help point the people delivering  the aid to the people that need it instead of trying make someone look bad politically?

It also doesn't help that you have people shooting at the people who are trying to evacuate the victims. On CNN they were saying a lot of the cops have actually deserted.

This is something I've been thinking about. You got people looting TV's and all kinds of electronics, well where the hell are they taking that stuff? Do they think they're going to sell it? I even heard that some of the cops were in on the action. I read where a cop broke open the DVD case at a Wal Mart, so the looters wouldn't cut their hands stealing the DVDs.

I tell you, it's just about too much to comprehend. I can totally understand the confusion on everyones part. It makes my head hurt, literally.

[Mr_Vindictive]

It's going to be hard for me to post a reply without getting political, but I will try my best.



What happened in New Orleans is without a doubt one of the worst results of a hurricane in years.  I'm pretty sure that Katrina has actually done more damage than Hugo did back in the early 90s.

It's terrible watching the various citizens having to round up the dead bodies out of the water and watching as they carry out infants that died in the superdome.  It's also surreal to watch people walking along the freeways trying to leave the city.  Last night I was watching the world news, and they were showing military trucks pulling up to hospitals to block the entrance of looters.  The footage of the devastation is starting to look more and more like a Roland Emerich film.  I can't begin to even imagine what it must be like for the citizens.

I will say however (here comes the politics) that I'm extremely disappointed by the federal government's lack of help in the issue.  The only help that the people are getting is from the Red Cross, and donations from other people.  People are then forced to looting, which I would not be above if my child was sick/starving in this type of situatuion.  There isn't nearly enough national guard in the city due to the fact that they are short handed.  One estimate I read said that 1/3 of Louisiana's national guard is currently in Iraq.

Now, I know that people are going to say that it takes time for the government to put in place a plan for assitance.  That's to be expected, but it has already been nearly a week.  They knew what the storm was going to be like before it hit New Orleans and now here we are with people dropping like flies with NO assitance on the way from the government.  It makes me absolutely sick.  We have so much money pouring into Iraq and yet we can't even help OUR OWN PEOPLE in a situation like this.

And, to make things worse, we have the head of FEMA blaming the residents!

Then, we have the gas prices.  I paid 3.45 for regular gas yesterday and had to wait in line for 20 minutes to do so.  The cashier said they were almost out and that it would be 10-14 days before any of the stores would receive another shipment.  So here we are in a country that relies so heavily on gasoline, yet no alternatives are in place.  The government won't even give you a decent incentive for buying a hybrid car!  Nevermind the fact that gas was already 2.50 a gallon BEFORE Katrina!  Now, I know I'm going to p**s some people off by saying this, but you know that someone is lining their pockets with the cash they are making off of the high gas prices.  Nevermind the fact that we have already p**sed off Venezuela, and if I'm not mistaken they account for 18% of our oil.

Ash, you brought up a good point about nuclear disaster/attack.  I honestly feel that our government, the way it currently is, could not possibly handle such an attack.  If it is taking this long just to get help to the victims of Katrina, just imagine what it would be like if a nuclear disaster were to happen.  




I do want everyone to know that I'm not trying to flame.  I'm just stating my opinion on the situation, so do not get upset by my views.  Thanks.

[ulthar]

Couple of quick points; I won't be turning this into a political war or flamewar, but just wanted to mention some things.

Skaboi wrote:
>
> What happened in New Orleans is without a doubt one of the
> worst results of a hurricane in years.  I'm pretty sure that
> Katrina has actually done more damage than Hugo did back in the
> early 90s.

No doubt.  Hugo was a baby compared to Katrina.  What was odd about Hugo was how long it remained hurricane strength AFTER landfall; this caused regions not prepared (reasonably) for hurricane conditions to find themselves in just that.  But, Hugo was nowhere near as big and powerful as either Andrew or Katrina.

The force of wind goes as the CUBE of the windspeed.  So, there is a HUGE difference between 150 mph Cat 4 and 160 mph Cat 5.  There's also a big difference in the amount of rain.

But as I understand it, the real culprit here is the breach in the levie to Lake Ponchertrain (sp?).  As I posted yesterday, these issues have been known for 40 years, and one COULD make the arguement that at least some of the secondary damage was preventable.

>
> It's terrible watching the various citizens having to round up
> the dead bodies out of the water and watching as they carry out
> infants that died in the superdome.  It's also surreal to watch
> people walking along the freeways trying to leave the city.
> Last night I was watching the world news, and they were showing
> military trucks pulling up to hospitals to block the entrance
> of looters.  The footage of the devastation is starting to look
> more and more like a Roland Emerich film.  I can't begin to
> even imagine what it must be like for the citizens.

Interestingly, I recently read a book called "Day One: Hiroshima Before and After."  This is reminiscent of the first few days after the bombing.  Survivors were in a surrealistic dream; being in those conditions (everything around you destroyed, people dying in front of you) is just beyond our experience.  Thankfully.

>
> I will say however (here comes the politics) that I'm extremely
> disappointed by the federal government's lack of help in the
> issue.  The only help that the people are getting is from the
> Red Cross, and donations from other people.  

I have to disagree with this.  I think PART of what is going on is that the media is showing the sensational stuff.  People are getting aid, and getting assistance.  The Fed *IS* responding, but in point of fact, this may help show some people the folly of relying on the Fed for their survival.  

My wife told me last night that she saw some footage of people handing out bottled water; it was so chaotic, and people were acting so violent that she was not surprised that the sick and infirm were not getting any.  In other words, the strong are acting selfish and people are not cooperating.

In a situation like this, your odds of survival multiply IMMENSELY if you cooperate.  Rather, we have pockets of people acting like "every man for themself" and some people are suffering because of it.  You couple that with in these locations there are no real leaders emerging.

Someone on the ground there needs to be saying "look, don't shoot at the helicopters that are coming to help us, and don't try to overwelm the water trucks.   If we do this orderly, organized, everybody gets what they need."

Really, go read Day One, and see the difference.  Personally, I think this is our selfish "me, me, me" society coming home to roost.

> People are then
> forced to looting, which I would not be above if my child was
> sick/starving in this type of situatuion.  

Nor would I, and I have no problem with people getting what food they can find.  But a lot of what I saw on TV was people stealing TV's and I heard of people breaking into cars to steal stereos.  That is not stealing for survival; that's being a butt-hole and making a bad situation worse.

> There isn't nearly
> enough national guard in the city due to the fact that they are
> short handed.  One estimate I read said that 1/3 of Louisiana's
> national guard is currently in Iraq.
>

Okay, now this is pure crap.  I've heard ex-guardsman and military make comment on this, and the truth of the matter is that the guardsman in Iraq are not the ones trained/equipped for handling this type of situation.  They are infantry, whereas in NO they need more support units.  There's tens of thousands of guard already there, and there's only tens of thousands of people trapped.  What do you want, a guardsman PER victim?  That's not efficient, nor would it be effective.

This is FUD and is really an opportunistic tangent used by some to throw blame.  Be careful who you listen to.

>  with NO
> assitance on the way from the government.  

Again, NOT TRUE.  I don't think it is fair to say "NO assistance."  I've seen, and heard, of plenty of assistance.  It may not be to the level you, or those on the ground, would like, and maybe that is a fair statement.  But to say "NO" is not realistic.  FEMA is THERE, RIGHT NOW.  The Army Corp of Engineers is THERE, RIGHT NOW.  HS (right or wrong, good or bad) is THERE, RIGHT NOW.

>We have so much money pouring into Iraq and
> yet we can't even help OUR OWN PEOPLE in a situation like this.
>

Two very different things.  Iraq took 14 months to plan and stage.  This began LESS than 1 week ago.  You disagree with the war in Iraq?  Fine; more power to you.  But (a) the US Military is manned and equipped to fight at least four separate 'wars,' so while the war in Iraq may be taking some resources FROM OTHER AREAS OF GOV'T (I don't know this, but I am speculating), our military remains fully capable to deploy to other areas.  Again, don't believe the FUD.

(b) The money being spent in Iraq was committed LONG before this happened.  Congress controls the spending of Federal money, and Congress has allocated xyz for the war.  Contingency funds for emergencies are not being used for Iraq, and FEMA has a pretty healthy budget, too.
 
>
> Then, we have the gas prices.  I paid 3.45 for regular gas
> yesterday and had to wait in line for 20 minutes to do so.

The recent (pre Katrina) gas price increases have been caused by one thing: futures speculators creating a perceived panic in the supply.  Steve Forbes (a fairly knowledgeable man on such things) has recently written a piece outlining this.  His thesis was that the price of gas has been manipulated away from the basic laws of supply and demand; that is, it is overpriced given the demand, being driven upward by the fact that some speculators have said supply is going down.  He argued that within a year, the price would come down.

Now, post Katrina, this panic is increased by a REAL, but TEMPORARY, reduction in distribution due to the 30,000,000 gallons per day lost on taking four key refineries offline.  It is still the panic, the PERCEPTION that we are in crisis that is causing the 'crisis.'  As soon as 1 or 2 of those NO refineries come back online (as early as 2 weeks) and people realize we are not in Road Warrior mode, things will stabilize.

Major pipelines out of the gulf were cut; but two of them have already been repaired (in like 3 days!!!!! that ain't bad). This is already bringing relief.  In SC, we got down to 25%; today, it's supposed to be back to 50%.  That sounds like a return to 'normal.' to me.  It may still take a few weeks, but it ain't the end of the world.


> The
> cashier said they were almost out and that it would be 10-14
> days before any of the stores would receive another shipment.

I'm sure that cashier would like to be INFORMED that one of the refineries is expected to be back online within two weeks.  Also, he/she may like to know that two major pipelines have already been repaired, and that damage to the oil infrastructure is not as bad as originally thought.  The initial damage estimates were 'conservative,' prossibly so as to not get hopes up that things would be fixed BEFORE they could be.
 
> So here we are in a country that relies so heavily on gasoline,
> yet no alternatives are in place.  The government won't even
> give you a decent incentive for buying a hybrid car!

Why should the government give you any incentive (or punishment for that matter) to own the car of your choice?  Hybrids are not the panacea many think they are. At current growth levels, if you replaced EVERY car in the US with hybrids, gas consumption would be back to today's level within six years.  Hybrids are not a long term solution, but actually solving problems does not seem to be a factor for people suggesting such things.

The problem is distribution; our refineries operate at 98+%; according to petrochemical experts and engineers in the industry, they need to be at about 70%.  This gives 'margin for error.'  The building of new refineries have been blocked for about 20 years, and THAT is why we have a distribution problem NOW.

Also, one other point.  The EPA mandates over 60 different formulations of gasoline.  Especially NOW, in the wake of Katrina (with lowered capacity in our distribution system), they COULD be easing those restrictions and allow gasoline to go where it is needed.  Oh wait, they ARE doing that.  So, that's another thing the Fed is doing to try to help this situation.  But, having so many formulations is part of what has weakened our system; KISS is the way to go for something so important.


>  Nevermind
> the fact that gas was already 2.50 a gallon BEFORE Katrina!

See above, the part about Forbes.

> Now, I know I'm going to p**s some people off by saying this,
> but you know that someone is lining their pockets with the cash
> they are making off of the high gas prices.

BS.  Pure. Unadulterated. B.S. No one is "lining their pockets" on a natural disaster.  Show me some profit and loss sheets from someone whose profits INCREASED during the week of Katrina, and you can call me misinformed.  But until then, this unsubstantiated accusation detracts from the real issues.

That's all I have for now.  Thanks for the opportunity to express my view.

[odinn7]

I don't want to get too involved in this topic but I just wanted to say...Kudos to my state (PA) who is sending 2500 guardsmen down there starting tomorrow.

"...people realize we are not in Road Warrior mode..."

DAMN! And I just cut up my leather jacket, cut the barrel off my shotgun, trained my dog to come to the new name of "dog", affixed fuel tanks to the hatch on my Geo Metro, styled my daughters hair like the feral kid...all for naught.

[ulthar]

Now, I DO find this frustrating:  

I just heard of a guy in Tampa who own apartments who has 8 vacant units he is willing to allow victims to use.  He has gone to the local media and the 'shunned him.'  He even went to the Mayor's office, and the did not help.  He is very upset that those that need shelter are not getting the word the he has shelter available.

To add insult to injury, there is a similar lady in (iirc) Dallas.  She likewise was upset that her offer of the use of her property is not being siezed.

Perhaps this is because this is not the "government" helping the victims?  Do we, as a society, have such a mind-set that aid HAS to come from the gov't?  Well, in the words of the dude from Tampa, "we ARE the governement."

[trekgeezer]

Here is a website that let's you post your location if you have some place for the displaced and then match you up with someone that needs a place to stay.

http://www.katrinashelter.com

[Derf]

I know this is slightly off the main topic here, but speaking of the perceived gas crisis, I found this article about Canada's ability to supply all of North America with oil in the neighborhood of $40/barrel for the next 50 years, with no need for more foreign (i.e.--Middle Eastern or Venezuelan) oil.

The same type of perceived crisis led to the inflated gas prices and "shortages" of the '70s. Yes, we need to develop alternatives to petroleum-based fuels, but I do wish these sensationalized reports could be stopped, preferably by common sense.

[Jamtoy]

My wife and I grew up in that area.  She was born in New Orleans, I was born in Hammond Louisiana, just north of the lake.  We lived in that area of Louisiana for most of our lives. (over 30 years for each of us).  We moved to Texas about 5 years ago.

When we feard that the storm was heading toward our childhood homes, we knew it was going to be bad.  But nothing prepared me for how the images would effect me.

The road where I went to school, flooded.
The bridges that I crossed dozens of times, broken apart.
The Red Lobster where Andrea and I had our first date, flooded
The Red Lobster in Biloxi were we went on our Honeymoon over 10 years ago, now just a slab of concrete.

I tried to prepare my wife for the fact that New Orleans, her home,  would never be the same as she remembered it.  She still tears-up when she sees a road or building she remembers.  But truth is, so do I.

But I cry more over the human loss now.  The dead just laying in the street reminds me of pictures I have seen from 3rd world countries.  Last night, a reporter mention to a coworker that he had some things to do "when we get back to the states."  He stopped in his thought as he realized he had never left America.

Then there is the lawless situation.  I find myself ashamed at time to say I am from that area, but I don't know first hand what is going on down there.  That does not justify the acts of some of the people though.  I hope that it is nearing an end and we can get back to the important job of getting the people out and rebuilding the city, if it ever will be rebuilt.  

I could go into all the ideas I have for why the people are doing what they do, but that would not help the matter here.  What would help is drawing together with those who want to do good in this terrible situation.  

Our families and friends left the city before the storm hit, they are all fine.  Now, we just wait for when we can all go Home.

John Morgan
__________________________________________

[ulthar]

Thanks, trek; I forwarded that to the radio program on which I heard that guy from Tampa.

[Andrew]

At least a relief convoy finally reached the area.  I know that the logistics must have been hard, but that did take a bit longer than expected.

The most troubling thing, in my mind, was the sudden reverting to mobs. Are many people just animals, held in check by the controls that society has put in place?  (Police, courts, jail, etc.)  I had always wondered how a "modern" country would look under brutal conditions and the answer is not heartening.

Me, if I found someone in a disaster zone raping women or randomly attacking people, pretty much being a threat to others, would probably shoot them in the head and not look back.

This also reminds me to check on my emergency pack stuff.  Medical kit, MREs, water micro-filter and purification tablets, flashlight, etc.  I should be doing a go over of that gear every year.

And I am going to buy that Katadyn filter kit one of these days.  I've only been thinking about one for years now.

[ulthar]

Andrew wrote:

> At least a relief convoy finally reached the area.  I know that
> the logistics must have been hard, but that did take a bit
> longer than expected.
>

I thought about this yesterday when I first heard about, then saw images of, those trucks rolling into NO.  They arrived Friday morning.

On Thursday, everyone (ie, the media) was complaining that nothing was being done.  However, those trucks, that HUGE convoy HAD to have been on the road and making quite an impression.  They did not just materialize in New Orleans Friday morning.

So: why no video of them on the road, heading down there, along with a message "we know it's not there yet, but help IS on the way."  I again assert that the newsies were fueling this "nothing is happening" rant.

[odinn7]

People smirk at me because of the "arsenal" I have locked up in my house. I joke that it's for when civilization falls apart. Hell, we've all just seen it...doubt they will laugh anymore. I agree with Andrew in that if I was in a situation like this and I saw people doing what they were doing, I'd have no moral problem with putting them down. People like that aren't fit to breathe the same air as decent people. It really was sad to see that along with all the devastation, it took almost no time for the mobs to break out and start their crap. It really speaks alot about human nature in general.

[Andrew]

ulthar wrote:

> So: why no video of them on the road, heading down there, along
> with a message "we know it's not there yet, but help IS on the
> way."  I again assert that the newsies were fueling this
> "nothing is happening" rant.

Well, the news wants people to watch.  Things have to be sensational, so they play things up.  The guy in New Orleans right now is working that angle hard.  "Look, these people are living in the street."  Well, yes, there were tens of thousands of people still in the city when the hurricane hit.  Getting all of them out is a massive undertaking.  Not to mention when you are pulling them off rooftops in the middle of flooded sections.

I believe very much that we rely too much on emergency services to fix everything when things go wrong.  People need to learn self reliance.  If you can do it, have a plan and do it.  Were I stuck in New Orleans with my family (assuming I had not left when the storm was coming), I would have carried them to Baton Rouge on my back if need be.  So long as I am getting water and some food, doing 20 miles in a day is no problem.  Travel at night to conserve your energy.  All that.  Must be from being a country boy or something.  I just do not understand sitting around, pointing at a problem, and screaming for someone to fix it.

Also, if everyone did this, the emergency services could concentrate on those who need the help.  Sick, elderly, children, and the injured.

[Amanda]

It's disheartening that in a time like this, people can't rely on one another.  I have to admit, I've been thinking a lot lately about what I would do if I were down there.  I'm in East Texas, so we've been getting quite a flood of  folks from Louisiana and Mississippi, and I see people here really trying to help them out.  (Of course, we have more than our fair share of people moaning and grumping about how this is going to kill our economy and how putting those kids into our schools isn't fair....it's such a BURDEN - makes me want to slap the crap outta them).  It just makes me wonder why, the people left in New Orleans and other locations that were devastated by this storm, they can't try and do ANYTHING to help their own situation.  It may sound very stupid of me to say this, but really, if I were trapped there, I would be taking steps to at least try and keep my own personal area as sanitary as possible.  I'd scrounge garbage bags, ziploc bags, whatever.  It just seems that when catastophe strikes, people revert to being animals in every sense of the word.  

I know it's tempting to just give into panic and despair, but you can't.  You have to try and help yourself, you cannot expect someone to do it for you.  I'm horrified that people are being raped, rescue helicopters are being shot at, people driving around in pickups, loaded to the teeth and just shooting randomly.  People are looting for TV's and other completely useless s**t and it just boggles my mind.  

I agree with you, these people that are raping and hurting others, shoot them.  I'd have no issue with it whatsoever.